This new damage stack/spam meta will be the death of PvP

Panda244

Cody wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

For God's sake don't remove shield stacking. It's part of what makes the game so much fun.

Stacking shields means you have more defensive abilities slotted, you spend more mana on defensive abilities and thus have less offensive power. It's just a balancing issue, so please don't het out the axe again.

Less offensive power?

OK. You do realize that someone stacking all those damage shields STILL has access to all of their offensive capabilities right? They have access to much of their offensive capabilities, AND have the defense almost equivalent of a tank.

A player SHOULD NOT have access to both high offense and high defense. They should have to choose between the two. A player having both results in boring and frustrating gameplay. don't believe me? go play on live right now and you will see.

Except at the rate a damage shield diminishes in large battles means they have to keep spamming the damage shield buttons, meaning they aren't doing any damage. At all. Because they're shield stacking. In 1v1 or smaller scale it just means the other people need to up the damage or stun the guy.

If only it were that simple.....

if only

You do realize if they remove damage shields then people, at least most DKs, will revert to FOTM builds. Damage shields let players be diverse because it offers great defense, if you lose that D then people will QQ and PvP will be a battle of the stealth builds, which are already OP. As a damage shield user I can tell you this on live, they don't work. And they don't stack any more on 1.6 than they do in 1.5. If I want I can invest another 200 points into magicka and have a 100% damage shield between igneous shield and harness.... But I like having 1.8k stam, 3k HP and 2.6k magicka...

RinaldoGandolphi

You know it gets old folks complaining about shield stacking.

I am a sorc, I am squishy, those damage shields only last long enough to get away from having a two handed sword rammed through my gullet.

They had to make shields viable for LA users or we wouldn't stand a chance.

JLB

Block = OP, nerf it
Shields = OP, nerf it

See a pattern there?
Seriously, defensive mechanisms such as block and shields are vital to keep diversity in the game.
As been mentioned, if I spam Blazing Shield as a Templar I am not doing any damage (edit: unless it's a noob), my magicka is going down at the same rate as you do fully dpsing.
A Good DoT + weaving attacks is enough to burst that shield without spending more resources than the actual shield cost.
Plus: you all have options for shields with your classes/weapon enchants/set bonuses/ CP. It's a defensive tool any class can have, please don't blame the ones who chose to use it just because you don't feel like using it.

Thejollygreenone

woodsro wrote: »

You know it gets old folks complaining about shield stacking.

I am a sorc, I am squishy, those damage shields only last long enough to get away from having a two handed sword rammed through my gullet.

They had to make shields viable for LA users or we wouldn't stand a chance.

Sounds pretty unbalanced that the survival of LA users comes down to a single combat mechanic.

Anyone starting to see my problem with this? :-/

It should be an option, not the mandatory. Nerfing may not be the solution certainly, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem nor does it excuse not solving said problem. This goes for a lot of those in these threads as well who are advocating for damage absorbs being left untouched.

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

For God's sake don't remove shield stacking. It's part of what makes the game so much fun.

Stacking shields means you have more defensive abilities slotted, you spend more mana on defensive abilities and thus have less offensive power. It's just a balancing issue, so please don't het out the axe again.

Less offensive power?

OK. You do realize that someone stacking all those damage shields STILL has access to all of their offensive capabilities right? They have access to much of their offensive capabilities, AND have the defense almost equivalent of a tank.

A player SHOULD NOT have access to both high offense and high defense. They should have to choose between the two. A player having both results in boring and frustrating gameplay. don't believe me? go play on live right now and you will see.

Except at the rate a damage shield diminishes in large battles means they have to keep spamming the damage shield buttons, meaning they aren't doing any damage. At all. Because they're shield stacking. In 1v1 or smaller scale it just means the other people need to up the damage or stun the guy.

If only it were that simple.....

if only

You do realize if they remove damage shields then people, at least most DKs, will revert to FOTM builds. Damage shields let players be diverse because it offers great defense, if you lose that D then people will QQ and PvP will be a battle of the stealth builds, which are already OP. As a damage shield user I can tell you this on live, they don't work. And they don't stack any more on 1.6 than they do in 1.5. If I want I can invest another 200 points into magicka and have a 100% damage shield between igneous shield and harness.... But I like having 1.8k stam, 3k HP and 2.6k magicka...

It seems every time you post in this thread with your position you always state things that go wrong if we get rid of or nerf damage absorbs and/or the stacking of them. I think you're getting ahead of yourself, we're still in the stages of debating if it's a problem.

Just because things can go wrong in the solution to a problem, doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist, as I mention above. My position is that the current prevalence, necessity, and overwhelming advantage of utilizing damage absorb shields are overtuned and needs to be toned down.

I'd really like to see it become a choice rather than a mandatory, and for certain builds rather than the majority. Filling a niche, in other words, rather than the status quo.

Domander

Wahee wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Wahee wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Wahee wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build.

The problem with damage shields is that there is no counter except to use them yourself, exactly as you described. Healing is a great example. Heals can be debuffed, and the debuff can be purged. An effective counter with its own counter. Blocking is countered by rapid attacks to drain stam. High armor/spell resistance is countered by penetration and debuffs. Damage shields are countered by.....nothing?

The only way to outlast/survive against a damage shield it to also use a damage shield to equalize your mitigation with your opponent. No other form of mitigation comes close to competing with shields because there is no counter to shields.

Damage shields are countered by damage.

...I just really don't even.

You say damage shields have no counter, they are countered by damage and CC. The problem right now is that the resource cost for a lot of damage abilities is more than for shields.

I'm also pretty sure you don't have to use a damage shield to counter a damage shield.

I'm pointing out that a lot of what you're saying is just not true.

You say there is no counter.

You say that you must use a shield yourself.

I don't think you understand what the word counter means. Heal dubuff is a counter to heals. Damage alone can kill a healing player in spite of the heals, but it is not a counter to healing.

Shields need a counter, a skill or debuff that negates or lessens their effectiveness. Just like every other form of mitigation.

I know what counter means, I say it's damage because it's unmitigated damage. (full) Maybe lots of damage would be a better way to put it? CC also. I'm not sure how else you'd get past those shields.


I agree some other option would be nice though, like a spell or ability that removes positive effects from an enemy.

Panda244

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

You know it gets old folks complaining about shield stacking.

I am a sorc, I am squishy, those damage shields only last long enough to get away from having a two handed sword rammed through my gullet.

They had to make shields viable for LA users or we wouldn't stand a chance.

Sounds pretty unbalanced that the survival of LA users comes down to a single combat mechanic.

Anyone starting to see my problem with this? :-/

It should be an option, not the mandatory. Nerfing may not be the solution certainly, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem nor does it excuse not solving said problem. This goes for a lot of those in these threads as well who are advocating for damage absorbs being left untouched.

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

For God's sake don't remove shield stacking. It's part of what makes the game so much fun.

Stacking shields means you have more defensive abilities slotted, you spend more mana on defensive abilities and thus have less offensive power. It's just a balancing issue, so please don't het out the axe again.

Less offensive power?

OK. You do realize that someone stacking all those damage shields STILL has access to all of their offensive capabilities right? They have access to much of their offensive capabilities, AND have the defense almost equivalent of a tank.

A player SHOULD NOT have access to both high offense and high defense. They should have to choose between the two. A player having both results in boring and frustrating gameplay. don't believe me? go play on live right now and you will see.

Except at the rate a damage shield diminishes in large battles means they have to keep spamming the damage shield buttons, meaning they aren't doing any damage. At all. Because they're shield stacking. In 1v1 or smaller scale it just means the other people need to up the damage or stun the guy.

If only it were that simple.....

if only

You do realize if they remove damage shields then people, at least most DKs, will revert to FOTM builds. Damage shields let players be diverse because it offers great defense, if you lose that D then people will QQ and PvP will be a battle of the stealth builds, which are already OP. As a damage shield user I can tell you this on live, they don't work. And they don't stack any more on 1.6 than they do in 1.5. If I want I can invest another 200 points into magicka and have a 100% damage shield between igneous shield and harness.... But I like having 1.8k stam, 3k HP and 2.6k magicka...

It seems every time you post in this thread with your position you always state things that go wrong if we get rid of or nerf damage absorbs and/or the stacking of them. I think you're getting ahead of yourself, we're still in the stages of debating if it's a problem.

Just because things can go wrong in the solution to a problem, doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist, as I mention above. My position is that the current prevalence, necessity, and overwhelming advantage of utilizing damage absorb shields are overtuned and needs to be toned down.

I'd really like to see it become a choice rather than a mandatory, and for certain builds rather than the majority. Filling a niche, in other words, rather than the status quo.

Then no it's not a problem, plenty of ways around shield stackers and plenty of ways to survive burst damage without shield stacking.

Snit

I have a bad feeling this will end with LA wearers being more or less obsolete.

decado0024_ESO

Panda244 wrote: »

There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build. Damage stacking is a thing, it doesn't effect large scale PvP battles at all so I have no problem with it, and in small scale battles I just run the shield stacker out of stamina then stun him, and he melts. If they try to fix this, which isn't broken, Sorcs will lose out on all their fun because they'll be weaker than a dung beetle. Sorcs need shield stacking to survive.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Damage does not need to go down. Try fighting someone in heavy armor, damage is not high. It just seems high because everyone wants to run around in light armor and be as tanky as before 1.6. Light armor finally has drawbacks (although these drawbacks are mostly circumvented by shield stacking)

You're not as tanky as before though, if your damage shield drops you get smacked in the face with higher damage. Not to mention the insane rate of stamina drain when blocking, shield stacking is a thing, and it forces the person to stop all offense to do it, so I have no issues with it. The only time I ever "Stack" shields with any of my characters is when I'm on my DK, surrounded by 5 or more people, at low health, I hit Draw Essence, swap bars, drop cinder storm, igneous shield, harness magicka, GDB, swap bars, Draw Essence, talons, rince repeat.

The shields are to give me a breather, they don't make me god. Every class has access to something that gives them a breather, Sorcs have blink, NBs have cloak, when it works, Temps have Blazing Shield, DKs get Igneous Shield.

The only offense based shield is Blazing... The rest are fine. If they nerf shield stacking they have to nerf overall damage, because without shields you'll run into a large group stacked on a flag and incinerate faster than you already do WITH shields.

This is exactly whats wrong with your entire statment and new gameplay in general, you dont need shields to survive. I have been PVPing on the PTS server since it opened, some of the best fights that last several mins have been against sorcs that arent hiding behind shields. Hell saber ali from the DC faction runs around with a 2hand sword and streaks crit rush- wrecking blow and destroys ppl.

You mentioned above that every class has something to help them, you pointed out that every class has a shield except nightblades we get cloak. You even point out that its broken more often than not. Why does everyone get hard damage nullification tools except nightblades? Yes i know we have access to all the armor and weapon shields but we dont have a class shield. Why should nightblades be forced to use a resto staff and completly change the way THEY WANT TO PLAY? That is how the game was advertised. All the people on here that are pro shield stacking are only looking out for them selves and their play style.

Not only do shields ruin PVP but they completely negate any kind of intuitive thought process on char building. Why waste time playing with different builds when u can just stack shields and run around telling ppl to l2p. REMOVE the shields. So what if they are gone you as a player elected to be a magic user and do magic damage and light robes are a part of that. You dont get to have shields that ignore the dagger ever so simply sliding thru your ribs. If you are worried about that get heavy armor. I don't want to be a tank or a mage i want to be the guy that sneaks around and assassinates people. If im good at it and i come at you unawares your dead learn situational awareness if im bad at it and you catch me my medium armor should not stop that raging fireball from burning me down. It's your choice, it shouldnt be your choice oh and heres this nice i win button to eliminate all the downfalls of your choice.

So you want to be a vamp better sacrifice that damage enchantment for some fire resist or your done. So you make a choice.

Panda244

decado0024_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build. Damage stacking is a thing, it doesn't effect large scale PvP battles at all so I have no problem with it, and in small scale battles I just run the shield stacker out of stamina then stun him, and he melts. If they try to fix this, which isn't broken, Sorcs will lose out on all their fun because they'll be weaker than a dung beetle. Sorcs need shield stacking to survive.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Damage does not need to go down. Try fighting someone in heavy armor, damage is not high. It just seems high because everyone wants to run around in light armor and be as tanky as before 1.6. Light armor finally has drawbacks (although these drawbacks are mostly circumvented by shield stacking)

You're not as tanky as before though, if your damage shield drops you get smacked in the face with higher damage. Not to mention the insane rate of stamina drain when blocking, shield stacking is a thing, and it forces the person to stop all offense to do it, so I have no issues with it. The only time I ever "Stack" shields with any of my characters is when I'm on my DK, surrounded by 5 or more people, at low health, I hit Draw Essence, swap bars, drop cinder storm, igneous shield, harness magicka, GDB, swap bars, Draw Essence, talons, rince repeat.

The shields are to give me a breather, they don't make me god. Every class has access to something that gives them a breather, Sorcs have blink, NBs have cloak, when it works, Temps have Blazing Shield, DKs get Igneous Shield.

The only offense based shield is Blazing... The rest are fine. If they nerf shield stacking they have to nerf overall damage, because without shields you'll run into a large group stacked on a flag and incinerate faster than you already do WITH shields.

This is exactly whats wrong with your entire statment and new gameplay in general, you dont need shields to survive. I have been PVPing on the PTS server since it opened, some of the best fights that last several mins have been against sorcs that arent hiding behind shields. Hell saber ali from the DC faction runs around with a 2hand sword and streaks crit rush- wrecking blow and destroys ppl.

You mentioned above that every class has something to help them, you pointed out that every class has a shield except nightblades we get cloak. You even point out that its broken more often than not. Why does everyone get hard damage nullification tools except nightblades? Yes i know we have access to all the armor and weapon shields but we dont have a class shield. Why should nightblades be forced to use a resto staff and completly change the way THEY WANT TO PLAY? That is how the game was advertised. All the people on here that are pro shield stacking are only looking out for them selves and their play style.

Not only do shields ruin PVP but they completely negate any kind of intuitive thought process on char building. Why waste time playing with different builds when u can just stack shields and run around telling ppl to l2p. REMOVE the shields. So what if they are gone you as a player elected to be a magic user and do magic damage and light robes are a part of that. You dont get to have shields that ignore the dagger ever so simply sliding thru your ribs. If you are worried about that get heavy armor. I don't want to be a tank or a mage i want to be the guy that sneaks around and assassinates people. If im good at it and i come at you unawares your dead learn situational awareness if im bad at it and you catch me my medium armor should not stop that raging fireball from burning me down. It's your choice, it shouldnt be your choice oh and heres this nice i win button to eliminate all the downfalls of your choice.

So you want to be a vamp better sacrifice that damage enchantment for some fire resist or your done. So you make a choice.

I still fail to see your point.... "Play the way you want" Sure. Just not effective at all because of the way PvP works and the way you have a limited abilities. Shield stacking has been in since launch, almost a year ago, there is nothing wrong with it, there is nothing wrong with the people that use it..... It's like using a meatbag catapult against the emperors, it's just something everyone does without thinking cause it helps them live.

Lynx7386

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

High TTK = Boring. Who wants to be in a fight where nobody dies that lasts for minutes on end.

Low TTK is exciting, because at any moment you could be bursted down and instantly killed if you dont react fast enough by blocking, rolling, cc breaking, or recasting a shield.

Right now the TTK is just more diverse. You die faster in light, and slower in heavy. We dont know what the best armor is yet, but light armor finally has at least some kind of disadvantage, even though its mostly nullified by shield stacking.

I disagree, vehemently. In a longer battle, tactics and personal skill come into play to a far greater degree. In a quick battle, the deciding factor is almost always who attacks first (sneak damage bonus) or who has the better gear, level, etc.

Long fights, especially 1 on 1 fights, have always been more fulfilling to me as a pvper. I dont like being destroyed in a matter of seconds, and I find it unsatisfying when I do the same to my opponents.

xylena

dk igneous shield and temp blazing shield both scale off max health... sorc hardened ward, resto healing ward, all other shields should behave the same way... this way, you only get big shields if you spec into max health, which means you have to sacrifice some of your offensive resource (magic) in order to do so... that would go a long way towards balancing magicka-based shield stacks

xylena

also don't see why shields need to prevent opponents from getting crits or generating ult

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Wahee wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build.

The problem with damage shields is that there is no counter except to use them yourself, exactly as you described. Healing is a great example. Heals can be debuffed, and the debuff can be purged. An effective counter with its own counter. Blocking is countered by rapid attacks to drain stam. High armor/spell resistance is countered by penetration and debuffs. Damage shields are countered by.....nothing?

The only way to outlast/survive against a damage shield it to also use a damage shield to equalize your mitigation with your opponent. No other form of mitigation comes close to competing with shields because there is no counter to shields.

Damage shields are countered by damage.

You do know it takes atleast 2 offensive skills, or an ultimate to get rid of one shield? And that those multiple offensive skills cost more magicka/stamina than that one shield?

No longer true on pts. Some skills are very much capable of getting rid of a shield with 1 hit + light attack.

McDoogs

I dont know if it's been mentioned, and I havent tested siege damage much on pts yet (off hours pvp primarily ), but it's my opinion that siege damage should not be fully mitigated by damage shields.

At least half of siege damage should go through. You shouldnt be able to stack a cpl of shields and get through a 'well-oiled' chokepoint in PA without a dent to your hp due to absorbing all incoming damage.

Derra

Lynx7386 wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

High TTK = Boring. Who wants to be in a fight where nobody dies that lasts for minutes on end.

Low TTK is exciting, because at any moment you could be bursted down and instantly killed if you dont react fast enough by blocking, rolling, cc breaking, or recasting a shield.

Right now the TTK is just more diverse. You die faster in light, and slower in heavy. We dont know what the best armor is yet, but light armor finally has at least some kind of disadvantage, even though its mostly nullified by shield stacking.

I disagree, vehemently. In a longer battle, tactics and personal skill come into play to a far greater degree. In a quick battle, the deciding factor is almost always who attacks first (sneak damage bonus) or who has the better gear, level, etc.

Long fights, especially 1 on 1 fights, have always been more fulfilling to me as a pvper. I dont like being destroyed in a matter of seconds, and I find it unsatisfying when I do the same to my opponents.

This is true to some extend. However if you achieve long fights due to high mitigation/low dmg it would destroy the open pvp.
There is already a pattern (atleast on the eu servers) where players just hold block and heal and wait for adds to arrive because they know they can not be broken fast enough (that is not how it should work in my opinion).

Defense in long fights needs to be an active mechanism you have to work for and not something that is inherited by every character.
The option to have high mitigation comes with heavy armor in 1.6 and it comes at the somewhat rightful cost of dmg / resource management.

I don´t know how medium armor builds are doing on pts. But i know that light armor builds need heals/shields to remain somewhat vaible. They are 2 shotted without them, literally.
Also they come at the cost that you can´t do anything offensive thus giving away momentum in the fight (not true for blazing shield).

My approach would be something different. Maybe give dodgeroll something similar to a dmg shield. If you don´t dodge X attacks during the roll you will dodge the next attack doing more than 10%/15% whatever of your health for the next five seconds (if medium armor still has defense problems on pts).

Xexpo

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

People are going to disagree with me, people are going to insult my intelligence, but this new damage shield stacking meta WILL be the death of this game's PvP if it goes live like this.

I do not know the exact reasons why damage shield stacking is so powerful now in the PTS. I personally blame the lack of softcaps, but it could be anything; whatever the reason, this new meta is going to destroy what's left of PvP if it goes live like this. If it goes live like this, it will force many people to "adapt" to this new damage shield meta. Players will HAVE to use damage shield spam/stack builds just to survive. Players will not be able to play the builds that they want, and it WILL drive MANY people away from PvP. Not everyone purchased ESO and involved themselves in PvP just to use a damage shield stack/spam build. Many people want to do something different.

I don't care what the elite Ofthis game are going to say: WE SHOULD NOT BE FORCED INTO ONE PLAY STYLE JUST TO SURVIVE. "play how you want" is this game's motto. It does NOT mean "every build works" However, it also does NOT mean "play this one way or die"

So go ahead and laugh. Call me a "baddy" and give me the typical "L2P" response, but it will not change the reality of the situation. PvP IS GOING TO DIE IF 1.6 GOES LIVE LIKE THIS.

I have not even mentioned the other problems...:(

I hope I turn out to be wrong, but that is what I think will happen.

OK, say whatever y'all will.

DK example. 1vX scenario. Lets say with 60 FPS and 120 ping.

DK swaps bars and hits igneous and harness. Both are damage shields.
The five people on the DK melt his shields before he swaps back to his sword n board bar, DK swaps back and stacks shields. Rince repeat. Over. And over. Until Dk runs out of stamina or runs out of magicka and dies.

Shield Stacker < Smart People

Shield stacking never worked and never has worked. It's just a silly tactic idiots use to tank indefinitely and do no damage, if someone has to reapply a shield every time it drops they will not under any circumstances be dealing a lot of damage. Unless the people dealing damage to them are absolutely horrible and can't break a shield... For a NB it's incredibly easy to break someones' damage shield, Ambush, Surprise Attack, or Ambush, Incap Strike.

In what type of situation are you referring? When you are trying to 8v1 said shield stacker?
I know I do it to turtle up until friends and allies can come even the odds. I am a big idiot, I know.
also, I love it when nightblades come in all tough just in time to burst my blazing shield.

*didn't read comments*

Panda244

kaer426 wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

People are going to disagree with me, people are going to insult my intelligence, but this new damage shield stacking meta WILL be the death of this game's PvP if it goes live like this.

I do not know the exact reasons why damage shield stacking is so powerful now in the PTS. I personally blame the lack of softcaps, but it could be anything; whatever the reason, this new meta is going to destroy what's left of PvP if it goes live like this. If it goes live like this, it will force many people to "adapt" to this new damage shield meta. Players will HAVE to use damage shield spam/stack builds just to survive. Players will not be able to play the builds that they want, and it WILL drive MANY people away from PvP. Not everyone purchased ESO and involved themselves in PvP just to use a damage shield stack/spam build. Many people want to do something different.

I don't care what the elite Ofthis game are going to say: WE SHOULD NOT BE FORCED INTO ONE PLAY STYLE JUST TO SURVIVE. "play how you want" is this game's motto. It does NOT mean "every build works" However, it also does NOT mean "play this one way or die"

So go ahead and laugh. Call me a "baddy" and give me the typical "L2P" response, but it will not change the reality of the situation. PvP IS GOING TO DIE IF 1.6 GOES LIVE LIKE THIS.

I have not even mentioned the other problems...:(

I hope I turn out to be wrong, but that is what I think will happen.

OK, say whatever y'all will.

DK example. 1vX scenario. Lets say with 60 FPS and 120 ping.

DK swaps bars and hits igneous and harness. Both are damage shields.
The five people on the DK melt his shields before he swaps back to his sword n board bar, DK swaps back and stacks shields. Rince repeat. Over. And over. Until Dk runs out of stamina or runs out of magicka and dies.

Shield Stacker < Smart People

Shield stacking never worked and never has worked. It's just a silly tactic idiots use to tank indefinitely and do no damage, if someone has to reapply a shield every time it drops they will not under any circumstances be dealing a lot of damage. Unless the people dealing damage to them are absolutely horrible and can't break a shield... For a NB it's incredibly easy to break someones' damage shield, Ambush, Surprise Attack, or Ambush, Incap Strike.

In what type of situation are you referring? When you are trying to 8v1 said shield stacker?
I know I do it to turtle up until friends and allies can come even the odds. I am a big idiot, I know.
also, I love it when nightblades come in all tough just in time to burst my blazing shield.

*didn't read comments*

That's what I'm trying to explain, shield stacking only lets someone turtle for so long... They WILL run out of resources after a while and they will die. Takes longer in smaller situations but in 1v8 scenarios well you may as well just drop block and bend over.... Grape is immanent.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Wahee wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build.

The problem with damage shields is that there is no counter except to use them yourself, exactly as you described. Healing is a great example. Heals can be debuffed, and the debuff can be purged. An effective counter with its own counter. Blocking is countered by rapid attacks to drain stam. High armor/spell resistance is countered by penetration and debuffs. Damage shields are countered by.....nothing?

The only way to outlast/survive against a damage shield it to also use a damage shield to equalize your mitigation with your opponent. No other form of mitigation comes close to competing with shields because there is no counter to shields.

Damage shields are countered by damage.

You do know it takes atleast 2 offensive skills, or an ultimate to get rid of one shield? And that those multiple offensive skills cost more magicka/stamina than that one shield?

No longer true on pts. Some skills are very much capable of getting rid of a shield with 1 hit + light attack.

I will do my tests on PTS, once EU characters have been copied.

If I cannot break one shield with one Surprise Attack (one for one) or equal attack, I will keep complaining.

If I cannot crit, generate ulti, proc weapon enchantments/set bonuses, generate charges on skills like Grim Focus, I will keep complaining.

Panda244 wrote: »

I still fail to see your point.... "Play the way you want" Sure. Just not effective at all because of the way PvP works and the way you have a limited abilities. Shield stacking has been in since launch, almost a year ago, there is nothing wrong with it, there is nothing wrong with the people that use it..... It's like using a meatbag catapult against the emperors, it's just something everyone does without thinking cause it helps them live.

I highlighted what you just said.

This is exactly what is wrong with it.

It's something everyone does, requires zero thought (skill) & helps them live.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Wahee wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build.

The problem with damage shields is that there is no counter except to use them yourself, exactly as you described. Healing is a great example. Heals can be debuffed, and the debuff can be purged. An effective counter with its own counter. Blocking is countered by rapid attacks to drain stam. High armor/spell resistance is countered by penetration and debuffs. Damage shields are countered by.....nothing?

The only way to outlast/survive against a damage shield it to also use a damage shield to equalize your mitigation with your opponent. No other form of mitigation comes close to competing with shields because there is no counter to shields.

Damage shields are countered by damage.

You do know it takes atleast 2 offensive skills, or an ultimate to get rid of one shield? And that those multiple offensive skills cost more magicka/stamina than that one shield?

No longer true on pts. Some skills are very much capable of getting rid of a shield with 1 hit + light attack.

I will do my tests on PTS, once EU characters have been copied.

If I cannot break one shield with one Surprise Attack (one for one) or equal attack, I will keep complaining.

If I cannot crit, generate ulti, proc weapon enchantments/set bonuses, generate charges on skills like Grim Focus, I will keep complaining.

I agree with ultimate generation, weapon enchants/setbonuses and charges.

Not crits however. Shields are are barrier of some kind of energy. You can´t critically hit that (atleast when you think as a crit of a hit on a lucky punch on vital parts/organs). Also with crits on shields they´d be obsolete as without dmg mitigation active on shields you´d be able to crit on shields for 1.5 or more of their value.

Joy_Division

Has there actually been PvP on the PTS or just dueling? Because I have tried to get in PvP on the PTS and never see any crossed swords.

How is this different from 1.5? Duels between players who use damage shields take forever and are quite boring. There are softcaps but how much more magicka are people relatively getting? And aren't they borking their stamina and health for maxing that one stat...and isn't that a good thing with pros/cons and all that diversity?

What I am trying to say is this. Ever since April, shields were REQUIRED if you were getting targeted by enemy players because the players cant just rely on their armor and spell resistance to mitigate damage. If players know they won;t be targetted often or have a reliable means to avoid a single attacker (typically ranged players), then they don't need a shield. How is 1.6 different and how do when know with only 20 people in PvP test server at a given time?

In short, how can one hop on the low population PTS, then play something the designers did not intend AVA to be or is nothing like what Thornblade will be in 1.6 and declare PvP will be destroyed?

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO

My question is: A heavy armor user have the same survivability as a light armor user with damage shields?

I think it should be pretty even, considering that the moment someone using light armor don't have a "bubble" up is the moment he is dead. And as a heavy armor user you shouldn't have to worry too much about damage shields, considering your defense is high enough and that tanks always have high HP.

Glory

Joy_Division wrote: »

Has there actually been PvP on the PTS or just dueling? Because I have tried to get in PvP on the PTS and never see any crossed swords.

How is this different from 1.5? Duels between players who use damage shields take forever and are quite boring. There are softcaps but how much more magicka are people relatively getting? And aren't they borking their stamina and health for maxing that one stat...and isn't that a good thing with pros/cons and all that diversity?

What I am trying to say is this. Ever since April, shields were REQUIRED if you were getting targeted by enemy players because the players cant just rely on their armor and spell resistance to mitigate damage. If players know they won;t be targetted often or have a reliable means to avoid a single attacker (typically ranged players), then they don't need a shield. How is 1.6 different and how do when know with only 20 people in PvP test server at a given time?

In short, how can one hop on the low population PTS, then play something the designers did not intend AVA to be or is nothing like what Thornblade will be in 1.6 and declare PvP will be destroyed?

Pretty much all the fights going on that people are referring to are 1v1, 2v2, etc. I've been in some open world fights as a light armor wearer and have gotten blown up by Snipe and Wrecking Blow was easier than any light armor wearer's skills.

As you guessed it, these tests are mostly a bunch of non-duelers trying to apply duel scenarios to open world and say things are OP. Sure, Wrecking Blow does insane damage, but in open world you're probably going to get blown up during the cast time. Sure, shields can be strong when you're trying to survive one person's onslaught but you're going to get shrekt when two stamina wearer's snipe you and take out your shields in half a hit.

ToRelax

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO wrote: »

My question is: A heavy armor user have the same survivability as a light armor user with damage shields?

I think it should be pretty even, considering that the moment someone using light armor don't have a "bubble" up is the moment he is dead. And as a heavy armor user you shouldn't have to worry too much about damage shields, considering your defense is high enough and that tanks always have high HP.

On PTS it seems heavy armor builds are way more tanky than light armor builds with shields, due to skills like Sun/Obsidian Shield, Dragon Blood and Efficient Purge scaling off your max health.
With high damage mitigation and a large health pool it's very hard to kill you.

sabresandiego_ESO

Lynx7386 wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

High TTK = Boring. Who wants to be in a fight where nobody dies that lasts for minutes on end.

Low TTK is exciting, because at any moment you could be bursted down and instantly killed if you dont react fast enough by blocking, rolling, cc breaking, or recasting a shield.

Right now the TTK is just more diverse. You die faster in light, and slower in heavy. We dont know what the best armor is yet, but light armor finally has at least some kind of disadvantage, even though its mostly nullified by shield stacking.

I disagree, vehemently. In a longer battle, tactics and personal skill come into play to a far greater degree. In a quick battle, the deciding factor is almost always who attacks first (sneak damage bonus) or who has the better gear, level, etc.

Long fights, especially 1 on 1 fights, have always been more fulfilling to me as a pvper. I dont like being destroyed in a matter of seconds, and I find it unsatisfying when I do the same to my opponents.

Duels between top tier dueling spec characters have a tendency to never end. They last forever. You consider never ending combat to be fun? Its just pointless. Its burst damage and reaction speed/timing that make games fun. These factors become more emphasized when you can die in a split second. If damage is low, it allows player with slower reaction speed and lower skill to stay alive and be competitive.

Feidam

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

High TTK = Boring. Who wants to be in a fight where nobody dies that lasts for minutes on end.

Low TTK is exciting, because at any moment you could be bursted down and instantly killed if you dont react fast enough by blocking, rolling, cc breaking, or recasting a shield.

Right now the TTK is just more diverse. You die faster in light, and slower in heavy. We dont know what the best armor is yet, but light armor finally has at least some kind of disadvantage, even though its mostly nullified by shield stacking.

I disagree, vehemently. In a longer battle, tactics and personal skill come into play to a far greater degree. In a quick battle, the deciding factor is almost always who attacks first (sneak damage bonus) or who has the better gear, level, etc.

Long fights, especially 1 on 1 fights, have always been more fulfilling to me as a pvper. I dont like being destroyed in a matter of seconds, and I find it unsatisfying when I do the same to my opponents.

Duels between top tier dueling spec characters have a tendency to never end. They last forever. You consider never ending combat to be fun? Its just pointless. Its burst damage and reaction speed/timing that make games fun. These factors become more emphasized when you can die in a split second. If damage is low, it allows player with slower reaction speed and lower skill to stay alive and be competitive.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Jyiiga

I fall somewhere in the middle. I want some twitch and reaction time, but I don't want a single mistake to result in me being instantly gibbed. This is not some FPS title where you respawn 20 seconds away from the person that just killed you.

Recremen

Derra wrote: »

I agree with ultimate generation, weapon enchants/setbonuses and charges.

Not crits however. Shields are are barrier of some kind of energy. You can´t critically hit that (atleast when you think as a crit of a hit on a lucky punch on vital parts/organs). Also with crits on shields they´d be obsolete as without dmg mitigation active on shields you´d be able to crit on shields for 1.5 or more of their value.

You say that like someone who's never shattered an errant numina before, or pulled slats off of a spell lattice.

Recremen

DDuke wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

I still fail to see your point.... "Play the way you want" Sure. Just not effective at all because of the way PvP works and the way you have a limited abilities. Shield stacking has been in since launch, almost a year ago, there is nothing wrong with it, there is nothing wrong with the people that use it..... It's like using a meatbag catapult against the emperors, it's just something everyone does without thinking cause it helps them live.

I highlighted what you just said.

This is exactly what is wrong with it.

It's something everyone does, requires zero thought (skill) & helps them live.

What is this effervescent "skill" you refer to? How do you define it? Does denying yourself an advantage lead to hidden mysticism? Do you win more fights by not healing, or not attacking? I mean let's be honest, people mindlessly attack each other in PvP all the time, but maybe, if they don't ever deal damage to each other, they will achieve secret wisdom.

You're railing against a core mechanic of the game. It's fine and beneficial to the community to talk about your experiences on PTS, the imbalances you perceive based on your extremely limited sample, and even sometimes to make suggestions for how to fix things, but bashing people for using the game mechanics to win is the height of pretentious uselessness.

Derra

Recremen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I agree with ultimate generation, weapon enchants/setbonuses and charges.

Not crits however. Shields are are barrier of some kind of energy. You can´t critically hit that (atleast when you think as a crit of a hit on a lucky punch on vital parts/organs). Also with crits on shields they´d be obsolete as without dmg mitigation active on shields you´d be able to crit on shields for 1.5 or more of their value.

You say that like someone who's never shattered an errant numina before, or pulled slats off of a spell lattice.

If you let me critically hit on casting the shield i´m fine

DDuke

Recremen wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

I still fail to see your point.... "Play the way you want" Sure. Just not effective at all because of the way PvP works and the way you have a limited abilities. Shield stacking has been in since launch, almost a year ago, there is nothing wrong with it, there is nothing wrong with the people that use it..... It's like using a meatbag catapult against the emperors, it's just something everyone does without thinking cause it helps them live.

I highlighted what you just said.

This is exactly what is wrong with it.

It's something everyone does, requires zero thought (skill) & helps them live.

What is this effervescent "skill" you refer to? How do you define it? Does denying yourself an advantage lead to hidden mysticism? Do you win more fights by not healing, or not attacking? I mean let's be honest, people mindlessly attack each other in PvP all the time, but maybe, if they don't ever deal damage to each other, they will achieve secret wisdom.

You're railing against a core mechanic of the game. It's fine and beneficial to the community to talk about your experiences on PTS, the imbalances you perceive based on your extremely limited sample, and even sometimes to make suggestions for how to fix things, but bashing people for using the game mechanics to win is the height of pretentious uselessness.

How I define skill in gaming: decision making, reaction speed, precision (mostly in FPS games), situational awareness, timing & coordination (when playing with others).

Everything else falls under "knowledge" (game mechanics, different tricks etc).

You may have knowledge & know how to play most efficiently, but that does not make person a skilled player, especially when said person's playstyle lacks everything I listed above.

E.g. someone spamming dmg shields & failing to avoid any CC his opponent throws at him (back to knowledge: it's cheaper to roll dodge than CC break), or a magicka build just holding right mouse button & rolling face on keyboard.

Both may be effective & kill people, but I wouldn't consider that skill.