Bolt Escape is Useless and Sorc Survivability

xDonMega

I don't understand applying a penalty for using it twice. You have to use it twice to counter 22m gap closer range.

TheWired

@‌NordJitsu

While I agree with you that things are not being handled properly by the dev team (completely redefining how things work based on user feedback rather than slowly incrementing fixes and changes), you can't seriously tell everyone here that BE was fine as it was before. It was seriously unfair since launch and people playing sorcerer had a good run with it. The skill is meant to give you a chance to escape and not being used as a means of transportation (some sorcerers I know never ever used a horse in PvP because there was really no point)

My first character on live servers was a DK. It was a lot of fun, but I got tired of the game-play around the time bash was OP/people were using talons/banner.
I played a sorcerer and found that it wasn't my favorite play-style either. What I hated the most about the class is the pets skill line (needs a complete review/change in my opinion).

Anyway, my gf is playing as a Templar; it's her first mmorpg and one of the first games she's ever played in her life and honestly, she didn't picked the easiest class to start with. Having played both DK and Sorcerer and gf being a Templar, I rerolled to nightblade when absolutely all skills were broken.

When you have played a NB up to VR content as well as other classes, it is easy to see what works/worked best. All of the broken skills aren't really an issue until you reach VR1. People have found ways to play their NB with the broken skills. That being said, most of those still aren't being fixed in the next update. (cloak mechanics not working properly, haste not working at all, fear not triggering half the time, stuns not triggering half the time and the long list goes on). Its not that NB needs a boost or anything, the damage is fine as is, but rather a fix to prevent us all from dying because our skills aren't working, or our weapons scale with the wrong stats.

Bolt Escape's change was poorly handled, I agree, but it is not game breaking.
You can still use the skill to escape a few times, you just need to adapt your game-play. Nightblades and Templars do have the right to complain. Templars are right down useless and NB can't play unless they use light armor and a staff.

xDonMega

So... I dout you or your GF do much PvP...

NordJitsu

@TheWired‌

NB bugs were bad. All are in agreement. But they really didn't need buffs when things were working properly. Its a strong class that happened to be broken. And its not true that you need to be in Light Armor. You can make a nasty archetypal rogue with a bow, dual wield, and medium armor.

Templars have very few viable PvP specs and almost no specs (I can't think of any) that make them desirable in high end PvE. They aren't broken, they're just bad. That's the difference between them and NBs.

Sorcs have like a handful of good skills. Like you said, the entire Daedric Summoning line is complete trash. Two of the 5 Dark Magic skills are trash and one two are highly situatioal. The only really great Dark Magic skill is Crystal Fragments. Storm Calling is by far the best tree, but still has one stinker (Lightning Pool) that is only useful at all in dungeons if your tank is activating the synergy for you. Well I guess now Storm Calling has two stinkers as well (BE).

DKs literally have the best passives in the game and the best actives. The only bad skill they have is Inhale and its only bad because of the absurd target limit they added to it.

BE was fine. I am telling you that. Its been nerfed 4 times now. First they increased the cost. Then they added a magicka regen debuff after casting. Then they made it so you couldn't BE with the scroll (which I agree with.) Now they added a penalty for subsequent casts but didn't remove the prior penalty. Its a bad skill now. It really is. And its going to hurt a lot of sorcs because there are really only a handful of decent Sorc abilities to begin with (which is why they all seem so samey.) It was ham-handed and over bearing and needs to be reversed.

But they won't reverse it because they don't know what they're doing.

TheWired

NordJitsu wrote: »

@TheWired‌

NB bugs were bad. All are in agreement. But they really didn't need buffs when things were working properly. Its a strong class that happened to be broken. And its not true that you need to be in Light Armor. You can make a nasty archetypal rogue with a bow, dual wield, and medium armor.

Templars have very few viable PvP specs and almost no specs (I can't think of any) that make them desirable in high end PvE. They aren't broken, they're just bad. That's the difference between them and NBs.

Sorcs have like a handful of good skills. Like you said, the entire Daedric Summoning line is complete trash. Two of the 5 Dark Magic skills are trash and one two are highly situatioal. The only really great Dark Magic skill is Crystal Fragments. Storm Calling is by far the best tree, but still has one stinker (Lightning Pool) that is only useful at all in dungeons if your tank is activating the synergy for you. Well I guess now Storm Calling has two stinkers as well (BE).

DKs literally have the best passives in the game and the best actives. The only bad skill they have is Inhale and its only bad because of the absurd target limit they added to it.

BE was fine. I am telling you that. Its been nerfed 4 times now. First they increased the cost. Then they added a magicka regen debuff after casting. Then they made it so you couldn't BE with the scroll (which I agree with.) Now they added a penalty for subsequent casts but didn't remove the prior penalty. Its a bad skill now. It really is. And its going to hurt a lot of sorcs because there are really only a handful of decent Sorc abilities to begin with (which is why they all seem so samey.) It was ham-handed and over bearing and needs to be reversed.

But they won't reverse it because they don't know what they're doing.

I agree with some of your points.
I will also agree that it is possible to make a decent PvP build using medium armor / DW / Bow. However, it is VERY hard to make similar builds worth anything in PvE /dungeon content because of the broken skills and melee not being on par with magic.

Also, I would like to add something to perspective: I have played a lot of mmorpg, and never in my life had I seen a skill that allows a player to just bolt out to infinity in PvP. Most PvP oriemted games that offers mages an escape skill will just teleport you a few meters behind or in front to avoid melee damage. BE should be working in that way and because of bad mechanics since launch, people have been used to it working otherwise.

NordJitsu

@TheWired‌

Well its a massive exaggeration to say you could Bolt into infinity. The highest number of Bolts I've ever seen with maxed out gear and magicka was 14 (with a pot.)

The real point is though that you could follow them. If you used a skill like Invasion or Stampede you could continually close the gap on them quite easily, since those skills will also move you around the terrain automatically and apply CC (once every 4 secs when immunity wears off.)

There were also abilities like Hasty Retreat, Path of Darkness, Retreating Maneuvers, that could be used to chase them down.

I've never seen the developers say anything like "it isn't meant to be used to travel" or anything like that. Fact of the matter is, there were counter play options available to those who wanted to learn how to use them.

I've suggested in other threads ways to make that counter play easier (increase the range of gap closers even more, make it so using BE removes any CC immunity from any source, ect.) so that less skilled players could also perform the counters (to bring it in line with the easy of casting BE.)

Nox_Aeterna

Nah , i agree it was broken , it should be a skill that allow the sorc to move away from melee range , not to run away from fights.

I think the current nerf was interesting , still , i would have went with 75% magicka increase for second cast and would NOT add the mana regen lock.

This away sorcs would be able to do the first jump with 0 penalty but would be able to spam it even less to get away.

Even with this nef , like many said , sorcs can still spam this to run heh.

TheWired

NordJitsu wrote: »

@TheWired‌

Well its a massive exaggeration to say you could Bolt into infinity. The highest number of Bolts I've ever seen with maxed out gear and magicka was 14 (with a pot.)

The real point is though that you could follow them. If you used a skill like Invasion or Stampede you could continually close the gap on them quite easily, since those skills will also move you around the terrain automatically and apply CC (once every 4 secs when immunity wears off.)

There were also abilities like Hasty Retreat, Path of Darkness, Retreating Maneuvers, that could be used to chase them down.

I've never seen the developers say anything like "it isn't meant to be used to travel" or anything like that. Fact of the matter is, there were counter play options available to those who wanted to learn how to use them.

I've suggested in other threads ways to make that counter play easier (increase the range of gap closers even more, make it so using BE removes any CC immunity from any source, ect.) so that less skilled players could also perform the counters (to bring it in line with the easy of casting BE.)

My DK uses 1h and shield as well as invade all the time and there is no way those abilities ever allowed you to catch up with a running sorcerer. Many other people have mentioned that before, the problem of BE is that you can just bolt anywhere you like without having a target while all other gap closers don't. I'm not talking about path of darkness from the NB because it will never let you catch up with sorcerers.

You are right when you say that the devs are fixing things in a weird way. I completely agree with you. That being said, its obvious that BE should not be so OP that you don't even need to use a horse to run long distance (what's the point of having them otherwise?)

The ONLY fix that makes sense for this skill is the following: forget about magicka increase, forget about mana regen nerf, put the skill back exactly the way it was before those 4 nerfs. Now, add an active target to the requirements so you can just bolt past someone or away from someone. You can spam it all you want, you can still stun people if you like, you can jump from player to player in mass PvP but you can't run away faster than a horse goes. All problems fixed.

Ezareth

You can't run faster than a max speed horse. I get chased down by players who know what they're doing all the time. People who say they never use a horse as a sorc are lying or just bad. How absurd. The only time I use Bolt Escape instead of a horse is when I'm stuck in combat (My Horse has been max speed for 2 weeks now). Oddly bolt escape seems to prolong the stuck in combat bug. If you're running anywhere in Cyrodiil you should be rotating Retreating Manuevers into your run rotation and you'll catch ANY sorc or outrun any of them on your team.

Why is it that other players think a class ability to escape combat (provided you keep 800-1000 mana always in reserve is so broken? Sorcs die A LOT. We're the squishiest class, so how does it make sense that the only ability we have to prevent our death by fleeing is effectively taken from us? Every class has one or two class-defining abilities. Right now we have negate magic and Bolt Escape. That's it. The rest of our abilities are very weak.

And whoever thinks Templar are weak in PVP is crazy. I've faced some Templar who can heal a group of 15 people in PVP and make it impossible for me to kill anyone, not to mention keeping eclipse on me if they want to make all of my damage abilities worthless. I don't think they should nerf Eclipse even though it completely takes me out of the fight and I have no counter to it other than to use what little stamina I have to break out of it. That's because it is something unique to Templar that makes them a powerful class.

I'm not as vehement as @NordJitsu‌ but at the end of the day I'm already enjoying my Sorc less and less in PVP and this nerf coupled with the host of other kneejerk PVP "balance" changes are making the PVP in this game very stale. Organized PVP is slowly turning into a game of everyone lump into balls, move as a group, AOE heal, and zerg down opposition and that is BORING AS HELL.

I'm not seeing anything coming out that is going to keep me renewing my subscription and the host of NEW bugs I've been experiencing along with these nerfs have made this game increasing unenjoyable. I sure ZOS realizes what they are doing with these rapid changes.

Craglorn introduced the broken ability bug that happens to me randomly 3-4 times a day while playing and It has seriously impacted me and my team in the game. There is nothing worse than losing a keep due to your negate magic not working and your team going in counting on you to drop it on top of them and the opposing DKs. Caltrops bug lasting for weeks and then this mercenary "Hotfix" that hotfixes nothing but the players who aren't exploiting broken Mercs. Constantly having to log in and out of Cyrodiil so you can repair walls and doors. Ending up in the beginning of Cyrodiil after relogging due to said bug. Broken doors making your keep impossible to enter. CONSTANTLY bugged Forward Camps. I once lost 8 forward camps in a single day. Weapon swapping delays causing deaths or miscasts. Endless combat bug. I swear I fight more bugs than players while playing this game and they're actually spending time and resources nerfing a class because it has an ability that is enjoyable to use?

If the devs want to make these changes and not give a well-defined and justified reason for doing so they're going to be looking for another job sooner than they'd like.

Mojomonkeyman

Nijjion wrote: »

It's kinda hard to take someone seriously when they have no prior experience to RvR even MMOs.

You have been told and it's been proven in other games that classes with superior mobility have big advantages in RvR games. The game should be equal. You're lucky that the nerf isn't incremental increase of 50% and just increases the cost once... it should be incremental as you really shouldn't be able to cast it more than 4 times.

Casting the ability 12+ times and then being able to get all your magicka back in like 2 seconds to cast it another 12 times to get insane mobility in a RvR game isn't balanced... it's far from it. You can't really make the excuse that DK can just tank damage as that's been nerfed now with ult gain and standard nerf... which were kinda big nerfs for DK...

It's not really that big of a nerf, instead of casting it 12times you will be able to cast it 7 times... 3-4 will get you out of most fights where people cant catch up.

If you need to cry here's something for you.

You`re really preaching the same prayer over and over hoping for enough noobs to believe what you say, because you try to make it sounds as if it was facts. Sadly, on mmo forums there will always be enough bad players around to give you "awesomes" and "agrees", because you give them nice little excuses for their issues ingame.

It`s kinda hart to take someone seriously who gives so much false information with such a serious face like you. You are wrong. You are a whiner. A GW2 roaming necromancer who had troubles versus thiefs cannot be taken serious, sorry. TeamQ top 50 EU anytime here, with both thief and necro.

Mobility is never an issue, when said mobility cannot kill you! I told you before, you have serious L2P issues, doesn`t matter how many RvR games you play/played before. Most people will just stay mediocre, even if they play thousands of hours.

But because of their huge playtime they think they must be good somehow, so they try to blame the game and make up philosophies like your "mobility rant" to cover up their inability to overcome plateaus skillwise.

Regards

Nijjion

@‌Mojomonkeyman

I say the same stuff because I believe in it... from my experience of how balance should be in RvR games.

Mobility is a funny with in RvR games it lets you survive and run back in maybe at a misfortunate time... so maybe mobility can kill.

Oh no I'm a whiner... so is OP so is everyone on here technically it seems. Why are Sorcs so entitled thinking they should be able to escape every fight they want? A blink isn't designed that way, if they do think think that then they are wrong.

Not going to go over everything again, there's no point we just swinging our *** around to see who's is bigger. Even if I was a Sorc I would agree it is overpowered... hell in Tera I played a Sorc than had a blink with 8 sec CD but would have a passive to refresh chance of 25%... that's kinda op to get twice or 3 times in a row as you got away... it wouldn't happen all the time of course but the rng was there for it to be possible.

I do believe gap closers need to be changed also when BE gets nerfed (not with the current nerf though). Zenimax should of designed the game differently so Sorcs didn't have the false hope and entitlement of being able to escape.

Anyway I'm pretty much done, like the change Zenimax is going will have to see how this is in combat. Now Sorcs will have to think and choose carefully when to use BE... well hopefully, that's how it should be.

Censorious

I'm a Sorc but I think Zos probably made the right call. The 'escape' bit of BE was a bit OP. No-one should be able to vanish over the horizon like that.

OTOH, there's a lot of nonsense (still) being talked about BE. The idea that it is some sort of all-purpose stun/damage/escape of terrifying power is nonsense.
It's a fairly mild, short disorient and does a small amount of damage if you get hit directly in the face. It's more spectacular than effective.

Teevesnacks

Think of this as a good thing, atleast if zos decide they need to buff your damage/survivability no one will complain about your escape mechanics

OkieDokie

NordJitsu wrote: »

NB bugs were bad. All are in agreement. But they really didn't need buffs when things were working properly. Its a strong class that happened to be broken. And its not true that you need to be in Light Armor. You can make a nasty archetypal rogue with a bow, dual wield, and medium armor.

Templars have very few viable PvP specs and almost no specs (I can't think of any) that make them desirable in high end PvE. They aren't broken, they're just bad. That's the difference between them and NBs.

Have you ever played through vr content with a NB? Honest question here, because testing in pvp is not the same.

jonal11_ESO

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

jonal11_ESO wrote: »

This is dumb, some fighter chases after a mage with bolt escape and cries nerf. It's not your job to chase down the Sorc, it's other Sorcs with bolt escape as well.

That is the worst logic I have ever heard in my life. I am not even going to explain why that is so terrible.

That's because you can't, l2p.

cfriedman71ub17_ESO

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Even with the Nerf, it's still by far the best PvP ability in the game. You have no idea what it's like to fight someone when they will always get away 100% of the time. I don't even engage Sorcs in a 1v1 because there is no point.

Also you can still Bolt 7-8 times before you run out of mana, and 10 if you pot. Anything more then 4 Bolt Escapes away and you are pretty much past the point of no return for a non-Sorc to ever catch up.

As a Sorc I do know what it is like to fight other classes that will get away 100% of the time. Those classes are anyone who gets into my melee range, but now i will get away 0% of the time. Unsub.

kasain

Ironicly I killed a v7 dubgeon boss with just bolt escape. This boss at start splut into two humanoids. Then she chases you with a sword. I couldnt bind kill one fast enough. So I ran east to west in the room, turn around bolt escape, run, turn repeat. First time I used it not for traveling purpose. Was cool.

cfriedman71ub17_ESO

I still have trouble understanding how how a skill named bolt ESCAPE was overpowered, because it let sorcs escape. Now if it killed everyone around them and then teleported them away i could see it, but it just was an escape.

Natjur

cfriedman71ub17_ESO wrote: »

I still have trouble understanding how how a skill named bolt ESCAPE was overpowered, because it let sorcs escape. Now if it killed everyone around them and then teleported them away i could see it, but it just was an escape.

If ESCAPE was all it did, then fine,

Bolt Escape
Cast Time: Instant / Self
Cost: 56 Magicka
Stun nearby enemies for 1.5 seconds.
Teleport 15m forward.
Morphs
Streak: Damage and disorient enemies by teleporting through them.
Ball of Lightning: Summons a spark for 15 seconds that absorbs incoming spells.

Take away the stun, damage and disorient/absorb incoming spells and make it just a pure teleport spell and no one would complain. Its currently a CC spell and a teleport.

Or keeps those and make is cost more (which is what they have done)

FegefeueR

wait wait teleport is fixed and sorcerer have to fight a little bit more fair now ??? QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

Venithar

Natjur wrote: »

Cost: 56 Magicka

WTB: 56 Magicka BE (cuz honestly at 56 cost, I am more then happy paying 50% more for it)

Natjur

Venithar wrote: »

Natjur wrote: »

Cost: 56 Magicka

WTB: 56 Magicka BE (cuz honestly at 56 cost, I am more then happy paying 50% more for it)

That at L1, so at LV12 its around 300 mana, or 450 on the second cast. Third cast is still 450 (not 675 like is should be) so its still cheap. Dev's already said it was never designed to be able to be cast more then 3 times in a row.

Venithar

Honestly, I'd be fine with the nerfs, if they change it so I heal everytime I cast it so I have an instant heal like every other class, or if they made it so I can tank 20+ people like DKs can when I cast it, or perhaps they can make it so I can cancel it's animation and cast it 3x all at once like NBs can with their skills.

Slantasiam

LameoveR wrote: »

"Bolt Escape fixes has ruined my dreams to become a Legendary 1-button PVP-killa :`("

just be a dk then you can 1 button kill and whine about people getting out of your range of the one button kill

SuperJChat

NordJitsu wrote: »

This ability now has TWO cool downs in a "no cool down" game. You "nerfed it into Oblivion," exactly what Firor said you wouldn't be doing.

You sir, are indeed ignorant of what a Cooldown is. According to your logic, a HoT is a cooldown, a DoT is a cooldown, any ability that buffs or debuffs for X seconds is a Cooldown.

gtfo. a "cooldown" means you can't cast the ability again within X seconds, at all. Not "casting again within X seconds has consequences".

If you are going to make an argument for something at least understand what you are arguing about before you cry wolf and whine like everyone you are complaining about

Asava

There's a majicka regen halt timer and now a majicka usage timer on one ability.

stuu

The nerf is overkill in my opinion. Every class has a stand out ability that sets it apart from the rest.

I don't think its fair a Templar has all those heals when the others don't!! NERF?
I don't think its fair a nightblade can go hidden and sneak away form a fight of jump on me to start one... NERF?
I don't think its fair a DK has reflect my spells on me, or chains to pull me too them. NERF?

No. Every class has its own attraction and every class attraction has several counters if you actually know how to play.

If you find yourself moaning about bolt escape you should find a new game and go play it.

Xsorus

For someone who says they don't use Bolt Escape anymore, Nord really goes out of his way to defend it *grin*

Ghenra

LoL and more LoL!!!

Sorcs crying because they were not OP after patch!!!

Hahahaha!

Niffo

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

For someone who says they don't use Bolt Escape anymore, Nord really goes out of his way to defend it *grin*

He just wants balance obviously. Being the only class that can engage and disengage from fights was perfectly balanced.