Be VERY carefull what you wish for

Vlaxitov

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Lodestar

Jeremy wrote: »

The MMORPG market is already flooded with easy games. For Elder Scrolls to be successful long-term it has to distinguish itself from the competition. Otherwise it risks being like the other half dozen games before it that tried and failed to out-wow WoW as it's often called.

So just making the game easier does not always mean more successful. Sometimes it's more profitable to find a niche of players and cater exclusively to them over a long period of time. Especially if it wants to remain on a subscription-based model.

If you try to please everyone often-times you will end up pleasing no one.

Yes, I completely agree with you. And that is why we have a rising number of good looking Kickstarter games, some of them have interesting MMOs, that while not all appeal to me, I can respect.

You go into your average city now and so so much corporatised uniformity, with people looking to focus groups to try and aim to as many people as they can. Lets, keep it old but new, big but small. It's for these people, AND these people. Stores looking so much like each other and trained by the same people, identity is thrown out the window (which were also likely designed by some marketing company). You end up with so much, spread so thin, it has no real passion you can identify with. And part of the reason, I think no one goes to the high street as much now.

It is an increasing factor in modern life. Time was, you could look at someone, and tell they were from out of town, by what they were wearing. People can now enter international borders and not look any different to a local. Even so called alternative lifestyles of fashion, music and entertainment is heavily invested in and controlled by big corporations. Which brings us to where we are here.

I firmly believe we are starting to wake slowly from this slumber, and go our own way. Waxing and waning at times, but we are realising big business does not have what we want. Just elements of it next to elements of others.

I don't question this, and welcome people expressing themselves, and doing their own thing. What I question is the wisdom of incorporating so much of the developers of ESO's visions, in the way they have, on a game that carries the Elder Scrolls banner, and marketing it to them.

waitingmk01b14_ESO

This is a "hardcore" game? All this time I've just been playing and having fun... I had no idea!

Jeremy

Lodestar wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The MMORPG market is already flooded with easy games. For Elder Scrolls to be successful long-term it has to distinguish itself from the competition. Otherwise it risks being like the other half dozen games before it that tried and failed to out-wow WoW as it's often called.

So just making the game easier does not always mean more successful. Sometimes it's more profitable to find a niche of players and cater exclusively to them over a long period of time. Especially if it wants to remain on a subscription-based model.

If you try to please everyone often-times you will end up pleasing no one.

Yes, I completely agree with you. And that is why we have a rising number of good looking Kickstarter games, some of them have interesting MMOs, that while not all appeal to me, I can respect.

You go into your average city now and so so much corporatised uniformity, with people looking to focus groups to try and aim to as many people as they can. Lets, keep it old but new, big but small. It's for these people, AND these people. Stores looking so much like each other and trained by the same people, identity is thrown out the window (which were also likely designed by some marketing company). You end up with so much, spread so thin, it has no real passion you can identify with. And part of the reason, I think no one goes to the high street as much now.

It is an increasing factor in modern life. Time was, you could look at someone, and tell they were from out of town, by what they were wearing. People can now enter international borders and not look any different to a local. Even so called alternative lifestyles of fashion, music and entertainment is heavily invested in and controlled by big corporations. Which brings us to where we are here.

I firmly believe we are starting to wake slowly from this slumber, and go our own way. Waxing and waning at times, but we are realising big business does not have what we want. Just elements of it next to elements of others.

I don't question this, and welcome people expressing themselves, and doing their own thing. What I question is the wisdom of incorporating so much of the developers of ESO's visions, in the way they have, on a game that carries the Elder Scrolls banner, and marketing it to them.

I believe your post to be a profound observation that the convenience of conformity often comes at the expense of our individuality. It can also discourage original thinking - which is probably why this genre has seen so little innovation in the last 10 years.

This is my first Elder Scrolls game. So I lack perspective on your final point. All I can say is that I appreciate they are doing things differently. I was getting so tired of the typical MMO mold, and would hate to see this game slide into that hole.

Guppet

Lodestar wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The MMORPG market is already flooded with easy games. For Elder Scrolls to be successful long-term it has to distinguish itself from the competition. Otherwise it risks being like the other half dozen games before it that tried and failed to out-wow WoW as it's often called.

So just making the game easier does not always mean more successful. Sometimes it's more profitable to find a niche of players and cater exclusively to them over a long period of time. Especially if it wants to remain on a subscription-based model.

If you try to please everyone often-times you will end up pleasing no one.

Yes, I completely agree with you. And that is why we have a rising number of good looking Kickstarter games, some of them have interesting MMOs, that while not all appeal to me, I can respect.

You go into your average city now and so so much corporatised uniformity, with people looking to focus groups to try and aim to as many people as they can. Lets, keep it old but new, big but small. It's for these people, AND these people. Stores looking so much like each other and trained by the same people, identity is thrown out the window (which were also likely designed by some marketing company). You end up with so much, spread so thin, it has no real passion you can identify with. And part of the reason, I think no one goes to the high street as much now.

It is an increasing factor in modern life. Time was, you could look at someone, and tell they were from out of town, by what they were wearing. People can now enter international borders and not look any different to a local. Even so called alternative lifestyles of fashion, music and entertainment is heavily invested in and controlled by big corporations. Which brings us to where we are here.

I firmly believe we are starting to wake slowly from this slumber, and go our own way. Waxing and waning at times, but we are realising big business does not have what we want. Just elements of it next to elements of others.

I don't question this, and welcome people expressing themselves, and doing their own thing. What I question is the wisdom of incorporating so much of the developers of ESO's visions, in the way they have, on a game that carries the Elder Scrolls banner, and marketing it to them.

If you don't follow the standard mould, you are going to be niche. In this day and age if you are going to be niche, you need to be totally top end to survive.

Look at your high streets, it's now all cheap stores, very much like each other, the only exceptions are the very expensive shops.

If ESO wants to be niche, it needs to become high quality, with a high price tag, or it's going to fail. Either that or it accepts the demands of mainstream and adapts accordingly (i.e. easier).

Bangstin

I wish for three more wishes.

Vlaxitov

Vlaxitov wrote: »

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Not flaming, I'm in all seriousness asking Cogo to stop saturating these forums with HUGE WALLS OF TEXT as though this is his personal blog page and were all adoring fans. If you would just add an ignore user function to the forums I wouldn't have to ask. This was an example of that and its far from his longest post. Come on..

Cogo wrote: »

I think its also a matter how you see your character.

For example, in wow, very few people even bothered what race they where. the only thing they where interested in, was the racial trait.

ESO is the opposite. Choose what feels right for you. A night blade high elf that wants to tank? Erhm....maybe not the best compination if you think in numbers and effects, but thats not what this game is about. YOU build what YOU feel is right for you. Whatever that may be.

And the magic wonderful feature is....nothing is "the correct" thing.

The idea is to choose a look, lore, story, build, abilties that you find interesting and you want to build on.

Sure, it matters how good a skill is, but this is a Skill based MMO. And even if ESO is a new type of MMO, constant balancing and even MORE skills that we do not know about will happen. So even if what you pick and want to do, is by the number crushers "the worst", it matters less, because you might find a build that your personal skill is very good at. Or you do like me and pick something completely useless, hehe. But thats how we learn?

I dont know how many times from alot of different managers from Zenimax who said, the choice whats best is ONLY up to you.

I might be wrong, but I know there are people who only are interested in the best possible setup. Of course, we want to get better.

But, in ESO, even "the best" skills and build, mght be wrong for a specific situation or a persons own skill and playstyle?

I look at skill this way. ALL of em are equaly good. they just do different things. I do keep en eye out for stuff that looks to good to be true, and keep away from that until I know more. An example of that is my very early decission not to be either a vampire or a warewolf, because I didnt know the good or the bad stuff.

SO, I pick after my playstyle and I do have a few skills, including 1 ultimate that I barely use. But this I learned by playing and adapting to whatever situation I was in

Very cool if you ask me. But for someone who wants to pick 100% correct, I dont think any one those will be happy cause even if they are "perfect", that can change with new gear, other skills, encounters that isnt so effective even if you are "perfect".

blah blah. Pick your skills as you feel is right for you. I also rely on advice from friends and guild members.

Took me quite a while before they convinced me to pick keen eye to see ores easier and hirelings which I saw as pretty much useless......they are one of my most important part in my provisioning and blacksmithing,

Here is what it could have been just by using a more correct format.

Cogo wrote: »

I think its also a matter how you see your character. For example, in wow, very few people even bothered what race they where. the only thing they where interested in, was the racial trait. ESO is the opposite. Choose what feels right for you. A night blade high elf that wants to tank? Erhm....maybe not the best compination if you think in numbers and effects, but thats not what this game is about. YOU build what YOU feel is right for you. Whatever that may be.

And the magic wonderful feature is....nothing is "the correct" thing. The idea is to choose a look, lore, story, build, abilties that you find interesting and you want to build on. Sure, it matters how good a skill is, but this is a Skill based MMO. And even if ESO is a new type of MMO, constant balancing and even MORE skills that we do not know about will happen. So even if what you pick and want to do, is by the number crushers "the worst", it matters less, because you might find a build that your personal skill is very good at. Or you do like me and pick something completely useless, hehe. But thats how we learn?

I dont know how many times from alot of different managers from Zenimax who said, the choice whats best is ONLY up to you. I might be wrong, but I know there are people who only are interested in the best possible setup. Of course, we want to get better. But, in ESO, even "the best" skills and build, mght be wrong for a specific situation or a persons own skill and playstyle?

I look at skill this way. ALL of em are equaly good. they just do different things. I do keep en eye out for stuff that looks to good to be true, and keep away from that until I know more. An example of that is my very early decission not to be either a vampire or a warewolf, because I didnt know the good or the bad stuff.

SO, I pick after my playstyle and I do have a few skills, including 1 ultimate that I barely use. But this I learned by playing and adapting to whatever situation I was in. Very cool if you ask me. But for someone who wants to pick 100% correct, I dont think any one those will be happy cause even if they are "perfect", that can change with new gear, other skills, encounters that isnt so effective even if you are "perfect".

blah blah. Pick your skills as you feel is right for you. I also rely on advice from friends and guild members. Took me quite a while before they convinced me to pick keen eye to see ores easier and hirelings which I saw as pretty much useless......they are one of my most important part in my provisioning and blacksmithing,

Even then the sheer volume of his posts are absolutely obscene. We really really need an ignore user function in these forums. Its not flaming, its the truth.

Cogo

Vlaxitov wrote: »

Vlaxitov wrote: »

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Not flaming, I'm in all seriousness asking Cogo to stop saturating these forums with HUGE WALLS OF TEXT as though this is his personal blog page and were all adoring fans. If you would just add an ignore user function to the forums I wouldn't have to ask. This was an example of that and its far from his longest post. Come on..


Here is what it could have been just by using a more correct format.

Cogo wrote: »

I think its also a matter how you see your character. For example, in wow, very few people even bothered what race they where. the only thing they where interested in, was the racial trait. ESO is the opposite. Choose what feels right for you. A night blade high elf that wants to tank? Erhm....maybe not the best compination if you think in numbers and effects, but thats not what this game is about. YOU build what YOU feel is right for you. Whatever that may be.

And the magic wonderful feature is....nothing is "the correct" thing. The idea is to choose a look, lore, story, build, abilties that you find interesting and you want to build on. Sure, it matters how good a skill is, but this is a Skill based MMO. And even if ESO is a new type of MMO, constant balancing and even MORE skills that we do not know about will happen. So even if what you pick and want to do, is by the number crushers "the worst", it matters less, because you might find a build that your personal skill is very good at. Or you do like me and pick something completely useless, hehe. But thats how we learn?

I dont know how many times from alot of different managers from Zenimax who said, the choice whats best is ONLY up to you. I might be wrong, but I know there are people who only are interested in the best possible setup. Of course, we want to get better. But, in ESO, even "the best" skills and build, mght be wrong for a specific situation or a persons own skill and playstyle?

I look at skill this way. ALL of em are equaly good. they just do different things. I do keep en eye out for stuff that looks to good to be true, and keep away from that until I know more. An example of that is my very early decission not to be either a vampire or a warewolf, because I didnt know the good or the bad stuff.

SO, I pick after my playstyle and I do have a few skills, including 1 ultimate that I barely use. But this I learned by playing and adapting to whatever situation I was in. Very cool if you ask me. But for someone who wants to pick 100% correct, I dont think any one those will be happy cause even if they are "perfect", that can change with new gear, other skills, encounters that isnt so effective even if you are "perfect".

blah blah. Pick your skills as you feel is right for you. I also rely on advice from friends and guild members. Took me quite a while before they convinced me to pick keen eye to see ores easier and hirelings which I saw as pretty much useless......they are one of my most important part in my provisioning and blacksmithing,

Even then the sheer volume of his posts are absolutely obscene. We really really need an ignore user function in these forums. Its not flaming, its the truth.

Look, I have no wish to upset or being annoying to anyone. English is not my first language. And add to that, you are right, that I write to much to get my point across. This is not the first time I've heard this in several places in my life.

First, Thank you for showing me how I can, as you say, in a better way express my opinion, be part of the discussion and sometimes get ideas from others who others can find my view interesting. I wish I had your ability to do that.

I am a champion for free speech, whatever your views are, you have the same right as anyone to say it.

I think you are not aware, that making a statement, both written and spoken, has to do with a person skill in this, and maybe in my case, intellect.

Your very good rephrasing of my post...I really like! And I am trying to learn to be better at that. But you must consider that some people are not as good at others in specific things. I am using myself to not offend anyone, but it could also be that I am less intelligent then you?

However, I do want to comment on "Even then the sheer volume of his posts are absolutely obscene"

The rules states you are not allowed to spam. A moderator are free to correct me, but sir, I am not spamming, I am simply very interesting in ESO and what people think about different types of subjects.

Are you seriously telling me I am not allowed to enter those discussions I find interesting, and have to keep myself to post once a day?

Even though it wasn't very pleasant to read your answers to me, I took in that I need to try to make smaller post, in a better way, to get in all the information/responses and suggestions I can. I am working on that sir.

Sakiri

Lovely wrote: »

They did hard dungeons in WoW a while back. I loved them.

I saw a lot of people in my guild struggling for a full day to finish one (for the reward). Hour-long queues because tanks did not want to queue up and failing continuously, people dropping, so on and so forth.

The only ones who didn't have issues was us (the raiders) who had our premade groups to do things with. They were great fun and didn't seem hard at all.

Unfortunately, we were just 12. The guild had 200 more people who seemed to struggle. I noticed people don't like to struggle in games.

So... yeah, dungeons are easy. But there's other type of content that's harder.


Anyway, my point: there should be content both easy and hard. Some things should be easier (especially things that everyone *needs* to do, like questing). Some harder.

You have no idea how many of those farking groups my healer CARRIED through.

I had group invites CONSTANTLY because I could carry stupid through Grim Batol. It was ridiculous.

By "ridiculous" I mean "ridiculous that the healer can carry that much terrible.

Edit:

Forgot that Ghostcrawler's "Wow, dungeons are hard!" blog in response to the complaints about said Cata release heroics, and then the troll heroics difficulty, is one of the things that caused an exodus.

And then a hell of a lot of nerfing as damage control.

And then later, Greg leaving the company in MoP. Many of us don't think that was by choice, but rather "Please leave, you're ruining our subscriber numbers."

KerinKor

Catflinger wrote: »

jimdove wrote: »

EVE online has survived and is flourishing. And it is about the most hardcore game, not just mmo, that one can play.

I wouldn't say that EVE is "flourishing". It does well enough that it has been able to remain a subscription-based game, but only just barely. It doesn't have more than about 375,000 - 500,000 subs, and nearly all of those are multiples, so we can estimate that it likely has less than 200,000 unique people playing the game, with multiple accounts. EVE has a terrible time retaining new players because of its brutal learning curve and for the other obvious reasons. So no, that game is a pretty bad example.

LOL, how to make something fit an agenda.

Who cares how many play it? Fact is it has a sub. base that is sustaining it and THAT is all that matters. Flourishing is clearly open to debate as to what it means but the fact is EVE is still going and shows not the slightest sign of ending.

Yes, the turnover is high, that's entirely unsurprising because it's an MMO for masochists, and it a clear example of how relatively small the 'hardcore' population of players is, however it's far from a "pretty bad example" of what's being discussed here no matter how you try to spin it.

Cogo

Sakiri wrote: »

You have no idea how many of those farking groups my healer CARRIED through.

I had group invites CONSTANTLY because I could carry stupid through Grim Batol. It was ridiculous.

By "ridiculous" I mean "ridiculous that the healer can carry that much terrible.

Edit:

Forgot that Ghostcrawler's "Wow, dungeons are hard!" blog in response to the complaints about said Cata release heroics, and then the troll heroics difficulty, is one of the things that caused an exodus.

And then a hell of a lot of nerfing as damage control.

And then later, Greg leaving the company in MoP. Many of us don't think that was by choice, but rather "Please leave, you're ruining our subscriber numbers."

This is another of my many reasons why I am so liking ESO. "Carrying" someone even through lvl 10-50 instances not only is less possibly, but in some cases, it isnt possible, because of the way ESO designed the AI/Bosses/Events/teamwork, if one person sits back and dont do much....some encounters gets preeeeeety hard, if not outright impossible to complete.

And I am speaking of instances in your level range.

Also, even though I have not been to the new zone for high levelers. What I have heard is that it is a VERY hard zone, not just dungeons, instances, trials and the raid, but only to poke your head in there and explore around.

This is more and more making ESO the open world choice they are building, and you simply have to be skilled or even having a proper group with you to do anything there. GREAT!

Unless you guessed it, Your point of its being so stupid to make content that allowed someone to be "carried", is something I agree with and been very annoyed with all through WoW (I started wow when they released)

I accepted it though, since my thinking of an MMO is Everquest style, I had to accept that WoW was not Everquest.

And the constant nerfing of dungeons, bosses and mobs was something I never understood, BUT, the vast majority of WoW LOVED it, because now they could do something they couldnt before.

I have been for years curious howcome people dont look at themselves and how they can improve? The "solution" has always been to nerf the encounters and buff the players.

ESO have not done this more the "Doisha" and the latest boost in EXP in Crodiil.
It looks good! I hope they keep this game skill/teamwork and own skill based, and not nerf to make stuff "easy".

isengrimb16_ESO

I like ESO forcing me to cowboy up and learn to play computer games properly. I mean, you can't even play Space Invaders without dodging, right?

And I can do it during the solo quests, and end-quest bosses. I don't need to go through the humiliation of filling out an application for to join a raid group. I won't even fill out a job application any more. My line is - do you want me to do your work for you, or not? If not, I'll just walk away now." Even if my pension was cut off, and I was forced back into the ratrace, that would still be my attitude, because I know that applications from people as pale as me just get thrown in the garbage can here in Canada. Plus I'm old, and employers want kids for some damn reason.

ESO is not "hard", but it's not snooze-mode either (unless you're some genuine uberleet who can pick up any game and beat it hands-down. If you are, hats off to you, but please don't expect me to play games geared for your level; I have no problem, though, with games existing just for you.)

I've been surprising myself in this game, I've been able to achieve things I never thought I could. I did the Dark Mane thing this morning. He killed me once, yes, but that just let me see how he fights. The second attempt was much easier, and successful, once I knew how to fight him and his doopy panther adds. I just used the same strat I use on harvesters - get up close, hit Fan of Knives, and stab away with Killer's Blade. If I run out of mana, then draining shot to push the B back, etc etc etc. I usually don't need to resort to draining shot once I use Fan and my Ultimate though.

I like being able to/having to sneak, I like being forced to double tap or roll dodge when I see red around or near me. I like being comfy playing in first person here, which is impossible in WoW (tried it on my chua in Wildstar - it really sucks having to look up to see knees.) I like learning well enough, when there's something to sink my teeth into. WoW was just cotton candy.

And carrying? Hah. One of the last LFRs I was in, our group had some heroic raider who was slumming, and thought he could snooze through the whole thing. He was man enough to admit he was surprised that he couldn't do that, and that it was harder than he was led to believe by forum whining. After that, he picked up his socks, and we all did fine.

If you're going to join a group, at least try to be part that group, geez.

And yes, good people still exist who will deign to explain things to ubernoobies.

Sakiri

Cogo wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

You have no idea how many of those farking groups my healer CARRIED through.

I had group invites CONSTANTLY because I could carry stupid through Grim Batol. It was ridiculous.

By "ridiculous" I mean "ridiculous that the healer can carry that much terrible.

Edit:

Forgot that Ghostcrawler's "Wow, dungeons are hard!" blog in response to the complaints about said Cata release heroics, and then the troll heroics difficulty, is one of the things that caused an exodus.

And then a hell of a lot of nerfing as damage control.

And then later, Greg leaving the company in MoP. Many of us don't think that was by choice, but rather "Please leave, you're ruining our subscriber numbers."

This is another of my many reasons why I am so liking ESO. "Carrying" someone even through lvl 10-50 instances not only is less possibly, but in some cases, it isnt possible, because of the way ESO designed the AI/Bosses/Events/teamwork, if one person sits back and dont do much....some encounters gets preeeeeety hard, if not outright impossible to complete.

And I am speaking of instances in your level range.

Also, even though I have not been to the new zone for high levelers. What I have heard is that it is a VERY hard zone, not just dungeons, instances, trials and the raid, but only to poke your head in there and explore around.

This is more and more making ESO the open world choice they are building, and you simply have to be skilled or even having a proper group with you to do anything there. GREAT!

Unless you guessed it, Your point of its being so stupid to make content that allowed someone to be "carried", is something I agree with and been very annoyed with all through WoW (I started wow when they released)

I accepted it though, since my thinking of an MMO is Everquest style, I had to accept that WoW was not Everquest.

And the constant nerfing of dungeons, bosses and mobs was something I never understood, BUT, the vast majority of WoW LOVED it, because now they could do something they couldnt before.

I have been for years curious howcome people dont look at themselves and how they can improve? The "solution" has always been to nerf the encounters and buff the players.

ESO have not done this more the "Doisha" and the latest boost in EXP in Crodiil.
It looks good! I hope they keep this game skill/teamwork and own skill based, and not nerf to make stuff "easy".

I played WoW *before* release.

Even then, good healers could carry anything. Almost always. A few higher tier raid instances, not so much, but in group content? One of my favorite memories from the original WoW was watching my then boyfriend on his druid over his shoulder healing undead Strat on his druid. The HP bars spiking because some arsehat pulled four groups. BY HIMSELF, because the other healers quickly ate pavement(was a 10 man group).

My most favorite series of dungeon runs however was healing heroic Halls of Reflection as Elemental on my shaman, with a fury warrior tanking. Can't do that now.

That same elemental shaman was the last Orc standing on a 10 man Tribute to Insanity run. Tank was the last one up, reincarnate, heal his ass. Boss dies as the tank dies and I'm the last one up. GG.

If I wanted challenge there, I made it myself. I have huge problems with some of the challenge in this game, as it was marketed for the TES players as well as the MMO players. Most of the TES players I know run with the slider on "I suck" because they don't want challenge, they want RPG immersion. I personally roll Skyrim on Master until I get to Whiterun and buy a few things, and then Legendary the rest of it. I don't craft. Everything I use is bought or found. THAT is a challenge. I'm *not* the norm.

My friends list is mostly empty lately. One guy complained heavily after the motif/recipe drop nerf because he's a recipe completionist and hasn't logged in in weeks.

One was a real MMO noob that liked to ask for advice. Hasn't logged in in weeks.

One was a guy I met in Shadowfen zone chat, talking about random stuff. Hasn't logged in in over a week.

My friend that came with me from EQ2 can't complete Halls of Torment at 43. He spends more time harvesting and looking for chests, waiting for the quests to be nerfed into Oblivion and constantly kvetching about how Zenimax and the reddit community(he hates these forums) don't seem to want "bads" playing the game and he's starting to detest the community more and more because he's never experienced this elsewhere(he's also never played WoW, but at least over there I can carry him). His reaction time is bad, coupled with slow internet and being in Sweden he has a bit of latency inherent there. He's a clicker by default and has had trouble adjusting to hotkeys instead. He doesn't find learning mechanics to be "fun" at all. Period. He just wants to kill things, loot them, experience the RPG part of it.

If he goes, I go. And I've been a supporter of this thing since beta. Through the bugs. Through the bad reviews. Which, btw, are so bad that NONE of my other friends want to come here.

I don't find VR content to be "hard". I find it to be an incredibly boring slogfest. I don't play games to have a boring slogfest.

The original EQ was a boring slogfest, too, but the only reason many folks played it fell into two groups: Friends and "no other game out there but they liked the concept so they gave it a shot". There was a reason WoW was popular. It's population peak was during Wrath of the Lich King, which was arguably the easiest the game ever was. Every raid was fully accessible and completed by pugs regularly. Hell, H ICC was cleared up to Saurfang regularly.

And the main reason it's declining isn't the ease of content. It's it's age. 10 years old almost. Its shelf life is starting to be over. Anyone that thinks a game will be in it's prime forever is delusional. Every product has a shelf life. Even video games.

Sakiri

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

I like ESO forcing me to cowboy up and learn to play computer games properly. I mean, you can't even play Space Invaders without dodging, right?

And I can do it during the solo quests, and end-quest bosses. I don't need to go through the humiliation of filling out an application for to join a raid group. I won't even fill out a job application any more. My line is - do you want me to do your work for you, or not? If not, I'll just walk away now." Even if my pension was cut off, and I was forced back into the ratrace, that would still be my attitude, because I know that applications from people as pale as me just get thrown in the garbage can here in Canada. Plus I'm old, and employers want kids for some damn reason.

ESO is not "hard", but it's not snooze-mode either (unless you're some genuine uberleet who can pick up any game and beat it hands-down. If you are, hats off to you, but please don't expect me to play games geared for your level; I have no problem, though, with games existing just for you.)

I've been surprising myself in this game, I've been able to achieve things I never thought I could. I did the Dark Mane thing this morning. He killed me once, yes, but that just let me see how he fights. The second attempt was much easier, and successful, once I knew how to fight him and his doopy panther adds. I just used the same strat I use on harvesters - get up close, hit Fan of Knives, and stab away with Killer's Blade. If I run out of mana, then draining shot to push the B back, etc etc etc. I usually don't need to resort to draining shot once I use Fan and my Ultimate though.

I like being able to/having to sneak, I like being forced to double tap or roll dodge when I see red around or near me. I like being comfy playing in first person here, which is impossible in WoW (tried it on my chua in Wildstar - it really sucks having to look up to see knees.) I like learning well enough, when there's something to sink my teeth into. WoW was just cotton candy.

And carrying? Hah. One of the last LFRs I was in, our group had some heroic raider who was slumming, and thought he could snooze through the whole thing. He was man enough to admit he was surprised that he couldn't do that, and that it was harder than he was led to believe by forum whining. After that, he picked up his socks, and we all did fine.

If you're going to join a group, at least try to be part that group, geez.

And yes, good people still exist who will deign to explain things to ubernoobies.

I've been in many a LFR in which I was the only healer worth a damn.

Sadly.

I'm a masochist I think.

Let me guess, the fight he was having trouble on was Lei Shen?

That's the one that *still* kills groups.

And Nazgrim. Because people don't know what "stop dps" means.

Lodestar

KerinKor wrote: »

LOL, how to make something fit an agenda.

Who cares how many play it? Fact is it has a sub. base that is sustaining it and THAT is all that matters. Flourishing is clearly open to debate as to what it means but the fact is EVE is still going and shows not the slightest sign of ending.

Yes, the turnover is high, that's entirely unsurprising because it's an MMO for masochists, and it a clear example of how relatively small the 'hardcore' population of players is, however it's far from a "pretty bad example" of what's being discussed here no matter how you try to spin it.

I missed the comment you quoted in this response. But, you said all I would have said. Only I would have added, where is the proof all these accounts are multiple ones anyway?

It may occur frequently, but the notion it is the norm I strongly challenge.

Vlaxitov

Cogo wrote: »

Vlaxitov wrote: »

Vlaxitov wrote: »

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Not flaming, I'm in all seriousness asking Cogo to stop saturating these forums with HUGE WALLS OF TEXT as though this is his personal blog page and were all adoring fans. If you would just add an ignore user function to the forums I wouldn't have to ask. This was an example of that and its far from his longest post. Come on..


Here is what it could have been just by using a more correct format.

Cogo wrote: »

I think its also a matter how you see your character. For example, in wow, very few people even bothered what race they where. the only thing they where interested in, was the racial trait. ESO is the opposite. Choose what feels right for you. A night blade high elf that wants to tank? Erhm....maybe not the best compination if you think in numbers and effects, but thats not what this game is about. YOU build what YOU feel is right for you. Whatever that may be.

And the magic wonderful feature is....nothing is "the correct" thing. The idea is to choose a look, lore, story, build, abilties that you find interesting and you want to build on. Sure, it matters how good a skill is, but this is a Skill based MMO. And even if ESO is a new type of MMO, constant balancing and even MORE skills that we do not know about will happen. So even if what you pick and want to do, is by the number crushers "the worst", it matters less, because you might find a build that your personal skill is very good at. Or you do like me and pick something completely useless, hehe. But thats how we learn?

I dont know how many times from alot of different managers from Zenimax who said, the choice whats best is ONLY up to you. I might be wrong, but I know there are people who only are interested in the best possible setup. Of course, we want to get better. But, in ESO, even "the best" skills and build, mght be wrong for a specific situation or a persons own skill and playstyle?

I look at skill this way. ALL of em are equaly good. they just do different things. I do keep en eye out for stuff that looks to good to be true, and keep away from that until I know more. An example of that is my very early decission not to be either a vampire or a warewolf, because I didnt know the good or the bad stuff.

SO, I pick after my playstyle and I do have a few skills, including 1 ultimate that I barely use. But this I learned by playing and adapting to whatever situation I was in. Very cool if you ask me. But for someone who wants to pick 100% correct, I dont think any one those will be happy cause even if they are "perfect", that can change with new gear, other skills, encounters that isnt so effective even if you are "perfect".

blah blah. Pick your skills as you feel is right for you. I also rely on advice from friends and guild members. Took me quite a while before they convinced me to pick keen eye to see ores easier and hirelings which I saw as pretty much useless......they are one of my most important part in my provisioning and blacksmithing,

Even then the sheer volume of his posts are absolutely obscene. We really really need an ignore user function in these forums. Its not flaming, its the truth.

Look, I have no wish to upset or being annoying to anyone. English is not my first language. And add to that, you are right, that I write to much to get my point across. This is not the first time I've heard this in several places in my life.

First, Thank you for showing me how I can, as you say, in a better way express my opinion, be part of the discussion and sometimes get ideas from others who others can find my view interesting. I wish I had your ability to do that.

I am a champion for free speech, whatever your views are, you have the same right as anyone to say it.

I think you are not aware, that making a statement, both written and spoken, has to do with a person skill in this, and maybe in my case, intellect.

Your very good rephrasing of my post...I really like! And I am trying to learn to be better at that. But you must consider that some people are not as good at others in specific things. I am using myself to not offend anyone, but it could also be that I am less intelligent then you?

However, I do want to comment on "Even then the sheer volume of his posts are absolutely obscene"

The rules states you are not allowed to spam. A moderator are free to correct me, but sir, I am not spamming, I am simply very interesting in ESO and what people think about different types of subjects.

Are you seriously telling me I am not allowed to enter those discussions I find interesting, and have to keep myself to post once a day?

Even though it wasn't very pleasant to read your answers to me, I took in that I need to try to make smaller post, in a better way, to get in all the information/responses and suggestions I can. I am working on that sir.

Free speech doesn't mean the right to drown everyone else out with walls of me me me text and that is exactly what you do. This last post could have been conveyed as followed:

"I have no wish to upset or be annoying to anyone. English isn't my first language and I tend to be long winded. Thanks for showing me how proper paragraphs make my posts more palatable. I'm not spamming I'm just excited about ESO and like to talk about it on the forums more than playing the actual game. I'll try to shorten my posts in the future."

There it is but you can't do that, you have to include five times that content dedicated to shameless self promotion. Even though English isn't your first language you have to be an author before just coming out and saying what you mean. You could post 100 times a day and that would be fine if you posted direct thoughts and opinions but you don't. You post 25 pages of text where maybe 1 page of it is relevant content and the other 24 pages is self inflating fluff. You only hurt yourself by doing that as over time it makes people like myself disinterested in what you have to say.

Vlaxitov

Sakiri wrote: »

Even then, good healers could carry anything. Almost always.

This is the general attitude a lot healing players have in mmos because almost everyone they play with coddles them in hopes that they continue doing it. Its not that you're carrying anyone more than anyone else you would group with. Its that the other people in your group don't want to have to do what you're doing so they are going out of their way to make you feel special for doing it.

Jeremy

Guppet wrote: »

Lodestar wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The MMORPG market is already flooded with easy games. For Elder Scrolls to be successful long-term it has to distinguish itself from the competition. Otherwise it risks being like the other half dozen games before it that tried and failed to out-wow WoW as it's often called.

So just making the game easier does not always mean more successful. Sometimes it's more profitable to find a niche of players and cater exclusively to them over a long period of time. Especially if it wants to remain on a subscription-based model.

If you try to please everyone often-times you will end up pleasing no one.

Yes, I completely agree with you. And that is why we have a rising number of good looking Kickstarter games, some of them have interesting MMOs, that while not all appeal to me, I can respect.

You go into your average city now and so so much corporatised uniformity, with people looking to focus groups to try and aim to as many people as they can. Lets, keep it old but new, big but small. It's for these people, AND these people. Stores looking so much like each other and trained by the same people, identity is thrown out the window (which were also likely designed by some marketing company). You end up with so much, spread so thin, it has no real passion you can identify with. And part of the reason, I think no one goes to the high street as much now.

It is an increasing factor in modern life. Time was, you could look at someone, and tell they were from out of town, by what they were wearing. People can now enter international borders and not look any different to a local. Even so called alternative lifestyles of fashion, music and entertainment is heavily invested in and controlled by big corporations. Which brings us to where we are here.

I firmly believe we are starting to wake slowly from this slumber, and go our own way. Waxing and waning at times, but we are realising big business does not have what we want. Just elements of it next to elements of others.

I don't question this, and welcome people expressing themselves, and doing their own thing. What I question is the wisdom of incorporating so much of the developers of ESO's visions, in the way they have, on a game that carries the Elder Scrolls banner, and marketing it to them.

If you don't follow the standard mould, you are going to be niche. In this day and age if you are going to be niche, you need to be totally top end to survive.

Look at your high streets, it's now all cheap stores, very much like each other, the only exceptions are the very expensive shops.

If ESO wants to be niche, it needs to become high quality, with a high price tag, or it's going to fail. Either that or it accepts the demands of mainstream and adapts accordingly (i.e. easier).

It cost me 80 bucks to buy this game and carries a monthly feel to boot. So I'd say it's a pretty pricey game.

You make a good point though. But I would like to point out that a lot of games have tried and failed to imitate WoW's formula for success and are now free to play. So trying to follow the standard molds is no guarantee for success either.