Talons - Should Be Nerfed

Cody

I wont get into a fight with panda over it(who seems determined to call me out everytime i complain about talons; he must like me!:D)

All im going to say, is that it should have a 2-3 second immunity timer, at least in my opinion. I have faced DKs who have taloned me over half a dozen times, and it is ridiculous they can inflict all that physical damage against their enemy and drain their enemies' resources, just from a root.

A 3 second immunity timer would allow the DK to use it again in a short amount of time(3 seconds is not a long time in a PvP battle, trust me) while allowing the one facing the talon user to catch a tiny breather, instead of having to choose between wasting stamina and getting physical/constant DoT damage; or just standing there letting the DK get behind them, and whip them to death.

Thats my take on it. que the response from panda!

Panda244

Cody wrote: »

I wont get into a fight with panda over it(who seems determined to call me out everytime i complain about talons; he must like me!:D)

All im going to say, is that it should have a 2-3 second immunity timer, at least in my opinion. I have faced DKs who have taloned me over half a dozen times, and it is ridiculous they can inflict all that physical damage against their enemy and drain their enemies' resources, just from a root.

A 3 second immunity timer would allow the DK to use it again in a short amount of time(3 seconds is not a long time in a PvP battle, trust me) while allowing the one facing the talon user to catch a tiny breather, instead of having to choose between wasting stamina and getting physical/constant DoT damage; or just standing there letting the DK get behind them, and whip them to death.

Thats my take on it. que the response from panda!

What response?

3 Seconds in PvP is a lifetime, I can swap bars and heal, then swap back and use an ability in that amount of time. Leaving this post dry of talons because I've already called you out twice tonight.

Ergok

Smepic wrote: »

As we all probably can agree on, the Dragonknight skill Talons is one of the more overpowered skills in the game. The fact that it is not affected by cc-immunity and does not grant you cc-immunity when you roll dodge out of it is plain stupidity. This skill is able to lock down down enemies in an aoe range, providing either a dot effect or reduced damage done, and with the combination of a gap closer and Talons, it is almost impossible for the target to break free.

I don't think it's fair that an ability is able to permanently lock down an enemy with such ease. Thoughts?

It sounds like your experience may be with PVP which I do not use my DK for. When playing PVE, there are NPCs in the environment which can break free of it as well as backing up and moving at a reduced rate when the effect is in place. In addition, it only worked on a set number of NPCs and therefore I assume only on a set number of players in PVP. I know there are non-DK abilities which you could make the same complaint about as there is a vampire ability which transfers health and stamina from a single target to the player which I did not see brought up. Not being a PVP player, I would just ask to consider what it would do to PVE players as well by making such changes.

PlagueMonk

Francescolg wrote: »

The problem is not Talons itself but players spamming it over and over up to 5+ times in a row. ROLL OUT will not help if Talons is being spammed more than 2/3 times.

To all you [snip] THIS is the correct answer. Any intelligent DK will just keep applying Talons to you until you are are out of stamina dodge rolling, then drop SoM and you are cooked. If you have been able to dodge roll out and then move on, you have simply been playing against idiot DKs. period.


[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Bouvin

I just hit Ambush or Shadow Image if up. Or roll...

I've died a lot of deaths from Talons, but don't agree it's OP.

We got the Reflective Scales nerf we were asking for..let's lay off the DK's until a while after 1.6 to see how things pan out. I have a feeling Templar going to be melting face and focus is going to change anyways.

Rydik

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Francescolg wrote: »

The problem is not Talons itself but players spamming it over and over up to 5+ times in a row. ROLL OUT will not help if Talons is being spammed more than 2/3 times.

To all you[snip], THIS is the correct answer. Any intelligent DK will just keep applying Talons to you until you are are out of stamina dodge rolling, then drop SoM and you are cooked. If you have been able to dodge roll out and then move on, you have simply been playing against idiot DKs. period.

Ahaha, many talons and then SoM!? Really!? Someone really need l2p

Stop crying about 1.5... balance, just understand that it's not exist anymore in 1.6.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Runkorko

ZOS_UlyssesW wrote: »

Hi there folks.

We know that people are adjusting to the lol button being removed with the overhaul, but we do ask that players refrain from posting "lol" and nothing more. We encourage you instead to engage in a more constructive way and either mention what humored you or what you disagree with about the person's post. We recommend heading over to our Community Vision and Increased Moderation thread to see more details. Thank you for your understanding.

You didnt wana see my answer to this .... kid : prototypefb
✭✭✭
DKs god class in ESO, most Dk skills complement each other creating almost endless build options.
tanky with ability to sustain high damage+CC on opponent, no weaknesses. Crazy synergizing passives!
Talons is just tip of the iceberg....
best approach would be x2 cost on recast while effect is active, and not just for talons, for every skill in the game.

Better bring "LOL" option bck or something similar, like "disagree", "go away" or just "RiP".


Thank you for your understanding.

timidobserver

As a Templar, depending on how much damage they are putting out, I will just sit in the Talons and Blazing Shield while waiting wait for SOM to drop and then I'll dodge out of both. Unless I am being overwhelmed by multiple opponents, I usually don't put any priority on breaking out of Talons.

Though Talons really irritates my NB.

Panda244

timidobserver wrote: »

As a Templar, depending on how much damage they are putting out, I will just sit in the Talons and Blazing Shield while waiting wait for SOM to drop and then I'll dodge out of both. Unless I am being overwhelmed by multiple opponents, I usually don't put any priority on breaking out of Talons.

Though Talons really irritates my NB.

Same goes for me on every class, unless the situation calls for it I stand in the Talons and wait, I can take 2 or 3 hits from the DK.

danno8

timidobserver wrote: »

As a Templar, depending on how much damage they are putting out, I will just sit in the Talons and Blazing Shield while waiting wait for SOM to drop and then I'll dodge out of both. Unless I am being overwhelmed by multiple opponents, I usually don't put any priority on breaking out of Talons.

Though Talons really irritates my NB.

Yes Templar do have a pretty good counter. I have literally had DK spam talons once per second while I just stood there casting Blazing Shield Biting jabs, BS, BJ, BS, BJ. Watched him die hilariously.

That was a terrible DK though. Most will go behind you, knowing full well you can not turn to face them, or back off when they see the BS.

No idea how Sorcerers and NB's deal with it.

We really just need soft cc immunity. Half the hard cc immunity would be good, something like 2-3 seconds.

timidobserver

danno816_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

As a Templar, depending on how much damage they are putting out, I will just sit in the Talons and Blazing Shield while waiting wait for SOM to drop and then I'll dodge out of both. Unless I am being overwhelmed by multiple opponents, I usually don't put any priority on breaking out of Talons.

Though Talons really irritates my NB.

Yes Templar do have a pretty good counter. I have literally had DK spam talons once per second while I just stood there casting Blazing Shield Biting jabs, BS, BJ, BS, BJ. Watched him die hilariously.

That was a terrible DK though. Most will go behind you, knowing full well you can not turn to face them, or back off when they see the BS.

No idea how Sorcerers and NB's deal with it.

We really just need soft cc immunity. Half the hard cc immunity would be good, something like 2-3 seconds.

If they go behind me they get a blazing spear. Though, that isn't going to be as effective since they are giving it immunity.

Swen_von_Walhallion

Yusuf wrote: »

If you're still facing problems i recommend you the "Way of the Arena"-Set which reduced cc-break cost by 40% and maybe allocate an enchantment more into stamina, having just a 100 stamina more makes a big difference in pvp and you will notice it.

get 100 or more stamina rly dont help you bc break free and roll dodge cost X% of your max stamina if you have 1000 stamina or 10000 staminay you still can make exactly this some nubers of rolls

Panda244

Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »

Yusuf wrote: »

If you're still facing problems i recommend you the "Way of the Arena"-Set which reduced cc-break cost by 40% and maybe allocate an enchantment more into stamina, having just a 100 stamina more makes a big difference in pvp and you will notice it.

get 100 or more stamina rly dont help you bc break free and roll dodge cost X% of your max stamina if you have 1000 stamina or 10000 staminay you still can make exactly this some nubers of rolls

No no no, 100 more stamina helps in PvP... hell, 75 stamina helps, the max stamina + your regen rate = more dodge rolls and CC breaks.

Jaerlach

Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »

Yusuf wrote: »

If you're still facing problems i recommend you the "Way of the Arena"-Set which reduced cc-break cost by 40% and maybe allocate an enchantment more into stamina, having just a 100 stamina more makes a big difference in pvp and you will notice it.

get 100 or more stamina rly dont help you bc break free and roll dodge cost X% of your max stamina if you have 1000 stamina or 10000 staminay you still can make exactly this some nubers of rolls

Hello sir, way of the arena reduces the stamina cost of break free by 40%.

This will make a huge difference in your stamina management in PVP, I promise.

Shinra

Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »

Yusuf wrote: »

If you're still facing problems i recommend you the "Way of the Arena"-Set which reduced cc-break cost by 40% and maybe allocate an enchantment more into stamina, having just a 100 stamina more makes a big difference in pvp and you will notice it.

get 100 or more stamina rly dont help you bc break free and roll dodge cost X% of your max stamina if you have 1000 stamina or 10000 staminay you still can make exactly this some nubers of rolls

Never played a Stam build, right?

Just to clarify, roll-dogding cost X% of your BASE Stamina. That's the stamina you get from your level, and only that. A V14 Build with 2400 Stamina can roll dodge twice as much as one with 1200 Stamina.

Xeniph

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Talons isn't a CC ability, and therefor doesn't grant you CC immunity, there is nothing to balance here. If you want it to be balanced, then suggest lowering the damage? But having an ability that isn't a CC grant CC immunity is like... Breaking my brain, so please stop.

Encase is the exact same ability, and Sorcerers' have access to it, so if you get so upset about Talon spam, then you're lucky you've never met a Sword/Board Sorcerer that bolts in and encases everyone.

If all you people seriously won't stop complaining about Talons being overpowered, then there is a simple fix. Reduce the stamina cost of roll dodging out of roots by X. Then it doesn't matter how many times a Dragonknight spams Talons because you'll always have stamina to roll out of it, if this fix doesn't suit you. Then you're just asking another Dragonknight ability to be nerfed and not actually providing any structural criticism.

Also, stop asking for CC immunity from an ability that isn't a CC.... Roots do not grant CC immunity people, Talons is a Root, Encase is a Root, Crippling Grasp is a root, give Talons a CC immunity timer and then both these abilities require it as well, as well with the Fighter's Guild Trap ability that no one uses.

Using encase fails in 1.6 from either a bug or changed mechanic. It also doesn't prof crystal frags which it used to do. Unless the person is standing still you can almost never encase them. With talons they can be moving all around and get taloned.

This is simply not true, or at least not my experience.

Encase most certainly does proc crystal fragments. Just tested it 2 minutes ago in 1.6.3.

Yes it takes a bit more patience/skill to use, but it does work. And it's not as expensive to use as I hear others claim.


As to Talons. There are so many ways to counter it, that it's really a non issue. I think what most people have an issue with is the damage component. I myself just stand in it and face tank the DK. as it's really only deadly when running as a Vamp. Unless I am on my Sorc, in which case I just use BE.

It is a bit annoying when 2-3 start spamming it, but as someone else pointed out, that would be a bad situation no matter what skill the 3 were using.

As to the "DK's got a nerf and suck in 1.6.3" hit the PTS and duel a DK named Pact Guard. He's most assuredly a beast.

BEZDNA

LOL LOL LOL LOL - bring the LOL button back so i LOL to deaf all TC who don't want to learn to play and only able to whine on forums about abilities they don't know how to counter.

Talons are TOTALY OK! It was OP befor with the big radius, but now it's ok as it is!

They are very easy to conter:
1. roll out
2. rapid manuver
3. purge
4. and ofc - kiting OP agains DK

If you cant manage yo resourses or find a slot on you bar for purge - it's a players problem not a balance iisue. And btw - all abilitys are spamable in this game, it's not a talong problem - it's a gme design.

ArconSeptim

Smepic wrote: »

As we all probably can agree on, the Dragonknight skill Talons is one of the more overpowered skills in the game. The fact that it is not affected by cc-immunity and does not grant you cc-immunity when you roll dodge out of it is plain stupidity. This skill is able to lock down down enemies in an aoe range, providing either a dot effect or reduced damage done, and with the combination of a gap closer and Talons, it is almost impossible for the target to break free.

I don't think it's fair that an ability is able to permanently lock down an enemy with such ease. Thoughts?

Look who is freaking talking!! A Sorcerer! Please ZOS don't be so easy and listen.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Domander

Who's going to be able to "spam" talons in 1.6?

There's more immobilize abilities than talons in the game, and roll dodge is an easy counter. (almost too easy)

This thread is rediculous

Islyn

I think they should just nerf complaining. Job done. (Don't LOL because you can't.)

Panda244

Islyn wrote: »

I think they should just nerf complaining. Job done. (Don't LOL because you can't.)

It's okay, Insightful is the new lol anyways.

Islyn

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Francescolg wrote: »

The problem is not Talons itself but players spamming it over and over up to 5+ times in a row. ROLL OUT will not help if Talons is being spammed more than 2/3 times.

To all you [snip], THIS is the correct answer. Any intelligent DK will just keep applying Talons to you until you are are out of stamina dodge rolling, then drop SoM and you are cooked. If you have been able to dodge roll out and then move on, you have simply been playing against idiot DKs. period.

I am not even the best PVPer by a LAWWWWWNNNNG shot but I have beat down DKs on both my NB and my Templar - and I have witnesses. Roll Dodge, killkillkill roll dodge.

Half the time they kill me, half I kill them - Same difference.

Manage your resources and don't SPAZ OUT and SPAM your skills. Skill spammage is number one reason for death in PVP situation if you ask me.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Panda244

Islyn wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Francescolg wrote: »

The problem is not Talons itself but players spamming it over and over up to 5+ times in a row. ROLL OUT will not help if Talons is being spammed more than 2/3 times.

To all you L2P ****tards, THIS is the correct answer. Any intelligent DK will just keep applying Talons to you until you are are out of stamina dodge rolling, then drop SoM and you are cooked. If you have been able to dodge roll out and then move on, you have simply been playing against idiot DKs. period.

I am not even the best PVPer by a LAWWWWWNNNNG shot but I have beat down DKs on both my NB and my Templar - and I have witnesses. Roll Dodge, killkillkill roll dodge.

Half the time they kill me, half I kill them - Same difference.

Manage your resources and don't SPAZ OUT and SPAM your skills. Skill spammage is number one reason for death in PVP situation if you ask me.

L2P (Sorry )

Aye, any idiot DK will keep reapplying talons and run himself out of magicka, and then he'll die. I use Talons once in a group scenario and at least 1 of the 3-5 people I talons'd will have been killed by the group, I hardly ever use it in 1v1 situations aside from duels, when you can use it then get behind the person and they can't turn to attack you. Oh and for the person that will probably say "That's cheating."

There is no cheating, there is surviving, and there is dying.

Islyn

Panda244 wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Francescolg wrote: »

The problem is not Talons itself but players spamming it over and over up to 5+ times in a row. ROLL OUT will not help if Talons is being spammed more than 2/3 times.

To all you L2P ****tards, THIS is the correct answer. Any intelligent DK will just keep applying Talons to you until you are are out of stamina dodge rolling, then drop SoM and you are cooked. If you have been able to dodge roll out and then move on, you have simply been playing against idiot DKs. period.

I am not even the best PVPer by a LAWWWWWNNNNG shot but I have beat down DKs on both my NB and my Templar - and I have witnesses. Roll Dodge, killkillkill roll dodge.

Half the time they kill me, half I kill them - Same difference.

Manage your resources and don't SPAZ OUT and SPAM your skills. Skill spammage is number one reason for death in PVP situation if you ask me.

L2P (Sorry )

Aye, any idiot DK will keep reapplying talons and run himself out of magicka, and then he'll die. I use Talons once in a group scenario and at least 1 of the 3-5 people I talons'd will have been killed by the group, I hardly ever use it in 1v1 situations aside from duels, when you can use it then get behind the person and they can't turn to attack you. Oh and for the person that will probably say "That's cheating."

There is no cheating, there is surviving, and there is dying.

LOL All's fair in Love and War! (Roll Dodge, Blazing shield, Shards, Jesus Beam and Have a nice horsey ride!)

Tonnopesce

Dont cry for a nerf or they will ruin the pve utility of the skill..... I use it alot as a tank

Night-claw

no more "lol" then AHAHA talon should be nerfed. It damage was already nerf some patches ago but i do understand where your coming from.

Gargragrond

Some time ago people were complaining about single dk tanking 30 people. Now the complaint seems to be that if you fight 3 DKs at once, you may not be able to move freely. Well, few more nerfs should fix it.

technohic

All I would like is to have hard stuns overwrite roots and roots not apply if you are already stunned. That's not limited to DK or Talons.

Armitas

Here is the skinny on why this has likely not been nerfed.

Facts.
1. This is not a cheap cast, it is our third most expensive ability, the most expensive is ashcloud which is now lol, then dragon blood, slightly behind that is dark talons at 420magicka per cast.
2. To reapply talons to someone who has just rolled out of them a gap closer is required making a talon spam a double cast en-devour. This is accomplished either by chains (when it works), or by melee weapon line costing both stamina and magicka, one of which will not be efficient.
3. 1/3 of it's damage is over time

So to spam talon's it takes 2 casts, 1/3 of the damage is avoided due to evacuation, and the duration of the root is less than a second due to evacuation. Why should that provide immunity when it didn't even provide an effective root or all of it's damage? That is as bad as the full immunity that is now provided from a single and individually worthless knockback on biting jabs.

If you want immunity then let people break free of talons, and provide immunity after the full duration is up. Immunity should not be provided for being tickled and rooted for .5 seconds, that would make the skill a detriment in PvP as it would prevent actually useful CC, like fear, from working. The tool tip would need to be changed to read, "provides CC immunity for up to 70 enemy players in range".

Also. I have been rooted by sorcs 5x in a row, this is not just a DK thing it is a Sorc and DK thing.

Stalwart385

Wow another call for a talons nerf.

Some of us remember the monster it used to be. I'll never forget the huge range and uncapped AoE roots. Used to be a thing of beauty.

In all seriousness, I understand the call for a CC immunity but the truth is roots are the weakest CCs (It's harder to get rid of a snare). I think you should still be able to follow talons with a knockdown, even though spamming talons may not be right. I do feel that if you are getting talons spammed on you, you are doing something wrong not to win. It's an expensive AoE spell that is easily countered with a dodge roll. I only use it as a situational root or against large groups. Also on the PvE side you won't like it when your tanks can't keep mobs locked down and they start swarming you.