Bolt Escape

Kuro1n

k2blader wrote: »

Kuro1n wrote: »

I fought a sorc today, stacked shields and bolting around. There was no stopping him let me tell you. People saying sorcs are weak in 1.6 have no idea what they are talking about.

How much actual damage was he doing to you?

Funny that shield stacking plus "bolting around" equals sorcs being "strong." I might consider the possibility if you, and a whole bunch of other people, were saying the above *and* that you got your faces melted off.

Pretty *** much. I took a overload light attack to the face for 7.5k and then I noped out of there with cloak while some of the others died.

Another time it didn't end up so well and I was out of stamina:

Lied

The cost increase mechanic really doesn't work out so well, IMO. It'll be too few BE's for some simple builds and ultimately way too many for others, especially after more CP. I desperately wish they had some other mechanic to work with like cooldowns with charges or something. Anything really, no one on either side of the fence is ever happy with BE.

Pancake-Tragedy

Lied wrote: »

The cost increase mechanic really doesn't work out so well, IMO. It'll be too few BE's for some simple builds and ultimately way too many for others, especially after more CP. I desperately wish they had some other mechanic to work with like cooldowns with charges or something. Anything really, no one on either side of the fence is ever happy with BE.

Adding cooldowns is a step in the wrong direction in my opinion.

Ezareth

Germtrocity wrote: »

I have not personally tested anything yet, as I am currently under account suspension, but I feel the need to say some things about bolt escape, more importantly the streak morph.

Since it no longer offers a soft CC, the use of it as an offensive CC is becoming a bit of a joke. In 1.5 the only reason I preferred streak to ball of lightning was because of the possibility to be able to turn my magicka (at a high expense) into a way to keep my enemies suppressed if they were not smart with their stamina usage, and as a way to build ultimate.

With the removal of both the ultimate gain from streaking through enemies, and now the application of a hard CC with streak, I feel that it has become relatively useless - let's be honest, the damage output is pure garbage when faced with not only the increased 50% cost, but even the base cost. It was pathetic damage.

Not only does it now deal ineffective damage, applies a hard CC worse than that of a crystal frag proc, and with less of a CC time, but it offers no utility to make it worth using.

Now sorcerers do not have any effective means of keeping their opponent CC'd for any dangerous period of time effectively. DK gets stone fist, a 3~ second knockdown, Templars get their thrown spear, another 3~ or so second knockdown, and I have not played on a NB so I am unaware of what the names of their CCs are.
To expand on this, being CC'd by a sorcerer is no real danger now, as the 3 or so second CC duration on other classes is pretty necessary to CC break out of, as a lot of burst damage can be done in that time. Now if you fight a sorcerer they have no meaningful CC to threaten your life with. (objective opinion incoming) From the sounds of it, sorcerers no longer have a meaningful CC that is really life threatening. I often sit for a moment when I get knocked down by crystal frags because the CC associated with it is so minor that I really feel almost no threat from taking the beating, as I would rather save my stamina for a longer knockdown time.

Depending on how it plays when I am able to login again, I feel as if I will be sorely disappointed in the changes to the sorcerer class in 1.6.
The soft CC on streak was one of the only reasons to even use streak in my opinion, and I have listed all the reasons for this. Without it, I think that any CC from the sorcerer class is non life threatening in the least.
Streak was the one ability that made it a real danger when fighting other sorcerers, as there was always the fear of using your stamina incorrectly and becoming caught up in your own wasteful resource management and dying to a more skilled player.

Streak added a degree of artful play to the mix as it offered a direct magicka to CC conversion ratio - now it is a shame because we have no long lasting CCs that are economical to use (to the best of my knowledge).

As for the supposed unnerf to cost reduction, I feel as if something may need to be addressed due to the indirect 10% increase in cost nerf, but I will have to login and do some testing on my wonderful sorcerer to get a clearer understanding.

For the increased port distance, I disagree.

That is all I have to say on the matter, giving my personal opinion and views on the skill and how the sorcerer class works.

Some great points @Germtrocity I agree with pretty much everything you said (although pre 1.6 laying down through a Crystal Fragment stun could be dangerous because your opponent was rewarded with 15% crit against you while you were down).

I think Streak is now a total joke ability where before it was actually a viable alternative to Ball of Lightning. Giving everyone in essence "free" CC immunity at a high expense to yourself is just stupid. There is just very little reason to go streaking through a group of people right now.

Lied

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Lied wrote: »

The cost increase mechanic really doesn't work out so well, IMO. It'll be too few BE's for some simple builds and ultimately way too many for others, especially after more CP. I desperately wish they had some other mechanic to work with like cooldowns with charges or something. Anything really, no one on either side of the fence is ever happy with BE.

Adding cooldowns is a step in the wrong direction in my opinion.

What is a step in the right direction if the obvious goal is to prevent spamming an ability? If you had like 3 charges that recharged after 5 seconds each (and not sequentially) then you could BE in bursts and just have a few seconds in between. If you had that then you could drop the cost increase and stamina sorcs could actually use it effectively.

Not to mention it would pave the way for tuning other things like damage shields, scales, whatever other mechanic out there people hate because they get spammed. I get this is an ES game and that cooldowns are taboo, but take any other PvP game you've played before. Remove all the cooldowns and try to balance the abilities by cost alone. Can you imagine how screwed up they would be?

I know it's not going to happen, but lack of cooldowns really puts everything on resource management with a resource system that has a massive amount of variables.

Pancake-Tragedy

Lied wrote: »

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Lied wrote: »

The cost increase mechanic really doesn't work out so well, IMO. It'll be too few BE's for some simple builds and ultimately way too many for others, especially after more CP. I desperately wish they had some other mechanic to work with like cooldowns with charges or something. Anything really, no one on either side of the fence is ever happy with BE.

Adding cooldowns is a step in the wrong direction in my opinion.

What is a step in the right direction if the obvious goal is to prevent spamming an ability? If you had like 3 charges that recharged after 5 seconds each (and not sequentially) then you could BE in bursts and just have a few seconds in between. If you had that then you could drop the cost increase and stamina sorcs could actually use it effectively.

Not to mention it would pave the way for tuning other things like damage shields, scales, whatever other mechanic out there people hate because they get spammed. I get this is an ES game and that cooldowns are taboo, but take any other PvP game you've played before. Remove all the cooldowns and try to balance the abilities by cost alone. Can you imagine how screwed up they would be?

I know it's not going to happen, but lack of cooldowns really puts everything on resource management with a resource system that has a massive amount of variables.

That is what I like about this combat system: having no cooldowns and relying on resource management. In a game where you can only have 5 active abilities + 1 ultimate, adding a cooldown mechanic would make for dull, predictable combat. That is the main difference between this game and other games, where other games you had multiple skill bars filled with abilities so cooldowns made sense.

The only argument people have for BE retaining its increased magicka cost is that a sorc can BE away. Sure sorcs can kite/run away very well, but most players also seem to look past the fact that any build that uses a charge can stick with them the entire time.

Keep in mind, streaking into groups can be bad now since you are essentially giving a group of enemies CC-immunity and streak doesn't build ultimate anymore, so old problems with sorcs streaking through groups and locking them down with disorient + negate spam is a thing of the past.

Lied

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

The only argument people have for BE retaining its increased magicka cost is that a sorc can BE away. Sure sorcs can kite/run away very well, but most players also seem to look past the fact that any build that uses a charge can stick with them the entire time.

You're talking about whether or not there should be a mechanic that restricts consecutive bolt escapes.
I'm talking about the fact that restricting bolt escapes is intended by ZOS and that there are better ways to do it, (namely ones that wouldn't so harshly impact stamina builds).

You're right in that other mechanics would be irrelevant if they just gave up whole restriction concept. But they haven't. It has only gotten more restrictive over time because the method they are using is not a great way to do it.

Pancake-Tragedy

Lied wrote: »

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

The only argument people have for BE retaining its increased magicka cost is that a sorc can BE away. Sure sorcs can kite/run away very well, but most players also seem to look past the fact that any build that uses a charge can stick with them the entire time.

You're talking about whether or not there should be a mechanic that restricts consecutive bolt escapes.
I'm talking about the fact that restricting bolt escapes is intended by ZOS and that there are better ways to do it, (namely ones that wouldn't so harshly impact stamina builds).

The restriction on BE came during a time when the entire community was crying about sorcs being able to run away from fights and no one figured out that a charge could follow a bolt escaping sorc.

You're right in that other mechanics would be irrelevant if they just gave up whole restriction concept. But they haven't. It has only gotten more restrictive over time because the method they are using is not a great way to do it.

Only one skill in the whole game has a restrictive mechanic. Can you guess which one it is?

Lied

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Only one skill in the whole game has a restrictive mechanic. Can you guess which one it is?

yeah.. if I didn't know better I'd almost think they really don't want someone to bolt escape a lot of times in a row. I guess they can just continue to adjust the penalty to match one build while screwing others.

Jahosefat

Germtrocity wrote: »

Since it no longer offers a soft CC, the use of it as an offensive CC is becoming a bit of a joke. In 1.5 the only reason I preferred streak to ball of lightning was because of the possibility to be able to turn my magicka (at a high expense) into a way to keep my enemies suppressed if they were not smart with their stamina usage, and as a way to build ultimate.

This was why I never moved to BOL. And you are right, this does not work nearly as well as it did before. And honestly, with all the major expedition buffs people have now bolt escape alone is not a very effective kiting tool anymore. I felt a lot better once I put boundless storm on my bars and kept major expedition up most of the time. But yeah, can't really pin down groups with streak anymore; I had a lot more success with it when I saved it to use at a crucial moment as opposed to an opener or group suppression. Casually streaking through groups like pre 1.6 resulted in swift deaths (for most groups, some still don't know what to do with a sorc). The CC change on streak was probably one of the most impactful changes they made in terms of play style for the soc (if you used streak before).

cozmon3c_ESO

streak doesn't seem to do as much damage as it did in 1.5 either, it was an alright instant damage spell if you needed to get that last little bit after a curse / frag hit to get mage fury to go off. now i barely even see health bars move from it. if they want to make streak viable again it needs to do more damage. if you're using it for damage, then you are in the fray and hence have higher risk involved using streak this way, so this would be a good balance for it imo.

i personally never really used the cc of streak unless someone was soul striking me. it was always for instant damage, occasionally to get ult and escaping (or trolling people on horses lol ) . streak really was the only sorc ability that did instant damage to an enemy reliably.

cschwingeb14_ESO

Streaks lack of usability for 4seconds after using it once fits right in with a bunch of sorcs skills:

Minefield: 3 second activation wait time. Recast in that time and no damage on old mines
Curse: 3.5 to 6 second wait for damage, only 1 usable at a time. Recast in that time and no damage
Encase: No damage (shattering prison: no damage until root breaks)

loki547

Germtrocity wrote: »

I have not personally tested anything yet, as I am currently under account suspension

Aww gee, I wonder why that is?

Germtrocity

loki547 wrote: »

Germtrocity wrote: »

I have not personally tested anything yet, as I am currently under account suspension

Aww gee, I wonder why that is?

Because I was ERPing publicly, lol.

Are you going to take our conversation to the forums and cry out that I am a "fa***t hacker" because you can't manage to beat me, even when the odds are stacked in your favor? Please don't take your little QQ sessions that you give me in whisper chat to the forums, as I wouldn't want to make a complete fool out of you publicly.

Germtrocity

.

loki547

As if ZoS cares about ERPing lol. I'd love to stay and chat but I'm going to log on play some ESO See ya kid!

DisgracefulMind

Germtrocity wrote: »

loki547 wrote: »

Germtrocity wrote: »

I have not personally tested anything yet, as I am currently under account suspension

Aww gee, I wonder why that is?

Because I was ERPing publicly, lol.

Are you going to take our conversation to the forums and cry out that I am a "fa***t hacker" because you can't manage to beat me, even when the odds are stacked in your favor? Please don't take your little QQ sessions that you give me in whisper chat to the forums, as I wouldn't want to make a complete fool out of you publicly.

We were under such a long timeout

Guess it's gotta stay to group chat nao.

k2blader

Kuro1n wrote: »

Pretty *** much. I took a overload light attack to the face for 7.5k and then I noped out of there with cloak while some of the others died.

Another time it didn't end up so well and I was out of stamina:

That is a lot of damage. And these were sub-VR14 sorcs? 1v2 is going to be difficult with those kinds of numbers. I read Overload had been buffed so I've been excited to try it myself (still setting up my sorc..). I'm wondering if one was shield stacking and bolting while the other was unloading on you. Were you also throwing up your own defensive/healing skills or interrupts? It's just hard to tell but there are likely explanations besides sorcs being OP. I'll be checking it out for myself soon though. :-)

Tankqull

k2blader wrote: »

Kuro1n wrote: »

Pretty *** much. I took a overload light attack to the face for 7.5k and then I noped out of there with cloak while some of the others died.

Another time it didn't end up so well and I was out of stamina:

That is a lot of damage. And these were sub-VR14 sorcs? 1v2 is going to be difficult with those kinds of numbers. I read Overload had been buffed so I've been excited to try it myself (still setting up my sorc..). I'm wondering if one was shield stacking and bolting while the other was unloading on you. Were you also throwing up your own defensive/healing skills or interrupts? It's just hard to tell but there are likely explanations besides sorcs being OP. I'll be checking it out for myself soon though. :-)

even when you are starting pvp at v1 you are vr14 when you hit AvA-rank23 and 24 as those two are...

Kuro1n

k2blader wrote: »

Kuro1n wrote: »

Pretty *** much. I took a overload light attack to the face for 7.5k and then I noped out of there with cloak while some of the others died.

Another time it didn't end up so well and I was out of stamina:

That is a lot of damage. And these were sub-VR14 sorcs? 1v2 is going to be difficult with those kinds of numbers. I read Overload had been buffed so I've been excited to try it myself (still setting up my sorc..). I'm wondering if one was shield stacking and bolting while the other was unloading on you. Were you also throwing up your own defensive/healing skills or interrupts? It's just hard to tell but there are likely explanations besides sorcs being OP. I'll be checking it out for myself soon though. :-)

Well in general I don't think they are that OP. It is just the shield stacking that is a bit over the top, the damage is fine imo. I mean as I see a sorc going in light and nuke setup SHOULD do high damage but die like a fly if hit. Right now they hit pretty hard and survive pretty much but on the other hand so do a lot of other builds. These were VR14 I think, one might have been VR12. They were throwing light attacks, can't interrupt that man.

I was trying to throw up my so called heals but I am a NB so they really wouldn't do much difference.

The reason for me posting that is because people are crying like babies before they have even tried the patch out and made proper new builds, I mean I have seen really successful builds of all characters so far. Would be cool if sorc has better ability for stam though (however making bolt cheaper is not the answer, 3-4 jumps on a stamina build is completely fine, it is on par with cloak which can *** break by a *** of things which does not happen with bolting).

Xsorus

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Lied wrote: »

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

The only argument people have for BE retaining its increased magicka cost is that a sorc can BE away. Sure sorcs can kite/run away very well, but most players also seem to look past the fact that any build that uses a charge can stick with them the entire time.

You're talking about whether or not there should be a mechanic that restricts consecutive bolt escapes.
I'm talking about the fact that restricting bolt escapes is intended by ZOS and that there are better ways to do it, (namely ones that wouldn't so harshly impact stamina builds).

The restriction on BE came during a time when the entire community was crying about sorcs being able to run away from fights and no one figured out that a charge could follow a bolt escaping sorc.

You're right in that other mechanics would be irrelevant if they just gave up whole restriction concept. But they haven't. It has only gotten more restrictive over time because the method they are using is not a great way to do it.

Only one skill in the whole game has a restrictive mechanic. Can you guess which one it is?

Wait, you think people didn't know you could charge a sorc back then? That's why no one was doing it?

Charging a Sorc going in a straight line is all fun and dandy....But the second they broke LOS by Teleporting behind say a Tree or a Rock and you couldn't Charge them because your ability actually required LOS they'd be gone...and there is nothing you could do to stop them..They can do the same thing right now...only they can't come back 2 seconds later and open on ya again because Mana like before..That is really the only difference.

Pancake-Tragedy

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Lied wrote: »

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

The only argument people have for BE retaining its increased magicka cost is that a sorc can BE away. Sure sorcs can kite/run away very well, but most players also seem to look past the fact that any build that uses a charge can stick with them the entire time.

You're talking about whether or not there should be a mechanic that restricts consecutive bolt escapes.
I'm talking about the fact that restricting bolt escapes is intended by ZOS and that there are better ways to do it, (namely ones that wouldn't so harshly impact stamina builds).

The restriction on BE came during a time when the entire community was crying about sorcs being able to run away from fights and no one figured out that a charge could follow a bolt escaping sorc.

You're right in that other mechanics would be irrelevant if they just gave up whole restriction concept. But they haven't. It has only gotten more restrictive over time because the method they are using is not a great way to do it.

Only one skill in the whole game has a restrictive mechanic. Can you guess which one it is?

Wait, you think people didn't know you could charge a sorc back then? That's why no one was doing it?


Charging a Sorc going in a straight line is all fun and dandy....But the second they broke LOS by Teleporting behind say a Tree or a Rock and you couldn't Charge them because your ability actually required LOS they'd be gone...and there is nothing you could do to stop them..They can do the same thing right now...only they can't come back 2 seconds later and open on ya again because Mana like before..That is really the only difference.

Everyone seems to have a story about the sorc that got away. You know, because escaping a fight is OP.

No one ever recalls how they "locked that noob streaking sorc" down with shield charges/talons/stampede/fear until the sorc was out of stamina and then that sorc turns into a punching bag.

Kuro1n

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Everyone seems to have a story about the sorc that got away. You know, because escaping a fight is OP.

No one ever recalls how they "locked that noob streaking sorc" down with shield charges/talons/stampede/fear until the sorc was out of stamina and then that sorc turns into a punching bag.

Actually how do you lock someone down with fear if you get CC immunity after breaking it? L2P issue, talons is another matter.

Pancake-Tragedy

Kuro1n wrote: »

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Everyone seems to have a story about the sorc that got away. You know, because escaping a fight is OP.

No one ever recalls how they "locked that noob streaking sorc" down with shield charges/talons/stampede/fear until the sorc was out of stamina and then that sorc turns into a punching bag.

Actually how do you lock someone down with fear if you get CC immunity after breaking it? L2P issue, talons is another matter.

I was just mentioning ways to drain a sorcs stamina because a sorc without stamina is a dead sorc. I've used this method on my NB against sorcs with plenty of success and when I die on my sorc while trying to BE away, this is why.

It is hilarious that you are having problems fighting sorcs and I am giving you ways to counter them, yet you tell me its a L2P issue.

Again, I guess I have to reiterate...I'm not having problems on my sorc. 1.6 definitely helped more then many are willing to admit but it is time to get rid of the ridiculous BE magicka cost. It has counters and it doesn't have the same capabilities that it used to. It is only a good escape tool, nothing more.

Kuro1n

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Kuro1n wrote: »

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Everyone seems to have a story about the sorc that got away. You know, because escaping a fight is OP.

No one ever recalls how they "locked that noob streaking sorc" down with shield charges/talons/stampede/fear until the sorc was out of stamina and then that sorc turns into a punching bag.

Actually how do you lock someone down with fear if you get CC immunity after breaking it? L2P issue, talons is another matter.

I was just mentioning ways to drain a sorcs stamina because a sorc without stamina is a dead sorc. I've used this method on my NB against sorcs with plenty of success and when I die on my sorc while trying to BE away, this is why.

It is hilarious that you are having problems fighting sorcs and I am giving you ways to counter them, yet you tell me its a L2P issue.

Again, I guess I have to reiterate...I'm not having problems on my sorc. 1.6 definitely helped more then many are willing to admit but it is time to get rid of the ridiculous BE magicka cost. It has counters and it doesn't have the same capabilities that it used to. It is only a good escape tool, nothing more.

Well I am speaking of sorcs who are able to manage their stamina, not randoms wasting it running in circles or whatever.

I am saying being unable to escape fears is a L2P issue nothing else, now who exactly has these problems I am not sure of. Just saying fear is not the end of the world, seen plenty of sorcs getting out of sticky situations really.

Septimus_Magna

Pvp can be very easy if you know what you're doing as sorcerer. Atm I have no problem with any class 1vs1. The trick is to use BE in combination with elusive mist form, this allows you to blink away without burning all magicka instantly because there is more than 4s between BE. You could even do it with Streak and Boundless Storm if you are not a vamp.

Ezareth

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Pvp can be very easy if you know what you're doing as sorcerer. Atm I have no problem with any class 1vs1. The trick is to use BE in combination with elusive mist form, this allows you to blink away without burning all magicka instantly because there is more than 4s between BE. You could even do it with Streak and Boundless Storm if you are not a vamp.

You should try 1v1ing good players then. The kind of players who still target and root you while you're in mist form.

sagitter

No pls, maybe you don't remember the "teleporting party" sorceres everywhere at launch in pvp, that was not funny really.
Imagine withouth 50% cost red every 4 secs, with all set glyphs and champ passive of magicka reduction.

Soarin'

I have seen sorcerers kitting large groups by using 8-15 bolt escapes cast simultaneously. I will record this next time I am skirmishing.

It is till the quickest mobility skill in the game whilst a user is in combat, it ignores snares (which I think is utterly imbalanced) and allows the user to disengage fights whenever they feel that they may lose. I do not see how any person can justify having the ability to remove themselves from danger after engaging in combat.

Players need to be mindful of the odds when they engage in combat, you are essentially gambling with your characters life and need to in some cases chose not to initiate combat because you might die. When you commit to a fight you should have to see that wager through, if you misjudged the situation and are losing as a result you should die from that mistake.

If you want to control combat range you should be taking a snare to slow your opponents and then be buffing your own speed. To do this should require a considerable investment of slots in one of your skill bars (2-3 of your skills) because it is such a powerful deciding factor in fights.

If anything I think that bolt escape is too much of a safety net to players unwilling to take risks to gain rewards. I have been playing PVP in open world MMO's since 2006 and find TESO to still be one of the more forging pvp experiences. TESO 1.6 was an update I was waiting for since 2 months after release. It has been a great improvement to an otherwise biased character build system.

The way I see it you have 3 options:

• Adapt
• Pick your fights more conservatively
• Die

Yolokin_Swagonborn

The meta has had a chance to evolve and there are plenty of counters for bolt escape now. The "spam punishment" is a very inconsistent design choice and doesn't fit the spirit of an elderscrolls game. Although many class skills are borderline OP if spammed, bolt escape is the only ability in game that punishes you for spamming it. In a game ostensibly designed with no cooldowns, this is a step in the wrong direction

So why was bolt given a magicka penalty and other "OP" spamable abilities were not? The best answer I could find for this is below:

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I still don't get why every class has abilities that are borderline OP when spammed but sorcs are the only class in the game with an ability that punishes you for spamming it.

Spamming dragon blood/talons/flappy wings is just as powerful as spamming streak ever was. Same thing with blazing shield or sap essence.

Because its ok if the cookie looks tasty but is filled with nails rather then have the cookie running away from you.
Thats basically it. You won´t eat the cookie either way but the feeling is different. Sorcs getting away ppl feel cheated out of their "earned" victory over a class with no incombat heal. They lack the understanding that teleporting away is basically the same as a dk popping gdb and standard of might to go full health and resources again (and them ****ing them).

That's the real reason. People feel that they deserve the kill if they get a sorc to low health. If the sorc escapes, it bothers them infinitely more than a templar or DK coming back from the dead and stomping them - even though its the exact same thing!!!

But having high mobility in exchange for low survivability is part of the sorc toolkit. Bolt is well past due for an unnerf. I have a detailed write-up as to why it should be un-nerfed HERE. It is the most comprehensive argument on why BE should be unnerfed. Read it and click agree if you like it. I will edit any other arguments you would like to add.