Talons - Should Be Nerfed

Islyn

Panda244 wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

I think they should just nerf complaining. Job done. (Don't LOL because you can't.)

It's okay, Insightful is the new lol anyways.

@Panda244

Pandaaaaa! Ha! I was just thinking that! In fact - before this all happened my fave comeback when my ex decided it was 'Rage at Isy' day was 'ooh insightful' *eyeroll and walk out the door* ;-)

Thankfully my current knows how to frame an issue or concern in an appropriate way which makes me give one rip what he says! :-D

kojou

I never thought Talons by themselves were particularly powerful. What usually gets me is when I get stunned and talon'ed at the same time and have to break free before I can roll out of the talons. If the devs could somehow make it so you couldn't be CC'ed 2 ways at the same time then I would like that, but talons by themselves are fine.

Snit

Talons is powerful, but it's hardly the terrifying death sentence it was in the early days of TESO. It has already been nerfed enough. When it 'kills' me, that usually indicates I made another mistake, such as standing in the path of the bats and impulse zerg.

Beerbill

WebBull wrote: »

ZOS_UlyssesW wrote: »

Hi there folks.

We know that people are adjusting to the lol button being removed with the overhaul, but we do ask that players refrain from posting "lol" and nothing more. We encourage you instead to engage in a more constructive way and either mention what humored you or what you disagree with about the person's post. We recommend heading over to our Community Vision and Increased Moderation thread to see more details. Thank you for your understanding.

Well by removing the LOL button you folks created a situation you didn't want or need. You changed something that wasn't broken, for the worst.

What is truly shocking is the sensitivity towards something as silly as a disagree button or LOL button. Apparently no one at ESO has see any of the in game zone chats. Might want to focus there first before worrying about LOL.

I guess it's because the community mostly suck (maybe because we are all vampires right) and don't allow people with good ideas provide good feedback without the fear of being ridiculed by trolls who disagree with your opinion and hide behind buttons instead of providing a counter argument.

I was a valid move of ZOS because it's not the community who should evaluate the feedback (or evaluate negatively in that case), it is their job to hear the players needs and do the best to the game with it.

b-l-a-d-eb16_ESO

</3
nerf everything that killes me or my class posts.

dont listen to whiners please.

stupid or bad players will always complain abouth other peoples skills.

rich.magab14a_ESO

Smepic wrote: »

Kuro1n wrote: »

Well honestly the reason people consider DKs to be so damn strong is because of how they had reflective scales for long range and talons, batswarm and such for close and it would be really hard to fight them then. No idea how this is working out now in a 1v1 situation. I mean 1vX they should be getting wrecked by ranged classes.

I suppose part of the problem with constant Talon lock-down is how they were block-casting. Hopefully this will not be possible in 1.6.

Hold on are you complaining about talons in a pts forum without actually playing the PTS?

Asgari

On my DK my main source of AoE dps in talons and cinder storm. Talons does insane AoE dmg and can reapplied over and over.

ginoboehm

BEZDNA wrote: »

LOL LOL LOL LOL - bring the LOL button back so i LOL to deaf all TC who don't want to learn to play and only able to whine on forums about abilities they don't know how to counter.

Talons are TOTALY OK! It was OP befor with the big radius, but now it's ok as it is!

They are very easy to conter:
1. roll out
2. rapid manuver
3. purge
4. and ofc - kiting OP agains DK

If you cant manage yo resourses or find a slot on you bar for purge - it's a players problem not a balance iisue. And btw - all abilitys are spamable in this game, it's not a talong problem - it's a gme design.

If the dk is not wearing the meteor set and you are not a stamina char standing in it is totally viable with my templer I laugh about that with my night blade I fear or teleport and a sorc with this dot damage is unkillable anyway

snipeopsub17_ESO

Talons need to trigger the cc immunity timer the same way they changed Biting Jabs (and associated skills).

Seraphyel

Panda244 wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Talons isn't a CC ability, and therefor doesn't grant you CC immunity, there is nothing to balance here. If you want it to be balanced, then suggest lowering the damage? But having an ability that isn't a CC grant CC immunity is like... Breaking my brain, so please stop.

Encase is the exact same ability, and Sorcerers' have access to it, so if you get so upset about Talon spam, then you're lucky you've never met a Sword/Board Sorcerer that bolts in and encases everyone.

If all you people seriously won't stop complaining about Talons being overpowered, then there is a simple fix. Reduce the stamina cost of roll dodging out of roots by X. Then it doesn't matter how many times a Dragonknight spams Talons because you'll always have stamina to roll out of it, if this fix doesn't suit you. Then you're just asking another Dragonknight ability to be nerfed and not actually providing any structural criticism.

Also, stop asking for CC immunity from an ability that isn't a CC.... Roots do not grant CC immunity people, Talons is a Root, Encase is a Root, Crippling Grasp is a root, give Talons a CC immunity timer and then both these abilities require it as well, as well with the Fighter's Guild Trap ability that no one uses.

Using encase fails in 1.6 from either a bug or changed mechanic. It also doesn't prof crystal frags which it used to do. Unless the person is standing still you can almost never encase them. With talons they can be moving all around and get taloned.

It doesn't matter, they're essentially the same ability... So would you prefer Talons to be nerfed to the level of Encase, or Encase to be buffed to the level of Talons? They're both AoE roots, and Encase worked fine on my sorc... Given she's level 10.

How much damage Talons do? I think more than Encase. There's your difference. And Encase is in front of you, Talons are around you.

Tankqull

Seraphyel wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Talons isn't a CC ability, and therefor doesn't grant you CC immunity, there is nothing to balance here. If you want it to be balanced, then suggest lowering the damage? But having an ability that isn't a CC grant CC immunity is like... Breaking my brain, so please stop.

Encase is the exact same ability, and Sorcerers' have access to it, so if you get so upset about Talon spam, then you're lucky you've never met a Sword/Board Sorcerer that bolts in and encases everyone.

If all you people seriously won't stop complaining about Talons being overpowered, then there is a simple fix. Reduce the stamina cost of roll dodging out of roots by X. Then it doesn't matter how many times a Dragonknight spams Talons because you'll always have stamina to roll out of it, if this fix doesn't suit you. Then you're just asking another Dragonknight ability to be nerfed and not actually providing any structural criticism.

Also, stop asking for CC immunity from an ability that isn't a CC.... Roots do not grant CC immunity people, Talons is a Root, Encase is a Root, Crippling Grasp is a root, give Talons a CC immunity timer and then both these abilities require it as well, as well with the Fighter's Guild Trap ability that no one uses.

Using encase fails in 1.6 from either a bug or changed mechanic. It also doesn't prof crystal frags which it used to do. Unless the person is standing still you can almost never encase them. With talons they can be moving all around and get taloned.

It doesn't matter, they're essentially the same ability... So would you prefer Talons to be nerfed to the level of Encase, or Encase to be buffed to the level of Talons? They're both AoE roots, and Encase worked fine on my sorc... Given she's level 10.

How much damage Talons do? I think more than Encase. There's your difference. And Encase is in front of you, Talons are around you.

the main issue of encase is its aplication behaviour, its rolled out like a carpet wich adds a significant delay making everybody runing away from the caster impossible to be affected and player moving around quite likely to be missed. add that behaviour to talons and the dk uproar would be tremendous :P

Panda244

Tankqull wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Talons isn't a CC ability, and therefor doesn't grant you CC immunity, there is nothing to balance here. If you want it to be balanced, then suggest lowering the damage? But having an ability that isn't a CC grant CC immunity is like... Breaking my brain, so please stop.

Encase is the exact same ability, and Sorcerers' have access to it, so if you get so upset about Talon spam, then you're lucky you've never met a Sword/Board Sorcerer that bolts in and encases everyone.

If all you people seriously won't stop complaining about Talons being overpowered, then there is a simple fix. Reduce the stamina cost of roll dodging out of roots by X. Then it doesn't matter how many times a Dragonknight spams Talons because you'll always have stamina to roll out of it, if this fix doesn't suit you. Then you're just asking another Dragonknight ability to be nerfed and not actually providing any structural criticism.

Also, stop asking for CC immunity from an ability that isn't a CC.... Roots do not grant CC immunity people, Talons is a Root, Encase is a Root, Crippling Grasp is a root, give Talons a CC immunity timer and then both these abilities require it as well, as well with the Fighter's Guild Trap ability that no one uses.

Using encase fails in 1.6 from either a bug or changed mechanic. It also doesn't prof crystal frags which it used to do. Unless the person is standing still you can almost never encase them. With talons they can be moving all around and get taloned.

It doesn't matter, they're essentially the same ability... So would you prefer Talons to be nerfed to the level of Encase, or Encase to be buffed to the level of Talons? They're both AoE roots, and Encase worked fine on my sorc... Given she's level 10.

How much damage Talons do? I think more than Encase. There's your difference. And Encase is in front of you, Talons are around you.

the main issue of encase is its aplicarion behaviour, its rolled out like a carpet wich adds a significant delay making everybody runing away from the caster impossible to be affected and player moving around quite likely to be missed. add that behaviour to talons and the dk uproar would be tremendous :P

DK uproar is going to be tremendous if they change Talons anyway.... To be quite honest, Talons is really no different than fear in some aspects, short range, 4 seconds, the only difference is fear is a Hard CC and Talons is not. Which means one grants immunity, and one doesn't. The simple fact of Talons is that it, again, is not, a hard, CC. And therefor does not grant immunity, so all these threads, would have so much more support from me, if Talons was a hard CC, it has counters, it's damage isn't inevitably going to murder you, so you can counter it, or stand in it for four seconds and wait it out.

I think most of the rage comes from people encountering bad DK players on Thornblade that just spam whatever people complain about on the forums, whether it be Talons or Impulse. They spam it, run with zergs, and think they're doing anything more than AP farming.

Cody

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

On my DK my main source of AoE dps in talons and cinder storm. Talons does insane AoE dmg and can reapplied over and over.

thank you for saying that.

i mean it, thank you:)

WebBull

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Talons does insane AoE dmg

Insane AoE damage? Compared to what? Caltrops? Where do you come up with this nonsense. Some of your posts are absolutely ridiculous.

Panda244

WebBull wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Talons does insane AoE dmg

Insane AoE damage? Compared to what? Caltrops? Where do you come up with this nonsense. Some of your posts are absolutely ridiculous.

Aye, it can be reapplied over and over sure... The damage is a joke, it deals maybe 450 if you've maxed spell damage out. Impulse deals nearly 350 on my Dragonknight with 97 spell damage.... Then there's the DoT. Engulfing Flames + Fire Ring = Fun Times.

RinaldoGandolphi

I'm not a DK, never used one and I think Talons are fine.

They been needed how many times now?

Cody

Panda244 wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Talons does insane AoE dmg

Insane AoE damage? Compared to what? Caltrops? Where do you come up with this nonsense. Some of your posts are absolutely ridiculous.

Aye, it can be reapplied over and over sure... The damage is a joke, it deals maybe 450 if you've maxed spell damage out. Impulse deals nearly 350 on my Dragonknight with 97 spell damage.... Then there's the DoT. Engulfing Flames + Fire Ring = Fun Times.

400 is a good bit for a 3000 HP player.....

imagine it being done on players not even at the 2.5K mark.

Panda244

Cody wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Talons does insane AoE dmg

Insane AoE damage? Compared to what? Caltrops? Where do you come up with this nonsense. Some of your posts are absolutely ridiculous.

Aye, it can be reapplied over and over sure... The damage is a joke, it deals maybe 450 if you've maxed spell damage out. Impulse deals nearly 350 on my Dragonknight with 97 spell damage.... Then there's the DoT. Engulfing Flames + Fire Ring = Fun Times.

400 is a good bit for a 3000 HP player.....

imagine it being done on players not even at the 2.5K mark.

If you have 2.5k HP and you're in Cyrodiil, you're doing it wrong. I'm sorry but that's a L2P problem, and I never say L2P, but 2.5k HP is idiocy in Cyrodiil when a Lethal Arrow can hit you for 2.1k, if you have damage shields to stack over that 2.5k Health then alright... But still.

Decimus_Rex

sarttsarttsarttub17_ESO wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

As we all probably can agree on, the Dragonknight skill Talons is one of the more overpowered skills in the game. The fact that it is not affected by cc-immunity and does not grant you cc-immunity when you roll dodge out of it is plain stupidity. This skill is able to lock down down enemies in an aoe range, providing either a dot effect or reduced damage done, and with the combination of a gap closer and Talons, it is almost impossible for the target to break free.

I don't think it's fair that an ability is able to permanently lock down an enemy with such ease. Thoughts?

bro everyone knows this, the devs know this, they do nothing. Talons have been OP since day 1 and if you get 3 dragonknights in a group spamming it they can kill everyone.

Let's face it DK's are OP all around..

If you spec it right you are unkillable. you turtle and let your passives kill or go vamp and bat swarm to your hearts content.

The weak PvP'ers play this class because it's easy mode

Shield or 2 hand rush for big damage then flame lash to death or turtle and bat swarm to death

Zeni will never get it right

BECAUSE

In a Pve/ PvP MMO the balance for both is a constant struggle

so one must lose out

Take a guess which one is over looked ?

Aimelin

Or atleast fix it so DKs can't CC bug you with it, for those who don't know, shield charge + talons, have fun trying to CC break, caus you can't

they said you'd get a "cc immunity" after rolling out of talons .... yea glad it works

Armitas

Cody wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Talons does insane AoE dmg

Insane AoE damage? Compared to what? Caltrops? Where do you come up with this nonsense. Some of your posts are absolutely ridiculous.

Aye, it can be reapplied over and over sure... The damage is a joke, it deals maybe 450 if you've maxed spell damage out. Impulse deals nearly 350 on my Dragonknight with 97 spell damage.... Then there's the DoT. Engulfing Flames + Fire Ring = Fun Times.

400 is a good bit for a 3000 HP player.....

400, or whatever the damage actually is over 4 seconds, not per cast. The cast does physical damage and the remainder does fire dot damage over 4 seconds.
____
I think what Princess Asgari is refering to is the combo dps of the skill, not the dps of the skill itself as you have to leave it alone for 4 seconds because it lasts 4 seconds. Most dps comes from a nuker along with underlying dots and I think she is using it as an underlying dot. For example I use talons, cinder and draw essence to do pvp dps with draw essence as my "nuker" such as it is. She is also likely using the skoria set for the dot proc. That does make a really high dps combo, but it's not really because talons is OP but due to a combination of several things.

Decimus_Rex wrote: »

The weak PvP'ers play this class because it's easy mode

That is exactly why I play this class. Who told you my secret?

Tankqull

Panda244 wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Talons does insane AoE dmg

Insane AoE damage? Compared to what? Caltrops? Where do you come up with this nonsense. Some of your posts are absolutely ridiculous.

Aye, it can be reapplied over and over sure... The damage is a joke, it deals maybe 450 if you've maxed spell damage out. Impulse deals nearly 350 on my Dragonknight with 97 spell damage.... Then there's the DoT. Engulfing Flames + Fire Ring = Fun Times.

well pictures tell more than thousand words :
one day in cyrodiil


[as you may not be familiar with german skill names:
1: twinsisters
2: burning talons
3: flamewhip
4: fiery pulsar
5: shifting standard

madangrypally

I do not play a DK often and do not think Talons are overpowered at all. I do not think the ability needs nerfed in any shape or formed.

The biggest problem with talons was talons then Standard. This was IMO a problem with ultimate in general being to easy to obtain in game and with Update this problem has been fixed. No class will generate as much ultimate and thus ultimate in general will be less of a problem in PvP.

I actually enjoyed hunting DKs in PvP as they were fun to kill.

Once update hits live and if most of the flavor of the month crowd switch to Templars then I will have fun killing them also. Templar and Sorcerer were my main 2 pvp classes (evenly played) but with Templars being considered the easy class I will pick up Nightblade and design it to kill Templars. lol.

Joejudas

Posting " this thing is op you should nerf it " should fall under unconstructive criticism and be moderated from now on....unless you make a really really good arguement for it.

Nonamesbutmineub17_ESO

The only problem I have had with dark talons as a dual wield NB is having a DK spam it a couple times after dodge rolling it then run away and cast reflective scales and the health regain ability so he wouldn't die, sometimes I am able to use ambush to teleport to him if I have enough stamina left, but I am unable to switch to bow because of the reflective scales . Other than that just have a problem with zerg swarms spamming it so they can batswarm in tight areas like inside the castles for that case probably would like a 1-2 second talon immunity because it makes it near impossible to get out of the way of the swarm before they attack.

Trayyacakes

OK I mainly play a DK on live and will continue to do so in 1.6. As mentioned before the problem with talons comes when there is multiple DKs hitting talons. There are multiple counters to this skill. Magicka light armor builds purge, cloak, or purifying ritual. Purge is not an instant death in 1.6. Stamina med armor builds dodge roll. Heavy armor perma block builds, just hold block. The damage from talons in 1.6 isn't that high.

I don't think talons will be that big of a deal in 1.6 though because most DKs, that I know atleast, will be going stamina. If you think it needs a damage nerf then whatever I don't really care if it doesn't hit as hard. If you think it should grant CC immunity, which I strongly disagree with, then so should every other immobilize/root in the game. I personally think there are better roots out there than talons especially in 1.6. I personally will be using bombard for my root and snare come 1.6.

technohic

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

I never thought Talons by themselves were particularly powerful. What usually gets me is when I get stunned and talon'ed at the same time and have to break free before I can roll out of the talons. If the devs could somehow make it so you couldn't be CC'ed 2 ways at the same time then I would like that, but talons by themselves are fine.

Yay! I am not the only one harping on this. That is good news.

Sharkano

Putting on guild tabards does insane damage. I mean really really insane damage. Please bar them from game.

technohic

Panda244 wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Talons isn't a CC ability, and therefor doesn't grant you CC immunity, there is nothing to balance here. If you want it to be balanced, then suggest lowering the damage? But having an ability that isn't a CC grant CC immunity is like... Breaking my brain, so please stop.

Encase is the exact same ability, and Sorcerers' have access to it, so if you get so upset about Talon spam, then you're lucky you've never met a Sword/Board Sorcerer that bolts in and encases everyone.

If all you people seriously won't stop complaining about Talons being overpowered, then there is a simple fix. Reduce the stamina cost of roll dodging out of roots by X. Then it doesn't matter how many times a Dragonknight spams Talons because you'll always have stamina to roll out of it, if this fix doesn't suit you. Then you're just asking another Dragonknight ability to be nerfed and not actually providing any structural criticism.

Also, stop asking for CC immunity from an ability that isn't a CC.... Roots do not grant CC immunity people, Talons is a Root, Encase is a Root, Crippling Grasp is a root, give Talons a CC immunity timer and then both these abilities require it as well, as well with the Fighter's Guild Trap ability that no one uses.

Using encase fails in 1.6 from either a bug or changed mechanic. It also doesn't prof crystal frags which it used to do. Unless the person is standing still you can almost never encase them. With talons they can be moving all around and get taloned.

It doesn't matter, they're essentially the same ability... So would you prefer Talons to be nerfed to the level of Encase, or Encase to be buffed to the level of Talons? They're both AoE roots, and Encase worked fine on my sorc... Given she's level 10.

How much damage Talons do? I think more than Encase. There's your difference. And Encase is in front of you, Talons are around you.

the main issue of encase is its aplicarion behaviour, its rolled out like a carpet wich adds a significant delay making everybody runing away from the caster impossible to be affected and player moving around quite likely to be missed. add that behaviour to talons and the dk uproar would be tremendous :P

DK uproar is going to be tremendous if they change Talons anyway.... To be quite honest, Talons is really no different than fear in some aspects, short range, 4 seconds, the only difference is fear is a Hard CC and Talons is not. Which means one grants immunity, and one doesn't. The simple fact of Talons is that it, again, is not, a hard, CC. And therefor does not grant immunity, so all these threads, would have so much more support from me, if Talons was a hard CC, it has counters, it's damage isn't inevitably going to murder you, so you can counter it, or stand in it for four seconds and wait it out.

I think most of the rage comes from people encountering bad DK players on Thornblade that just spam whatever people complain about on the forums, whether it be Talons or Impulse. They spam it, run with zergs, and think they're doing anything more than AP farming.

You probably are hitting the nail on the head here. When you get insta killed by a huge zerg, probably the first thing you will notice before dieing is being rooted by talons as you try to get away. Never mind that you were probably done for to begin with.

Panda244

technohic wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Talons isn't a CC ability, and therefor doesn't grant you CC immunity, there is nothing to balance here. If you want it to be balanced, then suggest lowering the damage? But having an ability that isn't a CC grant CC immunity is like... Breaking my brain, so please stop.

Encase is the exact same ability, and Sorcerers' have access to it, so if you get so upset about Talon spam, then you're lucky you've never met a Sword/Board Sorcerer that bolts in and encases everyone.

If all you people seriously won't stop complaining about Talons being overpowered, then there is a simple fix. Reduce the stamina cost of roll dodging out of roots by X. Then it doesn't matter how many times a Dragonknight spams Talons because you'll always have stamina to roll out of it, if this fix doesn't suit you. Then you're just asking another Dragonknight ability to be nerfed and not actually providing any structural criticism.

Also, stop asking for CC immunity from an ability that isn't a CC.... Roots do not grant CC immunity people, Talons is a Root, Encase is a Root, Crippling Grasp is a root, give Talons a CC immunity timer and then both these abilities require it as well, as well with the Fighter's Guild Trap ability that no one uses.

Using encase fails in 1.6 from either a bug or changed mechanic. It also doesn't prof crystal frags which it used to do. Unless the person is standing still you can almost never encase them. With talons they can be moving all around and get taloned.

It doesn't matter, they're essentially the same ability... So would you prefer Talons to be nerfed to the level of Encase, or Encase to be buffed to the level of Talons? They're both AoE roots, and Encase worked fine on my sorc... Given she's level 10.

How much damage Talons do? I think more than Encase. There's your difference. And Encase is in front of you, Talons are around you.

the main issue of encase is its aplicarion behaviour, its rolled out like a carpet wich adds a significant delay making everybody runing away from the caster impossible to be affected and player moving around quite likely to be missed. add that behaviour to talons and the dk uproar would be tremendous :P

DK uproar is going to be tremendous if they change Talons anyway.... To be quite honest, Talons is really no different than fear in some aspects, short range, 4 seconds, the only difference is fear is a Hard CC and Talons is not. Which means one grants immunity, and one doesn't. The simple fact of Talons is that it, again, is not, a hard, CC. And therefor does not grant immunity, so all these threads, would have so much more support from me, if Talons was a hard CC, it has counters, it's damage isn't inevitably going to murder you, so you can counter it, or stand in it for four seconds and wait it out.

I think most of the rage comes from people encountering bad DK players on Thornblade that just spam whatever people complain about on the forums, whether it be Talons or Impulse. They spam it, run with zergs, and think they're doing anything more than AP farming.

You probably are hitting the nail on the head here. When you get insta killed by a huge zerg, probably the first thing you will notice before dieing is being rooted by talons as you try to get away. Never mind that you were probably done for to begin with.

But it's really no different from fear, I mean if all the DKs in a zerg were replaced with Impulse and fear spamming NBs, you'd be just as screwed, if not more screwed, because fear snares and lowers your damage after you break out of it. All of the "These abilities are OP, please nerf!" threads are annoying and they've been here since launch. I made a post a couple days ago about Talons and why they should/shouldn't be nerfed, and there are a lot more reasons to NOT nerf them than to....