This new damage stack/spam meta will be the death of PvP

sabresandiego_ESO

If you gear or build for armor/spell or wear some heavy armor you'll see that TTK is actually lower than on live. Its only significantly higher for 7/7 light armor wearers who invest nothing into defense and max magicka. These builds get one shot if they forget to recast their damage shields repeatedly.

Feidam

True, but it is even more exaggerated now. Now it is not just good stealth players, but every stealth player. Something must be done. Damage itself in pvp is out of control. This game is starting to feel more like WOW or an FPS with it's insanely low time to kill.

Feidam

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

If you gear or build for armor/spell or wear some heavy armor you'll see that TTK is actually lower than on live. Its only significantly higher for 7/7 light armor wearers who invest nothing into defense and max magicka. These builds get one shot if they forget to recast their damage shields repeatedly.

And if we don't balance this the pvp meta will switch to everyone is some form of heavy armor meta which will come with it's own set of problems. The everyone in light armor meta was bogus. Let us not repeat the same mistake and just switch the meta to a differant armor. Let's find a balance.

sabresandiego_ESO

High TTK = Boring. Who wants to be in a fight where nobody dies that lasts for minutes on end.

Low TTK is exciting, because at any moment you could be bursted down and instantly killed if you dont react fast enough by blocking, rolling, cc breaking, or recasting a shield.

Right now the TTK is just more diverse. You die faster in light, and slower in heavy. We dont know what the best armor is yet, but light armor finally has at least some kind of disadvantage, even though its mostly nullified by shield stacking.

Cody

Recremen wrote: »

Hon the pts has been out for a week, take a chill pill while we figure out how this is going to work.

I'm not sure if I'm just not grasping the extent of the shield stacking meta or if you're blowing it out of proportion, but having one or two shield on your bar of ten abilities hardly seems that problematic to me. Like, are heals also too powerful? Are damage abilities just too much of an easy win button? Is the aggressive scaling of armor and weapons (which will only get worse over time) ruining your favorite boxing-in-boxers build?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that damage shields are as intrinsic to the game mechanics as any of the other above features, and worrying about needing them sounds just as silly to me.

Also you don't need to do the martyr complex thing, you're above that.

I made this post because I do not want PvP to die out, and if 1.6 releases like this, PvP WILL die out.

HOWEVER, the main reason I worry, is due to past history. ZOS has displayed on more than one occasion poor judgment, (I also saw a rather disturbing quote, where a staff member said something like "people like to stack damage shields, so we are not changing much with them" or something like that) I worry because ZOS has not had a CLUE as to what they have been doing the past 9 months with their game. Dang right im going to worry about it! I worry because I care!

My "martyr complex" is beside the point, plz stick to the topic. If me voicing my concern means I need to act like an idiot on occasion, I am more than willing to do so.

Cody

Panda244 wrote: »

There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build. Damage stacking is a thing, it doesn't effect large scale PvP battles at all so I have no problem with it, and in small scale battles I just run the shield stacker out of stamina then stun him, and he melts. If they try to fix this, which isn't broken, Sorcs will lose out on all their fun because they'll be weaker than a dung beetle. Sorcs need shield stacking to survive.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Damage does not need to go down. Try fighting someone in heavy armor, damage is not high. It just seems high because everyone wants to run around in light armor and be as tanky as before 1.6. Light armor finally has drawbacks (although these drawbacks are mostly circumvented by shield stacking)

You're not as tanky as before though, if your damage shield drops you get smacked in the face with higher damage. Not to mention the insane rate of stamina drain when blocking, shield stacking is a thing, and it forces the person to stop all offense to do it, so I have no issues with it. The only time I ever "Stack" shields with any of my characters is when I'm on my DK, surrounded by 5 or more people, at low health, I hit Draw Essence, swap bars, drop cinder storm, igneous shield, harness magicka, GDB, swap bars, Draw Essence, talons, rince repeat.

The shields are to give me a breather, they don't make me god. Every class has access to something that gives them a breather, Sorcs have blink, NBs have cloak, when it works, Temps have Blazing Shield, DKs get Igneous Shield.

The only offense based shield is Blazing... The rest are fine. If they nerf shield stacking they have to nerf overall damage, because without shields you'll run into a large group stacked on a flag and incinerate faster than you already do WITH shields.

Then lower overall damage; id much rather deal with that than a game based on damage shield spam.

Cuddler

Just to give some perspective to this debate, these are example damage numbers from the PTS:

- 25k Lethal Arrow from stealth.
- 25k Wrecking Blow from Stealth.
- 17k Wrecking Blow, out of stealth.
- 20k on Evil Hunter from stealth. That is the morph that has a 15% proc rate and returns Stamina. When it procs on stealth attacks, both the attack and Evil Hunter crit, from my experience so far.
- 34k Ambush from stealth.
- 29k Ambush, not sure from stealth or not.
- 45k Soul Shred.
- 12k fire staff Heavy Attack.

I will be all for reducing shield strength or changing how they stack, if burst damage is toned down as well, and each class is given a good self-heal ability.

sabresandiego_ESO

Low damage creates boring fights where nobody dies, and de-emphasizes reaction speed and quick thinking.

High damage creates intense fights, where you can be killed at a moments notice, and rewards players who have quick reactions and high skill.

The game is heading in the right direction. Damage shields need to be toned down a bit, but other than that damage output is fine, perhaps even too low against heavy armor users.

Cody

Cuddler wrote: »

Just to give some perspective to this debate, these are example damage numbers from the PTS:

- 25k Lethal Arrow from stealth.
- 25k Wrecking Blow from Stealth.
- 17k Wrecking Blow, out of stealth.
- 20k on Evil Hunter from stealth. That is the morph that has a 15% proc rate and returns Stamina. When it procs on stealth attacks, both the attack and Evil Hunter crit, from my experience so far.
- 34k Ambush from stealth.
- 29k Ambush, not sure from stealth or not.
- 45k Soul Shred.
- 12k fire staff Heavy Attack.

I will be all for reducing shield strength or changing how they stack, if burst damage is toned down as well, and each class is given a good self-heal ability.

I am all for reducing damage and giving out more self heals. I just don't want PvP to turn into a game of who can spam the most damage shields.

Xsorus

Feidam wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

If you gear or build for armor/spell or wear some heavy armor you'll see that TTK is actually lower than on live. Its only significantly higher for 7/7 light armor wearers who invest nothing into defense and max magicka. These builds get one shot if they forget to recast their damage shields repeatedly.

And if we don't balance this the pvp meta will switch to everyone is some form of heavy armor meta which will come with it's own set of problems. The everyone in light armor meta was bogus. Let us not repeat the same mistake and just switch the meta to a differant armor. Let's find a balance.

No one is going to switch to Heavy Armor meta..because you run out of resources so quickly with Heavy Armor its just not worth it on PTS.

Esp when you can get the same survive-ability just by stacking shields while having more damage.

Being able to take a hit is useless if you can't do anything back to the target because your resource is drained..and once its drained you're dead.

Berinima

I personally think the problem is not that shield stacking is a "new" meta, it has been around before. Neither is it necessarily overpowered because especially light armor users need the survivability due to the dramatic armor nerfs.

However, due to these nerfs and a much smaller health pool they seem to have become mandatory. Before it felt more like a choice, especially because we had soft caps. Then again, if shields scale with magicka you don't have to chose between damage or survivability, you are getting both. Also they are very few counters. That makes a shield stacking magicka build superior to many others what leads to this new (maybe new is not exactly the right word but I hope you know for what I am aiming here) meta.

And because it's superior and because it's mandatory people feel "forced" to adapt to this meta. Especially with a system that strongly limits your choices (2x5 skills on your bar) people perceive that as not ideal. Also because the patch forces a lot of things on the players in the state as it is right now.

The main problem is, if you go from here and try to "fix" it by for example making them vulnerable to heal debuffs, chances are you are actually making things worse.

Very complicated.

Recremen

decado0024_ESO wrote: »

How can something be intrinsic to gameplay or be the "meta" when there is an entire class that doesnt have them?

Well, 1/4 classes not having something important for survivability makes me wonder more why they don't have it than why other people do. They still have access to resto staff, barrier, brawler, etc., however, so it's not like they're out of options. Further, they have other abilities that are supposed to be a unique take on survivability, like a hard invisibility (not that I think this is an acceptable alternative, but you know).

Wahee

Panda244 wrote: »

There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build.

The problem with damage shields is that there is no counter except to use them yourself, exactly as you described. Healing is a great example. Heals can be debuffed, and the debuff can be purged. An effective counter with its own counter. Blocking is countered by rapid attacks to drain stam. High armor/spell resistance is countered by penetration and debuffs. Damage shields are countered by.....nothing?

The only way to outlast/survive against a damage shield it to also use a damage shield to equalize your mitigation with your opponent. No other form of mitigation comes close to competing with shields because there is no counter to shields.

Snit

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

High damage creates intense fights, where you can be killed at a moments notice, and rewards players who have quick reactions and high skill

High Damage also means that the dude who was stealthed wins 9/10 times, while the other guy never had a chance to push a meaningful button

Panda244

Wahee wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build.

The problem with damage shields is that there is no counter except to use them yourself, exactly as you described. Healing is a great example. Heals can be debuffed, and the debuff can be purged. An effective counter with its own counter. Blocking is countered by rapid attacks to drain stam. High armor/spell resistance is countered by penetration and debuffs. Damage shields are countered by.....nothing?

The only way to outlast/survive against a damage shield it to also use a damage shield to equalize your mitigation with your opponent. No other form of mitigation comes close to competing with shields because there is no counter to shields.

Then perhaps instead of nerfing shields they should introduce a new weapon enchant or a new trait/new set or new something that allows you to reduce the effectiveness of a damage shield the same way you can debuff heals. Like the opposite of a hardened enchant on your sword or staff, it reduces the effectiveness of damage shields on the target by 30%? Cause 50% is a bit much and ruins the point of shields, 25% is a bit low... 30-35% would prolly be best.

And shields are really no different than some other specs people complain about.

"Oh I have to slot X ability to compete with Y ability."

That's what happens when you're limited to 5 skills per bar, it's also why I love PvP. Personally I've never ever had a problem with shields, if they want to fix them just make it like Igneous Shield, if you recast the ability you don't get the shield refreshed. Even if you have 1 point left on igneous shield you can't recast it to get the buff back, only Blazing Shield and harness magicka can you recast to reform the shield. This would help a bit, I also don't see why people complain about it being so OP when if theres 4-5 people on you and you're casting shields to tank their damage you're to busy to kill any of them.... It's an ineffective strategy in 1vX, horrible strategy in zergs and only ever OP in 1v1 or 1v2, it's not really the fault of the shield stacker either, some of the burst damage as Cuddler pointed out is downright insane. Shield stacking lets you live through it. Fix burst damage and you don't need to worry about shield stackers as they'll tone it down.

technohic

Cuddler wrote: »

Just to give some perspective to this debate, these are example damage numbers from the PTS:

- 25k Lethal Arrow from stealth.
- 25k Wrecking Blow from Stealth.
- 17k Wrecking Blow, out of stealth.
- 20k on Evil Hunter from stealth. That is the morph that has a 15% proc rate and returns Stamina. When it procs on stealth attacks, both the attack and Evil Hunter crit, from my experience so far.
- 34k Ambush from stealth.
- 29k Ambush, not sure from stealth or not.
- 45k Soul Shred.
- 12k fire staff Heavy Attack.

I will be all for reducing shield strength or changing how they stack, if burst damage is toned down as well, and each class is given a good self-heal ability.

This is pretty much the base of the issue. All of this damage makes the shields required and this needs to change. Nothing should be an instakill even if you are not wearing armor and shields are way more valuable in armor still as they are not limited to 50% damage mitigation on a lot of them.

Damage needs toned WAYYY down and then shields should just absorb a percentage of incoming damage rather than all of it. I'm using the stuff myself but its just a bad design.

TheBull

I'm enjoying the pts, but I do agree 30k+ of shields is out of control...

Recremen

Cody wrote: »

I made this post because I do not want PvP to die out, and if 1.6 releases like this, PvP WILL die out.

HOWEVER, the main reason I worry, is due to past history. ZOS has displayed on more than one occasion poor judgment, (I also saw a rather disturbing quote, where a staff member said something like "people like to stack damage shields, so we are not changing much with them" or something like that) I worry because ZOS has not had a CLUE as to what they have been doing the past 9 months with their game. Dang right im going to worry about it! I worry because I care!

My "martyr complex" is beside the point, plz stick to the topic. If me voicing my concern means I need to act like an idiot on occasion, I am more than willing to do so.

I mean it's really good that you care, but you don't seem to be analyzing this situation rationally, you seem to be reacting strongly to hype that hasn't even been fully tested or explored yet. I also think it's a bit unfair to the developers to say that they don't have a clue what they're doing with their game.

I think you should keep testing, look at other builds, experiment with different PvP styles, and see what the options are with the existing system. Right now we need more testing, not hyperbole about PvP dying out and servers crashing and Dagoth Ur riding Alduin into the heart of Oblivion and then exploding.

TheBull

Recremen wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

I made this post because I do not want PvP to die out, and if 1.6 releases like this, PvP WILL die out.

HOWEVER, the main reason I worry, is due to past history. ZOS has displayed on more than one occasion poor judgment, (I also saw a rather disturbing quote, where a staff member said something like "people like to stack damage shields, so we are not changing much with them" or something like that) I worry because ZOS has not had a CLUE as to what they have been doing the past 9 months with their game. Dang right im going to worry about it! I worry because I care!

My "martyr complex" is beside the point, plz stick to the topic. If me voicing my concern means I need to act like an idiot on occasion, I am more than willing to do so.

I mean it's really good that you care, but you don't seem to be analyzing this situation rationally, you seem to be reacting strongly to hype that hasn't even been fully tested or explored yet. I also think it's a bit unfair to the developers to say that they don't have a clue what they're doing with their game.

I think you should keep testing, look at other builds, experiment with different PvP styles, and see what the options are with the existing system. Right now we need more testing, not hyperbole about PvP dying out and servers crashing and Dagoth Ur riding Alduin into the heart of Oblivion and then exploding.

There are no counters to shields. Infact shields hard counter crit, skills that proc on the number of hits, and they do not let you build ultimate.

DDuke

Nerfing damage shields and then reducing damage done would only bring us back to square one.

The root of the problem is that defensive abilities are not only stronger, but also more cost effective than offensive ones.

What should be done is a significant increase to players' health in Cyrodiil to tone up TTK, followed by a big cost increase to damage shields (I'd go with 3-4x more magicka cost) and a reduction of effectiveness when stacked.


They should be "emergency buttons", not something you spam that converts your never ending magicka bar into your "health", making you basicly invincible.

sabresandiego_ESO

Snit wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

High damage creates intense fights, where you can be killed at a moments notice, and rewards players who have quick reactions and high skill

High Damage also means that the dude who was stealthed wins 9/10 times, while the other guy never had a chance to push a meaningful button

Thats more an issue of stealth, not low TTK. Stealth shouldnt be complete invisibility in an open field, but thats not changing any time soon unfortunately.

Xsorus

Stealth attacks are countered by radiant Magelight.

Wahee

DDuke wrote: »

Nerfing damage shields and then reducing damage done would only bring us back to square one.

The root of the problem is that defensive abilities are not only stronger, but also more cost effective than offensive ones.

What should be done is a significant increase to players' health in Cyrodiil to tone down TTK, followed by a big cost increase to damage shields (I'd go with 3-4x more magicka cost) and a reduction of effectiveness when stacked.


They should be "emergency buttons", not something you spam that converts your never ending magicka bar into your "health", making you basicly invincible.

This.

spoqster

For God's sake don't remove shield stacking. It's part of what makes the game so much fun.

Stacking shields means you have more defensive abilities slotted, you spend more mana on defensive abilities and thus have less offensive power. It's just a balancing issue, so please don't het out the axe again.

DDuke

spoqster wrote: »

For God's sake don't remove shield stacking. It's part of what makes the game so much fun.

Stacking shields means you have more defensive abilities slotted, you spend more mana on defensive abilities and thus have less offensive power. It's just a balancing issue, so please don't het out the axe again.

Not true. Let me tell you why: they scale off the same resource.

All you need in your bar (or second weapon slot) is one or two damaging skills, and you're dealing the exact same damage your opponent is, while maintaining your immunity shields (as long as you have magicka) that each take 2-3 offensive skills to break.

In other words, your opponent is dead unless he was a shield/heal spammer as well.

Feidam

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Stealth attacks are countered by radiant Magelight.

Somewhat yes, but not for bow users unless you walk across them. The new skill that lets you throw areas of stealth detection helps too. There is no reason a stealth attack should insta gib anyone though. Insta dieing to 5 people is one thing. Insta dieing to one individual is entirely another.

I do think the problem is more than just shield stacking and damage.

Aren_Liore

We can only hope ZOS pays attention and makes some changes to fix this issue, and I think you all have given great suggestions. I can't say much on the matter, as I don't know anything about PvP, but I don't like that this its forcing me to adopt a certain build to have a chance in combat.

DDuke

Feidam wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Stealth attacks are countered by radiant Magelight.

Somewhat yes, but not for bow users unless you walk across them. The new skill that lets you throw areas of stealth detection helps too. There is no reason a stealth attack should insta gib anyone though. Insta dieing to 5 people is one thing. Insta dieing to one individual is entirely another.

I do think the problem is more than just shield stacking and damage.

It is. I don't agree with insta gibbing people either. It takes very little skill from my part (I don't even have to aim), and probably isn't very enjoyable for my opponent(s).

Here's the usual TTK in PvP (1.5):
<3k health = 0,1 seconds
>3k health = 15 mins - never


Below 3k health means I can one shot the person, above 3k health means it's going to be another never ending shield/heal spam, and there's nothing I can do about it.

ToRelax

DDuke wrote: »

Nerfing damage shields and then reducing damage done would only bring us back to square one.

The root of the problem is that defensive abilities are not only stronger, but also more cost effective than offensive ones.

What should be done is a significant increase to players' health in Cyrodiil to tone up TTK, followed by a big cost increase to damage shields (I'd go with 3-4x more magicka cost) and a reduction of effectiveness when stacked.


They should be "emergency buttons", not something you spam that converts your never ending magicka bar into your "health", making you basicly invincible.

Exactly. So pretty much the opposite of what was done in 1.6 so far...

Recremen

TheBull wrote: »

There are no counters to shields. Infact shields hard counter crit, skills that proc on the number of hits, and they do not let you build ultimate.

Those are all very good points! Are you sure you can't build ultimate while shields are active, though? I could have sworn mine was building fine on PTS. If you can't crit or proc skills based on hits, then yes, that absolutely needs to be changed, otherwise the ubiquitous shield mechanic will ruin a lot of valid builds.

And that's the kind of rational discussion that needs to be had, so thank you. If we define an acceptable degree of variability that we want to see in PvP and PvE, then we can start helping to shape the game to make that work. For instance, we want all armor types to be valid, yes? And probably all weapon types? But perhaps not every combination of weapon and armor, which, though it would be ideal, doesn't lend itself well towards how the game works on a fundamental level. We probably want stealth builds that can gank well, but group-combat builds that can make effective use of single-target and AoE abilities, right? We need, as a community, to communicate what degree of variety is essential, and give feedback about why certain mechanics prevent that variety from being achievable.