Bolt Escape is Useless and Sorc Survivability

Mystborn

Eclipse has (had?) a cost increase when you recast it. I know it used to for sure but I just checked the tooltip on esohead and it doesn't mention that at all - did they patch it so they got rid of the cost increase on multiple casts? If so when?

Aoifesan

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Fshober28b14_ESO‌

This ability now has TWO cool downs in a "no cool down" game. You "nerfed it into Oblivion," exactly what Firor said you wouldn't be doing.

I lost faith the moment I realized that I'd be limited to two bars with a total of 6 usable skills on each.

Worst UI/User interface design decision EVER. If I could do ten full abilities,10 times over, in a 2D MMO like UO 16 years ago. There is ZERO excuse for not being able to do it today.

NordJitsu

@Aoifesan‌

This combat system is generally a step forward, not a step back. Fewer ability slots is necessary for more build diversity, since it forces you to make tough choices. The smaller amount of skills (and "no cool downs") also makes the combat more action oriented since you use skills when you want, not based on a rotation.

Bringing things back on topic, I don't like the changes to BE because it is a step towards rotation based combat and away from letting me cast what I want to cast when I want to cast it.

Aoifesan

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Aoifesan‌

This combat system is generally a step forward, not a step back. Fewer ability slots is necessary for more build diversity, since it forces you to make tough choices. The smaller amount of skills (and "no cool downs") also makes the combat more action oriented since you use skills when you want, not based on a rotation.

Bringing things back on topic, I don't like the changes to BE because it is a step towards rotation based combat and away from letting me cast what I want to cast when I want to cast it.

I must be misunderstanding what people mean by a rotation, as to manage the finite resources of both mana and stamina for abilities, there is STILL a rotational use of skills on those two very limited bars. Having NO access to abilities you KNOW is about as much sense as Telling Joe Montana he can't do a slant pass to Jerry Rice because he loaded his hand off ball protection bar and his deep ball to John Taylor.

The rotation based combat and the 'action combat' you espouse here are both limited by the resource being available to use them. I can't cast what I NEED to cast many times because it's 'not on my bar'.

makong

Don't bother arguing Nord. The loud noobs always destroy the game. I, myself, have unsubbed. The game is on its way to death within 3 months of release (never seen this before). What a shame, had potential. This game will go free to play within a year. Mark my words.

I will say this though:

Limiting our ability to use any ability at any time is a major factor of this games death.

Want to know what killed this game?

IMMERSION: (single-handedly made me disgusted with this word. If I ever see another game spouting how "immersive" it is I'm going to buy a copy just to destroy it.)

LIMITED UI: Oh I need to make "choices?" Sorry, give me my abilities and I'll decide when and which ones to use and in what order. You limiting my ability to use any ability is insulting to my intelligence. Let me bind my keys, let me set up my own UI, and let me use all my abilities.

Low health pools: short fights = lame

Zerging: Encouraging zerging is horrible. But of course, the zerg wouldn't even understand what the hell I'm talking about.

If you disagree with me it's because you have no idea what you're talking about.

NordJitsu

@makong‌

Sad to hear man. I agree with many of the points you made. I've cancelled my subscription too, but I bought 3 months of game time, so I've still got until August to change my mind.

I'm hoping the Arenas do get implemented. I agree with you that this game had so much potential.

ZOS's problem is that they had a pretty great vision for the game, but they let a bunch of uninformed whiners ruin it (BE being just a small example out of many.)

I used to think it was great how well they listened to feedback. Now it seems like they can't distinguish between good and bad feedback so they just listen to everything (bypassing the starting zones should have been a red flag I guess.)

Yasha

It is still OP in pvp, will probably get nerfed again down the track.

NordJitsu

@Yasha‌

Its been nerfed 4 times:

1. Increased cost
2. Magicka regen penalty
3. Can't be used while carrying scroll
4. Increased cost if used again within 4 secs


Any more nerfs and it should probably be removed from the game and replaced with something else.

Atropos

This thread.... cannot tell if troll or serious?

NordJitsu

@Atropos‌

I think you meant to say you disagree.

Make an argument then; don't just post flame bait.

Atropos

You are saying an ability which instantly (no cast time) teleports you a considerable distance away from your current position without requiring a target WHILE also dealing damage and stunning nearby enemies that ALSO has no cooldown whatsoever and is spammable to the extent that any reasonably geared magicka-based sorcerer can use it back-to-back 8 or 9 times before running OOM is "useless" and "completely broken". This statement is so ludicrous that I only assumed that you were having a laugh at everyone's expense.

Devlinne

makong wrote: »

If you disagree with me it's because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah. best argument ever!
So everyone read it right?^^ if you disagree with the messiah of eso, YOU ARE WRONG!!! Now GET LOST with any opinion that ISN'T mine!!!
Lolzor!

I'm gonna use this line someday^^ EPIC laughs!

NordJitsu

@Atropos‌

The vast majority of skills in this game are equally spamable. Cast times are generally rare. Cool downs are non-existent in the game... or were supposed to be.

I may have been exaggerating a bit, but why not? That's the only thing that gets ZOS's attention. Someone else tried the well reasoned and "constructive" thing:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/955720

His thread gets ignored not only by ZOS, but by most players who are too lazy to read anything that isn't short and angry.

This nerf to BE hit really hard. Its dangerously close to a cool down, even if it isn't an exact hard cool down. You're now punished in two ways for using this skill multiple times in succession. No other ability in the game does that.

And again, the nerf hardly affects the targets of the complaints (people Bolting away from fights) and heavily punishes those who use the ability in active combat. Once again ZOS listened to feedback about a "problem" and entirely failed to adequately diagnose the source of the problem.

Making BE remove CC immunity (but leaving the skill itself alone) would have offered counter play options for people to use against Sorcs using BE to run away but would have avoided the effect that this nerf has had of discouraging the use of BE in active fighting and in making it feel like I cannot use the skills I want to use when I want to use them (which was promised when they said "no cooldowns.)

NordJitsu

Devlinne wrote: »

makong wrote: »

If you disagree with me it's because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah. best argument ever!
So everyone read it right?^^ if you disagree with the messiah of eso, YOU ARE WRONG!!! Now GET LOST with any opinion that ISN'T mine!!!
Lolzor!

I'm gonna use this line someday^^ EPIC laughs!

@Devlinne‌

Makong is one of the best PvPers in this game, period.

And btw, he doesn't play a Sorc. He plays a DK. So you can't blame "bias" for him disagreeing with the whiners.

He's just intelligent.

Nijjion

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Yasha‌

Its been nerfed 4 times:

1. Increased cost
2. Magicka regen penalty
3. Can't be used while carrying scroll
4. Increased cost if used again within 4 secs


Any more nerfs and it should probably be removed from the game and replaced with something else.

ESO doesn't have cooldowns so you have to nerf it in other ways. They haven't found the right balance yet and still have yet more work to do with the skill.

Who would of thought a blink ability with no CD would be hard to balance /s

Yasha

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Yasha‌

Its been nerfed 4 times:

1. Increased cost
2. Magicka regen penalty
3. Can't be used while carrying scroll
4. Increased cost if used again within 4 secs


Any more nerfs and it should probably be removed from the game and replaced with something else.

And its still OP, amazing skill eh?

Devlinne

NordJitsu wrote: »

Makong is one of the best PvPers in this game, period.

And btw, he doesn't play a Sorc. He plays a DK. So you can't blame "bias" for him disagreeing with the whiners.

He's just intelligent.

So.......he's the best cos...umm...YOU say he is?
Is this another one of those "if u disagree with me you are wrong" statements?^__^
Or is it more along the lines of "the vast majority does not know" he is the best?

You found a KINDRED spirit nord. Happy for you and makong. when's the wedding?^^

NordJitsu

@Devlinne‌

No. He is because he is. We're not the same faction, guild, ect. Its just a fact.

Maybe he'd be happy to show you before he leaves the game.

Drachdhar

Daethz wrote: »

To this threads Title.
SO? There are MANY usless spells in this game. DK has half a dozen of them.
Obsidian Shield? Completely USELESS, it wont even fully midigate one normal attack. Yeah totally worth it.

Bolt escape was rigged, got nerfed, now that its not better than every other spell the massive qq has begun, mabye this is a whole new world for sorcs, now you dont have a mandatory spell for every single spec.

Like DKs dont have mandatory skills... Dragon Blood, Dark Talons...
I cleared public dungeons with ease solo with just Block and Burning Talons as a DK, and a banner for bosses. And that was basically from lvl 6-7 to veteran ranks. Albeit, slightly changed vs the few flying critters. This was before the target limit, but 6(?) targets is still pretty much enough.
And Templars, basically spam the stabby spastic thing over and over, and thats it. Oh yeh, and a charge to get close enough to spam that.

BE... Cost increase, sure. Magicka Regen penalty on the other hand, makes no sense at all. One or the other. Both is kinda redundant. The first one punishes any playstyle using it for tactical advantage, not just the spammers. The second penalty punishes spammers. Both penalties makes it a bad skill, and what this game does not need is less actually great skills.

And it was far from impossible to catch BE spammers trying to escape, done it more than once as a NB even.

Artis

See nothing bad in punishing people who used BE in combat.
I once met a sorc in cyrodil. He would just spam that teleport thing, going back and forth through me. As you understand, you can't even rotate the camera quick enough or if you can, you can't really do anything to the target because next second it's behind you.

And he killed me. With this skill alone.
So I say, yeah, good nerf. Not good enough though, need to nerf it more.

Drachdhar

Dodge? Or learn to move your camera faster... anticipate. Just suggesting.

Or how is this different from getting chain stunned/CCed by DKs... Or chain KBed by Templars... Or sneak attacked by a NB or Bow Sorc?

I've gotten hits for over 2k, basically insta kill in PvP.

Artis

dodge from what? of course I was moving and trying to do something.
Don't you understand, that he can go behind my back immediately no matter what I did? I can't dodge behind him. He will see me no matter what I do and he will teleport. You can't do anything with this.
And that damage was ridiculous.

How is it different? You can be immune to CC after you break it once. You can use that mages guild skill to see invisible dudes. You can't do anything to stop sorcs.

Leaok

In its current state they should just remove BE. It is practically useless for escaping. If they intend it to be used as a combat ability I would much rather have something else.

Lets run some numbers.

BE moves you around 10m
The average cap closer moves you around 22m
So in order to possibly escape you would need to press the button three times.

Three cast of BE in its current form cost roughly 300 magicka for first cast and then , lets say for arguments sake only 450 magicka cost for the next two casts. Making it cost 1200 magicka for a chance to escape. Now at full legendary with Magicka enchants and food I have a around 2100 magicka. That is over half of a full magicka bar for an attempt to escape.

An attempt you say? Yes. In my experience a person with a gap closer gets off at least one after the escape attempt begins. If they get me after the first press of BE they would be 20m behind me after my third press being in range for another cap closer. If they closed the gap after the second press they would be even closer to me after a third press.

What this means is to guarantee that i'm out of range and actually escape. I need to press BE at least 4 times in a row. Well thats 1650 of my magicka.

Would I have this amount if I was actually fighting the person before I tried to escape? Nope

Would I have this amount if I was a stamina build. Absolutely not.

So when exactly would I have this amount of magicka needed to achieve this? Only if I ran as soon as attacked. What situations would this be useful? Pretty much only if someone was trying to gank me. In which case I wouldn't be in combat and could just hit stealth and blink twice to be out of detect range and not have to press 4 times to get away.

Kingslayer

Way to nerf stamina based sorcs even further

SuperJChat

Drachdhar wrote: »

Dodge? Or learn to move your camera faster... anticipate. Just suggesting.

Or how is this different from getting chain stunned/CCed by DKs... Or chain KBed by Templars... Or sneak attacked by a NB or Bow Sorc?

I've gotten hits for over 2k, basically insta kill in PvP.

Dk's are built with great CC's. Templars have lots of knockbacks yes, But are generally more useful as a healer. Nightblades are an Assassin/Stealth based class.

So your argument, based on what you have said for the other classes, is that Sorc should be a class that is really good at running away?

Please explain.

First of all, Everyone knows that The most dangerous Sorcs don't have BE slotted. Btw by "dangerous" I mean able to 1v1 someone without needing a break to regen, AKA Bolt Escape away and regen while plotting how you will kill them the next time.

How many Sorcs do you think use BE in Vet Dungeons? Trials? Basically, BE is not that useful of a skill, and very few "successful builds" even consider BE.

Try making a build that doesn't use BE and see if you do any better in PvP or PvE.

At the end of the day it isn't a Nerf, so much as a Buff, cause now people will realize how useless this skill is and won't even slot it anymore.

SuperJChat

bbevier_ESO wrote: »

BE moves you around 10m
The average gap closer moves you around 22m
So in order to possibly escape you would need to press the button three times.

Try Mathing better, your Example here indicates that:

• The Sorc is standing directly on top of the Attacking player, instead of keeping a distance like most sorcs do
• The Attacking player is able to pull of the gap closer instantly (predicting the Sorcs BE using the players psychic powers)
• There is no Terrain or objects that the Sorc can BE behind

See why your Example is flimsy and would be thrown out by scholars everywhere?

Leaok

SuperJChat wrote: »

Try Mathing better, your Example here indicates that:

• The Sorc is standing directly on top of the Attacking player, instead of keeping a distance like most sorcs do
• The Attacking player is able to pull of the gap closer instantly (predicting the Sorcs BE using the players psychic powers)
• There is no Terrain or objects that the Sorc can BE behind

See why your Example is flimsy and would be thrown out by scholars everywhere?

Why would one use BE in the first place if you were not on them? If you are at max range and i'm nuking you down there is no reason to escape unless I just wanted to avoid fighting all together which in case I would have just stealthed not BE'd away. Now If I started nuking you down and realized I couldnt kill you an attempted to get away I wouldn't have the magicka to do so which reinforces the statement that in its current form BE is useless and I would rather have a different ability.

You don't need psychic powers. there is a delay between key presses which allows you to press your gap closer if not after the first easily before the second.

so in order to make it overpowered a sorc needs to be able to blink twice to get behind an object so he can prevent a gap closer?

So no I don't see why my example is flimsy. What I see is a person who obviously just wants to cry nerf without actually attempting to think things through.

Problem now days is everyone tries to balance in 1v1 situation but the game is a team game. This is reinforced with the AoE caps that they intend this game to be zerg vs zerg.

You want to deal with tanky front lines you bring you own tanks. If you want to survive as long as a group with healers you bring your own healers. If you absolutely must catch that person running from a fight. Perhaps bring a sorc?

Personally I would rather they just remove the ability and give us something else. That way people would stop whining bout how over powered running from a fight is. Hell give Sorc something similar to one of the other classes defining skills that way at least more than one class has it and the cries for nerf will be less. Thats what everyone wants right???

NordJitsu

@bbevier_ESO‌


They don't even need to wait for between key presses. If you have the person tab targeted and just aim at the box, you'll hit them even while they are bolting.

makong

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Devlinne‌

No. He is because he is. We're not the same faction, guild, ect. Its just a fact.

Maybe he'd be happy to show you before he leaves the game.

Thanks Nord for defending me but I don't have anything to prove to anyone. My points are valid because I've been right about this game nearly 100% of the time. The only times I've been wrong is because I wouldn't believe ZOS would be stupid enough to implement some of the stuff they did.

Anyway, I'm not subbed and wouldn't sub back up just to completely assjam some newb who thinks they know better.

Kiwi

i love it when people actually have to play the game like everyone else instead of relying on an OP one trick pony to win, especially after theyve been relying on it for so long.

same goes for those who stealth throu 40% of the game then get their arse handed to them by the first thing that spots them because they have no idea how to fight what theyve been sneaking past for so long

then theres those who charged ahead in a huge pack reaping every exploit for max XP before it gets fixed or nerfed then come back and wonder why its all so hard and takes so long

reality check 101