REFLECTIVE SCALES NEEDS NERF

Bipolo

Now that ranged immune DK's are going the way of the dinosaurs lets have a look at the next months Class Ability nerf-crusade predictions:

Nightblade - Vampire
- infini Resource Siphon>Sap spam
- Instakill Ambush>Soul Harvest>Concealed Weapon

Templar - Vampire
- Blazing Shield spam
- CC locking Jabs/Spear spam

Sorc - Vampire
- Bolt Escape spam
- Bolt Escape spam (again)

Dragonknight - Vampire
- Talon spam
- Whip spam
- Dragon Blood spam
- Reflective Scale spam

/cough

I see a trend here, Vampire

Now why would that be? Hmmm...

Anyway,

reposting this, its all i have to say on the matter of Reflective Scale. I will miss it /NordDKtears, lol

eventide03b14a_ESO

Bipolo wrote: »

I love the graphic, and yes currently they can reflect Meteor.

Rune_Relic

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I'm sure you're a great player and you will adapt. This isn't the end of the world like everyone is making it seem. That is all I am saying. There are other options.

I don't know if I'm a good player or not, but I will adapt. It's not "the end" for DK's. My concern is over how this particular change will change the landscape of pvp (pew pew stand offs) and how this further narrows down DKs into fewer and fewer builds. If we choose range we lose our class damagers, if we choose melee we suffer focus fire without executes or escapes.

Even those fighting for an RS nerf think the 4 hits is bogus. If they need to nerf it they need to do it right and this isn't it.

But those are the same challenges every other class has.

QFT

Stamina build = bow
Magicka build = Destro

Stamina builds dont have magicka and lose all spell (class) damage potential.
They also have undaunted/vampire/world/mage skills compromised to go with the class nerf.

Except of course some spell options give weapon damage buffs to make up for what stamian builds lack in magicka...cos....fair. /sarcasm

Laggus

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Guys, please remember that many of our abilities are getting reworked for Update 6, so please give this a try on the PTS once it's available to see how it feels with all the other changes. Thanks!

When are you fixing lethal arrow? There's nothing more i'd like to see than DK's about to experience the pain the rest of us feel, But PLEASE this need fixed immediately before you go nerfing stuff.

Screw it..ill get rid of reflective Scales and slot a bow and spam lethal arrows like everyone else now!

Armitas

Bipolo wrote: »

ROLF bottom right corner.

Gooey

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Bipolo wrote: »

I love the graphic, and yes currently they can reflect Meteor.

Do people use meteor in pvp? Seems kind of odd knowing that its reflectable and pretty weak

GunemCleric

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Are you dense? I never said there was a 28 meter flame AoE. I have no idea why you seem to think that I said that.

oh, my bad, thought you were trying to tie the flame passive aoe to force shock, forgot you had no clue

No, you mistakenly thought I was linking them because you lack reading comprehension beyond a second grade level. I was talking about two completely separate things.
1 you complained you don't have ranged damage so I pointed out Force Shock. 2 you don't seem to think you have bonus damage to fire, when in fact you have two passives, World in Flame and Kindling.

At some point you decided to think that I was linking World of Flame to Force Shock. Which I never did. I did mention Kindling and unless they changed it, it grants a bonus to the burning effect, something that Force Shock does.

i read your post, try rereading what you said.

Also, Kindling increase flame damage of a dot tick, but Force Shock only has a chance of causing flame damage. And understood the mechanics involved you would know that it is not helpful. Stam/weapon affect force shock damage, the secondary is affected by magic pool/spell damage, flame DOT is modified by health. so to be truly useful i would have to buff all of that. crushing shock is a go to skill for the interrupt with possibility of flame dot, sort of like a weak sword. Kindling adds 66% to what is maybe a 40 point flame tick, i.e. makes it 43.

But i guess you knew all of that, right? no, bet you did not?

SRIBES

I think if reflect just absorbed spells, there was a potion to cut through reflecft, and you dealt 10% less damage while reflect was up it would have been a better nerf to go. Imo DKs should have lower DPS but be insane tanks. It needed to be nerfed but I think it should not have been nerfed the way it was.

Laggus

Gorthax wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pyatra wrote: »

Forward Tanks ≠ Heavy Armor... I think you just hit upon one of the problems. A tank SHOULD be wearing heavy armor to be a tank. DKs will be better at it, but no one should be running around in light or medium armor and tank 1vX. I hope the .6 changes fix this as it's getting silly.

In the case of the DK, after the changes there is only a ranged build with no DK damagers OR a heavy armor (or shielding glyph) build with low damage and sustainability in large group pvp. This pigeon holes the DK into A. Tanking with low dps and sustainability if they want to use class damagers or B. Ranged with dps but no class damagers.

It would be very awkward to force a class into such a strict build if they want to use their own class skills effectively.

If you are going to block everything and laugh at people trying to damage you then why should you have amazing dps as well? I never understood that concept. There HAS to be a trade off. No one should ever have both.

Not being rude here, seriously enlighten me to your thought process of this?

Fine but then give DKs a get out of dodge skill like BE or vanish like an NB etc etc. They were designed to take a soaking because they lack any type of escape skill. Now a few light attacks from staves or bows and thats the reflect used up.

Xsorus

I got by without it on my DK for a long time....Only reason I've been using it lately is to kill other DK's with my Bow attacks.

The only thing i see it really hurting is fighting large zergs... simply because it'll get used up in seconds anyway..But then again if you did that ever since 1.5...If a single Stamina Using Bow DK was in that zerg you were dead anyway.

So i'm not that concerned about it.

I'm more concerned with things like removing blocking while feared (which is going to bad for the game) or just in general block nerfing (basically limiting 1vX to Absorb shield builds at that point)

Nihil

With all this uprising over RS you would think they were the only class being changed. It is true we have very little info other then a few things here and there but to get extremely frantic making claims of underpowered skills is really unfounded right now. As a sorc I have a good feeling that if I wanted to run around with Destruction staff I am going to be hit pretty hard this next patch due to them putting upper limits on some skills.

"Each source of benefit to a certain stat has it’s own caps. For example, buffs, equipment, traits, and more will each have their own independent maxima to contributing towards the overall limit." - tamriel foundry guild summit day 1

To me this means that my critical surge will have an upper limit (as if you don't limit this skill why limit any other skill?). What this does to other classes is buff them in comparison to me in the destruction staff / restoration staff field as my over all output will most likely decrease.

This update is going to rebalance the entire game, champion system + revamped skills, everything we are currently evaluating what the GM said could completely be out the window. So why be bent out of shape for knowing like 1/1,000,000 of the changes ( random number) that will be implemented in this update.

Lava_Croft

Laggus wrote: »

They were designed to take a soaking because they lack any type of escape skill.

The escape skills of the Sorc and NB are the equivalent of your self-healing capabilities.

Gorthax

Laggus wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pyatra wrote: »

Forward Tanks ≠ Heavy Armor... I think you just hit upon one of the problems. A tank SHOULD be wearing heavy armor to be a tank. DKs will be better at it, but no one should be running around in light or medium armor and tank 1vX. I hope the .6 changes fix this as it's getting silly.

In the case of the DK, after the changes there is only a ranged build with no DK damagers OR a heavy armor (or shielding glyph) build with low damage and sustainability in large group pvp. This pigeon holes the DK into A. Tanking with low dps and sustainability if they want to use class damagers or B. Ranged with dps but no class damagers.

It would be very awkward to force a class into such a strict build if they want to use their own class skills effectively.

If you are going to block everything and laugh at people trying to damage you then why should you have amazing dps as well? I never understood that concept. There HAS to be a trade off. No one should ever have both.

Not being rude here, seriously enlighten me to your thought process of this?

Fine but then give DKs a get out of dodge skill like BE or vanish like an NB etc etc. They were designed to take a soaking because they lack any type of escape skill. Now a few light attacks from staves or bows and thats the reflect used up.

man you DK just want it all dont ya. Best DPS best Defense Best self heals now you want an escape just because INFINITE REFLECTION is no longer possible? What part of infinite sounds balanced?

Xsorus

Gorthax wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pyatra wrote: »

Forward Tanks ≠ Heavy Armor... I think you just hit upon one of the problems. A tank SHOULD be wearing heavy armor to be a tank. DKs will be better at it, but no one should be running around in light or medium armor and tank 1vX. I hope the .6 changes fix this as it's getting silly.

In the case of the DK, after the changes there is only a ranged build with no DK damagers OR a heavy armor (or shielding glyph) build with low damage and sustainability in large group pvp. This pigeon holes the DK into A. Tanking with low dps and sustainability if they want to use class damagers or B. Ranged with dps but no class damagers.

It would be very awkward to force a class into such a strict build if they want to use their own class skills effectively.

If you are going to block everything and laugh at people trying to damage you then why should you have amazing dps as well? I never understood that concept. There HAS to be a trade off. No one should ever have both.

Not being rude here, seriously enlighten me to your thought process of this?

Fine but then give DKs a get out of dodge skill like BE or vanish like an NB etc etc. They were designed to take a soaking because they lack any type of escape skill. Now a few light attacks from staves or bows and thats the reflect used up.

man you DK just want it all dont ya. Best DPS best Defense Best self heals now you want an escape just because INFINITE REFLECTION is no longer possible? What part of infinite sounds balanced?

Best DPS i'd say belongs to NB, best Defense is easily a Templar by far, best Self Heals...again that's a Templar.

Famemonster

Gorthax wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pyatra wrote: »

Forward Tanks ≠ Heavy Armor... I think you just hit upon one of the problems. A tank SHOULD be wearing heavy armor to be a tank. DKs will be better at it, but no one should be running around in light or medium armor and tank 1vX. I hope the .6 changes fix this as it's getting silly.

In the case of the DK, after the changes there is only a ranged build with no DK damagers OR a heavy armor (or shielding glyph) build with low damage and sustainability in large group pvp. This pigeon holes the DK into A. Tanking with low dps and sustainability if they want to use class damagers or B. Ranged with dps but no class damagers.

It would be very awkward to force a class into such a strict build if they want to use their own class skills effectively.

If you are going to block everything and laugh at people trying to damage you then why should you have amazing dps as well? I never understood that concept. There HAS to be a trade off. No one should ever have both.

Not being rude here, seriously enlighten me to your thought process of this?

Fine but then give DKs a get out of dodge skill like BE or vanish like an NB etc etc. They were designed to take a soaking because they lack any type of escape skill. Now a few light attacks from staves or bows and thats the reflect used up.

man you DK just want it all dont ya. Best DPS best Defense Best self heals now you want an escape just because INFINITE REFLECTION is no longer possible? What part of infinite sounds balanced?

My Templar has better self heals than my DK.
After the RS change, I think my Templar will have about the same or better defense as my DK.
Looking forward to Templar DPS buffs.

Rune_Relic

Nihil wrote: »

With all this uprising over RS you would think they were the only class being changed. It is true we have very little info other then a few things here and there but to get extremely frantic making claims of underpowered skills is really unfounded right now. As a sorc I have a good feeling that if I wanted to run around with Destruction staff I am going to be hit pretty hard this next patch due to them putting upper limits on some skills.

"Each source of benefit to a certain stat has it’s own caps. For example, buffs, equipment, traits, and more will each have their own independent maxima to contributing towards the overall limit." - tamriel foundry guild summit day 1

To me this means that my critical surge will have an upper limit (as if you don't limit this skill why limit any other skill?). What this does to other classes is buff them in comparison to me in the destruction staff / restoration staff field as my over all output will most likely decrease.

This update is going to rebalance the entire game, champion system + revamped skills, everything we are currently evaluating what the GM said could completely be out the window. So why be bent out of shape for knowing like 1/1,000,000 of the changes ( random number) that will be implemented in this update.

Exactly,
come update 6.. everyone will be back to square one an re-evaluating every class and build anyway.
Evryone will be looking for that ...FOTM I win build.
Hopefully if ZOS has done their job...there simply wont be one to find.

Then what ? Will you all be happy all is fair...or will you al be pissed you have no I win button ?

Xsorus

yea just viewing the one change to Reflective Scale in 1.6 is silly, the entire game is going to change in terms of class balance...its pointless to speculate on how it'll be.

Gorthax

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pyatra wrote: »

Forward Tanks ≠ Heavy Armor... I think you just hit upon one of the problems. A tank SHOULD be wearing heavy armor to be a tank. DKs will be better at it, but no one should be running around in light or medium armor and tank 1vX. I hope the .6 changes fix this as it's getting silly.

In the case of the DK, after the changes there is only a ranged build with no DK damagers OR a heavy armor (or shielding glyph) build with low damage and sustainability in large group pvp. This pigeon holes the DK into A. Tanking with low dps and sustainability if they want to use class damagers or B. Ranged with dps but no class damagers.

It would be very awkward to force a class into such a strict build if they want to use their own class skills effectively.

If you are going to block everything and laugh at people trying to damage you then why should you have amazing dps as well? I never understood that concept. There HAS to be a trade off. No one should ever have both.

Not being rude here, seriously enlighten me to your thought process of this?

Fine but then give DKs a get out of dodge skill like BE or vanish like an NB etc etc. They were designed to take a soaking because they lack any type of escape skill. Now a few light attacks from staves or bows and thats the reflect used up.

man you DK just want it all dont ya. Best DPS best Defense Best self heals now you want an escape just because INFINITE REFLECTION is no longer possible? What part of infinite sounds balanced?

Best DPS i'd say belongs to NB, best Defense is easily a Templar by far, best Self Heals...again that's a Templar.

actually I will stand corrected AND admit it :P (was currently arguing with a buddy over this).

Chesimac

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Best DPS i'd say belongs to NB, best Defense is easily a Templar by far, best Self Heals...again that's a Templar.

And... dk is second at all those and best at aoe dps

ThatHappyCat

Why do DKs say they they need RS because they lack ranged abilities? Last time I checked most ranged DPS abilities used in Cyrodiil are from the bow or the destro staff, neither of which are class-specific.

Another defense I've heard people throw around is that DKs lack gap-closers and therefore need RS to close in. Again, 2/4 gap-closers are not class-specific.

Cody

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, just popping in to let you know that we do have plans to adjust Reflective Scales in Update 6. Currently, you can reflect an infinite number of projectiles per cast; we will be setting a maximum number of projectiles that the ability can reflect per cast, the maximum being four. We look forward to hearing your feedback on this once it's available to test on the PTS.

i do not believe this change is necessary;however, nor will it impact the game in a negative way.

if this means a DK has to find a way to play besides spamming talons and whip all day, fine by me. though it will take quite a bit to get used to.

and i hope y'all are not doing this simply because people are complaining about it.... if so, channel it to a more meaningful nerf/"fix"... like fixing lethal arrow de-buff stacking... or dealing with block and casting... or fixing lag... or stoping zerg blobs.... my build has no place in this zerg blob filled land known as Cyrodill:D

oh and PLEASE fix lethal arrow healing de-buff stacking..... i refuse to use it while the ridiculous stack is in place... but without snipe my DPS is pitiful. i dont get a lot of heals from funnel health(my spell damage sucks. lol) so snipe was my best source of damage.

Cody

the next thing to be nerfed i believe will be blazing shield spam:/

it will happen. trust me

Milf_Hero

lmao. these nerfs are hilarious. People in pvp complain about reflective scales for reflecting all projectiles back at them so for people that only spam 10 projectiles per 5 seconds that are all ranged throw a hissy fit. ZOS comes and nerfs it so now those people can still go ranged attack spamming. In a land of zergs where not only one person is rapidly shooting you with ranged attacks, I say some of these skills are quit necessary to work the way they worked originally. As I believe one developer said on an eso live episode that changing skills in pvp change skills in pvp. This hurt DK tanks doing vet dungeons and DSA. hey @ZOS don't nerf things. Just hurry and kick out spell crafting so people can come up with new builds and strategies to work around things. Even buff other classes. seriously. NERF should probably be the last option. Or possible separate the two completely different beasts. PVP could have class nerfs all up and down it. but once you go into pve your skills go back to how YOU CREATED the game in the first place. Right? you designed the game, tested it, had a fresh set of eyes look at it, it went through beta, and came out not working as intended? wth. I play pvp every once in a while but screw pvp. No skill. All ya gotta do is have a bigger group, use unstoppable, have healers, spam ults, use siege equipment, and above all, underhanded tactics. In the land of pve you actually need something called skill.

SRIBES

Since reflect is the DKs go to ability why don't we just make blazing shield deals 100% aoe damage back at attacks but can only be hit four times? Or make sap essence from 4 targets? I think a nerf was needed but not an over nerf.

Columba

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, just popping in to let you know that we do have plans to adjust Reflective Scales in Update 6. Currently, you can reflect an infinite number of projectiles per cast; we will be setting a maximum number of projectiles that the ability can reflect per cast, the maximum being four. We look forward to hearing your feedback on this once it's available to test on the PTS.

hahahahahahahaha

nice.

kijima

Damn shame, he was a good guy. This is what happens when you don't have Reflective Scales...

Columba

Orchish wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, just popping in to let you know that we do have plans to adjust Reflective Scales in Update 6. Currently, you can reflect an infinite number of projectiles per cast; we will be setting a maximum number of projectiles that the ability can reflect per cast, the maximum being four. We look forward to hearing your feedback on this once it's available to test on the PTS.

Will you be adding range skills to the DK to compensate for this? It's hard enough trying to play a stamina based melee character in a very heavily range dominated Cyrodiil as it is. Or by "play as you want" do you mean i'll be forced to use a bow or staff ?

Can't dks use bows? Lol.

Soulac

You guys know that scales isn't the only changed skill, huh?
Less QQ more sit and wait for the patch.

Or I need to buy more popcorn.. mom brb.

Xsorus

Chesimac wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Best DPS i'd say belongs to NB, best Defense is easily a Templar by far, best Self Heals...again that's a Templar.

And... dk is second at all those and best at aoe dps

Second best dps if say is dk, defense is dependent on certain things, shield stacking is really powerful right now so sorcs are good at that.... Just taking hits though and staying up if say dk is second best, but at same time my nightblade spamming nothing but sap essence can also stay up easily. Best heal again that's anyone using restro staff, best burst healing at low hp is a dk for sure.

Not sure where you get best aoe is dk, that again is nightblades with impulse and sap essence (throwing down multiple veil of blades)

Tintinabula

so...spend 6 months making DK a target..painting a bullseye on our butts and making it pretty obvious we need to be the first taken out...THEN..make it so one cast only reflects four projectiles....."nice"