Players Need More Control Over Justice System Choices

starkerealm · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Just that I don't think that the system should be removed completely from the game.

Yeah, no, outside of a few straw man scarecrows, no one's arguing to remove it from the game. This is just about not pitching newbies into the deep end up front without warning.

EDIT: Well, and removing the worry that if we're in a hurry we won't accidentally... yes, actually accidentally, without the scare quotes, snag something off a bench or guild kiosk.

Explain how you can accidentally highlight and steal an item. I mean, you can cry lag (doesn't happen) or that your hand just slipped (your own fault), but please explain how highlighting something, seeing the red interaction text of "STEAL" pop up and clicking on it can be accidental.

You press E.

That wasn't an accident, then.

It was if your intention differed from your action.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Just that I don't think that the system should be removed completely from the game.

Yeah, no, outside of a few straw man scarecrows, no one's arguing to remove it from the game. This is just about not pitching newbies into the deep end up front without warning.

EDIT: Well, and removing the worry that if we're in a hurry we won't accidentally... yes, actually accidentally, without the scare quotes, snag something off a bench or guild kiosk.

Explain how you can accidentally highlight and steal an item. I mean, you can cry lag (doesn't happen) or that your hand just slipped (your own fault), but please explain how highlighting something, seeing the red interaction text of "STEAL" pop up and clicking on it can be accidental.

You press E.

That wasn't an accident, then.

It was if your intention differed from your action.

Was your intention not to press E?

Then why did you press E?

starkerealm · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Just that I don't think that the system should be removed completely from the game.

Yeah, no, outside of a few straw man scarecrows, no one's arguing to remove it from the game. This is just about not pitching newbies into the deep end up front without warning.

EDIT: Well, and removing the worry that if we're in a hurry we won't accidentally... yes, actually accidentally, without the scare quotes, snag something off a bench or guild kiosk.

Explain how you can accidentally highlight and steal an item. I mean, you can cry lag (doesn't happen) or that your hand just slipped (your own fault), but please explain how highlighting something, seeing the red interaction text of "STEAL" pop up and clicking on it can be accidental.

You press E.

That wasn't an accident, then.

It was if your intention differed from your action.

Was your intention not to press E?

Then why did you press E?

No, you pressed E. I was just watching the entire scene play out with a mild sense of schadenfruede.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Just that I don't think that the system should be removed completely from the game.

Yeah, no, outside of a few straw man scarecrows, no one's arguing to remove it from the game. This is just about not pitching newbies into the deep end up front without warning.

EDIT: Well, and removing the worry that if we're in a hurry we won't accidentally... yes, actually accidentally, without the scare quotes, snag something off a bench or guild kiosk.

Explain how you can accidentally highlight and steal an item. I mean, you can cry lag (doesn't happen) or that your hand just slipped (your own fault), but please explain how highlighting something, seeing the red interaction text of "STEAL" pop up and clicking on it can be accidental.

You press E.

That wasn't an accident, then.

It was if your intention differed from your action.

Was your intention not to press E?

Then why did you press E?

No, you pressed E. I was just watching the entire scene play out with a mild sense of schadenfruede.

Well, if I pressed E, then I meant to press E. No accident there.

See, the problem here is that I'm taking responsibility for my bad play instead of claiming that the game system made me highlight an item and pick it up without paying attention.

starkerealm · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Just that I don't think that the system should be removed completely from the game.

Yeah, no, outside of a few straw man scarecrows, no one's arguing to remove it from the game. This is just about not pitching newbies into the deep end up front without warning.

EDIT: Well, and removing the worry that if we're in a hurry we won't accidentally... yes, actually accidentally, without the scare quotes, snag something off a bench or guild kiosk.

Explain how you can accidentally highlight and steal an item. I mean, you can cry lag (doesn't happen) or that your hand just slipped (your own fault), but please explain how highlighting something, seeing the red interaction text of "STEAL" pop up and clicking on it can be accidental.

You press E.

That wasn't an accident, then.

It was if your intention differed from your action.

Was your intention not to press E?

Then why did you press E?

No, you pressed E. I was just watching the entire scene play out with a mild sense of schadenfruede.

Well, if I pressed E, then I meant to press E. No accident there.

See, the problem here is that I'm taking responsibility for my bad play instead of claiming that the game system made me highlight an item and pick it up without paying attention.

Ah, "I meant to do that," gotcha.

MercyKilling · March 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info943-NoAccidentalStealing.html

It's a real and available solution.

At least until the next patch/update breaks the add on. Is it so much to ask that a feature be implemented so as to avoid having to redownload it every patch/update?

Until Zenimax updates every add on WITH the patches, add ons are NOT a viable solution to anything.

Fleshreaper · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Well, if I pressed E, then I meant to press E. No accident there.

See, the problem here is that I'm taking responsibility for my bad play instead of claiming that the game system made me highlight an item and pick it up without paying attention.

What about people with disabilities?

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

MercyKilling wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info943-NoAccidentalStealing.html

It's a real and available solution.

At least until the next patch/update breaks the add on. Is it so much to ask that a feature be implemented so as to avoid having to redownload it every patch/update?

Until Zenimax updates every add on WITH the patches, add ons are NOT a viable solution to anything.

ZO can't and won't do that, and they've already given a very detailed explanation as to why they won't be adding this "feature" to the game.

starkerealm · March 2015

Fleshreaper wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Well, if I pressed E, then I meant to press E. No accident there.

See, the problem here is that I'm taking responsibility for my bad play instead of claiming that the game system made me highlight an item and pick it up without paying attention.

What about people with disabilities?

I think I can give you Nerevarine's answer on that subject, "clearly, they meant to to that."

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Fleshreaper wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Well, if I pressed E, then I meant to press E. No accident there.

See, the problem here is that I'm taking responsibility for my bad play instead of claiming that the game system made me highlight an item and pick it up without paying attention.

What about people with disabilities?

Honestly, how many people are in that boat? And how is this system specifically a problem for them while others aren't? If you have a disability that makes you hit keys you don't mean to, presumably you've found ways to make it work with games until now.

starkerealm · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Fleshreaper wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Well, if I pressed E, then I meant to press E. No accident there.

See, the problem here is that I'm taking responsibility for my bad play instead of claiming that the game system made me highlight an item and pick it up without paying attention.

What about people with disabilities?

Honestly, how many people are in that boat? And how is this system specifically a problem for them while others aren't? If you have a disability that makes you hit keys you don't mean to, presumably you've found ways to make it work with games until now.

You know, I was closer than I wanted to be. $:\$

ZOS_AlanG · March 2015

Hi guys, this discussion is getting a little heated. Let's please remember to keep this thread civil, constructive, and on topic.

nimander99 · March 2015

Well said! @ZOS_MandiParker

Ley · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Just that I don't think that the system should be removed completely from the game.

Yeah, no, outside of a few straw man scarecrows, no one's arguing to remove it from the game. This is just about not pitching newbies into the deep end up front without warning.

EDIT: Well, and removing the worry that if we're in a hurry we won't accidentally... yes, actually accidentally, without the scare quotes, snag something off a bench or guild kiosk.

Explain how you can accidentally highlight and steal an item. I mean, you can cry lag (doesn't happen) or that your hand just slipped (your own fault), but please explain how highlighting something, seeing the red interaction text of "STEAL" pop up and clicking on it can be accidental.

You press E.

That wasn't an accident, then.

It was if your intention differed from your action.

Was your intention not to press E?

Then why did you press E?

I can't tell if you're being serious or just being difficult.
Miss-clicking is a fairly easy mistake to make. There are lots of reasons why someone may accidentally press E, and not get the result that they intended. Mix that with a little bit of lag or a trigger happy finger (spamming E several times) and accidentally looting the desk in front of the banker or picking up that drink on the table next to the npc you're questing for, seem like a real possibilities.

I don't think that it is particularly hard to avoid committing crimes and I don't think that the penalties for small crimes are particularly harsh. Still I can see how it would be easy to commit a crime by mistake and understand why some players would like a toggle option to eliminate that factor.

This is really not high on my personal priority list and I likely wouldn't use the toggle even if it was available, preferring to simply be more cautious.

I don't understand the outright opposition of some people to this idea, ultimately it would make some people happy and have no adverse effects on the rest.

I feel like I've flipped sides on this debate.

starkerealm · March 2015

Ley wrote: »

Miss-clicking is a fairly easy mistake to make. There are lots of reasons why someone may accidentally press E, and not get the result that they intended. Mix that with a little bit of lag or a trigger happy finger (spamming E several times) and accidentally looting the desk in front of the banker or picking up that drink on the table next to the npc you're questing for, seem like a real possibilities.

One thing I've noticed since 1.6... actually, maybe since 1.5, occasionally the interact key will become semi-responsive. As in it sometimes takes two or three presses to register. It doesn't happen when typing, or in other games, for that matter. Just ESO. It hasn't lead to an accidental theft yet... but it has lead to me getting knocked into the wrong node at a bank a few times. Particularly the Dunmer banker in Davon's Watch who, if you press E a second time after he starts, will go into a whole spiel about the wonders of the Pact banking system with no option to back out and say, "no, just let me look at my shank account!" without leaving dialog and starting over.

Annoying, but nothing game breaking... and I don't know if that's just me or not.

wraith808 · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

How do you know it's not on the radar already?

Developer responses.

wraith808 wrote: »

You don't.

No, actually I do know. If you'd looked a little earlier in this thread you'd see the "working as intended" bit from... whoever it was. And of course there was Gina saying roughly the same thing about the healing bounty in an earlier thread.

wraith808 wrote: »

And you continue to spurn the idea of using an add-on.

Because it's not a panacea for all the world's ills.

wraith808 wrote: »

Yes, sure- make the suggestion.

Cool, will do.

wraith808 wrote: »

It's already been made several times.

Then it will be made several more, I'm sure.

wraith808 wrote: »

Then, instead of continually making new threads and bumping new threads and increasing the signal to noise ratio, use the add on.

Yeah, but the addon doesn't seem to reduce the number of people in zone complaining about how the guards keep murdering them over and over. You've got an addon for that?

wraith808 wrote: »

There's a line between suggesting and griping, and its important to see the distinction, or it just becomes a lot of noise.

So, you're contributing to the noise because... what? You don't want it fixed? I mean, I guess with the right outlook it could be amusing. Not the outlook I usually take, but, hey, to each their own, right?

I was contributing to the 'noise' to try to help. And just because it works as intended now, doesn't mean that's intended long term. But, I'll leave it at that.

Divinius · March 2015

Wow...

10 pages of this? Really?

As much as people want to defend poor game design (by all mean, have fun, but you're still wrong), the fact that there is no way in the game to prevent accidentally committing certain crimes is a valid complaint about poor design. There are two very obvious main flaws:

1) The settings prevent you from being able to attack innocents, but do NOT prevent you from gaining a bounty from accidentally healing the wrong people at the wrong time.

2) The settings prevent you from being able to auto-loot stolen goods, but do NOT prevent you from accidentally looting owned items that are not in containers.

Now the ZOS defenders can argue until they are blue in the face that "it's your own fault if you accidentally do one of those things." And while that is 100% true, that doesn't make it NOT an accident.

Any system where it is relatively easy to do something you did not intend to do, and where doing so has negative repercussions, is a flawed system. Even the defenders say things like "When I accidentally do that, I just accept it and own up to it." That's fine. If you are so willing to accept a poorly designed system that you honestly have no problem when the limitations of the system bite you, that's good for you. Please forgive the rest of us for wanting to see the game improved to make the game less frustrating.

Here's how to fix the two items above:

1) Setting "Prevent attacking innocents" to "ON" would also prevent you from being able to heal anyone in a situation where healing them would give you bounty.

2a) Setting "Auto-loot owned containers" (or whatever it's called) to "OFF" would make it so that ANY owned item (even those not in containers) would bring up the same loot window that a container does.
-or-
2b) Adding a new setting for "Prevent Stealing" which, when set to "ON" would completely prevent you from being able to pick up any owned item at all.

Simple changes that would alleviate most, if not all, of the complaints people have about accidental crimes.

The biggest issue I have with people that insist that nothing needs to be changed, is that making the necessary changes to fix these flaws would affect those people in literally no way at all.

So please, ZOS, consider some modifications to your justice system?
Love,
-Div

starkerealm · March 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

I was contributing to the 'noise' to try to help. And just because it works as intended now, doesn't mean that's intended long term. But, I'll leave it at that.

The problem with the current system is: it attempts to affect player behavior. The rules are set in place with a specific play style in mind, and the guards will maul you with bears if you get out of line.

There's an element of this that's just a function of game design. As a designer, you're always going to be setting barriers on players, and saying, "no, don't do this," or, "do that." You use soft caps, limitations, or flat out prohibitions to do the former, and incentivize the later. Again, that's just normal game design.

ESO has a problem where, it's player manipulation is... well, wonky.

Some basic design elements feed into how you're supposed to approach crafting, I'm going to use it as an example because it's the one I'm most familiar with.

Warning: Long crafting example incoming:

Crafting was designed with the intention of specialization and player interaction. You're supposed to pick a craft or two. (I think the total was three professions), and focus on that, interacting with other players to get what you need from the other three. You weren't supposed to be hoarding resources you didn't actually use. Now, ZoS was clearly familiar with the idea that players could create bank alts... so the best way to get you to soft cap your crafting was to encourage you to keep your materials in your account bank. Which you'd then clog up, if you weren't selective, didn't get rid of the materials you were no longer using.

Ever wonder why character's don't have individual banks? This is probably a big part of it.

Also, remember, gold was a lot harder to come by at launch. So, enlarging your bank would, at least in theory, involve a fair amount of interaction with other players.

Another key piece here are recipes and motif books. Again, the point is to influence player behavior. You can't stop someone from hoarding them, but if you make them take up a disproportionate amount of space, you encourage them to sell or trade them. The Vendor returns are terrible, but you could actually make some money selling them to other players, or get the ones you wanted from trading.

The key here is to encourage player interaction.

But, of course, we know how that turned out. People horded motifs, and crafting mats. They rolled up characters and turned them into mules. People earned all of the crafting achievements. And then after nearly a year, the crafting stack limit was doubled, nearly halving our inventory consumption. Also provisioning was pulled down into an easy fit between alchemy's space commitment and enchanting's. (Not counting recipes, at any rate.)

And, honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the 1.6 changes actually freed up a lot of mules... at least in the short term. I know it actually let me play my provisioner again for the first time in months.

But, here we are again. The current system is set up, with some flawed ideas about how players will act, and trying to enforce that behavior.

And then we get this line from Mandi:

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Further, having a “No Theft” toggle would remove interactivity in the world and it would eliminate one of the few non-combat risks that people might encounter. Sometimes even the most careful player will run into a hostile monster by accident (and sometimes they get killed by this), but we do not allow players to toggle off hostility. That would be quite odd, right?

I'm not even going to get into the no interactivity thing except to say, removing "false" interactivity from the world isn't really removing anything... but... I get the intent here.

The proliferation of items is supposed to push a kleptomaniac impulse. So, if you're already stealing stuff, why not go for the rest? It is, quite literally there, to bait your behavior. You crack a whatever, get a neat goodie, and have the impulse to continue with your crime spree, even though that might be a very bad idea. So far as that goes, it's fine... if you want to engage in that system at all.

If you want to remove characters from that system, either because it would be out of character for them to behave that way, or because you simply don't want to deal with the hassle of ferreting out the cooking fire in Sentinel from the beets and roast pheasant hanging in front of it, between your camera and the crafting station... you're out of luck. (Yeah, there were actually pheasants hanging in front of that fire when 1.6 first hit the PTS. There's also obstructions elsewhere, especially with cooking fires.)

So, we're back in the position we were originally in with crafting. There's an intended design decision, that's supposed to push you towards a specific playstyle... except this time, that play style comes with much more severe consequences for miscalculating.

Oh, right and then the healing thing because, "LoL, you rolled a Templar?"

I get the Dev's position there too. They don't want you to be able to heal a player while they're fleeing from the guards with impunity. Just, the implementation of that system leaves something to be desired, given you cannot pick who you heal. And, then the tone deaf response in another thread, from... I think it was Gina, that amounted to, "well, just switch weapon bars."

*headdesk*

DogFaceInBananaPatch · March 2015

Do this for *only* non container items and make the key press to steal items need to be held down for a half a second IF NPC's are nearby.

Extreme psuedo-code and very wrong. lol

if(reticule_over == stealable) then
   if(key_press == KEY_THAT_INTERACTS)
      keyDownStart = getMilliSeconds()
      bool = checkForNPCnearby(20)
      if(bool) then
         delta = getMilliSeconds() - EVENT_KEY_UP
         if(delta > 500) then
            steal()
         else
           d("Mmmm... that apple looks delicious but maybe later.")
            return;
         end
      end
   end
end

Ysne58 · March 2015

I support a recommendation that the player get the same warning about loose items that are owned as she does with containers. There is always an option to not take it with that warning.

That is not the case with loose items currently. Just how hard would it be to code something like this anyway?

starkerealm · March 2015

Actually, am I just crazy or did loose objects (like drinks) actually bring up a loot window back around 1.0 or 1.1?

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Ysne58 wrote: »

I support a recommendation that the player get the same warning about loose items that are owned as she does with containers. There is always an option to not take it with that warning.

That is not the case with loose items currently. Just how hard would it be to code something like this anyway?

Fairly hard, since those items are just meant to be lootable in the world. Containers are just separate entities, so the only reason you have a chance to reconsider there is because you have to see what's in the container before choosing to loot it. In both cases, you have giant red letters telling you that it is considered stealing.

starkerealm wrote: »

Actually, am I just crazy or did loose objects (like drinks) actually bring up a loot window back around 1.0 or 1.1?

Well, this doesn't preclude you being crazy, but loot windows did pop up for drink racks and the like in beta. But no, items in the actual world (stuff on tables, etc.) have never brought up their own loot dialogue.

eventide03b14a_ESO · March 2015

Divinius wrote: »

Wow...

10 pages of this? Really?

As much as people want to defend poor game design (by all mean, have fun, but you're still wrong), the fact that there is no way in the game to prevent accidentally committing certain crimes is a valid complaint about poor design. There are two very obvious main flaws:

1) The settings prevent you from being able to attack innocents, but do NOT prevent you from gaining a bounty from accidentally healing the wrong people at the wrong time.

2) The settings prevent you from being able to auto-loot stolen goods, but do NOT prevent you from accidentally looting owned items that are not in containers.

Now the ZOS defenders can argue until they are blue in the face that "it's your own fault if you accidentally do one of those things." And while that is 100% true, that doesn't make it NOT an accident.

Any system where it is relatively easy to do something you did not intend to do, and where doing so has negative repercussions, is a flawed system. Even the defenders say things like "When I accidentally do that, I just accept it and own up to it." That's fine. If you are so willing to accept a poorly designed system that you honestly have no problem when the limitations of the system bite you, that's good for you. Please forgive the rest of us for wanting to see the game improved to make the game less frustrating.

Here's how to fix the two items above:

1) Setting "Prevent attacking innocents" to "ON" would also prevent you from being able to heal anyone in a situation where healing them would give you bounty.

2a) Setting "Auto-loot owned containers" (or whatever it's called) to "OFF" would make it so that ANY owned item (even those not in containers) would bring up the same loot window that a container does.
-or-
2b) Adding a new setting for "Prevent Stealing" which, when set to "ON" would completely prevent you from being able to pick up any owned item at all.

Simple changes that would alleviate most, if not all, of the complaints people have about accidental crimes.

The biggest issue I have with people that insist that nothing needs to be changed, is that making the necessary changes to fix these flaws would affect those people in literally no way at all.

So please, ZOS, consider some modifications to your justice system?
Love,
-Div

They should include these settings to opt out of it. I think the justice system was poorly done and I honestly hate it so much that I would prefer to forget it even exists. Silly things like having your bounty be world wide even in factions that hate each other, things like unkillable guards, or not being able to prevent a bounty by killing witnesses. These are just basic things that really ruin it for me.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Wow...

10 pages of this? Really?

As much as people want to defend poor game design (by all mean, have fun, but you're still wrong), the fact that there is no way in the game to prevent accidentally committing certain crimes is a valid complaint about poor design. There are two very obvious main flaws:

1) The settings prevent you from being able to attack innocents, but do NOT prevent you from gaining a bounty from accidentally healing the wrong people at the wrong time.

2) The settings prevent you from being able to auto-loot stolen goods, but do NOT prevent you from accidentally looting owned items that are not in containers.

Now the ZOS defenders can argue until they are blue in the face that "it's your own fault if you accidentally do one of those things." And while that is 100% true, that doesn't make it NOT an accident.

Any system where it is relatively easy to do something you did not intend to do, and where doing so has negative repercussions, is a flawed system. Even the defenders say things like "When I accidentally do that, I just accept it and own up to it." That's fine. If you are so willing to accept a poorly designed system that you honestly have no problem when the limitations of the system bite you, that's good for you. Please forgive the rest of us for wanting to see the game improved to make the game less frustrating.

Here's how to fix the two items above:

1) Setting "Prevent attacking innocents" to "ON" would also prevent you from being able to heal anyone in a situation where healing them would give you bounty.

2a) Setting "Auto-loot owned containers" (or whatever it's called) to "OFF" would make it so that ANY owned item (even those not in containers) would bring up the same loot window that a container does.
-or-
2b) Adding a new setting for "Prevent Stealing" which, when set to "ON" would completely prevent you from being able to pick up any owned item at all.

Simple changes that would alleviate most, if not all, of the complaints people have about accidental crimes.

The biggest issue I have with people that insist that nothing needs to be changed, is that making the necessary changes to fix these flaws would affect those people in literally no way at all.

So please, ZOS, consider some modifications to your justice system?
Love,
-Div

They should include these settings to opt out of it. I think the justice system was poorly done and I honestly hate it so much that I would prefer to forget it even exists. Silly things like having your bounty be world wide even in factions that hate each other, things like unkillable guards, or not being able to prevent a bounty by killing witnesses. These are just basic things that really ruin it for me.

So in other words, the justice system in every Elder Scrolls game except Skryim was horrible?

The unkillable guards only exist to actually force consequences while the system doesn't have PvP enforcers.

starkerealm · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

So in other words, the justice system in every Elder Scrolls game except Skryim was horrible?

No, those systems had a quickload for times when everyone lost their mind and went homicidal because you knocked over a candlestick.

Ley · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

So in other words, the justice system in every Elder Scrolls game except Skryim was horrible?

No, those systems had a quickload for times when everyone lost their mind and went homicidal because you knocked over a candlestick.

Brings back some good times.

Flynch · March 2015

It is obvious that the justice system needs a bit of work. Sneaking to steal should be an absolute.

The game should punish the player for their intended actions, not for their unintended actions. Pretty clear-cut.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

So in other words, the justice system in every Elder Scrolls game except Skryim was horrible?

No, those systems had a quickload for times when everyone lost their mind and went homicidal because you knocked over a candlestick.

For those of us who didn't use quickload functions to essentially cheat, this is a moot point. And why is everyone so averse to actually suffering consequences for their actions?

Flynch · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

So in other words, the justice system in every Elder Scrolls game except Skryim was horrible?

No, those systems had a quickload for times when everyone lost their mind and went homicidal because you knocked over a candlestick.

For those of us who didn't use quickload functions to essentially cheat, this is a moot point. And why is everyone so averse to actually suffering consequences for their actions?

Because they AREN'T their actions. They are the actions created by a wonky UI

Nebthet78 · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Explain how you can accidentally highlight and steal an item. I mean, you can cry lag (doesn't happen) or that your hand just slipped (your own fault), but please explain how highlighting something, seeing the red interaction text of "STEAL" pop up and clicking on it can be accidental.

Crates, Barrels, Sacks, Backpacks all have an item window that pops up. These items cannot be accidentally stolen since as a player you chose to check what was inside them.

However, items on tables, such as cups, food, armor and weapons CAN be accidentally stolen because when you accidentally click E, it automatically goes into your inventory. There is no "Are you sure?" option. It basically auto loots on you, and the option not to auto loot has no affect on this.

Accidentally clicking E can happen a couple of ways:

- Some players like myself have disabilities that cause hand tremors and when looking around or moving as normally through a town, etc, sometimes a sudden hand tremor happens and you end up accidentally button mashing when you didn't mean to. Turning off not accidentally killing innocents helps to keep from killing people, but it does not help with the auto looting of items on a table.

- Secondly, when attempting to interact with an NPC for a quest, and that NPC suddenly moves when you click E, and you get the bottle instead because, in that split second that is too fast for you to properly react to, that "steal bottle" comes up just as the NPC moves. The lag that is happening in the PVE environment for many people is not helping this either.

Other issues I have come across include:

If you are a vampire, and even if you have the "Do Not Attack Innocents" turned on, the feed option still comes up for you to be able to technically attack that NPC. If you feed on that NPC, that NPC will turn around and attack you and you cannot attack them back.

This happened to me in the one Greenshade Delve with the Veiled Inheritance in it. It is extremely confusing in that delve who is an enemy NPC you cannot attack and an Enemy you CAN attack as they are all listed as Veiled Heritance. Why the hell is there a difference?? You can also pickpocket these NPC and get a bounty for it as well.

The fact these type of issues are cropping up in the game, shows just how much ZOS bypassed to push the Justice System out for the relaunch. Many things were over looked.

It also wouldn't be that hard for them to create a toggle for people to opt-out of stealing anything. Every time I go to look at a barrel or crate, it has the "Search Barrel" option in white appears first and then a split second later the "Steal from Barrel" in red appears over top of it.

Again, for people with lag issues and quick fingers, that would also create a problem.

ZOS needs to fix the few issues there are with the Justice System.

They need to ensure in the future, that those who do not want to participate in the PVP portion of the Justice System are not forced to do so. (while still being able to participate fully in the PvE aspects of the Justice System. - *added because Tandor pointed it out and I forgot to put it in)

They need to go back and put in an "Are you sure you want to steal that?" option for those who pick up stuff from tables just in case a player accidentally clicks E when trying to interact with an NPC.

If a player has the "Do not hard innocents" turned on, they need to ensure that player is unable to also feed on that NPC if the player is a vampire, thus bypassing the who "Do not harm innocents"