NB fear should be blockable

Mayrael

And i think it just should have reduced time to something like1,5-2s - including animations (ofc bugs need to be fixed). I think it should be something more than other ccs but it lasts way to long. It should be used to finish somoeone or to break their permablock, but not like this when nbs can burn your all shields + hp with just one cc. It should be helpful but not win win button. If total time of being cced by this skill would be max 2s it wouldnt be so op as it is. They still would be able to throw 2-3 skills but not kill everyone no matter how much hp and defense he has as it is now (you may be spell shielded heavy armored tank and still get killed within duration of this one skill).

Soulac

Mayrael wrote: »

And i think it just should have reduced time to something like1,5-2s - including animations (ofc bugs need to be fixed). I think it should be something more than other ccs but it lasts way to long. It should be used to finish somoeone or to break their permablock, but not like this when nbs can burn your all shields + hp with just one cc. It should be helpful but not win win button. If total time of being cced by this skill would be max 2s it wouldnt be so op as it is. They still would be able to throw 2-3 skills but not kill everyone no matter how much hp and defense he has as it is now (you may be spell shielded heavy armored tank and still get killed within duration of this one skill).

You can break the stun before the global cooldown of the casting NB ends, hope you know that.
Sometimes you got a delay on break free or you can't break it at all, but this is a bug applying to all stuns which needs a fix as soon as possible.

Mayrael

Soulac wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

And i think it just should have reduced time to something like1,5-2s - including animations (ofc bugs need to be fixed). I think it should be something more than other ccs but it lasts way to long. It should be used to finish somoeone or to break their permablock, but not like this when nbs can burn your all shields + hp with just one cc. It should be helpful but not win win button. If total time of being cced by this skill would be max 2s it wouldnt be so op as it is. They still would be able to throw 2-3 skills but not kill everyone no matter how much hp and defense he has as it is now (you may be spell shielded heavy armored tank and still get killed within duration of this one skill).

You can break the stun before the global cooldown of the casting NB ends, hope you know that.
Sometimes you got a delay on break free or you can't break it at all, but this is a bug applying to all stuns which needs a fix as soon as possible.

Y i know that mate, but if you trying to tell me that unblockable cc that lasts over 4.5 (with its stupid animation it lasts longer if not broke free) is perfectly fine ill just lol at you. Right now even with CP in break free cost reduction my magica sorc dont have any chances against good nb cause of fear. Even if we leave out endless dodge rolls and that 75% of my class damaging skills are just throwed in the air, i am forced to break free every 5-6s bc if i dont im dead. And even if i shield up before fear it gives me nothing bc NB burst is insane (and thats good). So the most fighst looks like this, i get feared i break free and bolt, now NB dodges and cloaks all the time, till my cc immunity goes down and repeat. Even with tripot used sooner or later i will run out of stamina and have to flee barely scraching NB, and its not just me, its about all magica users. Fear last to long, it shouldnt allow to single NB kill someone with 25k armor, shield up and full hp. It should open someone to your attacks but not guarantee 100% win as it is now, because if someone cant break free out of it hes as good as dead. Welcome to balance threads my dear NBs. Fear is OP, not because it cant be blocked but because it dont break on damage and last long enough to kill someone with shield up, full armor and hp without any efford. Its just win button. It has to be changed to resonable values. And i dont want any drastical changes. It shouldnt be blockable, it shouldnt break on damage it should last shorter, thats all. If someone has no stamina and get feared with 50% hp ok, he deserves to die but its just ridicolous that it allows to kill anyone even the most tanky char that has full hp and shields.

Milky

Yes, everything should be blockable. AND you should only be able to block attacks from the direction you are actually blocking towards...... sound fair?

Mayrael

Milky wrote: »

Yes, everything should be blockable. AND you should only be able to block attacks from the direction you are actually blocking towards...... sound fair?

If it goes for me its awesome (only that you should be able to block at least 180 degrees area - you can move your shield or weapon left or right to block something). Also roll dodge shouldnt allow to avoid things like sorc lightnings, NB impale, and few other skills. And whats the most important stealth shouldnt allow to hide anyone in the middle of empty meadow at sunny day, only invisibility should allow this. You wanna go further?

Milky

Mayrael wrote: »

Milky wrote: »

Yes, everything should be blockable. AND you should only be able to block attacks from the direction you are actually blocking towards...... sound fair?

If it goes for me its awesome (only that you should be able to block at least 180 degrees area - you can move your shield or weapon left or right to block something). Also roll dodge shouldnt allow to avoid things like sorc lightnings, NB impale, and few other skills. And whats the most important stealth shouldnt allow to hide anyone in the middle of empty meadow at sunny day, only invisibility should allow this. You wanna go further?

180 degrees seems fair.

I disagree on dodge. You should be able to dodge everything (except dots), but perma dodging shouldn't be possible either, so that's my balance.

I agree on stealth. I've been saying since launch that I think it's silly you can hide a 60 man army in the middle of a meadow. I wish stealth was more effective near shadows, trees, rocks, etc. And less effective in the middle of fields, during daylight, etc. I think NB should be the only class that gets access to true stealth any time of day regardless of terrain etc.

Vis

I am a sorc and I approve of fear going through block. There must be a counter to perma-blockers and fear balances that. The only fix fear needs is the animation delay that causes the cc break from not being immediate. Otherwise, thank the 7 for fear. Otherwise block spamming DKs is all we would see.

Edit: That cc break delay must be fixed for DKs rapidly spamming fossilize too (which is so cheap).

Milky

Vis wrote: »

I am a sorc and I approve of fear going through block. There must be a counter to perma-blockers and fear balances that. The only fix fear needs is the animation delay that causes the cc break from not being immediate. Otherwise, thank the 7 for fear. Otherwise block spamming DKs is all we would see.

Edit: That cc break delay must be fixed for DKs rapidly spamming fossilize too (which is so cheap).

I think the issue with fear break is that there are actually 2 delays.

Get feared -> delay -> allowed to CC break -> delay for CC break animation -> back to normal with immunity

I think if we just remove the first delay it should be fine. We need the second delay to have a chance against auto break programs that some perma blockers use.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

making fear blockable or letting players hold block while feared would make it as useful was it was in 1.5 all the damage you mitigate while blocking would still be mitigated while feared giving the Tank no reason to CC break. Fixing the CC break problem that happen with all CC is the only problem.

You can't just nerf Nightblades into the ground like they did with Veil of Blades

Xsorus

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

making fear blockable or letting players hold block while feared would make it as useful was it was in 1.5 all the damage you mitigate while blocking would still be mitigated while feared giving the Tank no reason to CC break. Fixing the CC break problem that happen with all CC is the only problem.

You can't just nerf Nightblades into the ground like they did with Veil of Blades

Umm...You pretty much had to CC break it in 1.5

Mainly because it wouldn't give you immunity otherwise, But another reason for the fact that while you're Feared and Holding Block a Nightblade could drain your stamina super fast with things like Shades and just attacking..

You realize how fast you stamina would be gone if you didn't break fear in 1.6 against a Nightblade with Shades and something like Crushing Shock?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

@Xsorus yes but you have to look at the Shades that can be used as they as useless for anything outside of fighting a tank they drop a 4 second damage debuff shorter then other damage debuff other then fear and after the four second they do 400 points damage for 20 seconds.

Weak damage and a short debuff when other powers have 12 sec debuffs it's not worth the slot for damage or the 15% debuff it's just a anti-block even the one with two shades that drops two 15% debuffs for four secs can't apply both debuffs at once so Dark Shades the two shade morph is just the permorph with other shade 1.6 stops debuff stacking and that's the point of the power I only slot it when I see someone fighting a tank it's not worth it to just run around with them on the bar

Roselle

I actually don't mind NB's fear. It's a way to take out a good player if they're actually in trouble.

I miss Luvboard's professional ninja rezzing skills. Just wanted to throw that out there.

Xsorus

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

@Xsorus yes but you have to look at the Shades that can be used as they as useless for anything outside of fighting a tank they drop a 4 second damage debuff shorter then other damage debuff other then fear and after the four second they do 400 points damage for 20 seconds.

Weak damage and a short debuff when other powers have 12 sec debuffs it's not worth the slot for damage or the 15% debuff it's just a anti-block even the one with two shades that drops two 15% debuffs for four secs can't apply both debuffs at once so Dark Shades the two shade morph is just the permorph with other shade 1.6 stops debuff stacking and that's the point of the power I only slot it when I see someone fighting a tank it's not worth it to just run around with them on the bar

They apply the debuff everytime they do damage from what I remember

So its basically a 20 second 15% damage debuff long as they apply damage every 4 seconds

just checked, yeap its 20 seconds or so of the 15% damage debuff long as they hit the target at least once every 4 seconds.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Xsorus wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

@Xsorus yes but you have to look at the Shades that can be used as they as useless for anything outside of fighting a tank they drop a 4 second damage debuff shorter then other damage debuff other then fear and after the four second they do 400 points damage for 20 seconds.

Weak damage and a short debuff when other powers have 12 sec debuffs it's not worth the slot for damage or the 15% debuff it's just a anti-block even the one with two shades that drops two 15% debuffs for four secs can't apply both debuffs at once so Dark Shades the two shade morph is just the permorph with other shade 1.6 stops debuff stacking and that's the point of the power I only slot it when I see someone fighting a tank it's not worth it to just run around with them on the bar

They apply the debuff everytime they do damage from what I remember

So its basically a 20 second 15% damage debuff long as they apply damage every 4 seconds

just checked, yeap its 20 seconds or so of the 15% damage debuff long as they hit the target at least once every 4 seconds.

Just tested it the Debuff does last the whole fight now have valid reason to slot it

Xsorus

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

@Xsorus yes but you have to look at the Shades that can be used as they as useless for anything outside of fighting a tank they drop a 4 second damage debuff shorter then other damage debuff other then fear and after the four second they do 400 points damage for 20 seconds.

Weak damage and a short debuff when other powers have 12 sec debuffs it's not worth the slot for damage or the 15% debuff it's just a anti-block even the one with two shades that drops two 15% debuffs for four secs can't apply both debuffs at once so Dark Shades the two shade morph is just the permorph with other shade 1.6 stops debuff stacking and that's the point of the power I only slot it when I see someone fighting a tank it's not worth it to just run around with them on the bar

They apply the debuff everytime they do damage from what I remember

So its basically a 20 second 15% damage debuff long as they apply damage every 4 seconds

just checked, yeap its 20 seconds or so of the 15% damage debuff long as they hit the target at least once every 4 seconds.

Just tested it the Debuff does last the whole fight now have valid reason to slot it

Its always lasted whole fight..Its a very good debuff...It was insanely good for draining stamina in 1.5 as well.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Well it must have been buggy when I first tried it then again a lot of NB were buggy back then

Vizier

Honestly funny to see all these "elite" players that have been facetrolling the eso community for the last year with their Perma-Block Demi-gods CRY over fear. Fear was made as a hard counter to block-spam.


Let's see here. You need to block fear because you can be "one-shot" by which you mean combo'd down with multiple attacks in a couple seconds. AND since others have some difficulty with

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

so your telling me you cant own my 10k hardened ward shield (the only one that stops stamina attacks) with the Ambush-Fear-Burst combo, lol. you sir are playing NB gimped and no wonder you are having trouble playing NB. And if you are getting hit by frags or overlaod, the easiest damage to avoid next to that templar slow moving projectile, then your skill level really must be called into question here.

Hmm lets compare Rune to Fear, rune has a 1.5 second cast time, fear is instant cast. Rune is interruptable, fear is not. Rune can be placed on your offensively after a 1.5 second cast or morphed to be defensive to where it goes off if your health is touched. compare that to fear with one morph it is defensive and offensive at the same damn time. Rune breaks on damage, fear does not, gg. wow am i seeing a major imbalance to your argument or what.

There are many many NB's out there that can one shot you through Rune prison with a full 11k shield up bypassing the Rune prison stun. if you are unable to do that then guess what your NB build is in the suck zone right now.

Do you even hear yourself? I know who you are. You're one of ESO heavy hitters for a long time. Not every player is going to have the META burn a sorc down or one shot him though 10k plus shield as they are hit with rune prison. I've don't it but usually the sorc gets away with a hair of health and IMO that's ok. They can usually survive to bubble up and I can usually get away from them after they come looking for revenge.

It's a total Red Herring to try and "compare" Fear to rune prison and then have a "this therefor that" argument attached to it. They are different skills that synergize with their class skills differently.

All I want to say is IT's about bleeping time the perma-block/shield spammers have been brought down a notch and shown their mortality. ESO has further to go though IMO with fix to Nirn, nerfs to shields and the removal of veteran ranks. Shall be glorious for the non- min-maxers and those that perfer a more well rounded approach.

Mayrael

Once again. Reduce time of fear to lets say 3s (with passive), fix animations and cc break + ban to all macro users and it would be really ok. You say you can bf from fear so why reduce time of this skill? So if someone can bf from it, why keep it like 4,5s? Answer is simple, if someone dont have stamina to bf no matter what armor he has, how much hp he has, hes dead cause in that time character like NB can kill everybody. Fear should give a chance to kill someone, not guarantee 100% kill.

DerpyShadowz

Mayrael wrote: »

Once again. Reduce time of fear to lets say 3s (with passive), fix animations and cc break + ban to all macro users and it would be really ok. You say you can bf from fear so why reduce time of this skill? So if someone can bf from it, why keep it like 4,5s? Answer is simple, if someone dont have stamina to bf no matter what armor he has, how much hp he has, hes dead cause in that time character like NB can kill everybody. Fear should give a chance to kill someone, not guarantee 100% kill.

Running out of stamina doesnt matter, Plenty of skills will keep you defenseless and 100% dead if you have no stamina. Against Block cast spamming whip DK's, fear is the only tool we have to even remotely get some dmg on them, meanwhile being whipped for 8k+ in the process of them blocking.

Mayrael

I Highlander l wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Once again. Reduce time of fear to lets say 3s (with passive), fix animations and cc break + ban to all macro users and it would be really ok. You say you can bf from fear so why reduce time of this skill? So if someone can bf from it, why keep it like 4,5s? Answer is simple, if someone dont have stamina to bf no matter what armor he has, how much hp he has, hes dead cause in that time character like NB can kill everybody. Fear should give a chance to kill someone, not guarantee 100% kill.

Running out of stamina doesnt matter, Plenty of skills will keep you defenseless and 100% dead if you have no stamina. Against Block cast spamming whip DK's, fear is the only tool we have to even remotely get some dmg on them, meanwhile being whipped for 8k+ in the process of them blocking.

Give me at least one sucha skill? Blockable ccs are not, because to block them i dont need 1/3 of my stamina to block (also there is no other stun that lasts so long), fosilize breaks on damage same as rune prison, so you have a chance to heal or shield up. Damage dealing skills see above. Nope there is no other skill that requires from any magica user to keep his stamina over 30% or die.

iseko

All hard cc's should be blockable.

Some soft cc's like disorient should be able to go through block but breaks on dmg...

Aoe cc going through block is bs.

Zsymon

Mass Hysteria really shouldn't be blockable, in fact every class should have a counter to block.

iseko

Zsymon wrote: »

Mass Hysteria really shouldn't be blockable, in fact every class should have a counter to block.

Not a hard stun though. Radiant spear (templar) goes through block but gives a disorient, unlike blazing spear which gives a hard stun but does not pass block. Which is fine. Hard stun going through block is just bs.

Zsymon

iseko wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Mass Hysteria really shouldn't be blockable, in fact every class should have a counter to block.

Not a hard stun though. Radiant spear (templar) goes through block but gives a disorient, unlike blazing spear which gives a hard stun but does not pass block. Which is fine. Hard stun going through block is just bs.

Well, fear should probably break on x amount of damage, true.

helediron

Zsymon wrote: »

iseko wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Mass Hysteria really shouldn't be blockable, in fact every class should have a counter to block.

Not a hard stun though. Radiant spear (templar) goes through block but gives a disorient, unlike blazing spear which gives a hard stun but does not pass block. Which is fine. Hard stun going through block is just bs.

Well, fear should probably break on x amount of damage, true.

No, there is a thing called PvE, and these amount-of-damage tweaks make skills useless there like Agony is. Just fix cc bug.

Mayrael

helediron wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

iseko wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Mass Hysteria really shouldn't be blockable, in fact every class should have a counter to block.

Not a hard stun though. Radiant spear (templar) goes through block but gives a disorient, unlike blazing spear which gives a hard stun but does not pass block. Which is fine. Hard stun going through block is just bs.

Well, fear should probably break on x amount of damage, true.

No, there is a thing called PvE, and these amount-of-damage tweaks make skills useless there like Agony is. Just fix cc bug.

Umm.. You say it makes this skill useless in pve -LOL. As if it would be something rally critical for nb, like he wouldnt have any other useful skills... Its game breaking skill in pvp, and useful in pve nothing more, it can be repleaced by e.g. Volcanic Rune, mobs are dumb, they dont avoid it like ppl in pvp.

Attorneyatlawl

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

@Xsorus yes but you have to look at the Shades that can be used as they as useless for anything outside of fighting a tank they drop a 4 second damage debuff shorter then other damage debuff other then fear and after the four second they do 400 points damage for 20 seconds.

Weak damage and a short debuff when other powers have 12 sec debuffs it's not worth the slot for damage or the 15% debuff it's just a anti-block even the one with two shades that drops two 15% debuffs for four secs can't apply both debuffs at once so Dark Shades the two shade morph is just the permorph with other shade 1.6 stops debuff stacking and that's the point of the power I only slot it when I see someone fighting a tank it's not worth it to just run around with them on the bar

This is a joke, correct? The dual-shade morph, used on a magicka build (it is a magicka skill, after all), deals around 2200 DPS on a moderate resist target that is moving without a speed buff of some kind (around 2500 dps when the enemy is stationary), each one striking for ~850-900 damage before critical chance (which is inherited from the nightblade player) at a maximum speed of four-fifths of a second (0.8s) each (or 0.4s for each attack between the pair) per shade (with two summoned). The damage debuff refreshes itself each time one of the shades strikes an enemy. The twin shade morph is higher dps with better resource draining on enemy targets that block (you get two shades that deal a slightly lower amount of damage per hit but you have two of them striking) while the single-shade ranged morph has a higher per-hit damage, is ranged for higher uptime on moving targets, and allows you to teleport back to it at will once per summon. Please have the courtesy to have this kind of basic information at hand before trying to make a balance argument .

Characters used for this information:
A.) My PTS toon w/ character copied gear: 44,200 magicka w/ 1980 spellpow & 44% spellcrit + 5pc light armor spellpen, 10pt spell erosion champ passive, and reaper's mark with nirnhoned weapon. Regeneration drink active and Apprentice (spellpen) mundus stone.
B.) Guildmate's Live toon: 31,800 magicka w/ 3070 spellpow & 48% spellcrit + 5pc light armor spellpen, 5pt spell erosion champ passive, and reaper's mark with sharpened weapon. Regeneration drink active and Apprentice (spellpen) mundus stone.
Targets: Eachothers' characters on PTS, and on live my guildmate reported numbers from fighting in Cyrodiil over the course of a few hours of gameplay against a wide variety of enemies.

Attorneyatlawl

iseko wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Mass Hysteria really shouldn't be blockable, in fact every class should have a counter to block.

Not a hard stun though. Radiant spear (templar) goes through block but gives a disorient, unlike blazing spear which gives a hard stun but does not pass block. Which is fine. Hard stun going through block is just bs.

Attacks like this need to remain blockable. The counter to block is intended to, and has always been bar this patch version and honestly silly change, enemy resource depletion, positioning and forcing them to not block (be it by range, line of sight, changing the circumstances (hitting their healer helps ), or pressing through it outright; blocking automatically self-snares you, eliminates your medium-attack weaving (a substantial dps loss), and automatically opens you up to losing a chunk of stamina per hit (including parts of multi-hit attacks), all of which are significant drawbacks to be balanced).

Zsymon wrote: »

iseko wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Mass Hysteria really shouldn't be blockable, in fact every class should have a counter to block.

Not a hard stun though. Radiant spear (templar) goes through block but gives a disorient, unlike blazing spear which gives a hard stun but does not pass block. Which is fine. Hard stun going through block is just bs.

Well, fear should probably break on x amount of damage, true.

Our fear should break on any non-DOT damage on the ground-target trap morph, and any damage on the castable pbae morph, really. The at-will guaranteed hit one serves a purpose then with the downside being it breaks like any other mez but the upside being it's an aoe... while the trap one won't break immediately on pre-existing damage effects but will once actively attacked, with the downside being that it requires the enemy to move into or while inside the area surrounding the nightblade since it drops on top of him.

Vizier

I see no reason why it should be blockable. It appears to be working as intended. I believe it was designed for exactly the purpose of breaking block and is doing just that.

It's a new situation and players are having to adjust. I honestly don't have a huge problem dealing with fear. I break it, dodgeroll and reposition.

I have noticed alot of Dragon Knights getting fried from Fear because they can't permablock 5-10 attackers forever anymore if a NB uses fear on them. I see this all the time. DK is Permablocking 5 plus, spamming whip and parking himself inside his dropped standard. I run in or ambush in, pop fear and watch him run out of his circle of protection and get burned down by the rest. I'm pretty certain THAT is how it's supposed to work. The DK was probably low on stamina resource and that's was what was needed.

I also see DK's break the fear fast and get back to business. Shrug. For all lengthy explanations, QQ and tears in this thread I'm thinking it's a L2P issue. I really don't like saying L2P but perhaps it's more of a L2A (adapt) issue instead. I get hit with fear all the time. It's not always a death sentence so I'm just not seeing the "crisis" here.

Zsymon

Fear definitely does not need to be blockable, every class needs a CC that breaks block. If you want to make Fear break on damage, that's something else, but really it's easier to just break free and dodge roll, if you do it fast enough you won't get hit. No need for ZOS to change the game if it can be countered.