Make all damage shields in game scale with health.

Erondil

Domander wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Summary of this thread: Sorcerers defending their shield.

I mean..really...
Take a seat, sit back and think objective. Why on earth defence and offence should share same pool that can be stacked through hell?(this applies for dodge rolling also) Why? I really fail to understand. Is this really perfect design for your perspective?
I also can not decide whether you are so naive and blind to miss the point or you just ignore everything and defend this error of mechanics for all costs with lots of game of words and such.

If you complain about 15k hits from various sources, then the right thing to do is to adjust damage values and power stacking after the shield/dodge issue is done. And then maybe slightly more health preferably.
With this way, all classes will become equal in terms of CHOICES to going defensive or offensive or mixed. And give them nightblades a class shield already.

Do you think there is only sorcs who needs shields scaling on magicka? What about the magicka NB who has no class shield/heal? Read my other post.
Stamina has equally a lot of advantages stacking all in stamina like.. better vigor/rally (knowing that vigor is the best no class-heal in the game) more roll dodge and higher damages, so they have at the same time offence and defence stacking stamina. You cry because magicka spec dont have to run with 25+k health while stamina dont need it either. Seems legit.

Who's crying?

So you don't think a magicka nightblade with more health than magicka would benefit from things scaling with health?

Interesting.

Its not my point. Yes, magicka nightblade would benefit from stacking health, but the problem is that they will have to stack health -> magicka burst nb (full magicka/spell dmg) dead (knowing it has already been nerfed quite a lot in 1.6). On the other hand, a stamina nb will still be able to stack stamina without a look on his hp because his heals and dodgeroll depend of his main ressource. More than that, if he wants he can use shields which will be as effective as for a magicka build because it stacks on health.
So if you want to make all shields scaling on health, make dodgeroll using health or its not fair.

Anyway this thread is just a big QQ fest agaisnt hardened ward and sorc shieldstack, OP didnt even know that other classes can be magicka dps.

exiledtyrant

ToRelax wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Shields, stealth, and dodge chance are toxic defenses. They should have given everyone a way to heal and mitigate without adding in such hard counter designs. If anything cast time skills could have seen damage shields sparsely throughout morphs. I could definitely see a damage shield popped while healing ritual is being cast for example as a morph. To force a class to be so feast or famine defensively is no fun in my opinion. If sorcerers had other actual options I don't think number of people defending shields be so high.

I'm a fan of things like blockers ( absorbs x amount of hits), counter moves, reflects, high mitigation window skills etc. They always have things that the person defending can do and the person attacking can do without feeling cheap.

I see your point. I agree that these counters are hard to balance, I personally like them but to each his own. But how can you be okay with reflects then? That's like the ultimate hard counter...

I like reflects because they are usually balanced one of three ways: disable the person from doing much else, are high cost so they can't be spammed, or have abilities that can't be reflected. Reflects are a deterrent. They help control the pace of the fight without being overly dominant. Usually some form or the the other of damage gets through so you are always making headway and the defender can't just rely on reflects. If you counter them someone doesn't automatically explode and there are enough soft counters that there should be something in your kit to get around them. If a reflect cannot be countered you just wait it out. With the proper cost and duration reflects remain balanced. I have never come across a templar or dk where I thought that the fight was completely out of my hands because i didn't have a way to counter reflect or that they were helpless because I did counter reflects.

iseko

pkb16_ESO2 wrote: »

In my opinion it would be a real good solution. Remove the cyro shield debuff and scale shield of health would buff temps a bit (what is nessesary) and maybe bring down sorc to earth.

There should be an Option to ignore People in the Forum because i cant read this stupid "Sorc Lobby" anymore.
They prevent a realistic Discusion about these balance issues.

Sorcs were pretty bad in 1.5

Currently there is 1 build and one build only that is pretty good but like everything -> most people have learned to counter it.

The problem for sorcs still is that if you nerf one skill (cryst frags, vel curse, hardened ward or ball of light) you pretty much nerf the entire class. Right now it all fits togheter well as a build (with hardened ward and BoL at the center). Take away one piece and the entire build falls apart. Sorcs dont have a viable alternative that I know of. Their class skills are pretty ***. Negate got nerfed. Their ultimates are pretty much crap.

Nerf hardened ward but give them some decent other abilities in return.

And even without all the above I dont get all the QQ. It's not like sorcs are steamrolling 1v24 like some DK's did in the old days. Or the sap tanks of 1.5. Sorcs are annoying kiters. Kiters are annoying by definition. The other classes still have more steamroll potential then sorcs.

Varicite

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

simply no. The shields are fine, the only problem there really is is the shield stacking, when thats fixed, if its fixed, no one will have a problem with damage shields.

honestly, i dont get peoples problem with damage shields like ward, the shield stacking and such have been in the game since launch, yet no one said things then. What i think is that people want easy kills. get it in your head that sometimes your going to run into someone that is better than you, and they are going to kill you. Its not the game or spells in question, its that you simply are not as skilled a gamer as your PK'er

1) They aren't going to "fix" damage shield stacking, because they don't see it as an issue.

2) People have been complaining about this literally since Early Access, if not before. Are you new here?

Varicite

Ezareth wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

If every shields scale on hp :
1) You make stamina build even stronger because shields will be as viable for them as for magicka builds. As defence, a stamina player can already dodge roll a lot (endlessly if he manages well) + the best selfheal that is not a class heal scales on stamina : vigor. Atm healing ward heal is very strong but since it depends of the shield... it wont be for a magicka dps with heal scaled shield.
"Magicka builds would already have enough defence with better heals" wrong : some class hasnt really class flash heals (sorc and nb), and so the best heal they have access to is vigor.

2) You kill any kind of magicka high burst build : a magicka nb (for example) who stacks magicka as much as possible has 0 defence : no good heal (the best is from healingward but if it scales on health... ***) no good shields, or at least as good as for a stamina user and 0 armor/spell resist because he wears light armor. On the other hand, a stamina nb that stacks stamina as much as possible will have : endless rolldodge (or at least rolldodge for a very long time) which is almost invulnerability period, a very good heal (vigor), as good shields as a magicka nb (harness and healing ward) and a decent amount of armor/spell resist because he uses medium armor. A magicka user will have to stack health while a stamina one will be able to stack stamina.
Then, who will still play magicka pvp-dps?

They don't care.

They want to CoD 1-shot people with their bows. These are the people we're arguing against.

And you are being completely dismissive to anybody who doesn't agree w/ you.

Shields are only a part of a magicka users primary defense and you know this as well as anybody. Why would you even say this if not to be intentionally misleading in your argument?

Just like another thread where you compare a stamina build using Dodge roll AND VIGOR to a Sorc just standing there spamming shields and acting like dodge roll by itself is a much stronger mechanic.

Who do you think is stupid enough to not see through this kind of stuff?

Draehl

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

Point is, whether you want to believe it or not, each class is best suited after its namesake. dragonknights are great tanks, templars are great healers, sorcerers are great magicka casters, nightblades are great assassins. Completely balancing the classes would make the game boring, the classes need variety and differences, they need different power levels. Stop getting mad that someone killed you and strive to get better at the game.

True, though some specs are so obviously intended based on the skills/passives in the game yet aren't as viable as many others. I rolled a magicka NB at launch- it seems obvious an intended playstyle was sustained damage/offheals what with all the DoTs, Dark Shades, Funnel Health, Refreshing Path, etc. and a natural successor for someone who played DoT caster/healer hybrids in past games. I made my decision in good faith yet this type of build is still weak over a year past launch. I'm not taking a burst build just because it's meta- anyone who regularly plays attrition builds will tell you the idea of doing this is unacceptable. Not all of us are lemmings who automatically flock to the most effective build regardless of playstyle, but that doesn't mean we're inept <insert casual blah blah insult here> and that we don't have the know-how to be incredibly effective. We're just not going to sell our soul to do it.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I just want to make the point that if a playstyle is reasonably obvious based on the tools a class has available it should be balanced and receive the same attention that the 'archetypical' role does. I don't think anyone expects to play a ranged nuker DK, but an offtank style short ranged AoE mage should be just as viable as a DK tank is. Look at their skills. There's no reason to think otherwise.

LtCrunch

Z

Varicite wrote: »

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

simply no. The shields are fine, the only problem there really is is the shield stacking, when thats fixed, if its fixed, no one will have a problem with damage shields.

honestly, i dont get peoples problem with damage shields like ward, the shield stacking and such have been in the game since launch, yet no one said things then. What i think is that people want easy kills. get it in your head that sometimes your going to run into someone that is better than you, and they are going to kill you. Its not the game or spells in question, its that you simply are not as skilled a gamer as your PK'er

1) They aren't going to "fix" damage shield stacking, because they don't see it as an issue.

2) People have been complaining about this literally since Early Access, if not before. Are you new here?

People didn't start complaining about damage shields until update 6 it and allowed them to scale much, much higher. Sure there may have been a small group that did but the majority didn't care until softcaps were removed.

Erondil

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

If every shields scale on hp :
1) You make stamina build even stronger because shields will be as viable for them as for magicka builds. As defence, a stamina player can already dodge roll a lot (endlessly if he manages well) + the best selfheal that is not a class heal scales on stamina : vigor. Atm healing ward heal is very strong but since it depends of the shield... it wont be for a magicka dps with heal scaled shield.
"Magicka builds would already have enough defence with better heals" wrong : some class hasnt really class flash heals (sorc and nb), and so the best heal they have access to is vigor.

2) You kill any kind of magicka high burst build : a magicka nb (for example) who stacks magicka as much as possible has 0 defence : no good heal (the best is from healingward but if it scales on health... ***) no good shields, or at least as good as for a stamina user and 0 armor/spell resist because he wears light armor. On the other hand, a stamina nb that stacks stamina as much as possible will have : endless rolldodge (or at least rolldodge for a very long time) which is almost invulnerability period, a very good heal (vigor), as good shields as a magicka nb (harness and healing ward) and a decent amount of armor/spell resist because he uses medium armor. A magicka user will have to stack health while a stamina one will be able to stack stamina.
Then, who will still play magicka pvp-dps?

They don't care.

They want to CoD 1-shot people with their bows. These are the people we're arguing against.

And you are being completely dismissive to anybody who doesn't agree w/ you.

Shields are only a part of a magicka users primary defense and you know this as well as anybody. Why would you even say this if not to be intentionally misleading in your argument?

Just like another thread where you compare a stamina build using Dodge roll AND VIGOR to a Sorc just standing there spamming shields and acting like dodge roll by itself is a much stronger mechanic.

Who do you think is stupid enough to not see through this kind of stuff?

What are other parts? Not mitigation for sure since light armor gives 3* less than medium. Heals? Vigor> all except bol but bol is a templar heal and so not usable by magicka sorcs, dk or nb. Dodge chances? The only dodge skill sorcs templars or dk can use is the one from medium armor and so is better for stamina players. Whats next? Give true examples plz, not "better heals, better utilitys etc" which is totally wrong

Cody

and it turns into a "nerf sorc " thread.

what a shame.

LtCrunch

Cody wrote: »

and it turns into a "nerf sorc " thread.

what a shame.

It was essentially a nerf sorc thread to begin with. Nobody complains about Whitestrake's scaling off of your max stamina xD

pkb16_ESO2

iseko wrote: »

pkb16_ESO2 wrote: »

In my opinion it would be a real good solution. Remove the cyro shield debuff and scale shield of health would buff temps a bit (what is nessesary) and maybe bring down sorc to earth.

There should be an Option to ignore People in the Forum because i cant read this stupid "Sorc Lobby" anymore.
They prevent a realistic Discusion about these balance issues.

Sorcs were pretty bad in 1.5

Currently there is 1 build and one build only that is pretty good but like everything -> most people have learned to counter it.

The problem for sorcs still is that if you nerf one skill (cryst frags, vel curse, hardened ward or ball of light) you pretty much nerf the entire class. Right now it all fits togheter well as a build (with hardened ward and BoL at the center). Take away one piece and the entire build falls apart. Sorcs dont have a viable alternative that I know of. Their class skills are pretty ***. Negate got nerfed. Their ultimates are pretty much crap.

Nerf hardened ward but give them some decent other abilities in return.

And even without all the above I dont get all the QQ. It's not like sorcs are steamrolling 1v24 like some DK's did in the old days. Or the sap tanks of 1.5. Sorcs are annoying kiters. Kiters are annoying by definition. The other classes still have more steamroll potential then sorcs.

a good example why i dont like those sorc lobby postings. Just every thing wrong what you said.
1 build... well very similar builds and sure only magika builds, but not less diversity then lets say a stamblade ok stam dk.
"most people have learned to counter it^^" LOL....
Dks where OP per1.5. true but now sorcs are. 1v1 sorcs are gods+ they can allway choose where and how to fight.
The point of the OP is a good solution because it helps to avoid the extrem Min/maxing and you have to choose if play glascannon or more Defensive and you dont get both.

Soris

Erondil wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Summary of this thread: Sorcerers defending their shield.

I mean..really...
Take a seat, sit back and think objective. Why on earth defence and offence should share same pool that can be stacked through hell?(this applies for dodge rolling also) Why? I really fail to understand. Is this really perfect design for your perspective?
I also can not decide whether you are so naive and blind to miss the point or you just ignore everything and defend this error of mechanics for all costs with lots of game of words and such.

If you complain about 15k hits from various sources, then the right thing to do is to adjust damage values and power stacking after the shield/dodge issue is done. And then maybe slightly more health preferably.
With this way, all classes will become equal in terms of CHOICES to going defensive or offensive or mixed. And give them nightblades a class shield already.

Do you think there is only sorcs who needs shields scaling on magicka? What about the magicka NB who has no class shield/heal? Read my other post.
Stamina has equally a lot of advantages stacking all in stamina like.. better vigor/rally (knowing that vigor is the best no class-heal in the game) more roll dodge and higher damages, so they have at the same time offence and defence stacking stamina. You cry because magicka spec dont have to run with 25+k health while stamina dont need it either. Seems legit.

Do you even read?

Varicite

Erondil wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

If every shields scale on hp :
1) You make stamina build even stronger because shields will be as viable for them as for magicka builds. As defence, a stamina player can already dodge roll a lot (endlessly if he manages well) + the best selfheal that is not a class heal scales on stamina : vigor. Atm healing ward heal is very strong but since it depends of the shield... it wont be for a magicka dps with heal scaled shield.
"Magicka builds would already have enough defence with better heals" wrong : some class hasnt really class flash heals (sorc and nb), and so the best heal they have access to is vigor.

2) You kill any kind of magicka high burst build : a magicka nb (for example) who stacks magicka as much as possible has 0 defence : no good heal (the best is from healingward but if it scales on health... ***) no good shields, or at least as good as for a stamina user and 0 armor/spell resist because he wears light armor. On the other hand, a stamina nb that stacks stamina as much as possible will have : endless rolldodge (or at least rolldodge for a very long time) which is almost invulnerability period, a very good heal (vigor), as good shields as a magicka nb (harness and healing ward) and a decent amount of armor/spell resist because he uses medium armor. A magicka user will have to stack health while a stamina one will be able to stack stamina.
Then, who will still play magicka pvp-dps?

They don't care.

They want to CoD 1-shot people with their bows. These are the people we're arguing against.

And you are being completely dismissive to anybody who doesn't agree w/ you.

Shields are only a part of a magicka users primary defense and you know this as well as anybody. Why would you even say this if not to be intentionally misleading in your argument?

Just like another thread where you compare a stamina build using Dodge roll AND VIGOR to a Sorc just standing there spamming shields and acting like dodge roll by itself is a much stronger mechanic.

Who do you think is stupid enough to not see through this kind of stuff?

What are other parts? Not mitigation for sure since light armor gives 3* less than medium. Heals? Vigor> all except bol but bol is a templar heal and so not usable by magicka sorcs, dk or nb. Dodge chances? The only dodge skill sorcs templars or dk can use is the one from medium armor and so is better for stamina players. Whats next? Give true examples plz, not "better heals, better utilitys etc" which is totally wrong

Reflects, Heals, Teleports, Cleanses, and Shields.

Are these not all fueled by Magicka and able to be used by Magicka builds FAR more liberally than anyone else?

Erondil

Varicite wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

If every shields scale on hp :
1) You make stamina build even stronger because shields will be as viable for them as for magicka builds. As defence, a stamina player can already dodge roll a lot (endlessly if he manages well) + the best selfheal that is not a class heal scales on stamina : vigor. Atm healing ward heal is very strong but since it depends of the shield... it wont be for a magicka dps with heal scaled shield.
"Magicka builds would already have enough defence with better heals" wrong : some class hasnt really class flash heals (sorc and nb), and so the best heal they have access to is vigor.

2) You kill any kind of magicka high burst build : a magicka nb (for example) who stacks magicka as much as possible has 0 defence : no good heal (the best is from healingward but if it scales on health... ***) no good shields, or at least as good as for a stamina user and 0 armor/spell resist because he wears light armor. On the other hand, a stamina nb that stacks stamina as much as possible will have : endless rolldodge (or at least rolldodge for a very long time) which is almost invulnerability period, a very good heal (vigor), as good shields as a magicka nb (harness and healing ward) and a decent amount of armor/spell resist because he uses medium armor. A magicka user will have to stack health while a stamina one will be able to stack stamina.
Then, who will still play magicka pvp-dps?

They don't care.

They want to CoD 1-shot people with their bows. These are the people we're arguing against.

And you are being completely dismissive to anybody who doesn't agree w/ you.

Shields are only a part of a magicka users primary defense and you know this as well as anybody. Why would you even say this if not to be intentionally misleading in your argument?

Just like another thread where you compare a stamina build using Dodge roll AND VIGOR to a Sorc just standing there spamming shields and acting like dodge roll by itself is a much stronger mechanic.

Who do you think is stupid enough to not see through this kind of stuff?

What are other parts? Not mitigation for sure since light armor gives 3* less than medium. Heals? Vigor> all except bol but bol is a templar heal and so not usable by magicka sorcs, dk or nb. Dodge chances? The only dodge skill sorcs templars or dk can use is the one from medium armor and so is better for stamina players. Whats next? Give true examples plz, not "better heals, better utilitys etc" which is totally wrong

Reflects, Heals, Teleports, Cleanses, and Shields.

Are these not all fueled by Magicka and able to be used by Magicka builds FAR more liberally than anyone else?

omg... did you read me?
Heals : the best unlocked for all atm is healing ward but it depends off the shield strenght so if shields scales on heals... ***, vigor>> all.
Shields : it scales on health so *** for a magicka dps, as good for a magicka build than for a stamina one
reflect : the only one that use magicka is the dk one that others class cant use. On the other hand there is one for every stamin, better for stamina than magicka build because it uses stamina, spec that is in the 1h+s three.
Teleport is a sorc thing (I dont play sorc) and most of the best gapclosers of the game (ambush, invasion critical rush) are stamina based.
Plz come with real examples as I asked because atm youre talking ***

Domander

Erondil wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Summary of this thread: Sorcerers defending their shield.

I mean..really...
Take a seat, sit back and think objective. Why on earth defence and offence should share same pool that can be stacked through hell?(this applies for dodge rolling also) Why? I really fail to understand. Is this really perfect design for your perspective?
I also can not decide whether you are so naive and blind to miss the point or you just ignore everything and defend this error of mechanics for all costs with lots of game of words and such.

If you complain about 15k hits from various sources, then the right thing to do is to adjust damage values and power stacking after the shield/dodge issue is done. And then maybe slightly more health preferably.
With this way, all classes will become equal in terms of CHOICES to going defensive or offensive or mixed. And give them nightblades a class shield already.

Do you think there is only sorcs who needs shields scaling on magicka? What about the magicka NB who has no class shield/heal? Read my other post.
Stamina has equally a lot of advantages stacking all in stamina like.. better vigor/rally (knowing that vigor is the best no class-heal in the game) more roll dodge and higher damages, so they have at the same time offence and defence stacking stamina. You cry because magicka spec dont have to run with 25+k health while stamina dont need it either. Seems legit.

Who's crying?

So you don't think a magicka nightblade with more health than magicka would benefit from things scaling with health?

Interesting.

Its not my point. Yes, magicka nightblade would benefit from stacking health, but the problem is that they will have to stack health -> magicka burst nb (full magicka/spell dmg) dead (knowing it has already been nerfed quite a lot in 1.6). On the other hand, a stamina nb will still be able to stack stamina without a look on his hp because his heals and dodgeroll depend of his main ressource. More than that, if he wants he can use shields which will be as effective as for a magicka build because it stacks on health.
So if you want to make all shields scaling on health, make dodgeroll using health or its not fair.

Anyway this thread is just a big QQ fest agaisnt hardened ward and sorc shieldstack, OP didnt even know that other classes can be magicka dps.

The OP plays every class.

However, the point you're trying to make is about annulment I guess? Healing ward already scales with health (missing health) It also benefits from spell power.

but....oh woe is the nightblade/sorc/anyone that would need to choose between survival and damage. Stamina is another discussion.

ToRelax

Domander wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Summary of this thread: Sorcerers defending their shield.

I mean..really...
Take a seat, sit back and think objective. Why on earth defence and offence should share same pool that can be stacked through hell?(this applies for dodge rolling also) Why? I really fail to understand. Is this really perfect design for your perspective?
I also can not decide whether you are so naive and blind to miss the point or you just ignore everything and defend this error of mechanics for all costs with lots of game of words and such.

If you complain about 15k hits from various sources, then the right thing to do is to adjust damage values and power stacking after the shield/dodge issue is done. And then maybe slightly more health preferably.
With this way, all classes will become equal in terms of CHOICES to going defensive or offensive or mixed. And give them nightblades a class shield already.

Do you think there is only sorcs who needs shields scaling on magicka? What about the magicka NB who has no class shield/heal? Read my other post.
Stamina has equally a lot of advantages stacking all in stamina like.. better vigor/rally (knowing that vigor is the best no class-heal in the game) more roll dodge and higher damages, so they have at the same time offence and defence stacking stamina. You cry because magicka spec dont have to run with 25+k health while stamina dont need it either. Seems legit.

Who's crying?

So you don't think a magicka nightblade with more health than magicka would benefit from things scaling with health?

Interesting.

Its not my point. Yes, magicka nightblade would benefit from stacking health, but the problem is that they will have to stack health -> magicka burst nb (full magicka/spell dmg) dead (knowing it has already been nerfed quite a lot in 1.6). On the other hand, a stamina nb will still be able to stack stamina without a look on his hp because his heals and dodgeroll depend of his main ressource. More than that, if he wants he can use shields which will be as effective as for a magicka build because it stacks on health.
So if you want to make all shields scaling on health, make dodgeroll using health or its not fair.

Anyway this thread is just a big QQ fest agaisnt hardened ward and sorc shieldstack, OP didnt even know that other classes can be magicka dps.

The OP plays every class.

However, the point you're trying to make is about annulment I guess? Healing ward already scales with health (missing health) It also benefits from spell power.

but....oh woe is the nightblade/sorc/anyone that would need to choose between survival and damage. Stamina is another discussion.

Healing Ward scales with % missing health, max magicka and spell damage.
Dragon Blood is a heal that scales with missing health.
It's nice if you play all classes but it seems that isn't always enough .

Varicite

Erondil wrote: »

omg... did you read me?
Heals : the best unlocked for all atm is healing ward but it depends off the shield strenght so if shields scales on heals... ***, vigor>> all.

Vigor's existence does not suddenly make the Resto / Templar heals bad. And what I'm talking about is the current framework of the game, not make-believe land where all shields scale off of health.

Healing Ward is still awesome, especially if you're protecting it w/ a stacked shield. Rapid Regen / Mutagen are still effective for sustain when stacked w/ other sources.

You don't suddenly get to NOT heal yourself simply because stam users can also heal themselves too, for a MUCH more significant investment to unlock.

PS) Not once did I ever say that I agree w/ the OP that all shields need to scale w/ health, btw.

Erondil wrote: »

Shields : it scales on health so *** for a magicka dps, as good for a magicka build than for a stamina one

You are being remiss if you are suggesting that a stamina build can use shields, whether they scale off of health or magicka, w/ even close to the same proficiency as any Magicka build. It's not even a contest.

There's a reason that you don't see stamina builds spamming shields; it's WAY too costly for that to be practical.

And even the ones that scale off of health currently are still being put to good use. I'm certain that Templars didn't suddenly stop using Blazing Shield, DKs didn't stop suddenly using Igneous Shield. For a Magicka build, they are cheap and effective.

Erondil wrote: »

reflect : the only one that use magicka is the dk one that others class cant use.

Actually, Templar also gets a Magicka reflect, and BOTH the Templar and DK versions outclass the 1h&S one by a good margin. On top of that, having to resort to 1h&s to use a reflect immediately limits 50% of your potential weapon choices and forces you to stay on a particular bar (lower dps bar).

Erondil wrote: »

Teleport is a sorc thing (I dont play sorc) and most of the best gapclosers of the game (ambush, invasion critical rush) are stamina based.

Teleport is also a NB thing, as well. As well as Cloaking, when it works. I wasn't talking specifically about gap closers, which makes sense to give to the melee weapons.

Magicka doesn't generally rely on gap closers because the vast majority of abilities can hit you from 28+ meters away.

But the ONLY abilities that allow you to teleport away from a target are magicka-based.

Erondil wrote: »

Plz come with real examples as I asked because atm youre talking ***

I came w/ real examples, you just simply refuse to acknowledge that you can do more than just spam shields as a defense.

I see you forgot to mention Cleanse effects, as there aren't any of these that cost stamina and probably didn't suit your argument.

The fact is that while a Magicka build may not have access to ALL of the things that I listed simultaneously, they most definitely have access to at least a FEW of them at the same time.

To suggest that the ONLY defense that a Magicka user has is shields is ludicrous and patently false. And no amount of "omg but stam can do things now too" is going to make it so that Magicka users suddenly DON'T have access to these defensive measures.

Erondil

Varicite wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

omg... did you read me?
Heals : the best unlocked for all atm is healing ward but it depends off the shield strenght so if shields scales on heals... ***, vigor>> all.

Vigor's existence does not suddenly make the Resto / Templar heals bad. And what I'm talking about is the current framework of the game, not make-believe land where all shields scale off of health.

Healing Ward is still awesome, especially if you're protecting it w/ a stacked shield. Rapid Regen / Mutagen are still effective for sustain when stacked w/ other sources.

You don't suddenly get to NOT heal yourself simply because stam users can also heal themselves too, for a MUCH more significant investment to unlock.

PS) Not once did I ever say that I agree w/ the OP that all shields need to scale w/ health, btw.

Erondil wrote: »

Shields : it scales on health so *** for a magicka dps, as good for a magicka build than for a stamina one

You are being remiss if you are suggesting that a stamina build can use shields, whether they scale off of health or magicka, w/ even close to the same proficiency as any Magicka build. It's not even a contest.

There's a reason that you don't see stamina builds spamming shields; it's WAY too costly for that to be practical.

And even the ones that scale off of health currently are still being put to good use. I'm certain that Templars didn't suddenly stop using Blazing Shield, DKs didn't stop suddenly using Igneous Shield. For a Magicka build, they are cheap and effective.

Erondil wrote: »

reflect : the only one that use magicka is the dk one that others class cant use.

Actually, Templar also gets a Magicka reflect, and BOTH the Templar and DK versions outclass the 1h&S one by a good margin. On top of that, having to resort to 1h&s to use a reflect immediately limits 50% of your potential weapon choices and forces you to stay on a particular bar (lower dps bar).

Erondil wrote: »

Teleport is a sorc thing (I dont play sorc) and most of the best gapclosers of the game (ambush, invasion critical rush) are stamina based.

Teleport is also a NB thing, as well. As well as Cloaking, when it works. I wasn't talking specifically about gap closers, which makes sense to give to the melee weapons.

Magicka doesn't generally rely on gap closers because the vast majority of abilities can hit you from 28+ meters away.

But the ONLY abilities that allow you to teleport away from a target are magicka-based.

Erondil wrote: »

Plz come with real examples as I asked because atm youre talking ***

I came w/ real examples, you just simply refuse to acknowledge that you can do more than just spam shields as a defense.

I see you forgot to mention Cleanse effects, as there aren't any of these that cost stamina and probably didn't suit your argument.

The fact is that while a Magicka build may not have access to ALL of the things that I listed simultaneously, they most definitely have access to at least a FEW of them at the same time.

To suggest that the ONLY defense that a Magicka user has is shields is ludicrous and patently false. And no amount of "omg but stam can do things now too" is going to make it so that Magicka users suddenly DON'T have access to these defensive measures.

To be clear, I'm not talking about the current game balance but if zos makes shields scaling on health.
While healing ward is now very good as selfheal (the only one I rely on and its enough, as magicka melee nb), if it starts to stack on health the shield and the health at the end of this one will be quite low for who wants to get a decent damage. Others heals from restro arent designed and arent really good for your selfsurvivability. Rapid regen or mutagen are decent hot but is less good than rally. On the other hand, a stamina player who stacks stamina as much as he can will have a huge heal from vigor which is at the same time a huge hot, a good flash heal (to use between 2 roll dodges) if needed and aoe.
So yes, heals would be lacking for a non-templar magicka build if healing ward scales on health.

About shields, blazing shield really sucks now with new hp pools for a magicka DPS build and igneous shield seems most like used only (or almost) for the heal buff so I dont imagine the situation woth every shields stacking on health. I can see the point with hardened ward, it would seems fair for other classes and maybe improve the situation of stamina sorcs but not for healing ward or annulment that should be and are magicka reserved defences.

I dont share your opinion about reflect, all has their advantages and the sb one as.well (long duration, stun, very low cost...) Stamina players should need to use sb if they want a stamina reflect, but its almost impossible to be magicka DPS sorc or nb without a restro secondary to get a decent heal so... seems fair.

Teleport is also a nb thing but it can easily be used for a staminq spec because of the very low cost+ you cant really spam it. Its maybe not that used by them because they can already stack speed bost to have a huge mobility without it...As for gap closer, not to mention that magicka doesnt mean ranged and some magicka melee builds need gapclosers, which arent as good as the stamina ones.

I forgot cleanse true, because I dont think cleanse are really so important in this gamel, the templar's one is quite cheap even for a stamina spec and its not the kind of spell you will spam, so totally viable. Same for purge with the good morph, or dark cloak if you use it as cleanse.

Shields are still the main defence and by far the best defence for magicka dps spec exactly as dodgeroll is the main defence of stamina dps.
As I already said, if you want every shields to stack on health, then make roll dodge using health.

Tintinabula

Dodge roll is a one sec immunity..stop trying to compare it to a 20 second damage shield of 13K +..just stop..apples and watermelons.

Domander

ToRelax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Summary of this thread: Sorcerers defending their shield.

I mean..really...
Take a seat, sit back and think objective. Why on earth defence and offence should share same pool that can be stacked through hell?(this applies for dodge rolling also) Why? I really fail to understand. Is this really perfect design for your perspective?
I also can not decide whether you are so naive and blind to miss the point or you just ignore everything and defend this error of mechanics for all costs with lots of game of words and such.

If you complain about 15k hits from various sources, then the right thing to do is to adjust damage values and power stacking after the shield/dodge issue is done. And then maybe slightly more health preferably.
With this way, all classes will become equal in terms of CHOICES to going defensive or offensive or mixed. And give them nightblades a class shield already.

Do you think there is only sorcs who needs shields scaling on magicka? What about the magicka NB who has no class shield/heal? Read my other post.
Stamina has equally a lot of advantages stacking all in stamina like.. better vigor/rally (knowing that vigor is the best no class-heal in the game) more roll dodge and higher damages, so they have at the same time offence and defence stacking stamina. You cry because magicka spec dont have to run with 25+k health while stamina dont need it either. Seems legit.

Who's crying?

So you don't think a magicka nightblade with more health than magicka would benefit from things scaling with health?

Interesting.

Its not my point. Yes, magicka nightblade would benefit from stacking health, but the problem is that they will have to stack health -> magicka burst nb (full magicka/spell dmg) dead (knowing it has already been nerfed quite a lot in 1.6). On the other hand, a stamina nb will still be able to stack stamina without a look on his hp because his heals and dodgeroll depend of his main ressource. More than that, if he wants he can use shields which will be as effective as for a magicka build because it stacks on health.
So if you want to make all shields scaling on health, make dodgeroll using health or its not fair.

Anyway this thread is just a big QQ fest agaisnt hardened ward and sorc shieldstack, OP didnt even know that other classes can be magicka dps.

The OP plays every class.

However, the point you're trying to make is about annulment I guess? Healing ward already scales with health (missing health) It also benefits from spell power.

but....oh woe is the nightblade/sorc/anyone that would need to choose between survival and damage. Stamina is another discussion.

Healing Ward scales with % missing health, max magicka and spell damage.
Dragon Blood is a heal that scales with missing health.
It's nice if you play all classes but it seems that isn't always enough .

Yes, healing ward is also a heal, it should also scale with magicka. I count that spell as already scaling with health even it's "missing health". in terms of balance having less health will make this spell less efficient.


What the hell does dragon blood have to do with anything? Or your comment about classes?

LtCrunch

Tintinabula wrote: »

Dodge roll is a one sec immunity..stop trying to compare it to a 20 second damage shield of 13K +..just stop..apples and watermelons.

That damage shield goes down in one or two hits and requires a recast constantly, it has to be used as often if not more often than dodge roll does. Complete immunity is much, much more powerful.

Tintinabula

Brandalf wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

Dodge roll is a one sec immunity..stop trying to compare it to a 20 second damage shield of 13K +..just stop..apples and watermelons.

That damage shield goes down in one or two hits and requires a recast constantly, it has to be used as often if not more often than dodge roll does. Complete immunity is much, much more powerful.

Its not "complete" immunity though. What damage does your hardened ward NOT mitigate? And also we cannot cast or shoot or swing a weapon while rolling..what can you cast while you watch your hardened ward go down?...everything.

Domander

Updated OP, I don't think I'm missing any... but let me know if I am.

LtCrunch

Tintinabula wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

Dodge roll is a one sec immunity..stop trying to compare it to a 20 second damage shield of 13K +..just stop..apples and watermelons.

That damage shield goes down in one or two hits and requires a recast constantly, it has to be used as often if not more often than dodge roll does. Complete immunity is much, much more powerful.

Its not "complete" immunity though. What damage does your hardened ward NOT mitigate? And also we cannot cast or shoot or swing a weapon while rolling..what can you cast while you watch your hardened ward go down?...everything.

Please list any targeted skill that hits you during dodge roll immunity, Just one. If one wants to maintain hardened ward that's all they're going to be casting, you can't cast multiple abilities at the same time. So both dodge roll and hardened ward have that same limitation. You can't do anything else if you want to maintain eitther of them, however dodge roll makes you immune to everything; or at least everything that is going to be doing any significant damage to you.

Varicite

Brandalf wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

Dodge roll is a one sec immunity..stop trying to compare it to a 20 second damage shield of 13K +..just stop..apples and watermelons.

That damage shield goes down in one or two hits and requires a recast constantly, it has to be used as often if not more often than dodge roll does. Complete immunity is much, much more powerful.

Its not "complete" immunity though. What damage does your hardened ward NOT mitigate? And also we cannot cast or shoot or swing a weapon while rolling..what can you cast while you watch your hardened ward go down?...everything.

Please list any targeted skill that hits you during dodge roll immunity, Just one. If one wants to maintain hardened ward that's all they're going to be casting, you can't cast multiple abilities at the same time. So both dodge roll and hardened ward have that same limitation. You can't do anything else if you want to maintain eitther of them, however dodge roll makes you immune to everything; or at least everything that is going to be doing any significant damage to you.

Lava Whip, Concealed Weapon, and Daedric Curse?

Tintinabula

Brandalf wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

Dodge roll is a one sec immunity..stop trying to compare it to a 20 second damage shield of 13K +..just stop..apples and watermelons.

That damage shield goes down in one or two hits and requires a recast constantly, it has to be used as often if not more often than dodge roll does. Complete immunity is much, much more powerful.

Its not "complete" immunity though. What damage does your hardened ward NOT mitigate? And also we cannot cast or shoot or swing a weapon while rolling..what can you cast while you watch your hardened ward go down?...everything.

Please list any targeted skill that hits you during dodge roll immunity, Just one. If one wants to maintain hardened ward that's all they're going to be casting, you can't cast multiple abilities at the same time. So both dodge roll and hardened ward have that same limitation. You can't do anything else if you want to maintain eitther of them, however dodge roll makes you immune to everything; or at least everything that is going to be doing any significant damage to you.

Don't confuse these folks . The fact is that as soon as I cast dodge roll?... 1 second later my partial immunity is over (literally as soon as I come out of the roll..its gone.)...as soon as you cast hardened ward?...you have those 1-2-3 hits or 20 secs (if no one hits you) or 13 k + in damage absorption until you have to recast. Does your hardened ward eat aoes?...how about Meteor? Dodge roll is not complete immunity and it lasts for 1 ONE sec. What does hardened ward NOT mitigate? I want the list of spells/skills that ignore hardened ward.

Here from Ezareths post. Dodge roll can't evade Dots like VC or Detonation, you can evade crushing shock however (as it is a projectile).

Current short list that I can think of:
Meteor
Velocious Curse
Flame whip
Mana detonation
Entropy
Resto and Lightning heavy attacks
Concealed weapon
Jesus Beam

Of that short but not complete list what does your hardened ward not mitigate? And you cant be for real that some of those don't cause serious damage.

vichoi

To make glass cannon to paper cannon, and 1v10 tank to 1v30 tanks?

No

Tintinabula

The point that I am getting from this thread is this. If you want to be a tank and have a lot of health you will sacrifice dps. If you want to be a glass cannon stamina user you will sacrifice shields based off of health. If you want to be a high dps sorc glass cannon with shields out the wazoo and be tanky as heck..max your magicka..you're good to go..there are no downsides or sacrifices.

Jitterbug

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

simply no. The shields are fine, the only problem there really is is the shield stacking, when thats fixed, if its fixed, no one will have a problem with damage shields.

honestly, i dont get peoples problem with damage shields like ward, the shield stacking and such have been in the game since launch, yet no one said things then. What i think is that people want easy kills. get it in your head that sometimes your going to run into someone that is better than you, and they are going to kill you. Its not the game or spells in question, its that you simply are not as skilled a gamer as your PK'er

So no skills or mechanics are ever broken or needs tweaking by this logic?

LtCrunch

Tintinabula wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

Dodge roll is a one sec immunity..stop trying to compare it to a 20 second damage shield of 13K +..just stop..apples and watermelons.

That damage shield goes down in one or two hits and requires a recast constantly, it has to be used as often if not more often than dodge roll does. Complete immunity is much, much more powerful.

Its not "complete" immunity though. What damage does your hardened ward NOT mitigate? And also we cannot cast or shoot or swing a weapon while rolling..what can you cast while you watch your hardened ward go down?...everything.

Please list any targeted skill that hits you during dodge roll immunity, Just one. If one wants to maintain hardened ward that's all they're going to be casting, you can't cast multiple abilities at the same time. So both dodge roll and hardened ward have that same limitation. You can't do anything else if you want to maintain eitther of them, however dodge roll makes you immune to everything; or at least everything that is going to be doing any significant damage to you.

Don't confuse these folks . The fact is that as soon as I cast dodge roll?... 1 second later my partial immunity is over (literally as soon as I come out of the roll..its gone.)...as soon as you cast hardened ward?...you have those 1-2-3 hits or 20 secs (if no one hits you) or 13 k + in damage absorption until you have to recast. Does your hardened ward eat aoes?...how about Meteor? Dodge roll is not complete immunity and it lasts for 1 ONE sec. What does hardened ward NOT mitigate? I want the list of spells/skills that ignore hardened ward.

Here from Ezareths post. Dodge roll can't evade Dots like VC or Detonation, you can evade crushing shock however (as it is a projectile).

Current short list that I can think of:
Meteor
Velocious Curse
Flame whip
Mana detonation
Entropy
Resto and Lightning heavy attacks
Concealed weapon
Jesus Beam

Of that short but not complete list what does your hardened ward not mitigate? And you cant be for real that some of those don't cause serious damage.

If I get hit by enough people or enough things at the same time I'm dead because hardened ward negates a finite amount of damage, whereas dodge roll can negate a potential infinite amount of damage. In combat my hardened ward is not going to last for more than 1-3 seconds, more often than not it is down nearly instantly; at least against competent players. I'm also fully vulnerable to all forms of CC during that time, dodge roll gives you CC immunity. So dodge rolling can't avoid Meteor(an ultimate), velecious curse and radiant destruction. Those are the only real hard hitters on that list, the rest are mostly trivial and can be shrugged off relatively easily, specifically when combined with vigor(which all the dodge monkeys use).

Hardened ward negates up to X amount of damage from any source, sure but I can't cast it when I'm out of stamina. For hardened ward to scale to any really significant level you're going to have a very, very small stamina pool. If you know what you're doing the currently popular sorc builds you're seeing are easy to dispatch. The name of the game is CC and heavy burst.

Can you tell me is it that simple and easy to dispatch dodge monkeys? If so then please do share.