REFLECTIVE SCALES NEEDS NERF

Soulac

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Chesimac wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Best DPS i'd say belongs to NB, best Defense is easily a Templar by far, best Self Heals...again that's a Templar.

And... dk is second at all those and best at aoe dps

Second best dps if say is dk, defense is dependent on certain things, shield stacking is really powerful right now so sorcs are good at that.... Just taking hits though and staying up if say dk is second best, but at same time my nightblade spamming nothing but sap essence can also stay up easily. Best heal again that's anyone using restro staff, best burst healing at low hp is a dk for sure.

Not sure where you get best aoe is dk, that again is nightblades with impulse and sap essence (throwing down multiple veil of blades)

Well what do you think a NB should use then?
If you don't wanna use destro, the only AoE is Sap Essence. (Twisting path is that low, it doesn't count)

I doubt that the Nb AoE surpass the DK AoE, maybe as vamp but not with a stick only.

Sanct16

Sap Essence + Twisting Path + 10% more damage while invisible in batswarm = best aoe dps ingame afaik.
Twisting Path deals like 800 damage overall with no target cap.

Sanct16

Maybe change change reflect so only 4 spells get reflected while the rest gets absorbed. So all you noobs can no longer shoot themselves to death without rendering the ability nearly useless.

coplannb16_ESO

As mentioned earlier, my main is a DK tank. I think the changes are okay (4 projectils is still 4 times better than shield-absorb/deflect skill from S/B) and its a better solution than increasing the cost.

Now remove block-casting, remove animation canceling and balance the armor types (especially buff heavy armor, its a shame) and we might have decent AvA/PvP.

Koensol

Sanct16 wrote: »

Maybe change change reflect so only 4 spells get reflected while the rest gets absorbed. So all you noobs can no longer shoot themselves to death without rendering the ability nearly useless.

It is NOwhere near useless now. It only removes the ability for DKs to stand near a zerg and reflect ALL their range. No other ability in the game comes even close to that. Reflecting 4 projectiles is still really powerful. Stop this overreacting.

Spangla

Whilst ZOS I'm sure most of the community appreciated what you are going to do with this.

This does not go far enough.

Makes no difference - Its still spammable 1v1 and means you cant kill a dk as a ranged character unless you use a staff.

Spell should get progressively more expensive to cast instead.

There will be alot of crying in this thread and saying dk is being nerfed into uselessness. Just remember the bash thread. Those dirty dk's swore blind it was fine. Um No it wasnt.

Night-claw

spangla really? -_-

hopefully this thread dies and this little lie that slipped out will fade away.
#nomorenerf!

Sypher

if anyone cares what i have to think O_O

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyFNy24fViM

Soris

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, just popping in to let you know that we do have plans to adjust Reflective Scales in Update 6. Currently, you can reflect an infinite number of projectiles per cast; we will be setting a maximum number of projectiles that the ability can reflect per cast, the maximum being four. We look forward to hearing your feedback on this once it's available to test on the PTS.

Can you please delete my DK and give all its skillpoints and its Alliance Rank to my Templar instead?

You should still thank that limited reflect you have. Blazing shield won't protect you from anything. It usually depletes by a single snipe shot or sorc's fragment.

themizario

Does anybody else feel like bow is the FOTM that a ton of newbs picked up and are calling for nerf just so they don't have to develop any skill for PvP?

They're just mad they kill themselves.

Your argument that I shouldn't have to choose a different skill is invalid. Why even have different class or weapon trees?

I'll make my build so I can spam reflective scales even with a projectile cap of 4 . I'll spam it and you will kill yourself STILL!

DK'S unite! Start in All CAPS thread for bolt escape needing nerfed, blazing shield and shadow cloak.

Nerf the other classes, nerf them now!

*climbs down soap box*

Laggus

Columba wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, just popping in to let you know that we do have plans to adjust Reflective Scales in Update 6. Currently, you can reflect an infinite number of projectiles per cast; we will be setting a maximum number of projectiles that the ability can reflect per cast, the maximum being four. We look forward to hearing your feedback on this once it's available to test on the PTS.

Will you be adding range skills to the DK to compensate for this? It's hard enough trying to play a stamina based melee character in a very heavily range dominated Cyrodiil as it is. Or by "play as you want" do you mean i'll be forced to use a bow or staff ?

Can't dks use bows? Lol.

Thats my point exactly..lots more DKs will use bows now that didnt before. Its a ranged war. No real melee DPS options that can better bows. Its not a good thing.

Laggus

Koensol wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Maybe change change reflect so only 4 spells get reflected while the rest gets absorbed. So all you noobs can no longer shoot themselves to death without rendering the ability nearly useless.

It is NOwhere near useless now. It only removes the ability for DKs to stand near a zerg and reflect ALL their range. No other ability in the game comes even close to that. Reflecting 4 projectiles is still really powerful. Stop this overreacting.

So zerg blobs are fine then!

Soris

Why are you pretending like only DKs can and should be able to be a forward tank and other classes should just escape away? What about other classes such as templars and NBs who wants to be tanky? (Even templars dont have any escape tool just like DKs.) And do you aware that DKs still have best tools for tanking and more importantly providing lots of CC and high damage while tanking? -and incredible ability to sustain all of these with certain passive skills-
So what is the problem? You'll just cast that reflect more often like I do with my blazing shield.

I'm sorry you will no longer be %100 immune to any ranged attacks anymore. It had to be changed and happily it's happening now. So it's time to learn to dodge and use terrain for your advantage, blocking line of sight for ranged opponents etc.. No more sitting in an open field without any concern.

Adapt, I say, and you will be just fine as before.

However, this change will affect medium/heavy armor builds very badly. That's really sad tbh.

Sanct16

faernaa wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, just popping in to let you know that we do have plans to adjust Reflective Scales in Update 6. Currently, you can reflect an infinite number of projectiles per cast; we will be setting a maximum number of projectiles that the ability can reflect per cast, the maximum being four. We look forward to hearing your feedback on this once it's available to test on the PTS.

Can you please delete my DK and give all its skillpoints and its Alliance Rank to my Templar instead?

You should still thank that limited reflect you have. Blazing shield won't protect you from anything. It usually depletes by a single snipe shot or sorc's fragment.

You kill people with damage. Reflect is easy to counter. Maybe it is still ok but I like Blazing more, especially against zergballs as Blazing Shield will hurt them while reflect does not bother them at all.

Xsorus

Soulac wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Chesimac wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Best DPS i'd say belongs to NB, best Defense is easily a Templar by far, best Self Heals...again that's a Templar.

And... dk is second at all those and best at aoe dps

Second best dps if say is dk, defense is dependent on certain things, shield stacking is really powerful right now so sorcs are good at that.... Just taking hits though and staying up if say dk is second best, but at same time my nightblade spamming nothing but sap essence can also stay up easily. Best heal again that's anyone using restro staff, best burst healing at low hp is a dk for sure.

Not sure where you get best aoe is dk, that again is nightblades with impulse and sap essence (throwing down multiple veil of blades)

Well what do you think a NB should use then?
If you don't wanna use destro, the only AoE is Sap Essence. (Twisting path is that low, it doesn't count)

I doubt that the Nb AoE surpass the DK AoE, maybe as vamp but not with a stick only.

What do you mean if you don't wanna do aoe with destro, how do you think dks are doing aoe damage? With their *** version of sap essence? No they use impulse like everyone else, sap essence while keeping impulse dot up equals a crap ton of veils... Which is why nbs are obscene right now, even with stamina builds you can put out obscene aoe with nbs, for me to even come close to it with bow I have to run Kynes kiss on my dk. There is no class in this game that can out aoe a nb right now.

Xsorus

faernaa wrote: »

Why are you pretending like only DKs can and should be able to be a forward tank and other classes should just escape away? What about other classes such as templars and NBs who wants to be tanky? (Even templars dont have any escape tool just like DKs.) And do you aware that DKs still have best tools for tanking and more importantly providing lots of CC and high damage while tanking?
So what is the problem? You just cast that reflect more often like I do with my blazing shield.

I'm sorry you will no longer be %100 immune to any ranged attacks anymore. It had to be changed and happily it's happening now. So it's time to learn to dodge and use terrain for your advantage, blocking line of sight for ranged opponents etc.. No more sitting in an open field without any concern.

Adapt, I say, and you will be just fine as before.

However, this change will affect medium/heavy armor builds very badly. That's really sad tbh.

If you're stamina based with medium or heavy you didn't use reflective scale anyway cause of the cost, you used defensive stance. Well bow dks use reflective but that's just for killing other dks.

Nijjion

I wouldn't mind the RS being only 4 reflects if they made it last like 30 seconds (like shield reflect), though they would need to make sure the visual que of it disappearing works as no proper buff bar to see when it goes. Too many abilities already suck with visual ques not very noticeable.

Armitas

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

if anyone cares what i have to think O_O

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyFNy24fViM

Good vid, a lot of good points. I hope ZOS watches it.

I see you have just as many points in inferno as I do. lol.

Gorthax

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

if anyone cares what i have to think O_O

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyFNy24fViM

@Sypherpkub17_ESO‌

I fully agree with a lot of the points you made here, however, i do not think the worry is justified. What they did to RS i can agree with. It is not the change that should of been done. I would of like to have seen two things:

1) Same treatment as bolt escape

or

2) Fix what it reflects.

Lets be serious for a second about this skill. All class fanboyism aside from everyone. This skill was reflecting things that made NO sense. It literally had no down side to it other than the cost of magicka. Infinite reflections for four seconds at the low cost of it (after reductions)? That is no where near balanced especially when you tie it into everything it reflects. Especially since it was reflecting some ultimates.....you save up and save up just to have it reflected.

There is a long list of things that make no sense as to being reflected by the skill. Back when pet explosions worked (they do ZERO damage now) it was a 50/50 if the explosion would be reflected...(the summoner would take 0 damage as well as the DK).

Now since you talked about bolt escape lets look at that. Sure sorcs can bolt escape away but do you know how many times I have streaked away only to be charged to streak to be charged. Or shot from arrows at a rediculous range? Streak gives us mobility but it can be easily countered and stopped.

Compare that to reflective scales which grants immunity from all ranged and even a good majority of things that make no sense. You talked about having no way to counter ranged now and how it is going to turn into a pew pew fest. It is under my assumption (because i see it A LOT) that all DKs block cast (not just DKs do it).

So you get the damage mitigation from blocking (which is a pretty substantial number) which will allow you to walk towards them enough to shield charge. Plus your shield will still be up while you use talons then whip them to death. DKs will still be a unstoppable force, its just now there is at least a window of hope when it comes to using ranged. But dont worry your shield will still absorb most of the damage as always :P

Love the video, it was very informative but I still think it is far to early to say everything will turn into a pew pew fest now that DKs reflective scales took a hit. Keep up the good work on the videos.

Gorthax

Laggus wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, just popping in to let you know that we do have plans to adjust Reflective Scales in Update 6. Currently, you can reflect an infinite number of projectiles per cast; we will be setting a maximum number of projectiles that the ability can reflect per cast, the maximum being four. We look forward to hearing your feedback on this once it's available to test on the PTS.

Will you be adding range skills to the DK to compensate for this? It's hard enough trying to play a stamina based melee character in a very heavily range dominated Cyrodiil as it is. Or by "play as you want" do you mean i'll be forced to use a bow or staff ?

Can't dks use bows? Lol.

Thats my point exactly..lots more DKs will use bows now that didnt before. Its a ranged war. No real melee DPS options that can better bows. Its not a good thing.

you cant say this lol Currently in pvp it is this way anyways(unless your a DK then you are not affected) With everything getting redone for 1.6 who is to say that bows will still be king. With any luck they reduced the range on the things. Maybe even adjusted them for the better. Only time will tell

Lava_Croft

Sanct16 wrote: »

Maybe change change reflect so only 4 spells get reflected while the rest gets absorbed. So all you noobs can no longer shoot themselves to death without rendering the ability nearly useless.

You mean, so that noobs like you can still be impervious to just about any ranged attack for a whole 4 seconds.

Gorthax

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Maybe change change reflect so only 4 spells get reflected while the rest gets absorbed. So all you noobs can no longer shoot themselves to death without rendering the ability nearly useless.

You mean, so that noobs like you can still be impervious to just about any ranged attack for a whole 4 seconds.

Wouldnt that just be great @Sanct16‌ lets just have reflective scales ABSORB almost everything in the game instead of reflecting it. Because that still somehow seems balanced right lol smart dk is smart

eventide03b14a_ESO

Armitas wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I'm sure you're a great player and you will adapt. This isn't the end of the world like everyone is making it seem. That is all I am saying. There are other options.

I don't know if I'm a good player or not, but I will adapt. It's not "the end" for DK's. My concern is over how this particular change will change the landscape of pvp (pew pew stand offs) and how this further narrows down DKs into fewer and fewer builds. If we choose range we lose our class damagers, if we choose melee we suffer focus fire without executes or escapes.

Even those fighting for an RS nerf think the 4 hits is bogus. If they need to nerf it they need to do it right and this isn't it.

But those are the same challenges every other class has.

You can cast ranged class damagers at melee range, however you cannot cast melee class damagers at range. It only works one way.

So let me make sure I get this. DKs can only do close range damage, therefore they get an ability that makes them completely immune to all projectiles, because they for some reason shouldn't be required to use weapon abilities.

If DKs have an unmitigated ability to completely reflect all projects back at the caster shouldn't the other classes all have a way to be immune to talons, lava whip, searing strike, fiery breath, stone fist, etc.? I mean it's fair right? We should be able to reflect all the nasty things you throw on us when you perma root us in place and hit us with all of your high damaging abilities. The fact that those that play your class still don't see this side to it is mind boggling given how well reported it is.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Gooey wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Bipolo wrote: »

I love the graphic, and yes currently they can reflect Meteor.

Do people use meteor in pvp? Seems kind of odd knowing that its reflectable and pretty weak

I don't personally use it, but it's been reported that it does in fact reflect.

eventide03b14a_ESO

GunemCleric wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Are you dense? I never said there was a 28 meter flame AoE. I have no idea why you seem to think that I said that.

oh, my bad, thought you were trying to tie the flame passive aoe to force shock, forgot you had no clue

No, you mistakenly thought I was linking them because you lack reading comprehension beyond a second grade level. I was talking about two completely separate things.
1 you complained you don't have ranged damage so I pointed out Force Shock. 2 you don't seem to think you have bonus damage to fire, when in fact you have two passives, World in Flame and Kindling.

At some point you decided to think that I was linking World of Flame to Force Shock. Which I never did. I did mention Kindling and unless they changed it, it grants a bonus to the burning effect, something that Force Shock does.

i read your post, try rereading what you said.

Also, Kindling increase flame damage of a dot tick, but Force Shock only has a chance of causing flame damage. And understood the mechanics involved you would know that it is not helpful. Stam/weapon affect force shock damage, the secondary is affected by magic pool/spell damage, flame DOT is modified by health. so to be truly useful i would have to buff all of that. crushing shock is a go to skill for the interrupt with possibility of flame dot, sort of like a weak sword. Kindling adds 66% to what is maybe a 40 point flame tick, i.e. makes it 43.

But i guess you knew all of that, right? no, bet you did not?

Burning status effect isn't a DoT? Because then either the tool tip needs to be changed or they need to redefine what a DoT is. I never said that you would rely solely on a destruction staff anyway. Again you choose to only focus on what you want instead of everything. The complaint was about lack of range damage, yet you have two weapon bars and 5 slots on each. I'm sure you can manage to fit the same DK abilities you always have.

Your class will still be pretty strong, you just wont be able to indefinitely stand there at a safe distance taking no damage. You want to ignore options presented to you because you enjoy feeling victimized. Deal with it and adapt.

eventide03b14a_ESO

AsweetRoll wrote: »

I think if reflect just absorbed spells, there was a potion to cut through reflecft, and you dealt 10% less damage while reflect was up it would have been a better nerf to go. Imo DKs should have lower DPS but be insane tanks. It needed to be nerfed but I think it should not have been nerfed the way it was.

Yeah right. There would be a different thread complaining that their damage has been reduced. This is a reasonable solution to an obviously OP ability. The problem is that they feel like their is nothing wrong with their class and moreover they feel like it's actually not a faceroll to play it.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Laggus wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pyatra wrote: »

Forward Tanks ≠ Heavy Armor... I think you just hit upon one of the problems. A tank SHOULD be wearing heavy armor to be a tank. DKs will be better at it, but no one should be running around in light or medium armor and tank 1vX. I hope the .6 changes fix this as it's getting silly.

In the case of the DK, after the changes there is only a ranged build with no DK damagers OR a heavy armor (or shielding glyph) build with low damage and sustainability in large group pvp. This pigeon holes the DK into A. Tanking with low dps and sustainability if they want to use class damagers or B. Ranged with dps but no class damagers.

It would be very awkward to force a class into such a strict build if they want to use their own class skills effectively.

If you are going to block everything and laugh at people trying to damage you then why should you have amazing dps as well? I never understood that concept. There HAS to be a trade off. No one should ever have both.

Not being rude here, seriously enlighten me to your thought process of this?

Fine but then give DKs a get out of dodge skill like BE or vanish like an NB etc etc. They were designed to take a soaking because they lack any type of escape skill. Now a few light attacks from staves or bows and thats the reflect used up.

You got 4 LOLs at the time of this post because your statement is so full of wrong it's laughable. DKs have plenty of defense beside RS and they are not getting rid of it they are only making it so that it can't reflect an unlimited amount of projectiles. You really think that Shadow Cloak is that great huh? Well unlike RS, Shadow Cloak doesn't work if you get hit with an AoE, It doesn't work if you have a DoT on someone, it can be countered with potions and it doesn't do any damage to an opponent. You cannot compare RS and Shadow Cloak.

eventide03b14a_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pyatra wrote: »

Forward Tanks ≠ Heavy Armor... I think you just hit upon one of the problems. A tank SHOULD be wearing heavy armor to be a tank. DKs will be better at it, but no one should be running around in light or medium armor and tank 1vX. I hope the .6 changes fix this as it's getting silly.

In the case of the DK, after the changes there is only a ranged build with no DK damagers OR a heavy armor (or shielding glyph) build with low damage and sustainability in large group pvp. This pigeon holes the DK into A. Tanking with low dps and sustainability if they want to use class damagers or B. Ranged with dps but no class damagers.

It would be very awkward to force a class into such a strict build if they want to use their own class skills effectively.

If you are going to block everything and laugh at people trying to damage you then why should you have amazing dps as well? I never understood that concept. There HAS to be a trade off. No one should ever have both.

Not being rude here, seriously enlighten me to your thought process of this?

Fine but then give DKs a get out of dodge skill like BE or vanish like an NB etc etc. They were designed to take a soaking because they lack any type of escape skill. Now a few light attacks from staves or bows and thats the reflect used up.

man you DK just want it all dont ya. Best DPS best Defense Best self heals now you want an escape just because INFINITE REFLECTION is no longer possible? What part of infinite sounds balanced?

Best DPS i'd say belongs to NB, best Defense is easily a Templar by far, best Self Heals...again that's a Templar.

^LMFAO =D DKs have it so rough.

GhostShadows

i played sorc played nb and at moment i m playing templar. never had problems to kill a dk.
from a healer pespective i must say nerf this skill and vet dungeons will be a pain for healers. they cant reflet hard mob skills to kill it fast dps will not make damage enough and in end healer is a crap cause let magicka finish.
at moment dk is the only thing that give a nice fight in cyrodill everything else is to fast to kill.
i dont like pvp that is 20 hits reply Q 20 hits reply Q.
i like chanlange and fights with 5 mins long
this skill make no much diference in pvp if u know wen u should stop hit to dont kill urself

Soulac

Well you can conter reflect simply with S&B, except Stamina range..
It's so funny how DKs try to avoid my cripple, if they block I drain their Stamina, if they use reflect, they still get hitted and maybe stunned, all a matter of timing.

Btw there are options to absorb every kind of skill, including Ultimates, fortunately no one use it atm. How? Test stuff and you will notice something.

And Melee is still awesome, for a NB at least and I don't mean ganking ***.
I think the same for DK if they would try different builds instead of copy others..
Mainstream isn't always the best.