Be VERY carefull what you wish for

hamon

just a word to the wise for all you forum rambo's who keep saying " this games not for you" or " sorry the games to hard go find another game" and other glib idiotic responses to folk percieving (justified or not) the game is getting too buggy/hard/non fun.

ive seen this pattern in almost every MMO thats failed

1/ all the "hardcores" say stuff like " go play another game then " " this games not for the likes of you"
2/ fast forward a month or 2 " my guilds dying" "where is everyone " ,, " is this game dead"
3/ finally " come back its fun now , they fixed stuff"

just a warning from the history of failed MMO's , name one "hardcore" MMO thats survived in the last 10 years?
conversely name some who pleased the hardcore for a few months then died due to alienating the "average" players

MMO's need to be balanced around the majority of its player base in terms of what they percieve to be a fair and fun experience. harcores can make it more difficult and challenging if they wish (but they dont, they just want to make it as easy as possible otherwise why would they ALWAYS play the most OP builds , classes)

anything else is a recipe for failure. you dont alienate the largest section of your customer base and survive long..

food for thought

Epona222

Aye, I always thought the whole point of the game was to appeal to the massive Elder Scrolls fanbase who always wanted to be able to play with their friends. Elder Scrolls games are not difficult or challenging.
Now I don't mind a bit of difficulty, but I can't help feeling that making this the new hardcore MMO is a big blunder, in marketing terms.

steveb16_ESO46

hamon wrote: »

conversely name some who pleased the hardcore for a few months then died due to alienating the "average" players

2015 called and they say the answer is ESO unless something is done to change the time-line.

Nephys

@hamon Fair post hamon. I suspect you will soon be subject to the behaviour that you highlight. But you did forget to mention "l2p" and "whiner". No doubt someone will give you an active example of the other nonsense they use.

Crassius

Food for thought? Nah, that's just common sense. Unfortunately, it's the least common of all senses.

Double in MMO's.

jimdove

EVE online has survived and is flourishing. And it is about the most hardcore game, not just mmo, that one can play.

Loco_Mofo

hamon wrote: »

ive seen this pattern in almost every MMO thats failed

It happens in EVERY MMO, not just the ones that fail.

Fact is not everyone is on the same skill level, so without fail, there will be people from all sides saying the game is too easy, too hard and rarely it's just right.

Me, I'm having no problems with the new patch. Should I stay quiet while the tears flood the forums or share my experience like the rest?

Catflinger

jimdove wrote: »

EVE online has survived and is flourishing. And it is about the most hardcore game, not just mmo, that one can play.

I wouldn't say that EVE is "flourishing". It does well enough that it has been able to remain a subscription-based game, but only just barely. It doesn't have more than about 375,000 - 500,000 subs, and nearly all of those are multiples, so we can estimate that it likely has less than 200,000 unique people playing the game, with multiple accounts. EVE has a terrible time retaining new players because of its brutal learning curve and for the other obvious reasons. So no, that game is a pretty bad example.

VlVEC

Considering they have a PS4/Xbox One console launch upcoming I doubt this game is going away any time soon.

Izatar

Apparently the console launch has been delayed 6 months!

Guppet

Hardcore players just need to understand one thing. A game must be enjoyable to the average player, most hardcore players are above average skill (not wanting to buff their ego too much, but its true), as they are above average the game has to be easy for them, or it would be too hard for the average gamer, it will therefore fail, as they will quit and you need their money to keep it afloat.

Any game which is balanced to be just right for a hardcore player wont survive these days. Those days are long gone, you may not want to accept it, but developrs no longer care who their audience is (like EQ wanted hardcore players), they just want money and that means they have to appeal to the widest audience, the average skill level player (note I did not say casual).

If you find the game easy, don't criticise others, recognise that you are actually good at it and don't try to make it some exclusive club which will die much quicker.

VlVEC

Izatar wrote: »

Apparently the console launch has been delayed 6 months!

Is that a bad thing? That's 6 more months this game will have to prepare and live on, and then consoles will get a refined release.

Grygnak

Thats if it even plays on a console, they have a long way to go. My hopes were crushed after this last patch.

VlVEC

Grygnak wrote: »

Thats if it even plays on a console, they have a long way to go. My hopes were crushed after this last patch.

Don't be so dramatic. It's a video game, they're not perfect.

YstradClud

The main problem they will have on consoles now is that there will be some big name releases on them at the same time ESO is expected to hit.

VlVEC

xCHEMISTx wrote: »

The main problem they will have on consoles now is that there will be some big name releases on them at the same time ESO is expected to hit.

That won't stop it from succeeding.

Guppet

VlVEC wrote: »

xCHEMISTx wrote: »

The main problem they will have on consoles now is that there will be some big name releases on them at the same time ESO is expected to hit.

That won't stop it from succeeding.

What will stop it from succeeding is the fact that hardcore players (those who enjoy the current VR most) tend to have PC's. They are going to launch it to consoles, a market with a much higher percentage of casual players than PC's, if they don't change how VR works, it will be the slowest car crash in history.

Cogo

Not that it matters in numbers but our guild already grow with 3 new recruits this week, and we recruit VERY slow and generally only people we know, played with, or met in game for a while.

3 in one week is alot for us, and they all like ESO as we do.

The people I have suggested that this game might not be for them, are 2 persons. 1 who said he would quit if they "nerfed" the vampire ability to kill 50 people at once in Cyro. Cause how else would he kill people.

The other was some nightblade or sorcerer who used 1H and shield and said the same thing, if they "nerf" this, he quits.

Good bye! Dont let the door in you in the back on you way out!

Those types of people either understand what type of game this is, nor would day they long anyway even if they keep being overpowered.

I see more and more people here who for example and no offence to players who use this addon, but I met several "new" players to this type of game while I am hunting for skyshards......they are doing the same. And some of em didnt even know there are tips in the journal where they might be.

THAT kind of player is more likely to be here in 6 months then the player who got highest level in 1 week, using 35 addons, even though, I dont diss addons! I just dont use em myself! :-)

VlVEC

Guppet wrote: »

VlVEC wrote: »

xCHEMISTx wrote: »

The main problem they will have on consoles now is that there will be some big name releases on them at the same time ESO is expected to hit.

That won't stop it from succeeding.

What will stop it from succeeding is the fact that hardcore players (those who enjoy the current VR most) tend to have PC's. They are going to launch it to consoles, a market with a much higher percentage of casual players than PC's, if they don't change how VR works, it will be the slowest car crash in history.

Hardcore players? Console? lol.

Cogo

VlVEC wrote: »

Izatar wrote: »

Apparently the console launch has been delayed 6 months!

Is that a bad thing? That's 6 more months this game will have to prepare and live on, and then consoles will get a refined release.

Who the HELL cares about ESO on a consol?!?! It cant possibly be even remotly the same game. How do you RP on a consol?General chat, community, forums, etc.
I fully understand why they release ESO as consol game cause there is a lot of money in consol players. Good for us if Zenimax gets more resources to keep developing this, do I dare to say it, possibly worthy successor to Everquest?

Clunan

Saying Eve is a bad example is wrong. You cant compare ANY other MMO to WoWs in terms of # of subscribers. Eve's numbers are great for any MMO that isnt PandaPonyExpressToMaxLevel. Eve is THE perfect example to what a great game can do IF it can satisfy the needs of the hardcore sandboxer... Which is a LOT. Now, to give you some credit to your argument, ESO is NOT a hardcore MMO, limited API, so many stats completely hidden without addons, no item drop on death(full loot pvp is almost the gold standard for hardcore sandbox), and many other features that show ESO is intended for the carebears... ESO is a mainstream AAA MMO. You're right, it CAN'T survive without a fair and balanced system. So I agree, BUT I want you to respectively take back your comment on how EVE is a bad example of a hardcore mmo.

Kemono

jimdove wrote: »

EVE online has survived and is flourishing. And it is about the most hardcore game, not just mmo, that one can play.

Best joke i hear tooday
Thanks a lot, i needed a good laugh

But seriously -there are two types of MMO -big AAA titles that target at masses (so mostly casuals) and small niche MMOs - and no they are mostly hardcore and dont care at all about "wide market"

EVE is one of niche MMO
ESO is NOT a niche MMO -and it need a WIDE population or its going to flop.
If anything, curent situation in ESO remainds me oh, so very much about first months of Defiance -exact same devs attitude, worst support ever, dead chat in game, bugs on bugs inside bugs and with bugs, then patched with even more bugs.

Are you familiar with what kind of fuss Defiance was?
Are you familiar what happend to Defiance later?
And where it is now? (a YEAR later)

btw i just cant wait to my niche MMO to be released, then im out
This gonna be holidays for SW:G fans
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/therepopulation/the-repopulation-a-sandbox-mmorpg

YstradClud

If ESO was intended to be a hardcore mmo they wouldn't of announced it for consoles in the first place imo.

Cogo

Guppet wrote: »

VlVEC wrote: »

xCHEMISTx wrote: »

The main problem they will have on consoles now is that there will be some big name releases on them at the same time ESO is expected to hit.

That won't stop it from succeeding.

What will stop it from succeeding is the fact that hardcore players (those who enjoy the current VR most) tend to have PC's. They are going to launch it to consoles, a market with a much higher percentage of casual players than PC's, if they don't change how VR works, it will be the slowest car crash in history.

Tend to have PCs? This IS a PC game. MMORPG?
From a consols view I can only see the few actions bars, use arrow keys to choose your diaologe, which I highly doubt most console players even are interested in. They just want the reward or the quest so they can, with a controller, go kill things.

Explore? turn around a stone? I highly doubt there will be as many skyshards because will really tradeskill with all mats needed to manage be if interest or even possible in a console?

ESO has a great action base for a console game, but interaction with others? How will console/internet (they are normaly wireless) handle any type of huge battles that we have in cyrodiil?

I see it as a multiplayer, if not their own server, then 4 players per console at home, playing this as an action RP game. Simular to fallout on Console, if you know the difference in the console version and PC, hehe.

But I say again, GREAT if they make one and sell. cause it increases revenue for OUR game developer .

Winnower

Lord of the Rings Online put the game on easy-mode, eliminated the endgame raids and harder group content, went back and nerfed all the old content to make *anyone* able to solo all the content everywhere, reduced aggro radius, eliminated mechanics, cut back the health and power of all the NPCs, made it easy to cap all stats at max level - and people left in droves.

SW:TOR is the easy-mode game for non-gamers; most of gamers I know left it to the people who like to pay RLcash for things they can buy on the Cartel Market.

This game is already pretty easy, and most of the hard boss mobs have been nerfed more than once.

There are plenty of games who have lost major numbers of players when they dumbed the game down. Personally I'd be happy if this game was reserved to people who don't mind paying $25 a month for a subscription and who recognize the need to have to group to take down content - content which is appropriately difficult.

In EQ1 (back in the stone age) content was group *by default*. There were only 2 classes that could effectively solo content for experience leveling at all, and they had to velly velly careful. The rest of the time you needed at least a duo, preferably 3, and if you could get a nice group of 6 you could plow through some content.

If you want to know how a lot of people made it to level 50+ in this game in the first week - one of the ways they were able to augment their leveling was that they formed groups even before launch - and everything in their path was mowed down in short order - every mob, every quest, every delve and dungeon.

So no, I completely disagree with the the op argument above.

theyancey

I agree with the OP. This is am online story driven game set in a very specific universe that has a large and dedicated following. Elder Scrolls games are not shooters. A person who buys Oblivion expecting Halo will be disappointed. Likewise anyone expecting ESO to be WoW or some such won't be happy here either. When this concept began to gather steam there were some who wanted co-op Skyrim instead of an MMORPG. This is not that game. It was never intended to be and never will be. If I had to compare it to something it would be LOTRO.

This brings us to Harmon's cogent statements. This game was built to engage Old and new ES fans and hopefully to be a vehicle to attract many more in the future. It is a game that should appeal and be playable by all of them. It was stressed by ZOS during the design phase that the game would be approachable by all and would be built for both group and solo players. Anyone can play and with a modicum of effort and a short learning curve be able to enjoy the game's content and STORY. Take away the low hanging game fruit that allows the newbie, the disabled, the aged, or the casual player to fully complete and enjoy playing ESO and you remove the salaries for devs, mods, servers, etc. The game shrinks with the collapsing player base. In the end all that would be left is a burned out cinder of an F2P populated by a handful of self proclaimed uber gamers who sit around bemoaning the lack of new content and fellow players. I do not think that such a suicidal business model would sit well with Zenimax's shareholders. For us ES fans it would represent the final victory of the daedra. Even at this early date these forums read like something concocted by Sheogorath.

YstradClud

Cogo wrote: »

Tend to have PCs? This IS a PC game. MMORPG?
From a consols view I can only see the few actions bars, use arrow keys to choose your diaologe, which I highly doubt most console players even are interested in. They just want the reward or the quest so they can, with a controller, go kill things.

Explore? turn around a stone? I highly doubt there will be as many skyshards because will really tradeskill with all mats needed to manage be if interest or even possible in a console?

ESO has a great action base for a console game, but interaction with others? How will console/internet (they are normaly wireless) handle any type of huge battles that we have in cyrodiil?

A lot of questions that's no one is sure of because mmos are traditionally a pc genre so only time will tell.

czar

Winnower wrote: »

This game is already pretty easy, and most of the hard boss mobs have been nerfed more than once.

i honestly don't know why they nerf bosses, why can't the trash mobs be easy and the bosses hard? i mean that way you get challenges and at the same time casual gamers can just stroll through the game as they want

Alurria

theyancey wrote: »

I agree with the OP. This is am online story driven game set in a very specific universe that has a large and dedicated following. Elder Scrolls games are not shooters. A person who buys Oblivion expecting Halo will be disappointed. Likewise anyone expecting ESO to be WoW or some such won't be happy here either. When this concept began to gather steam there were some who wanted co-op Skyrim instead of an MMORPG. This is not that game. It was never intended to be and never will be. If I had to compare it to something it would be LOTRO.

This brings us to Harmon's cogent statements. This game was built to engage Old and new ES fans and hopefully to be a vehicle to attract many more in the future. It is a game that should appeal and be playable by all of them. It was stressed by ZOS during the design phase that the game would be approachable by all and would be built for both group and solo players. Anyone can play and with a modicum of effort and a short learning curve be able to enjoy the game's content and STORY. Take away the low hanging game fruit that allows the newbie, the disabled, the aged, or the casual player to fully complete and enjoy playing ESO and you remove the salaries for devs, mods, servers, etc. The game shrinks with the collapsing player base. In the end all that would be left is a burned out cinder of an F2P populated by a handful of self proclaimed uber gamers who sit around bemoaning the lack of new content and fellow players. I do not think that such a suicidal business model would sit well with Zenimax's shareholders. For us ES fans it would represent the final victory of the daedra. Even at this early date these forums read like something concocted by Sheogorath.

You deserve a awesome, finally someone who gets it. There are so many ADHD players out there now, they plow through the game and actually think they won! What did they win? Nothing? I blame the arcade era of games, pop a quarter in and play for 10 mins and win. After years of playing games (I beat PAC man, yars revenge beat it) MMOs I have witnessed the player base change. It's a race to end game, sit around and cry "I'm bored" how pathetic that is. Every time I see it I think that's pathetic what a sad individual. Still shaking my head.

Kronz

There needs to be a game that is hardcore for hardcore players and just have a higher sub feed. I would pay 50 a month np for a soild game that challenged me and kept me engrossed. I am also sure many other gamers would too. HardCore gamers will drop (as I have) 2 grand or even more on a system to play a new game they are excited for. Someone needs to figure this out. Many gamers that are perciveved as elitist or w/e actually have and are willing to spend a lot of money on the product they want. People act like 15 bucks is a lot of money for a month of entertainment. Its a good taco bell meal I mean come on.

YstradClud

Kronz wrote: »

There needs to be a game that is hardcore for hardcore players and just have a higher sub feed. I would pay 50 a month np for a soild game that challenged me and kept me engrossed.

Would have to be prepared for big sub fee because how many developers are going to spend big money to make a multi million $ game for a niche market these days?