Players Need More Control Over Justice System Choices

gard

Majic wrote: »

Taking A Bite Out Of Crime

Ashigaru wrote: »

You can opt out, there is a option to not attack npc's or such in options and the same for stealing, you can turn the auto loot off for stolen items.

That doesn't apply to stealable items that aren't in containers, such as food and beverages sitting on tables or crates, which can be found right next to many merchants, and which can easily be stolen by accident when NPCs move or due to the dodgy way the cursor behaves in third-person view.

A proper solution would be to offer an option that simply doesn't allow stealing at all, and so far there hasn't been a single sensible argument against doing so posted in these forums.

Always showing "you are about to steal" would work for me. My current toon has no ethics dilemma stealing from enemies so I like having the option. But I don't like stealing display items on accident. (This would be the argument against not allowing stealing at all. I'd hate it if the only options were the current broken implementation or no stealing, period)

In regards to friendlies, yesterday during a quest I was attacked by a bad guy while in a tavern surrounded by innocents. I targeted him but still managed to hit a friendly unintentionally with either a weapon swing or (what's supposed to be) a single target ultimate. Not sure what happened there. Be nice if when I tag someone as the target, they really are the target.

nerevarine1138

Castagere wrote: »

Govalon wrote: »

Welcome to Elder Scrolls. This is exactly how it is supposed to work if the intention is to make thieving-system like in single player games.

Only problem is its not a single player Elder Scrolls game. And there are many player having issue with this. To the OP you have to watch what your clicking on and just not do the fast click through that many mmo players do. The justice system right now is a mess for player not interested in it. And yeah i was one of those players that liked helping others out and now i don't bother doing it anymore.

Except what you just described is the Justice System working exactly as it should. The fact that you actually have to pay attention to what you click in town and to who you assist does not make it "a mess". It's exactly what it's supposed to be doing.

Having an issue with a system that simply forces you to pay attention to what you're doing in the game is not a design issue. It's a player issue.

Lirkin

Not a player issue.

With lag and such there needs to be a confirmation for something sitting on the table before you steal it at the least.

nerevarine1138

c00lmon wrote: »

Not a player issue.

With lag and such there needs to be a confirmation for something sitting on the table before you steal it at the least.

As I've repeatedly stated, that's not how lag works.

If you aren't highlighting an object on the table when you press E, it does not matter how much lag is happening. You will not interact with that object. You might interact with the thing you had highlighted a few seconds later, but you can't interact with a different object. Lag simply doesn't work that way.

starkerealm

Esha76 wrote: »

I, for one, would like an option or ability to incapacitate an "innocent" who is attacking me due to a failed thieving attempt. Not a huge fan of killing those only trying to protect their stuff... Leave the bounty the same... Pretty sure it would make things more convoluted on a dev side, but it would be nice.

You can, it just comes from class or weapon abilities. Anything that holds, roots, or fears them will give you the opportunity to break line of sight and get away.

starkerealm

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

As I've repeatedly stated, that's not how lag works.

Just keep saying it. I'm sure someday you'll be able to change the world through sheer force of disbelief.

CadenceRowan

I have been playing since beta and early release. I have never had auto-loot turned on, and as soon as the Justice System came into play, I toggled on the option to not kill innocents.

I have on the odd occasion picked something without meaning to, though so far it hasn't been theft, so it's mainly been an annoyance bcs I have some random thing that I did not intend to pick up taking up space in my inventory. If it led to me getting nailed for stealing, I would be more than annoyed.

@ZOS_MandiParker, the fact that it is a small fine/bounty is irrelevant. It's a matter of intent. If I am stealing something, I should know I am stealing something. I don't feel the need for this "non-combat risk", nor do I see it as being equivalent to unexpectedly running into a monster. If I don't want to steal something by accident, I should have that option.

To be honest, I think saying that we don't want to steal by accident is completely in line with @ZOS_MandiParker's statement:

"This system is designed to be augmented in the future with more social elements, and we anticipate that players will become more mindful of the laws in Tamriel."

We are being mindful. We are saying we want to chose whether or not we steal something.

As an aside, I've never found a recipe in a delve; lots of provisioning ingredients, yes, but no recipes. Not saying they aren't there, but it doesn't seem like it's all that common.

abuniffpreub18_ESO

CadenceRowan wrote: »

I have been playing since beta and early release. I have never had auto-loot turned on, and as soon as the Justice System came into play, I toggled on the option to not kill innocents.

I have on the odd occasion picked something without meaning to, though so far it hasn't been theft, so it's mainly been an annoyance bcs I have some random thing that I did not intend to pick up taking up space in my inventory. If it led to me getting nailed for stealing, I would be more than annoyed.

@ZOS_MandiParker, the fact that it is a small fine/bounty is irrelevant. It's a matter of intent. If I am stealing something, I should know I am stealing something. I don't feel the need for this "non-combat risk", nor do I see it as being equivalent to unexpectedly running into a monster. If I don't want to steal something by accident, I should have that option.

To be honest, I think saying that we don't want to steal by accident is completely in line with @ZOS_MandiParker's statement:

"This system is designed to be augmented in the future with more social elements, and we anticipate that players will become more mindful of the laws in Tamriel."

We are being mindful. We are saying we want to chose whether or not we steal something.

As an aside, I've never found a recipe in a delve; lots of provisioning ingredients, yes, but no recipes. Not saying they aren't there, but it doesn't seem like it's all that common.

I agree with everything you said here.

I have found one low level recipe in delves since the justice system was implemented. Probably 98% ingredients and occasionally a piece of low level armor or weapon, contrary to what @ZOS-MandiParker posted:

"Oh! Also, if you have a hard time finding recipes or ingredients, then you should definitely spend more time in Delves and Dungeons -- always unowned and usually stuffed with goodies".

redsteelb16_ESO

The Danger of living in the Big city

The system seems fine ...please do not water it down.

Accidentally stealing something ....so you have to pay 1 or 2 gold as a fine, small slap on the hand.
If you see someone fighting, ask yourself why and who before helping. Just be more aware of your surroundings.

Fleshreaper

CadenceRowan wrote: »

As an aside, I've never found a recipe in a delve; lots of provisioning ingredients, yes, but no recipes. Not saying they aren't there, but it doesn't seem like it's all that common.

Try running them again. There are more of them in there, now. I just ran the path North our of Hallow City including the Vampire grove, and I got close to 10 recipes. Some, I knew. Go back to low level area and kill mobs and loot containers. My thoughts, no, hard evidence to back it up but it seems to me that low level recipes will only be found in areas where the same ingredients can be found.

Divinius

redsteelb16_ESO wrote: »

The system seems fine ...please do not water it down.

The justice system is surprisingly good, but it's not perfect. Anyone that thinks it is perfect is just refusing to see its flaws.

nerevarine1138

abuniffpreub18_ESO wrote: »

CadenceRowan wrote: »

I have been playing since beta and early release. I have never had auto-loot turned on, and as soon as the Justice System came into play, I toggled on the option to not kill innocents.

I have on the odd occasion picked something without meaning to, though so far it hasn't been theft, so it's mainly been an annoyance bcs I have some random thing that I did not intend to pick up taking up space in my inventory. If it led to me getting nailed for stealing, I would be more than annoyed.

@ZOS_MandiParker, the fact that it is a small fine/bounty is irrelevant. It's a matter of intent. If I am stealing something, I should know I am stealing something. I don't feel the need for this "non-combat risk", nor do I see it as being equivalent to unexpectedly running into a monster. If I don't want to steal something by accident, I should have that option.

To be honest, I think saying that we don't want to steal by accident is completely in line with @ZOS_MandiParker's statement:

"This system is designed to be augmented in the future with more social elements, and we anticipate that players will become more mindful of the laws in Tamriel."

We are being mindful. We are saying we want to chose whether or not we steal something.

As an aside, I've never found a recipe in a delve; lots of provisioning ingredients, yes, but no recipes. Not saying they aren't there, but it doesn't seem like it's all that common.

I agree with everything you said here.

I have found one low level recipe in delves since the justice system was implemented. Probably 98% ingredients and occasionally a piece of low level armor or weapon, contrary to what @ZOS-MandiParker posted:

"Oh! Also, if you have a hard time finding recipes or ingredients, then you should definitely spend more time in Delves and Dungeons -- always unowned and usually stuffed with goodies".

Then maybe you've just been unlucky. My provisioner has found a handful of blues, a lot of greens, and a purple recipe without stealing a thing.

Divinius wrote: »

redsteelb16_ESO wrote: »

The system seems fine ...please do not water it down.

The justice system is surprisingly good, but it's not perfect. Anyone that thinks it is perfect is just refusing to see its flaws.

I don't think anyone is saying that it's perfect, but the OP's issue is not a problem with the system.

wraith808

Divinius wrote: »

redsteelb16_ESO wrote: »

The system seems fine ...please do not water it down.

The justice system is surprisingly good, but it's not perfect. Anyone that thinks it is perfect is just refusing to see its flaws.

Most of the flaws are flaws because the system wasn't in at day one. If it had been, then you wouldn't be used to going through people's personal houses and dressers and such. You'd realize that when a quest giver said go steal something- they really meant go steal something.

Divinius

wraith808 wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

redsteelb16_ESO wrote: »

The system seems fine ...please do not water it down.

The justice system is surprisingly good, but it's not perfect. Anyone that thinks it is perfect is just refusing to see its flaws.

Most of the flaws are flaws because the system wasn't in at day one. If it had been, then you wouldn't be used to going through people's personal houses and dressers and such. You'd realize that when a quest giver said go steal something- they really meant go steal something.

The fact that the toggles in the game option that are (supposed to be) designed to prevent you from accidentally committing a crime do not work, is a flaw that has nothing to do with the fact that the system is new, and that is the subject of this thread.

newtinmpls

Cirran wrote: »

As a new player, it seems to me that it would be logical to have venders not be surrounded by things you can accidently steal. What is the point for it to be there? The stuff that is steal able does not represent their whole inventory. Not everything that is shown is even clickable. Why not just put non clickable stuff where you do business with them and put stuff that is pilfer able on tables and racks off to the side? That way normal folks can do business with no fuss and the kleptomaniacs among us can steal to their heats content?

Okay read this again from the point of view of a paranoid shopkeeper.

My desire to immerse myself in the world also includes the idea that the NPCs have motivation for what they do.

nerevarine1138

Divinius wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

redsteelb16_ESO wrote: »

The system seems fine ...please do not water it down.

The justice system is surprisingly good, but it's not perfect. Anyone that thinks it is perfect is just refusing to see its flaws.

Most of the flaws are flaws because the system wasn't in at day one. If it had been, then you wouldn't be used to going through people's personal houses and dressers and such. You'd realize that when a quest giver said go steal something- they really meant go steal something.

The fact that the toggles in the game option that are (supposed to be) designed to prevent you from accidentally committing a crime do not work, is a flaw that has nothing to do with the fact that the system is new, and that is the subject of this thread.

Those toggles were never designed to prevent you from stealing items, only from actually assaulting innocent NPCs.

Divinius

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

redsteelb16_ESO wrote: »

The system seems fine ...please do not water it down.

The justice system is surprisingly good, but it's not perfect. Anyone that thinks it is perfect is just refusing to see its flaws.

Most of the flaws are flaws because the system wasn't in at day one. If it had been, then you wouldn't be used to going through people's personal houses and dressers and such. You'd realize that when a quest giver said go steal something- they really meant go steal something.

The fact that the toggles in the game option that are (supposed to be) designed to prevent you from accidentally committing a crime do not work, is a flaw that has nothing to do with the fact that the system is new, and that is the subject of this thread.

Those toggles were never designed to prevent you from stealing items, only from actually assaulting innocent NPCs.

Setting "Auto-loot Owned Items" to "OFF" does NOT prevent you from auto-looting owned items (when those items are not in containers). In my opinion, that's broken. It could be easily fixed by simply bringing up the same container dialog when trying to loot a non-container owned item.

Setting "Prevent attacking Innocents" to "ON" does NOT prevent you from healing someone that is attacking an innocent, and thereby gaining a bounty as though you attacked them yourself. In my opinion, that's broken. And in this case, even the dev comment indicated that they are investigating correcting this flaw, so even the devs agree that this may be broken.

tallenn

I honestly don't see the point of further discussion on this. ZOS has made their position clear. You might not like it, and I may not like it, but it doesn't look to me like they're going to change their minds. That green post looked pretty well decided to me.

You can waste your time whining about something that's not going to change if you want, but personally, I'm just going to be careful, and live with it.

wraith808

Divinius wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

redsteelb16_ESO wrote: »

The system seems fine ...please do not water it down.

The justice system is surprisingly good, but it's not perfect. Anyone that thinks it is perfect is just refusing to see its flaws.

Most of the flaws are flaws because the system wasn't in at day one. If it had been, then you wouldn't be used to going through people's personal houses and dressers and such. You'd realize that when a quest giver said go steal something- they really meant go steal something.

The fact that the toggles in the game option that are (supposed to be) designed to prevent you from accidentally committing a crime do not work, is a flaw that has nothing to do with the fact that the system is new, and that is the subject of this thread.

Did I put most in there? (Checks my quote). Yup, I did.

Fleshreaper

tallenn wrote: »

I honestly don't see the point of further discussion on this. ZOS has made their position clear. You might not like it, and I may not like it, but it doesn't look to me like they're going to change their minds. That green post looked pretty well decided to me.

You can waste your time whining about something that's not going to change if you want, but personally, I'm just going to be careful, and live with it.

One Mod =/= All of ZOS! And a forum moderator, I'd be willing to bet, does not make the design meetings. Do you honestly think that those who make the designing choices don't ever read the forums?

I have seen very little whining. So, you must be of the opinion that if someone disagrees with you, they are whining.

nerevarine1138

Fleshreaper wrote: »

tallenn wrote: »

I honestly don't see the point of further discussion on this. ZOS has made their position clear. You might not like it, and I may not like it, but it doesn't look to me like they're going to change their minds. That green post looked pretty well decided to me.

You can waste your time whining about something that's not going to change if you want, but personally, I'm just going to be careful, and live with it.

One Mod =/= All of ZOS! And a forum moderator, I'd be willing to bet, does not make the design meetings. Do you honestly think that those who make the designing choices don't ever read the forums?

I have seen very little whining. So, you must be of the opinion that if someone disagrees with you, they are whining.

The ZO comment in this thread is not a moderator. It's directly from a developer.

And yes, if you see something posted in green on this forum, it represents all of ZO. It doesn't get posted here if it doesn't reflect the company line.

gard

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Accidentally stealing a “takeable item” (an owned drink or apple on the table behind the merchant) produces a relative small bounty, and if you are intentionally avoiding criminal activity then you likely won’t suffer many consequences aside from paying a handful of gold that’s appropriate to your level. For an accidental and uncommon pick-up, it is a minor fine and you’re back to your life as an upstanding citizen. This is relatively uncommon, and so it would be a low risk and no reward mode of gameplay for these players.

When you are actually a criminal with an inventory full of stolen goodies and you accidentally pick up an owned apple near a guard rather than speaking with an npc, that’s when you get slammed and your goodies get taken by the guard, and you get hit with a massive bounty. This is a consequence of the system, though – it is a system of high risk and high rewards. Reducing the aspect of risk during the peak moments prior to reward would invalidate much of the current system. The system is part of the world and not just when it’s convenient – that’s how it is in the Elder Scrolls series.

How about when I've been out killing bandits and looting their camps at the behest of the local town's constabulary.
I end up with an inventory full of "stolen" goods that I've liberated from enemies of the town. Why would the town guards care? "I hereby fine or kill you for the crime of confiscating goods from criminals!"

Fleshreaper

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The ZO comment in this thread is not a moderator. It's directly from a developer.

And yes, if you see something posted in green on this forum, it represents all of ZO. It doesn't get posted here if it doesn't reflect the company line.

Look again, @nerevarine1138 . The green text came from a mod, right under the name. And we all know that stances never change. Look at how many CPs were to be give to VR14s in the begining, that changed. My point still stands. I do realize that at the time the mod was in fact stating ZOS stance, at the time being.

Nebthet78

redsteelb16_ESO wrote: »

The Danger of living in the Big city

The system seems fine ...please do not water it down.

Accidentally stealing something ....so you have to pay 1 or 2 gold as a fine, small slap on the hand.
If you see someone fighting, ask yourself why and who before helping. Just be more aware of your surroundings.

If you are a higher level character, it is an automatic 89+G fine. It is only 1-2g if you are a new character.

This may not be much to some people, but for those saving up to buy mats and gear from other people, it is a PITA.

---

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Those toggles were never designed to prevent you from stealing items, only from actually assaulting innocent NPCs.

And yet those do not even work properly. If they did, my vampire would not be getting the Feed on option every time I am in sneak mode behind an NPC in town.
You also should not be able to pickpocket someone when that option is selected.

This system also does not prevent "innocent" NPCs from attacking you, and you can't defend yourself against them unless you have a familiar to fight for you.

---

As for the person having issues finding Recipes. I am finding they drop from enemies rather frequently. I have found a lot of green and blue ones this way.

Purples Recipes and Motifs I am finding are in bags out in the world mostly and in the few places in town where you CAN loot without stealing. I have found 3 of them this way.
Funny thing is, I have found more Purple Recipes since the release of the Justice System than I found in the previous 10 months of game play.

nerevarine1138

Fleshreaper wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The ZO comment in this thread is not a moderator. It's directly from a developer.

And yes, if you see something posted in green on this forum, it represents all of ZO. It doesn't get posted here if it doesn't reflect the company line.

Look again, @nerevarine1138 . The green text came from a mod, right under the name. And we all know that stances never change. Look at how many CPs were to be give to VR14s in the begining, that changed. My point still stands. I do realize that at the time the mod was in fact stating ZOS stance, at the time being.

Read her signature again:
Mandi Parker
Systems Designer
Deputy of Justice

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Fleshreaper wrote: »

tallenn wrote: »

I honestly don't see the point of further discussion on this. ZOS has made their position clear. You might not like it, and I may not like it, but it doesn't look to me like they're going to change their minds. That green post looked pretty well decided to me.

You can waste your time whining about something that's not going to change if you want, but personally, I'm just going to be careful, and live with it.

One Mod =/= All of ZOS! And a forum moderator, I'd be willing to bet, does not make the design meetings. Do you honestly think that those who make the designing choices don't ever read the forums?

I have seen very little whining. So, you must be of the opinion that if someone disagrees with you, they are whining.

The ZO comment in this thread is not a moderator. It's directly from a developer.

And yes, if you see something posted in green on this forum, it represents all of ZO. It doesn't get posted here if it doesn't reflect the company line.

And some posts unquestioningly push the company line that aren't ZOS posts, don't they?

abuniffpreub18_ESO

Nebthet78 posted:
"As for the person having issues finding Recipes. I am finding they drop from enemies rather frequently. I have found a lot of green and blue ones this way.

Purples Recipes and Motifs I am finding are in bags out in the world mostly and in the few places in town where you CAN loot without stealing. I have found 3 of them this way.
Funny thing is, I have found more Purple Recipes since the release of the Justice System than I found in the previous 10 months of game play".

That would be me. Just out of curiosity I spent the last couple hours going through dungeons and houses etc. I have a level 15 in Auridon I have been working on. I went through Bewan, lots of barrels, sacks, crates and enemies there. Out of the barrels etc the best thing I got was a blue shield. As far as from enemies a couple low level weapons, mostly junk. But there were plenty of ingredients in those barrels, sacks, etc.

I also went to some houses and things out in the world. Some stuff I looted, no one around, and some wasn't owned. So after a couple hours of running around not one recipe. I'll try a higher level zone but I think I'd be wasting my time. And before anybody says it's because it's a low level zone I found tons of recipes in the same places I looked today before the justice system started.

newtinmpls

abuniffpreub18_ESO wrote: »

I found tons of recipes in the same places I looked today before the justice system started.

That's why I started doing provisioning writs.

Jeremy

Adoryn wrote: »

So just in the past couple hours, the justice system that I've wanted nothing to do with is making a mess out of my game. First, I thought I'd help heal someone who was fighting the werewolf (for the quest) in Daggerfall, not realizing that the reason they were failing was because there was a Daggerfall guard in the mix. Luckily, I died and didn't take the rep hit because of that. Ok, so now I guess I won't help any of my 'allies' which is a pity because some folks who choose to be healers really like helping others when they can, especially newbies. Heck, for all I know, she probably accidentally hit the guard while trying to attack the werewolf.

Shortly afterward, I was trying to click on an npc merchant to check their wares, but accidentally right clicked an item on the cart behind them and stole it... no dialog box confirming or anything and now there's a bounty on my head. Sooo sooo sooo not cool at all for that to happen so easily. I also almost accidentally stole while trying to talk to the banker moments before, but since it was a chest, I was able to cancel. Seriously? Honest players shouldn't have to walk on eggshells and get tagged as a thief when they ARE NOT. The justice system is failing when it works against folks like this, unless you want to say that Tamriel's system is quite crooked and fond of incriminating/framing innocent citizens.

I want to opt out so badly, some sort of toggle, because this really isn't my play style and I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server. Please remedy this, ZOS!

Edit: Title for clarification -- also, I want to point out that I'm not looking to remove the justice system at all, but I do want it to be implemented in a way that honors the choices players make!

It's an easy mistake to make.

On several occasions I've accidentally attacked guards, NPCs...or clicked a lockbox. It's killed me and cost me gold. But I've learned to accept it because it makes you more cautious of your environments. So in my opinion the immersion it brings is worth the occasional blunder that results from the sensitivity of the system. So I'm fine with it as is.

I usually don't play as thieves on video games. This game is the exception. It is too much fun plundering houses and robbing NPCs. You are really missing out if you don't do any of it. So I would at least give it a try before you turn it off.

Chuggernaut

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Oh! Also, if you have a hard time finding recipes or ingredients, then you should definitely spend more time in Delves and Dungeons -- always unowned and usually stuffed with goodies.

They seem packed now with loot! Multiple containers and kills had 3+ unique items on them.