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This new damage stack/spam meta will be the death of PvP
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Feidam✭✭✭Personally, all weapon types and armor types should be viable imo. However, you should not have high offense with high defense. There needs to be a trade off. Without, a trade off/ balancing mechanism people will stack the things that gives them everything.
The there should be some sort of sliding scale if you will of power. The more defensive you become the less offensive you become and vice versa. This way you can choose a balanced approach or a more glass canon approach and your choices will be meaningful. Right now you can accomplish both offense and defense. And both can go to absurd levels.
It would really help if we had a dev give us an actual response as what they want to happen so we can formulate ideas that are not all over the place.
I've played many a pvp game and the thing that kills pvp the fastest is poor balance. Granted true balance is a pipe dream, but it should be strived for.Edited by Feidam on 1 February 2015 01:356 -
kevlarto_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't think stacking of anything is good and the TTK is a bit to fast, if I like fast TTK I would be playing a shooter LOL.
I guess will have to see what makes it to live, and how it all works out as it goes.0 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build.
The problem with damage shields is that there is no counter except to use them yourself, exactly as you described. Healing is a great example. Heals can be debuffed, and the debuff can be purged. An effective counter with its own counter. Blocking is countered by rapid attacks to drain stam. High armor/spell resistance is countered by penetration and debuffs. Damage shields are countered by.....nothing?
The only way to outlast/survive against a damage shield it to also use a damage shield to equalize your mitigation with your opponent. No other form of mitigation comes close to competing with shields because there is no counter to shields.
Damage shields are countered by damage. They have no mitigation.
The problem right now is that the resource cost for damage (for some abilities anyway) is more than for shields.
I'm pointing out that a lot of what your saying is just not true.
You say there is no counter.
You say that you must use a shield yourself.
edited to add clarity for the people who need it.
Edited by Domander on 1 February 2015 02:496 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build.
The problem with damage shields is that there is no counter except to use them yourself, exactly as you described. Healing is a great example. Heals can be debuffed, and the debuff can be purged. An effective counter with its own counter. Blocking is countered by rapid attacks to drain stam. High armor/spell resistance is countered by penetration and debuffs. Damage shields are countered by.....nothing?
The only way to outlast/survive against a damage shield it to also use a damage shield to equalize your mitigation with your opponent. No other form of mitigation comes close to competing with shields because there is no counter to shields.
Damage shields are countered by damage.
You do know it takes atleast 2 offensive skills, or an ultimate to get rid of one shield? And that those multiple offensive skills cost more magicka/stamina than that one shield?10 -
Wahee✭✭✭There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build.
The problem with damage shields is that there is no counter except to use them yourself, exactly as you described. Healing is a great example. Heals can be debuffed, and the debuff can be purged. An effective counter with its own counter. Blocking is countered by rapid attacks to drain stam. High armor/spell resistance is countered by penetration and debuffs. Damage shields are countered by.....nothing?
The only way to outlast/survive against a damage shield it to also use a damage shield to equalize your mitigation with your opponent. No other form of mitigation comes close to competing with shields because there is no counter to shields.
Damage shields are countered by damage.
...I just really don't even.
Mostly Harmless: PvP leader and officer
mostly-harmless-guild.com5 -
JLB✭✭✭✭This is amazing. You people want PvP be only a dps fest with 0 variety of builds except dps & dps?
Crying for so long about blocking and now you start the same old song about shields?
You dont even realize, it's posts like this what is killing your beloved PvP. YOU are the ones to blame by crying about every defensive skill and mechanic in game.8 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build.
The problem with damage shields is that there is no counter except to use them yourself, exactly as you described. Healing is a great example. Heals can be debuffed, and the debuff can be purged. An effective counter with its own counter. Blocking is countered by rapid attacks to drain stam. High armor/spell resistance is countered by penetration and debuffs. Damage shields are countered by.....nothing?
The only way to outlast/survive against a damage shield it to also use a damage shield to equalize your mitigation with your opponent. No other form of mitigation comes close to competing with shields because there is no counter to shields.
Damage shields are countered by damage.
You do know it takes atleast 2 offensive skills, or an ultimate to get rid of one shield? And that those multiple offensive skills cost more magicka/stamina than that one shield?
Yes, which is the problem.
This doesn't apply to all offensive skills thoughEdited by Domander on 1 February 2015 02:351 -
TipsyDrow✭✭✭✭Easy peasy fix really. Raise all health pools by 20%, allow only one damage shield to be active at any given time, and give each class/weapon skill line one damage ability that does mediocre damage BUT bypasses ALL shields. The increased health pools should be enough so you're not one shotted and have a chance to react, only one shield up mean no one is going to be immortal especially when you can nip away at damage with one skill that bypasses shields. Or something along these lines.Oooh, what do we have here? Another scrumptious young plaything straight out of life and into my club? Mmm... you smell new, little boy, like fabric softener dew on freshly mowed Astroturf. Oh, I'm not frightening you, am I, duckling?
Love, Mistress Pigtails2 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build.
The problem with damage shields is that there is no counter except to use them yourself, exactly as you described. Healing is a great example. Heals can be debuffed, and the debuff can be purged. An effective counter with its own counter. Blocking is countered by rapid attacks to drain stam. High armor/spell resistance is countered by penetration and debuffs. Damage shields are countered by.....nothing?
The only way to outlast/survive against a damage shield it to also use a damage shield to equalize your mitigation with your opponent. No other form of mitigation comes close to competing with shields because there is no counter to shields.
Damage shields are countered by damage.
...I just really don't even.
You say damage shields have no counter, they are countered by damage and CC. The problem right now is that the resource cost for a lot of damage abilities is more than for shields.
I'm also pretty sure you don't have to use a damage shield to counter a damage shield.
I'm pointing out that a lot of what you're saying is just not true.
You say there is no counter.
You say that you must use a shield yourself.
Edited by Domander on 1 February 2015 02:411 -
Berinima✭✭✭If you don't want to use a damage shield then don't. You could either run a tank build and deal zero damage but then you will be slowly burned down by the build that uses a shield AND hits like a truck. Or you could run a DPS build and die in a split second while dealing zero damage to the build with the damage shield. Play as you want to play.6
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Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think the solution is to make break free immunity last a couple seconds less, or increase the cost, and move the cc immunity part of immovable to be heavy armor only. (leave the armor buff for everyone.)
Then if you put all your stats into magicka for shields and damage, you're sacrificing stamina (and regen) to do it.
You can't shield yourself if you're on your back and out of stam.
Edited by Domander on 1 February 2015 03:200 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Stealth attacks are countered by radiant Magelight.
Somewhat yes, but not for bow users unless you walk across them. The new skill that lets you throw areas of stealth detection helps too. There is no reason a stealth attack should insta gib anyone though. Insta dieing to 5 people is one thing. Insta dieing to one individual is entirely another.
I do think the problem is more than just shield stacking and damage.
Radiant Mage Light reduces the damage you take from stealth attacks by 54%, and does it for all your team mates that are around you, it also reveals stealthers, and my personal favorite, makes you immune to sneak attacks stun..So it is the counter...https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
Jyiiga✭✭✭I was on the PTS today for several hours. This is about all I see. You either do it or you get annihilated in just a few moves. In general I don't enjoy quick TTK battles in a game that takes me 5-15 minutes to get back to the fight. So I have to copy cat and do as the herd does.
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Panda244✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think the solution is to make break free immunity last a couple seconds less, or increase the cost, and move the cc immunity part of immovable to be heavy armor only. (leave the armor buff for everyone.)
Then if you put all your stats into magicka for shields and damage, you're sacrificing stamina (and regen) to do it.
You can't shield yourself if you're on your back and out of stam.
There isn't a solution, someone that stacks damage shields and blocks is killed just as easily in a real fight as someone that doesn't stack damage shields.
Theres three types of people in PvP, in terms of shield stackers, the ones that slot shields instead of heals, the ones that slot heals instead of shields, and the snipers that die instantly and complain 24/7.
You don't -have- to stack shields to survive, you just have to design a better build that can defend against burst damage. For example, in a duel with the typical FOTM NB build of Ambush, Surprise Attack, Shades, Fear, and Incap Strike. I survived the burst three times by simply blocking with my resto, casting GDB when I got low. When he ran out of resources, I went on the offensive and killed him. Period. He stacked healing ward and harness magicka, I still killed him. If you can't beat a shield stacker 1v1, you don't come to complain, you go out and figure out how to buff your damage so you can melt the shield. Shields aren't effective in serious PvP... They just melt... People use them for their passive buffs, like Harness Magicka giving magicka back, and Igneous Shield giving 30% buff to heals, and Healing Ward for the healing. I don't see why people complain about shields.... I personally have never seen someone survive long just spamming shields.... it doesn't work. It never has. Shield stacking is not a valid tactic to keep you alive forever.Aldmeri Dominion For Life!
Crassus Licinius II - DK - V14 - Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade NA (The Dragonknight that refuses to go Vampire.)
N'tel Arlena - NB - V14 - Retired Sap Tank of Haderus NA, Harasser of Many (Also, not a vampire. Goes by nickname Nutella.)
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#FreeGooey
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#FreeAoE
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#FreeMBF
Officially Resigned From Cyrodiil As Of 4/15/15 10:24 PM EST.7 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Stealth attacks are countered by radiant Magelight.
Somewhat yes, but not for bow users unless you walk across them. The new skill that lets you throw areas of stealth detection helps too. There is no reason a stealth attack should insta gib anyone though. Insta dieing to 5 people is one thing. Insta dieing to one individual is entirely another.
I do think the problem is more than just shield stacking and damage.
Radiant Mage Light reduces the damage you take from stealth attacks by 54%, and does it for all your team mates that are around you, it also reveals stealthers, and my personal favorite, makes you immune to sneak attacks stun..So it is the counter...
Sneak attacks should be powerful, and yes there's a counter to it, but insta gib should not be a thing.
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Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you don't want to use a damage shield then don't. You could either run a tank build and deal zero damage but then you will be slowly burned down by the build that uses a shield AND hits like a truck. Or you could run a DPS build and die in a split second while dealing zero damage to the build with the damage shield. Play as you want to play.
Pretty much this is how it is.
Heavy DPS stamina builds are balanced because they don't have access to multiple shields that allow them to negate all the damage while spitting out tons of damage.
Heavy DPS magicka builds aren't balanced..and are able to basically have similar if not great tanking capability comparable to Heavy Tanks who basically die right now because they have zero resources to do anything.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos2 -
Wahee✭✭✭There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build.
The problem with damage shields is that there is no counter except to use them yourself, exactly as you described. Healing is a great example. Heals can be debuffed, and the debuff can be purged. An effective counter with its own counter. Blocking is countered by rapid attacks to drain stam. High armor/spell resistance is countered by penetration and debuffs. Damage shields are countered by.....nothing?
The only way to outlast/survive against a damage shield it to also use a damage shield to equalize your mitigation with your opponent. No other form of mitigation comes close to competing with shields because there is no counter to shields.
Damage shields are countered by damage.
...I just really don't even.
You say damage shields have no counter, they are countered by damage and CC. The problem right now is that the resource cost for a lot of damage abilities is more than for shields.
I'm also pretty sure you don't have to use a damage shield to counter a damage shield.
I'm pointing out that a lot of what you're saying is just not true.
You say there is no counter.
You say that you must use a shield yourself.
I don't think you understand what the word counter means. Heal dubuff is a counter to heals. Damage alone can kill a healing player in spite of the heals, but it is not a counter to healing.
Shields need a counter, a skill or debuff that negates or lessens their effectiveness. Just like every other form of mitigation.
Mostly Harmless: PvP leader and officer
mostly-harmless-guild.com3 -
Wahee✭✭✭I personally have never seen someone survive long just spamming shields.... it doesn't work. It never has. Shield stacking is not a valid tactic to keep you alive forever.
From PTS...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjv8L40w7a8
Mostly Harmless: PvP leader and officer
mostly-harmless-guild.com0 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I made this post because I do not want PvP to die out, and if 1.6 releases like this, PvP WILL die out.
HOWEVER, the main reason I worry, is due to past history. ZOS has displayed on more than one occasion poor judgment, (I also saw a rather disturbing quote, where a staff member said something like "people like to stack damage shields, so we are not changing much with them" or something like that) I worry because ZOS has not had a CLUE as to what they have been doing the past 9 months with their game. Dang right im going to worry about it! I worry because I care!
My "martyr complex" is beside the point, plz stick to the topic. If me voicing my concern means I need to act like an idiot on occasion, I am more than willing to do so.
I mean it's really good that you care, but you don't seem to be analyzing this situation rationally, you seem to be reacting strongly to hype that hasn't even been fully tested or explored yet. I also think it's a bit unfair to the developers to say that they don't have a clue what they're doing with their game.
I think you should keep testing, look at other builds, experiment with different PvP styles, and see what the options are with the existing system. Right now we need more testing, not hyperbole about PvP dying out and servers crashing and Dagoth Ur riding Alduin into the heart of Oblivion and then exploding.
OK. Why don't you try to find a counter to someone who stacks a crap ton of damage shields?
Tell me how well you do, I will be interested to hear the results, as I myself have yet to find a way besides attacking and hoping they don't use anymore.
Edited by Cody on 1 February 2015 04:452 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭For God's sake don't remove shield stacking. It's part of what makes the game so much fun.
Stacking shields means you have more defensive abilities slotted, you spend more mana on defensive abilities and thus have less offensive power. It's just a balancing issue, so please don't het out the axe again.
Less offensive power?
OK. You do realize that someone stacking all those damage shields STILL has access to all of their offensive capabilities right? They have access to much of their offensive capabilities, AND have the defense almost equivalent of a tank.
A player SHOULD NOT have access to both high offense and high defense. They should have to choose between the two. A player having both results in boring and frustrating gameplay. don't believe me? go play on live right now and you will see.
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Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Aren_Liore wrote: »We can only hope ZOS pays attention and makes some changes to fix this issue, and I think you all have given great suggestions. I can't say much on the matter, as I don't know anything about PvP, but I don't like that this its forcing me to adopt a certain build to have a chance in combat.
and this is the 2nd reason why this "new meta" is so ridiculous. It is forcing people to adopt a certain play style just to have a fighting chance. That should not be the case.
Edited by Cody on 1 February 2015 04:342 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I personally have never seen someone survive long just spamming shields.... it doesn't work. It never has. Shield stacking is not a valid tactic to keep you alive forever.
From PTS...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjv8L40w7a8
Seen that video before but it doesn't really do well to prove anything. Basically see 2 guys just keep doing the same thing. Would like to see some heavy melee hitters in there and see how it goes.3 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build.
The problem with damage shields is that there is no counter except to use them yourself, exactly as you described. Healing is a great example. Heals can be debuffed, and the debuff can be purged. An effective counter with its own counter. Blocking is countered by rapid attacks to drain stam. High armor/spell resistance is countered by penetration and debuffs. Damage shields are countered by.....nothing?
The only way to outlast/survive against a damage shield it to also use a damage shield to equalize your mitigation with your opponent. No other form of mitigation comes close to competing with shields because there is no counter to shields.
Damage shields are countered by damage.
c'mon man:/
Edited by Cody on 1 February 2015 04:380 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is amazing. You people want PvP be only a dps fest with 0 variety of builds except dps & dps?
Crying for so long about blocking and now you start the same old song about shields?
You dont even realize, it's posts like this what is killing your beloved PvP. YOU are the ones to blame by crying about every defensive skill and mechanic in game.
I don't want only DPS v DPS, what I actually want is balance.
Someone having access to both high offense AND high defense at the same time is not balance. People being forced into one particular play style just to have a shot at PvP is not balance.
My problem is not with damage shields themselves, my problem is the ridiculous rate at which they can currently be stacked/spammed.Edited by Cody on 1 February 2015 04:413 -
Panda244✭✭✭✭✭
✭For God's sake don't remove shield stacking. It's part of what makes the game so much fun.
Stacking shields means you have more defensive abilities slotted, you spend more mana on defensive abilities and thus have less offensive power. It's just a balancing issue, so please don't het out the axe again.
Less offensive power?
OK. You do realize that someone stacking all those damage shields STILL has access to all of their offensive capabilities right? They have access to much of their offensive capabilities, AND have the defense almost equivalent of a tank.
A player SHOULD NOT have access to both high offense and high defense. They should have to choose between the two. A player having both results in boring and frustrating gameplay. don't believe me? go play on live right now and you will see.
Except at the rate a damage shield diminishes in large battles means they have to keep spamming the damage shield buttons, meaning they aren't doing any damage. At all. Because they're shield stacking. In 1v1 or smaller scale it just means the other people need to up the damage or stun the guy.Aldmeri Dominion For Life!
Crassus Licinius II - DK - V14 - Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade NA (The Dragonknight that refuses to go Vampire.)
N'tel Arlena - NB - V14 - Retired Sap Tank of Haderus NA, Harasser of Many (Also, not a vampire. Goes by nickname Nutella.)
#FreeZazeer
#FreeGooey
#FreeAsgari
#FreeAoE
#FreeSubtomik
#FreeMBF
Officially Resigned From Cyrodiil As Of 4/15/15 10:24 PM EST.4 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭For God's sake don't remove shield stacking. It's part of what makes the game so much fun.
Stacking shields means you have more defensive abilities slotted, you spend more mana on defensive abilities and thus have less offensive power. It's just a balancing issue, so please don't het out the axe again.
Less offensive power?
OK. You do realize that someone stacking all those damage shields STILL has access to all of their offensive capabilities right? They have access to much of their offensive capabilities, AND have the defense almost equivalent of a tank.
A player SHOULD NOT have access to both high offense and high defense. They should have to choose between the two. A player having both results in boring and frustrating gameplay. don't believe me? go play on live right now and you will see.
Except at the rate a damage shield diminishes in large battles means they have to keep spamming the damage shield buttons, meaning they aren't doing any damage. At all. Because they're shield stacking. In 1v1 or smaller scale it just means the other people need to up the damage or stun the guy.
If only it were that simple.....
if only
Edited by Cody on 1 February 2015 04:462 -
trimsic_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Scaling damage shield off of health instead of magicka looks good in theory. Let's give it a try on the PTS, no?
Another solution would be to increase the magicka cost of damage shield spells, or to reduce the amount of damage a shield can absorb.
I'm not sure it's a metagame issue, but rather a balance issue that could be fixed by tuning the effects of these abilities. But I agree on one point: when someone has a strong offense potential, s/he should not have also a strong defense potential. That was the major design flaw pre 1.6 with the way the armor and their passive worked, and it would be a pity if this design flaw still exists post 1.6 with damage shields and max'd magicka builds.Edited by trimsic_ESO on 1 February 2015 05:070 -
Grim13✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS are clueless. I honestly hope they fail... it's the least their level of incompetence deserves.
I am sick to death of waiting for them to balance this game in any meaningful fashion... I refuse to participate in another year's worth of them flailing around like Mr. Magoo... hoping they can finally get their poop together.
If the current state of live, and especially the current state of 1.6, is anything to go by... they will never resolve the problems.Edited by Grim13 on 1 February 2015 05:153