Players Need More Control Over Justice System Choices

Tandor · March 2015

Nebthet78 wrote: »

They need to ensure in the future, that those who do not want to participate in the PVP portion of the Justice System are not forced to do so while still being able to participate fully in the PvE aspects of the Justice System.

My addition in bold italics.

The rest of your post was both insightful and awesome, and I agreed with it. Sorry I could only endorse one of those three

!

Ley · March 2015

I think this may be note worthy, because I've seen multiple people mention that you can auto loot stolen goods and they're wrong..

I always have auto loot on and if you attempt to loot an owned container (steal from a container) it still brings up the loot box and you have to press E or R to steal the items. In other words, auto loot does NOT work when stealing.

You can still however accidentally loot items not in containers accidentally without any prompt to ensure your intentions, regardless of whether or not you have auto loot on.

Flynch · March 2015

Ley wrote: »

I think this may be note worthy, because I've seen multiple people mention that you can auto loot stolen goods and they're wrong..

I always have auto loot on and if you attempt to loot an owned container (steal from a container) it still brings up the loot box and you have to press E or R to steal the items. In other words, auto loot does NOT work when stealing.

You can still however accidentally loot items not in containers accidentally without any prompt to ensure your intentions, regardless of whether or not you have auto loot on.

I believe they are referring to the items out in the open, like apples, armour etc etc. They just slip straight into your pocket with no pop-up.

The 'other' auto-loot option is for stealing and yeah it woks absolutely fine.

edit: typo

Ley · March 2015

Flynch wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

I think this may be note worthy, because I've seen multiple people mention that you can auto loot stolen goods and they're wrong..

I always have auto loot on and if you attempt to loot an owned container (steal from a container) it still brings up the loot box and you have to press E or R to steal the items. In other words, auto loot does NOT work when stealing.

You can still however accidentally loot items not in containers accidentally without any prompt to ensure your intentions, regardless of whether or not you have auto loot on.

I believe they are referring to the items out in the open, like apples, armour etc etc. They just slip straight into your pocket with no pop-up.

The 'other' auto-loot option is for stealing and yeah it woks absolutely fine.

edit: typo

Yea after re-reading the top post I see you're right, I skimmed the first time. Doesn't hurt to put the info out there I suppose.

starkerealm · March 2015

Ley wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

I think this may be note worthy, because I've seen multiple people mention that you can auto loot stolen goods and they're wrong..

I always have auto loot on and if you attempt to loot an owned container (steal from a container) it still brings up the loot box and you have to press E or R to steal the items. In other words, auto loot does NOT work when stealing.

You can still however accidentally loot items not in containers accidentally without any prompt to ensure your intentions, regardless of whether or not you have auto loot on.

I believe they are referring to the items out in the open, like apples, armour etc etc. They just slip straight into your pocket with no pop-up.

The 'other' auto-loot option is for stealing and yeah it woks absolutely fine.

edit: typo

Yea after re-reading the top post I see you're right, I skimmed the first time. Doesn't hurt to put the info out there I suppose.

It's true. It's also good that there's a distinction between autolooting on owned and unowned containers. Meaning you can further differentiate them by having unowned containers autoloot and owned ones pop up a prompt. The real problem is the random miscellaneous items scattered around the world getting instantly pocketed on one keystroke regardless of the player's wishes.

Nebthet78 · March 2015

Tandor wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

They need to ensure in the future, that those who do not want to participate in the PVP portion of the Justice System are not forced to do so while still being able to participate fully in the PvE aspects of the Justice System.

My addition in bold italics.

The rest of your post was both insightful and awesome, and I agreed with it. Sorry I could only endorse one of those three !

I gave you an awesome and put that part in, with your name beside it as I just didn't complete my thought when typing out that sentence.

newtinmpls · March 2015

Ley wrote: »

[
Miss-clicking is a fairly easy mistake to make. There are lots of reasons why someone may accidentally press E, and not get the result that they intended.

I guess what is confusing to me here (and anyone feel free to explain it to me) is the idea that Pressing a key is involved here. I was presuming that this was a left-mouse-click issue (as I can see a hand/finger twitch could be an issue).

But seriously - an actual key stroke?

Maybe that's why it's not been an issue for me. I hate the "e to interact" and always immediately change it to 'spacebar' when rolling up characters. Yes, a la Morrowind.

Not that I don't have problems with the justice system. Yesterday I tried to pickpocket a guarde. Did not go well - I immediately was "kill on sight" so I just stood and took it, resurrected at a wayshrine as "upstanding" again. I assume they took the fine from my corpse, but the character was only 8th level so I really didn't notice it.

starkerealm · March 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

I guess what is confusing to me here (and anyone feel free to explain it to me) is the idea that Pressing a key is involved here. I was presuming that this was a left-mouse-click issue (as I can see a hand/finger twitch could be an issue).

But seriously - an actual key stroke?

The default for interact is E. I don't usually rebind it because it's useful there. Again, I've never gotten the accidental stealing, but I have accidentally interacted with things because I was typing or turned away from the screen to deal with a cat and pressed E instead of W, or pressed Q instead of W (Which is the default quickslot key... in case you rebound that too.)

Of course, the other issue I've seen first hand is where E becomes semi-responsive... and, again, no one's responding to say if that's just me. But the first couple key presses don't always register. Resulting in situations where I have to tap a couple times in quick succession to get a response. I've never accidentally grabbed something I shouldn't, that way, but it's certainly a possible outcome when NPCs start moving and instantly change their interact frame exposing owned items where they used to be.

EDIT: But I am growing to hate that Dunmer in Davon's Watch will, by default, go into his dialog about what a bank is, if you accidentally press E twice while trying to talk to him. Forcing you to quit out and start the dialg over... unless the E becomes semi-responsive again requiring multiple strokes which may or may not let you pick a bank... and I keep forgetting to tell him to "shank off" and just go talk to the Argonian because of habit.

WhimsyDragon · March 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

I guess what is confusing to me here (and anyone feel free to explain it to me) is the idea that Pressing a key is involved here. I was presuming that this was a left-mouse-click issue (as I can see a hand/finger twitch could be an issue).

I'm still a mouse-clicker for NPC interactions personally out of MMO-habit so it seems like it's an issue for a good amount of folks either way.

DaniAngione · March 2015

The best thing that ever happened to me in ESO was when I got distracted and killed by a guard with a 80k bounty.

80k. Poof.

Did I rage? No. Did I screamed at someone? Nope. Did I stopped playing or made a rant post in the forums? Nay.

I smiled, and I was so damn happy about it... Happy because ZOS was bold enough to add TRUE risk to the game, something we only see in EVE Online nowadays though it was common back in the old & good days (Ultima Online, etc...)

Risk... True risk... intense, powerful risk.
When you decide to break the law and become a criminal, you must know that you're risking that much.

What have I done? Well, I kept stealing... and got more than 200k back already...

So, please, ZOS.... Don't ever nerf that. Crime isn't the best or only way. If someone goes that way, they must not be weak. The weak shall fail, and that's how it is.

starkerealm · March 2015

DaniAngione wrote: »

When you decide to break the law and become a criminal, you must know that you're risking that much.

And when the game decides you want to be a criminal... then what?

DaniAngione · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

DaniAngione wrote: »

When you decide to break the law and become a criminal, you must know that you're risking that much.

And when the game decides you want to be a criminal... then what?

A guard will approach and you'll pay a really small and despicable amount and all will be well.
As ZOS stated, you can block a greater bounty by activating the "don't attack civillians" UI option... Accidental theft is quite rare (unless you're a click spammer, never happened to me) and the bounty is little...

I'm sorry, but if you do become a criminal with huge bounties and such, don't tell me the 'game wanted' that.............

starkerealm · March 2015

DaniAngione wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

DaniAngione wrote: »

When you decide to break the law and become a criminal, you must know that you're risking that much.

And when the game decides you want to be a criminal... then what?

A guard will approach and you'll pay a really small and despicable amount and all will be well.
As ZOS stated, you can block a greater bounty by activating the "don't attack civillians" UI option... Accidental theft is quite rare (unless you're a click spammer, never happened to me) and the bounty is little...

I'm sorry, but if you do become a criminal with huge bounties and such, don't tell me the 'game wanted' that.............

Might want to do a search on the heal bounties. It makes for some entertaining reading.

That said, assuming the newbies who are asking for help aren't lying... because, you know, new to the game so we can't trust anything they say, right? There is an issue with players ending up in over their head before they get a handle on the system.

Contraptions · March 2015

Alternatively, the devs could rebind/create a "steal/lockpick/pickpocket" key to be different from the default interact/search "E" key. It's clear these two interactions are for different purposes and lead to different outcomes thus there really isn't a reason for them to be using the same button in the first place.

starkerealm · March 2015

Contraptions wrote: »

Alternatively, the devs could rebind/create a "steal/lockpick/pickpocket" key to be different from the default interact/search "E" key. It's clear these two interactions are for different purposes and lead to different outcomes thus there really isn't a reason for them to be using the same button in the first place.

XBone/PS4 controllers.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

DaniAngione wrote: »

When you decide to break the law and become a criminal, you must know that you're risking that much.

And when the game decides you want to be a criminal... then what?

The game doesn't decide anything. The player's lack of attention did.

There seems to be this grand delusion among some that everyone is constantly in danger of stealing everything in sight as a normal matter of business. This is literally the only place I've seen anyone complain about it, and you get slapped with a miniscule bounty if it even happens. So who cares?

The devs have laid out very clear reasoning as to why they want this system to be fully integrated in to the world of Tamriel. It makes sense that it's here. It's an integral part of every Elder Scrolls game.

This community drives me absolutely nuts. People constantly whine that they want this game to set itself apart from other MMOs, and when we get one of the things that is absolutely unique to ESO, people complain about it's actual existence.

XBone/PS4 controllers.

And actually, no. The key to interact has always been the key for pickpocketing, stealing, etc. The only thing that changes is the context in which it is used, which makes perfect sense.

starkerealm · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

XBone/PS4 controllers.

And actually, no. The key to interact has always been the key for pickpocketing, stealing, etc. The only thing that changes is the context in which it is used, which makes perfect sense.

Yes, because no Elder Scrolls game ever used F1 to steal and Space to interact as the default scheme, that would just be weird. No, it's always been this way, and so it always shall be this way... except in ESO and Skyrim where it's E by default. Or, you know Arena where stealing defaults to P but interacting in general is a contextual prompt on the mouse.

No, the decision to bind the theft and interact keys to the same button had absolutely nothing to do with the franchise moving to consoles.

But, you know about that because none of us know where your name came from.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

XBone/PS4 controllers.

And actually, no. The key to interact has always been the key for pickpocketing, stealing, etc. The only thing that changes is the context in which it is used, which makes perfect sense.

Yes, because no Elder Scrolls game ever used F1 to steal and Space to interact as the default scheme, that would just be weird. No, it's always been this way, and so it always shall be this way... except in ESO and Skyrim where it's E by default. Or, you know Arena where stealing defaults to P but interacting in general is a contextual prompt on the mouse.

No, the decision to bind the theft and interact keys to the same button had absolutely nothing to do with the franchise moving to consoles.

But, you know about that because none of us know where your name came from.

I should have been more clear about "since Morrowind", as that's the first Elder Scrolls game that had mass appeal. And if you're really claiming that Morrowind (which was more or less a port to the consoles) changed its control scheme for consoles, you're deluding yourself. It's always made more sense that there be one key for interacting with the world and that those interactions change based on context.

starkerealm · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I should have been more clear about "since Morrowind", as that's the first Elder Scrolls game that had mass appeal. And if you're really claiming that Morrowind (which was more or less a port to the consoles) changed its control scheme for consoles, you're deluding yourself.

No, you're probably right, the decision to move to an interface that had a maximum of 16 buttons probably had absolutely nothing to do with them halving the number of keybinds from previous games.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's always made more sense that there be one key for interacting with the world and that those interactions change based on context.

Which is hilarious, because that is exactly what Daggerfall and Arena did. Only, you know, they felt the need to split theft off into a separate category. Hell, Arena actually simplified it to the point where punching someone in the face and talking to them was the same interact... and yet, theft got a separate button. You don't suppose, maybe, there was a reason for that? I mean, other than a vague, "as it has been, so shall it be, except on Tuesdays?"

Ley · March 2015

DaniAngione wrote: »

The best thing that ever happened to me in ESO was when I got distracted and killed by a guard with a 80k bounty.

80k. Poof.

Did I rage? No. Did I screamed at someone? Nope. Did I stopped playing or made a rant post in the forums? Nay.

I smiled, and I was so damn happy about it... Happy because ZOS was bold enough to add TRUE risk to the game, something we only see in EVE Online nowadays though it was common back in the old & good days (Ultima Online, etc...)

Risk... True risk... intense, powerful risk.
When you decide to break the law and become a criminal, you must know that you're risking that much.

What have I done? Well, I kept stealing... and got more than 200k back already...

So, please, ZOS.... Don't ever nerf that. Crime isn't the best or only way. If someone goes that way, they must not be weak. The weak shall fail, and that's how it is.

I enjoyed reading this.

I miss an old mmo I used to play with open world pvp where if you went on a killing spree you were at risk of dropping some of your equipped gear if you were killed. Didn't stop us from going on killing sprees or sometimes accidentally killing a group of newbies in town and getting pwned by the guards, dropping all our gear on the ground.

On a side note, you know that if you bank your money, then guards can't take it away from you.

DaniAngione · March 2015

Ley wrote: »

On a side note, you know that if you bank your money, then guards can't take it away from you.

I know

But where's the thrill then? :P

Cirran · March 2015

As a new player, it seems to me that it would be logical to have venders not be surrounded by things you can accidently steal. What is the point for it to be there? The stuff that is steal able does not represent their whole inventory. Not everything that is shown is even clickable. Why not just put non clickable stuff where you do business with them and put stuff that is pilfer able on tables and racks off to the side? That way normal folks can do business with no fuss and the kleptomaniacs among us can steal to their heats content?
Side question, after reading ZOS's official reply to this thread I am confused. What does fighting a mob that surprised you have to do with having a setting where you can turn off stealing anything?

Cirran

Kingdinguhling · March 2015

I do believe they need to fix the NPC attack switch in setting. if for some reason I steal something and I need to defend myself I should be able to do so. not have to spam AOE abilities and hope I kill the NPC. as soon as I am engaged it needs to register it and allow me to attack and engage.

as for accidental theft I think with armor, weapons, breads, drinks, fruit, on tables they should prompt like baskets and drawers. so its a two step process.

Mumnoch · March 2015

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

We have discussed having a “no theft” type of option in the UI for players who never want to steal owned items. While this option is not consistent with the Elder Scrolls, we do understand some of the frustration with accidental looting, though we consider Justice to be an integral part of Tamriel.

Accidentally stealing a “takeable item” (an owned drink or apple on the table behind the merchant) produces a relative small bounty, and if you are intentionally avoiding criminal activity then you likely won’t suffer many consequences aside from paying a handful of gold that’s appropriate to your level. For an accidental and uncommon pick-up, it is a minor fine and you’re back to your life as an upstanding citizen. This is relatively uncommon, and so it would be a low risk and no reward mode of gameplay for these players.

When you are actually a criminal with an inventory full of stolen goodies and you accidentally pick up an owned apple near a guard rather than speaking with an npc, that’s when you get slammed and your goodies get taken by the guard, and you get hit with a massive bounty. This is a consequence of the system, though – it is a system of high risk and high rewards. Reducing the aspect of risk during the peak moments prior to reward would invalidate much of the current system. The system is part of the world and not just when it’s convenient – that’s how it is in the Elder Scrolls series.

Further, having a “No Theft” toggle would remove interactivity in the world and it would eliminate one of the few non-combat risks that people might encounter. Sometimes even the most careful player will run into a hostile monster by accident (and sometimes they get killed by this), but we do not allow players to toggle off hostility. That would be quite odd, right?

This system is designed to be augmented in the future with more social elements, and we anticipate that players will become more mindful of the laws in Tamriel. Avoiding murder as a toggle was a concession given because it could result in a massive fine and possibly death even if you otherwise play as an upstanding citizen because the bounty is so much higher than simple theft. The option is default Off because we want people to know what their options are in the world before they assume that those options don’t exist. Auto-looting stolen items is also a toggle because we wanted to allow you to specifically confirm your action to steal an individual item, as auto-looting many items at once could be as financially devastating as murder. Both of these opt-outs were specifically designed only to help players avoid the harshest penalties for truly accidental actions. (The unintentional criminal healing issue is a separate thing really, and we’re considering some options for it.)

Justice as a fully integrated system like Champion, Combat, and Crafting. It is critical to future content in the game, and we want players to learn how to live with the underlying rules of the system before introducing heavier mechanics and related content. Having said that, we will still continue to monitor friction points for players and address specific areas of concern, so please continue to report things that cause frustration and we will absolutely look into these issues as we develop the system further.

Oh! Also, if you have a hard time finding recipes or ingredients, then you should definitely spend more time in Delves and Dungeons -- always unowned and usually stuffed with goodies.

Well said.

Esha76 · March 2015

I, for one, would like an option or ability to incapacitate an "innocent" who is attacking me due to a failed thieving attempt. Not a huge fan of killing those only trying to protect their stuff... Leave the bounty the same... Pretty sure it would make things more convoluted on a dev side, but it would be nice.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Esha76 wrote: »

I, for one, would like an option or ability to incapacitate an "innocent" who is attacking me due to a failed thieving attempt. Not a huge fan of killing those only trying to protect their stuff... Leave the bounty the same... Pretty sure it would make things more convoluted on a dev side, but it would be nice.

Well, you can't exactly incapacitate them, but you can stun/immobilize them and run out of range if you don't want to kill them.

Theosis · March 2015

Here is my thoughts..

If I can heal somebody attacking a guard, why cant I heal the guard?

If the world going to be completely immersive then lets go the whole way. Let me heal the monsters and bandits along with my friends. Let me attack everything in the game. There are a few holes that could be patched.

However then the game would be a true pvp manic crazy world full of awesome and who wants that?

Castagere · March 2015

Govalon wrote: »

Welcome to Elder Scrolls. This is exactly how it is supposed to work if the intention is to make thieving-system like in single player games.

Only problem is its not a single player Elder Scrolls game. And there are many player having issue with this. To the OP you have to watch what your clicking on and just not do the fast click through that many mmo players do. The justice system right now is a mess for player not interested in it. And yeah i was one of those players that liked helping others out and now i don't bother doing it anymore.

Merlin13KAGL · March 2015

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Accidentally stealing a “takeable item” (an owned drink or apple on the table behind the merchant) produces a relative small bounty, and if you are intentionally avoiding criminal activity then you likely won’t suffer many consequences aside from paying a handful of gold that’s appropriate to your level. For an accidental and uncommon pick-up, it is a minor fine and you’re back to your life as an upstanding citizen. This is relatively uncommon, and so it would be a low risk and no reward mode of gameplay for these players.

When you are actually a criminal with an inventory full of stolen goodies and you accidentally pick up an owned apple near a guard rather than speaking with an npc, that’s when you get slammed and your goodies get taken by the guard, and you get hit with a massive bounty. This is a consequence of the system, though – it is a system of high risk and high rewards. Reducing the aspect of risk during the peak moments prior to reward would invalidate much of the current system. The system is part of the world and not just when it’s convenient – that’s how it is in the Elder Scrolls series.

Further, having a “No Theft” toggle would remove interactivity in the world and it would eliminate one of the few non-combat risks that people might encounter. Sometimes even the most careful player will run into a hostile monster by accident (and sometimes they get killed by this), but we do not allow players to toggle off hostility. That would be quite odd, right?

This system is designed to be augmented in the future with more social elements, and we anticipate that players will become more mindful of the laws in Tamriel. Avoiding murder as a toggle was a concession given because it could result in a massive fine and possibly death even if you otherwise play as an upstanding citizen because the bounty is so much higher than simple theft. The option is default Off because we want people to know what their options are in the world before they assume that those options don’t exist. Auto-looting stolen items is also a toggle because we wanted to allow you to specifically confirm your action to steal an individual item, as auto-looting many items at once could be as financially devastating as murder. Both of these opt-outs were specifically designed only to help players avoid the harshest penalties for truly accidental actions. (The unintentional criminal healing issue is a separate thing really, and we’re considering some options for it.)

@ZOS_MandiParker , understandable that it needs to part of the world. The non-container pickups are essentially auto-looted, though.

While mostly avoidable, this was arguably a stupid design even in the standalones. There is vast difference between picking something up (with the ability to set it back where you found it) vs placing it neatly in your satchel.

It was absurd as far back as Morrowind when you would be intending to interact with a vendor, accidentally interact with the apple on the counter instead and suddenly have the whole town wanting to beat you do death.

I realize it's not that way here, and I get that it provides more opportunity for that search and seizure when you have a bag full of goodies not your own.

Complete opt out should never be an option, for the reasons you state above. One needs to be aware of their surroundings, after all.

I would like to see the bounty not apply to friendly fire in enemy/NPC fight type areas, though. I realize you can toggle off murder, but a hit me once "Knock it off," hit me twice "That was on purpose" in those types of situations would be a nice addition.

If we're in a fight together and I step in front of your sword, I expect to get stabbed, and I do not expect you to feel bad about it, nor responsible for it.

Fleshreaper · March 2015

DaniAngione wrote: »

The best thing that ever happened to me in ESO was when I got distracted and killed by a guard with a 80k bounty.

80k. Poof.

Did I rage? No. Did I screamed at someone? Nope. Did I stopped playing or made a rant post in the forums? Nay.

I smiled, and I was so damn happy about it... Happy because ZOS was bold enough to add TRUE risk to the game, something we only see in EVE Online nowadays though it was common back in the old & good days (Ultima Online, etc...)

Risk... True risk... intense, powerful risk.
When you decide to break the law and become a criminal, you must know that you're risking that much.

What have I done? Well, I kept stealing... and got more than 200k back already...

So, please, ZOS.... Don't ever nerf that. Crime isn't the best or only way. If someone goes that way, they must not be weak. The weak shall fail, and that's how it is.

No, one is asking for it to be nerfed, at least not here. No, one is asking for it to be removed. Very few are asking for an option to totally opt out. As you stated, you made a conscious choice to steal items, there for you accepted the risk that came along with that actions. Here is the problem some people do not want to steal. They have no intentions of stealing anything, maybe it's a lore thing, maybe it's an issue with blood pressure from the added excitement, maybe it's just not their thing. The reason why is irrelevant but players feel like this is being forced upon them and tricking them into steal when they had no intentions of that. The NPC moved, they had a lag spike, or what ever, again irrelevant.

Couple of ideas, again.
1. Toggle stealing off switch - Opt out of the shadier side of the game - Some people think this would be abused. By allowing you to look in a container without getting a bounty. However you can already look in containers without stealing or bounty. No, this option more than likely will just make containers and owned items appear like a table or some other item that you can't even interact with.
2. Stealth to steal - Change the mechanics of the Justice System so that you can't even steal unless you are in stealth. This would stop accidental stealing. As you have to consciously put your character into stealth mode. Yes, there is an addon that will basically do the same thing. Which means it wouldn't be hard to put in place. Having it in game verse an addon means that it's there for the console users (who can't run addons) and will not be out dated when upgrades to the game come out.
3. New idea* Split the interact keys - Make a key for talking to people and a completely different key to interact with objects but allow players to double bind the "E" key. Example: "E" is key bound to the interact with objects. "R" is key bound to talk to NPC
4. Also new idea* Make players that are wanted by the guards, have the RED ora. Still the problem with this if my understand is correct. Would be if a totally different player is questing in town and they have to fight one of the NPCs for the quest and they lay down some AoE or healing and the RED player runs through. Player A is now a RED player too and attacked by the guards. I see this as a way to grief and harass players.

I think option 1 would take to much time to develop, so I'm not so much in favor of that. But option 2 should be easy enough, considering that it's currently a player made addon. Option 3 would probably not take too long to change over. And those that want it the same could key bind it that way.

With all of this said, it still in no way shape or form changes the Justice System. The Justice System is still in place and players that like it will still be able to enjoy it, un-affected.