Templar 1.6 Discussion

timidobserver

Dredlord wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

danovic wrote: »

Think Zos doesn't play enough Templars to realize the mending 30 percent increasing chance is for critical heals not offensive crits. They need to change it back!

I am pretty sure it was done because non-Templar healers have been complaining about being inferior for a long time.

Implying the inferiority had anything to do with mending

It was because breath of life is in every way superior to every resto staff heal in the game.

Mending is a large part of what makes Breath of Life superior.

not even close. no other heal in the game can spike for 900 base, non crit.

The 900 base only applies a significant heal to one person. The additional targets only get a meh heal. However, when Breath of Life crits everyone gets a large heal. Mending is major when doing competitive content like Sanctum Ophidia and Vet DSA.

incorrect, everyone does not get a large heal when it crits, each heal crits independently. many times I have crit healed someone on the main heal and got small non crit secondary heal resulting in my death.

I think you missed the point by trying to find something to prove wrong. That point being that the base heal of the primary target can be nice, but the secondary targets is not that great of a base heal. Which is why mending is part of what makes BOL powerful. You can count on all low health targets getting a crit heal when it is needed like the pull phase on the final boss of Vet Dsa. Now more RNG is involved.

try not to take it personally when you make a mistake and it gets pointed out, nobody cares who you are... only that what we are debating here is based on correct information.

Why would anyone care who I am given that I am just another Joe poster like anyone else here? What are you even talking about? If anything you are the one taking it personally by saying something like "Nobody cares who you are."

Also, there was no mistake on my part. It is likely just a misinterpretation on your part. Your premise is based around accusing me of saying thst BOL crits on all targets or none and I never said that. Everyone knows that each heal can crit.

technohic

Man, I want to give my stam build a test on a vampire from stealth with camouflaged hunter, snipe and follow up with the new destruction skill with full magicka.

Leon119

is the prism passive bugged atm ? activating Dawns Wrath abilities does not give any ultimate generation, nor instant nor the minor heroism passive

Khivas_Carrick

Then I'll say it's bugged good sir, unless it's secretly meant to have another function to it.

Beleron

Nibelaja wrote: »

I cant understand the change of mending. The templar is the only class with a healing tree, so i think ZOS wanted him to be the best healer ingame.
I hope that will not be such a big weakening as i fear a the moment...

and yet they could have given dk's cleansing flames, nbs more siphoning morphs that aoe heal, and sorc some aoe group bubbles. NOP. So now they have to balance templar out with its heals. ( i know about crit surge, and green dragon blood, but those are self heals only )

Khivas_Carrick

Beleron wrote: »

Nibelaja wrote: »

I cant understand the change of mending. The templar is the only class with a healing tree, so i think ZOS wanted him to be the best healer ingame.
I hope that will not be such a big weakening as i fear a the moment...

and yet they could have given dk's cleansing flames, nbs more siphoning morphs that aoe heal, and sorc some aoe group bubbles. NOP. So now they have to balance templar out with its heals. ( i know about crit surge, and green dragon blood, but those are self heals only )

I think this is because Resto Staffs got made to be more powerful, but frankly that still doesn't make much sense because a Templar can still just toss on a Resto Staff and go to town, so why not buff other class abilities to be ally-healing skills? It really boggles my mind o_O.

In fact, here's just a rough idea for each skill that could work in such a way:

Nightblades -

Siphoning Strikes and Refreshing Path can be made into actual legit heals, one being a HoT, a real HoT I should say based off of Party Member Damage, and Refreshing Path can be an actual burst heal.

Sorcerers -

This is what should have happened to Surge. One half becomes what Sorcs know and love but with a minor change; a boost to overall damage, both spell and weapon, whichever is higher, and a heal whenever you crit, period, with a max of 6 targets in AoE.

The morph is the fun part, where when you make it into a toggle ability and it increases your healing done by 10%, with 1% bonus added each time a heal crits, stacking up to 10 times, making a Sorc healer super viable and even with a Templar.

Dragonknight -

Earthen Heart abilities should be tailored not for Tanking and survival but solely for Support and Healing, with certain moves devoted to giving the entire party damage shields and HoTs. Such skills like Obsidian Shield already do this if I'm not mistaken, but an emphasis should be placed on them and their effectiveness and while a shield is up on an ally, the healing they receive should be stronger. Helping Hands passive should also restore Stamina and Magicka to allies over time after an Earthen Heart ability is activated.

Templar -

I'm not listing what should be, but what already is, especially on PTS. Thanks to the changes to how Stamina and Magicka work, as well as damage and tanking- Hell literally everything, Templar abilities such as Luminous Spear cannot be taken lightly. They are extremely vital now, and damn near always needed during boss fights to ensure DPS and Tanks maintain their resources for as long as possible, among other abilities Templars bring to the table. No longer are they bought in for their sheer healing prowess, but rather their raw support ability. That said, the other classes still pale in comparison, and that shouldn't be the case at all I believe.

ThatHappyCat

The Mending nerf hurts but I don't think it is a big deal. Even if it were removed completely Templars would still be the best healers. As it is, the new Mending isn't that bad (though strictly inferior to Expert Restoration, which is a bit weird), and the maximum strength of our heals is actually increased (Mending and Piercing Spear: yes, the +10% crit damage works for heals too).

Khivas_Carrick

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

The Mending nerf hurts but I don't think it is a big deal. Even if it were removed completely Templars would still be the best healers. As it is, the new Mending isn't that bad (though strictly inferior to Expert Restoration, which is a bit weird), and the maximum strength of our heals is actually increased (Mending and Piercing Spear: yes, the +10% crit damage works for heals too).

Then that's amazing and frankly might be why they changed things around in mending, especially since a good healer will have spear shards slotted XD

Arkadius

Another nerf to templar heal:

Weapon

• Restoration Staff
  • Fixed an issue where Restoration Expert and Restoration Master were increasing all healing done; this was not working as intended. Restoration Expert and Restoration Master now only increase healing done with Restoration Staff abilities. The ability tool-tips for these passives have been updated to reflect this fix.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Xiana wrote: »

Another nerf to templar heal:

Calling a bug-fix a 'nerf' is kind of /emo, don't you think?

timidobserver

Xiana wrote: »

Another nerf to templar heal:

Weapon

• Restoration Staff
  • Fixed an issue where Restoration Expert and Restoration Master were increasing all healing done; this was not working as intended. Restoration Expert and Restoration Master now only increase healing done with Restoration Staff abilities. The ability tool-tips for these passives have been updated to reflect this fix.

The way they wrote it is pretty dishonest. They try to present it as a bug fix rather than the nerf that it is. Hopefully they are done with the Templar Healer nerfs. Making Templar worse at healing is not going to make other classes better at it.

Arkadius

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Xiana wrote: »

Another nerf to templar heal:

Calling a bug-fix a 'nerf' is kind of /emo, don't you think?

So, they way it worked since beta is now considered a bug? O Really?

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Xiana wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Xiana wrote: »

Another nerf to templar heal:

Calling a bug-fix a 'nerf' is kind of /emo, don't you think?

So, they way it worked since beta is now considered a bug? O Really?

If you want to call ZOS liars please do, otherwise the answer to your question is "yes". Just because something has bee like it is 'forever' doesn't mean it needn't be changed if it was never intended to be like it.

Nibelaja

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Xiana wrote: »

Another nerf to templar heal:

Calling a bug-fix a 'nerf' is kind of /emo, don't you think?

That change is absolutly stupid. Why should i make a full healerbuild, if the only 2 healing trees arent compatible?

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

The Mending nerf hurts but I don't think it is a big deal. Even if it were removed completely Templars would still be the best healers. As it is, the new Mending isn't that bad (though strictly inferior to Expert Restoration, which is a bit weird), and the maximum strength of our heals is actually increased (Mending and Piercing Spear: yes, the +10% crit damage works for heals too).

I did some tests with my ckaracter now and mending seems bugged. At 100% life "breath of life" heals for 6500 Points normal and 9800 critical. At 5% its the same. I tried this several times and it diddnt get any better.
So normal results would be at 7150 points and critical correspondingly higher. But as described, i see no diffenrence. Any changes in the range from the tens, I have not taken into account because the changes would not be interesting and as said those should be in the 100 range. (+650 on normal)

Joy_Division

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Xiana wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Xiana wrote: »

Another nerf to templar heal:

Calling a bug-fix a 'nerf' is kind of /emo, don't you think?

So, they way it worked since beta is now considered a bug? O Really?

If you want to call ZOS liars please do, otherwise the answer to your question is "yes". Just because something has bee like it is 'forever' doesn't mean it needn't be changed if it was never intended to be like it.

You are incorrect. The passive on the tooltip since beta said "increases ALL healing done by 3%"

Feidam

Honestly, it's not a big deal. Templar still have some options non temps do not. Just because we Templar have a heal line does not mean we should be the best healers. It means we should have more options. So we should focus more on how to make under used Templar heals more useful. Healing ritual anyone?

timidobserver

Feidam wrote: »

Honestly, it's not a big deal. Templar still have some options non temps do not. Just because we Templar have a heal line does not mean we should be the best healers. It means we should have more options. So we should focus more on how to make under used Templar heals more useful. Healing ritual anyone?

Another person that thinks making something worse is the same thing as making other stuff better. Nerfing mending and removing our restoration staff bonus doesn't make healing ritual better, other classes better healers, or Templar less desired in the healer role. It just makes us worse healers.

Feidam

Templar's were hands down the better healers. With the conversion to spell power and magicka affecting the staff weapons on the PTS the resto skills are performing much better. Now that is a buff for everyone. The templar's would be boosted just that much more. Which they obviously did not want to happen.

Nerfs while not always fun can be just as necessary as buffs. If all they ever did was buff buff buff then the content would trivialize and they would have to rebalance the whole game. Then rinse and repeat.

So yes I'm ok with nerfs when they help produce a more evenly balanced product.

Also, I didn't state nerfing the the resto bonus made healing ritual better. I mentioned we should look at improving the under used skills.

Dredlord

timidobserver wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

danovic wrote: »

Think Zos doesn't play enough Templars to realize the mending 30 percent increasing chance is for critical heals not offensive crits. They need to change it back!

I am pretty sure it was done because non-Templar healers have been complaining about being inferior for a long time.

Implying the inferiority had anything to do with mending

It was because breath of life is in every way superior to every resto staff heal in the game.

Mending is a large part of what makes Breath of Life superior.

not even close. no other heal in the game can spike for 900 base, non crit.

The 900 base only applies a significant heal to one person. The additional targets only get a meh heal. However, when Breath of Life crits everyone gets a large heal. Mending is major when doing competitive content like Sanctum Ophidia and Vet DSA.

incorrect, everyone does not get a large heal when it crits, each heal crits independently. many times I have crit healed someone on the main heal and got small non crit secondary heal resulting in my death.

I think you missed the point by trying to find something to prove wrong. That point being that the base heal of the primary target can be nice, but the secondary targets is not that great of a base heal. Which is why mending is part of what makes BOL powerful. You can count on all low health targets getting a crit heal when it is needed like the pull phase on the final boss of Vet Dsa. Now more RNG is involved.

try not to take it personally when you make a mistake and it gets pointed out, nobody cares who you are... only that what we are debating here is based on correct information.

Why would anyone care who I am given that I am just another Joe poster like anyone else here? What are you even talking about? If anything you are the one taking it personally by saying something like "Nobody cares who you are."

Also, there was no mistake on my part. It is likely just a misinterpretation on your part. Your premise is based around accusing me of saying thst BOL crits on all targets or none and I never said that. Everyone knows that each heal can crit.

just let it go, you took it all personal accusing me of looking for your mistakes...simply not true.
don't misinform ppl here to bolster a weak argument, nuff said

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Nibelaja wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Xiana wrote: »

Another nerf to templar heal:

Calling a bug-fix a 'nerf' is kind of /emo, don't you think?

That change is absolutly stupid. Why should i make a full healerbuild, if the only 2 healing trees arent compatible?

I wouldn't disagree, but that's a different point .. in any case Master's 5% buff at tier 2 is hardly going to make the difference between a win and a wipe so it's kind of moot whether anyone will notice that one, Expert's 15% may be noticeable once in a blue moon but hardly a cause for the melodrama that some have engaged in over this.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Xiana wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Xiana wrote: »

Another nerf to templar heal:

Calling a bug-fix a 'nerf' is kind of /emo, don't you think?

So, they way it worked since beta is now considered a bug? O Really?

If you want to call ZOS liars please do, otherwise the answer to your question is "yes". Just because something has bee like it is 'forever' doesn't mean it needn't be changed if it was never intended to be like it.

You are incorrect. The passive on the tooltip since beta said "increases ALL healing done by 3%"

I know it has I checked before I posted.

WAI means Working as Intended, I take that to mean as Intended by the designer .. this wouldn't be the first time the developer who implemented something got it wrong, would it?

Maulkin

Having spent most of last evening duelling, I'm gonna give my view on Templars from the eyes of a Sorc. It's on the long side, so bear with me.

Templars seem much stronger in 1.6 then 1.5 which is a good thing cause I rarely felt troubled by Templars before. A few dedicated duellists had come up with interesting builds that were very strong, but your average Templar would be a weaker damage dealer and thus have to focus on healing and shielding. The class seemed to lack the damage output to push others hard enough.

1.6 is a whole different game for Templars. They hit hard. Both melee and ranged damage dealers seem very capable. Ranged casters with Crushy Shock, Dark Flare and Entropy are as capable damage dealers as anyone. The inclusion of Radiant Destruction to the mix makes them very potent.

On this subject and because there has been a lot of QQ around here about Radiant Destruction, I'll say that I didn't find it OP in duels. You can shield through it or interrupt it so it seems fine to me. I'll reserve judgement about its effectiveness in open PvP till I get to do some.

Moving on, stamina Templars built around 2h seem beast mode atm, in single-target damage. But then again, upon reflection, so did a lot of the stamina DKs an Sorcs I played. The addition of Vigour, the changes to the 2H and the 0 mitigation of light armor seem to be a game changer. These changes are not specific to Templar, I must stress. The weak spot of stamina builds seems to be the insane amount of CC you get in PvP which costs stamina to get out of every time. But they are in a much better place than before.

Overall, I'm gonna say I've been positively surprised by the class. They seem very strong all around and can't be pigeon-holed into 1 build any more. My only major gripe is that stunlock from Jabs. Every other hard CC in the game now grants CC immunity, even Streak. The fact that Jabs is now both insanely powerful (which is good) and a stun that doesn't grant you CC immunity is in my eyes a travesty. Other than that Templars seem pretty good

technohic

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

My only major gripe is that stunlock from Jabs. Every other hard CC in the game now grants CC immunity, even Streak. The fact that Jabs is now both insanely powerful (which is good) and a stun that doesn't grant you CC immunity is in my eyes a travesty. Other than that Templars seem pretty good

I'm not banking on that staying. Looking at how I thought jabs would work, I kind of chose brawler in stead for a stamina shield, even if very small, and its a quick hit. But if jabs stays anywhere close to what it actually is, I will swap.

Maulkin

technohic wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

My only major gripe is that stunlock from Jabs. Every other hard CC in the game now grants CC immunity, even Streak. The fact that Jabs is now both insanely powerful (which is good) and a stun that doesn't grant you CC immunity is in my eyes a travesty. Other than that Templars seem pretty good

I'm not banking on that staying. Looking at how I thought jabs would work, I kind of chose brawler in stead for a stamina shield, even if very small, and its a quick hit. But if jabs stays anywhere close to what it actually is, I will swap.

I wouldn't blame you for swapping. You use what is given to you.

I was hit by stamina Templars for up to 10k (crit ofc) with biting jabs when I was close to execute. I've seen 12k hits too. An average hit seems to be in the 5k-6k region. That's 1/4 of the health of most people since the HP changes. The damage is high but this part like I said I have no problem with.

But for such a high damage ability to both offer hard CC and more importantly a total stunlock with no CC immunity if you can't CC break is in my humble opinion unbalanced. In 1.5 it was gimmicky but now it's a death sentence, because you'll never generate stamina quick enough to get out now. Your regen has been diminished and it ticks every 2". In 2" you have lost half your health at least, if you're lucky. In 4" (two ticks) you are dead with 100% certainty. Imagine insta-cast Crystal Fragments with no CC immunity, well it's close to that but melee ofc.

For those that think I'm exaggerating and what not, watch Sabre Ali's video (copied from another thread)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2R7Tingglk

timidobserver

Feidam wrote: »

Templar's were hands down the better healers. With the conversion to spell power and magicka affecting the staff weapons on the PTS the resto skills are performing much better. Now that is a buff for everyone. The templar's would be boosted just that much more. Which they obviously did not want to happen.

Nerfs while not always fun can be just as necessary as buffs. If all they ever did was buff buff buff then the content would trivialize and they would have to rebalance the whole game. Then rinse and repeat.

So yes I'm ok with nerfs when they help produce a more evenly balanced product.

Dredlord wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

danovic wrote: »

Think Zos doesn't play enough Templars to realize the mending 30 percent increasing chance is for critical heals not offensive crits. They need to change it back!

I am pretty sure it was done because non-Templar healers have been complaining about being inferior for a long time.

Implying the inferiority had anything to do with mending

It was because breath of life is in every way superior to every resto staff heal in the game.

Mending is a large part of what makes Breath of Life superior.

not even close. no other heal in the game can spike for 900 base, non crit.

The 900 base only applies a significant heal to one person. The additional targets only get a meh heal. However, when Breath of Life crits everyone gets a large heal. Mending is major when doing competitive content like Sanctum Ophidia and Vet DSA.

incorrect, everyone does not get a large heal when it crits, each heal crits independently. many times I have crit healed someone on the main heal and got small non crit secondary heal resulting in my death.

I think you missed the point by trying to find something to prove wrong. That point being that the base heal of the primary target can be nice, but the secondary targets is not that great of a base heal. Which is why mending is part of what makes BOL powerful. You can count on all low health targets getting a crit heal when it is needed like the pull phase on the final boss of Vet Dsa. Now more RNG is involved.

try not to take it personally when you make a mistake and it gets pointed out, nobody cares who you are... only that what we are debating here is based on correct information.

Why would anyone care who I am given that I am just another Joe poster like anyone else here? What are you even talking about? If anything you are the one taking it personally by saying something like "Nobody cares who you are."

Also, there was no mistake on my part. It is likely just a misinterpretation on your part. Your premise is based around accusing me of saying thst BOL crits on all targets or none and I never said that. Everyone knows that each heal can crit.

just let it go, you took it all personal accusing me of looking for your mistakes...simply not true.
don't misinform ppl here to bolster a weak argument, nuff said

Making the claim over and over does not make it true.

eliisra

They really got it in for templar healers(also tanks) in 1.6

Pretty much every skill and passive I lean on when healing in PvP and PvE is getting nerfed. There's 2 passives in resto RiP, Mending passive also kaput, Spell Symmetry and than Immovable(mandatory for a templar healer in PvP) getting nerfed hard.

Light armor, also mandatory when healing, is made out of paper on PTS. Apparently you're suppose to spam 50 different types shields to stay alive now while simultaneously keeping track of 5 sec Immovable. It's not my idea of fun game play.

Healing in ESO already comes with the most uninspiring and dull combat mechanics ever seen, now they add more penalties. I really want to say screw it and go full dps stamina jabby monster, but as a templar I will still be expected to deliver heals.

That's why I really wanted to see sorc, DK and NB buffed and more capable in healing roles. Was hoping so hard for that. Instead ZoS crapped on my templar lol. I mean that nerf to resto actually makes my NB a lesser healer and self-healer to.

C0pp3rhead

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Xiana wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Xiana wrote: »

Another nerf to templar heal:

Calling a bug-fix a 'nerf' is kind of /emo, don't you think?

So, they way it worked since beta is now considered a bug? O Really?

If you want to call ZOS liars please do, otherwise the answer to your question is "yes". Just because something has been like it is 'forever' doesn't mean it needn't be changed if it was never intended to be like it.

The point several people are trying to make is this: these passives were working as intended (WAI), and now ZOS has changed its mind, providing us with a poor excuse. I say it was WAI because other weapon lines provide bonuses to damage, bleed effects, critical strike chance, etc. that do (and will continute to) stack with bonuses from class skills.

Moreover, Templars were meant to be the best healers in the game. Although I don't agree with the design, certain classes were meant for certain roles: templars have no passive bonuses to sneak nor detection radius reduction, but NB's do. ZOS has had a difficult time allowing players to create synergy between different skill lines - they seem to be abandoning all attempts at this point.

@Feidam‌ brings up a good point. The switch to spell damage has made resto staff more powerful at healing, to the point that synergy with the Restoring Light tree could be considered OP. The problem with this view, however, is that the Resto Staff passives gave healing bonuses to all class abilities from siphoning to GDB. Just as @timidobserver‌ says: nerfing our healing doesn't make other classes better; It just makes us worse healers.

david.haypreub18_ESO

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Moving on, stamina Templars built around 2h seem beast mode atm, in single-target damage. But then again, upon reflection, so did a lot of the stamina DKs an Sorcs I played. The addition of Vigour, the changes to the 2H and the 0 mitigation of light armor seem to be a game changer. These changes are not specific to Templar, I must stress. The weak spot of stamina builds seems to be the insane amount of CC you get in PvP which costs stamina to get out of every time. But they are in a much better place than before.

Great post; thanks for that!

The one thing I would disagree with is that Stamina Templars are in a much better place than before. They are nerfing Restoring Aura (the prime reason Stamina Templars found a niche) to oblivion. It is going from an 80% buff to a 20% buff. As one poster noted, now, Green Dragon Blood has better regen than Restoring Aura... and GDB has a massive heal on top of that.

Lettigall

Maybe it's just me, but putting Restoring Aura on skill bar seems like waste of space. And correct me if I'm wrong, it also don't give you anything if Momentum is activated, you can't have 2 mayor buffs at same time.

I wouldn't say that this skill is nerfed to oblivion, I rather say it's killed on spot...

likewow777

Lettigall wrote: »

Maybe it's just me, but putting Restoring Aura on skill bar seems like waste of space. And correct me if I'm wrong, it also don't give you anything if Momentum is activated, you can't have 2 mayor buffs at same time.

I wouldn't say that this skill is nerfed to oblivion, I rather say it's killed on spot...

I morphed it to Repentance instead because the 20% boost to Aura is so low. Plus, Repentance doesn't cost anything and I prefer the burst heal/stamina rather than the slow trickle through regen buffs granted by Aura.