lexsota wrote: »

Ketryellowynne wrote: »

Yes but you can use these support sets AS A DD. Outside specific heal checks healers ARE dropped in vet DLC content, both dungeons AND trials. Again, these comments seem to be made by someone who plays but does not play endgame or scorepush. There will absolutely still be healers in content. The potential is writing them out of ENDGAME content where heal checks do not exist. There is 0 reason to add this buff to a Werewolf. I am in groups where this is already being theorized and discussed, because the potential best scores may no longer require healing. That and your “not needing to farm” is absolute rubbish. SPC is probably the single most accessible “meta” set in game. It’s an early DLC dungeon easy to run, doesn’t have a perfected version, the dungeon was changed to be included free for everyone, and you can get pieces from fragments without having to run the dungeon at all, so less farming than other dungeon sets. You don’t need money, you don’t need in game gold, you don’t need to be a particularly high level, you don’t need to farm PvP… very few sets in game are so accessible.

…all to give an unnecessary additional buff to werewolves.

So first. At current state you still CAN USE THIS SETS AS DD - werewolf is not a problem here.

Second. I havent seen in my entire live trial or vet trial without even 1 heal. There is other problem - while you trying to find group in group finder - you will not see any healer or tank join in sometimes it can take 40 minutes to find them. So is this problem about healer replacement actually exist or we are at point where theres almost zero healers in game?

Third. You said potential best scores - we need to see this changes go live and then make opinions, and not just fear and take everything that is possible from other classes and life forms. Im here for changes.

Fourth - if you want to rely on one set for next 5-10 year...idk its seeems pretty boring. What if potencial new class will get it? You will take it from it too?

We will adapt - for me its seems like feer of changes. You can use Powerful Assault (i know its used by tanks - but its easier to keep uptime for healer). Its little less then SPC, but its uniq buff that will stack with Major Courage.

And last one - if this unnecessary additional buff - WHY DO YOU NEED IT?

First. You are completely missing the point. You’re stating it and completely just not understanding. The reason why SPC is the set in question here is because it is currently the ONLY one of these sets that procs from HEALING (overhealing specifically) and so cannot effectively be run on a DD. Yes healers are supports SO ARE TANKS. The point of this conversation is ZoS completely in acknowledging the importance or even existence of healers apart from generic support roles when they still acknowledged tanks apart from them in the same breath. The point is to keep healers relevant, and outsourcing the thing that has kept them relevant thus far, especially without meaningful addition of things to be sourced by healing specifically that cannot be sourced, or cannot be sourced as well elsewhere.

Second. Because you and I are playing the game at very different levels. This is exactly the thing that frustrates serious PVP players when changes like this come up and casual PVPers who are relatively unimpaired by changes go off on them for speaking up. Of course it doesn’t affect you specifically, it doesn’t matter. What you bring up is group finder. I’m not talking about PUG runs. I’m talking about serious ORGANIZED content where every set, every skill, every class, every movement, every addon, every individual is optimized. It is the OPTIMIZATION where this becomes dangerous. You haven’t seen trials without healers because a) right now, even apart from any heal check, b) a group still needs major courage, and c) most importantly YOU ARE NOT A PART OF THE ENDGAME COMMUNITY. Minor toughness, sure, but that doesn’t actually impact most things. It’s just nice to have additional health where it’s an afterthought. It’s not strictly “needed” for additional damage. Your parse is exactly the same with or without minor toughness. With or without major courage is a completely different story.

Third IT’S NOT TAKING ANYTHING FROM THEM. It’s just not giving it to them where they have not had it already. I have been one of the largest advocates to werewolf healing in healing communities. I do play wolf, and I do play wolf healing specifically. I love that the fact that I am actively advocated in this same thread to give more to werewolves. Give a reason for a werewolf specifically that cannot be sourced elsewhere. Make more reason for them to be chosen as the source for the MINOR COURAGE BUFF THEY ALREADY GIVE as opposed to other sources. Once changes go live IT’S ALREADY TOO LATE. And of course, because it doesn’t affect you negatively, it doesn’t matter, but it DOES affect endgame healers specifically. I have already heard talks of “no healer TTT” and “no healer IR” because there are no heal checks in those trials, and if you can get a buff best sourced from healing sources from damage, why would you bring a healer when you can bring more damage at kill it faster. It becomes a “kill it before it kill’s you! Numbers go BRRRRR.” The werewolf changes are what is on the table NOW. No one is calling for anything to be taken away from them. They’re calling for them to not be given something they didn’t already have which will outsource others in the process in the highest levels if the PVE community, where it is already impossibly difficult to get a spot at all.

Fourth, no. No one wants to rely on the same set for 10 years but you are being deliberately obtuse and trivializing my concern because you are personally bored of running SPC on a healer—sorry “support” because healer is apparently a dirty term— in mid to entry level content. Clearly you don’t know healing meta. Healers already do use PA. Tanks do too. In the communities I’m discussing DDs DO TOO. Because it does not require healing. It requires an assault skill, which exist in abundance outside of echoing vigor. RoJo is the same, so t can, and is sometimes in these communities, run on a DD. MK, usually on a DD. Z’en, better on a DD. Xoryn, usually run on a tank. Same with pillagers. Could be on a DD on a tank…. None of these require healing… except SPC. If Olorime smart targeted and affected 12 instead of 6, heck, that would be the same net effect where you would see healers being dropped from endgame content apart from specific heal checks.

The named buff is necessary. The buff to werewolves, as in making werewolves stronger by outsourcing this specific named buff to them, is NOT.

lexsota wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Vet and even HM dungeons also, for the most part, can have most of their mechanics skipped if you 3dps it. Unhallowed grave trifecta is and always has been best done 3 dps because there's no DoTs to heal through, while the mechanics focus on doing damage. Black Gem Foundry WR is even 3 dps iirc and that one has heal checks that most groups would need a healer for. Unchained used to be the hardest 4-man content and that is often 3 dpsed as well. This game is one of stacking damage, healers often fall by the wayside in favor of more damage. The only way to fix this is to both reign in power creep and add more punishing healer mechanics.

Damage is problem here. Not buffs. Not Werewolf. Theres too much damage.

Soarora wrote: »

Now, I agree that major courage on a werewolf won't cause healers to be extinct on it's own but... what are you on about? Olorime gets used by tanks built for 3 dps runs in dungeons because major courage is so important. And SPC is one of the easiest sets to keep 100% uptime on?

Have youve seen Olorime radius? its so small and have too long coldown compared to SPC. My honest opinion - we should buff Olorime.

Soarora wrote: »

Realistically, if healers get SPC taken away, it'll just be replaced by a different set. The root problem is unresolvable, certain buffs will always be expected. It would be nice, admittedly, to be able to play around with other sets instead of feeling like I need to do SPC/ma or pa as a healer, but werewolf major courage wouldn't even be relevant for most dungeon runs.

Any Major Courage not so relevant for most dungeons run.

Soarora wrote: »

Healer is potentially the easiest role to get gear for. Can just... get body SPC from a few runs of WGT and buy PA. Tanks usually need at least one set from trials just because of the group buffs and DPS usually need at least one set from trials because of minor slayer.

For new players and new healers its still lot of work. On my case i get restoration stuff of SPC from 30rd run only. And yes, i were buing this set, but its only question of luck.

Damage ISN’T the problem. Taking away meaningful reasons to run a healer as opposed to something else IS the problem.

The range and size of Olo is fine. Just because you personally are not skilled enough to use it does not mean that it is not used by people who are more serious at the game than you. It is, and has been for a long time, used in exactly the situations Saorora mentioned. We don’t need to buff it. It fills a niche and does it well.

And “most” dungeon runs is not what is being discussed here. Of course major courage is not relevent in your RND. But in endgame community, where people are aiming for world first, and world record times, it is EXCEPTIONALLY important. Frankly, since you DON’T participate in these communities, you really shouldn’t be speaking on matters that do not affect you and trivializing the problems they cause for the communities they do affect. Saorora is bringing up endgame 4 man here which has probably seen the decline most of use of healers in any PVE content. What the werewolf major courage issue represents is the potential of this tricking into engame 12 man content more than it already has.

And your point is still moot. I helped a player a month ago get their SPC who was returning to game from before stickerbook was a thing. They got SPC resto IN DECISIVE as their 3rd drop from imperial vault using fragments. The fact that you CAN use fragments makes it less farming than literally any other dungeon set unless you find a person with a guaranteed drop. It’s clear you’re not super serious about content, at least not in the capacity to which these sorts of buffs make any meaningful difference, so go run in a crafted set. For the purposes of group finder or random dungeons, it is the same net effect. but do not whine boo hoo I had to farm something, SPC is worst set ever because I cannot buy it. It is EXTREMELY entitled and trivializes everything that is being discussed. It is selfish and non conducive to any of the issues at hand.

lexsota wrote: »

I dont see any potencial scenario where you can go without healers in vet dlc dungeons and trials . It's just anxiety out of nowhere here. Just try it and you will not live for long. For most part we dont see healer or tank in normal (or even dlc and vet base game dungeons) only because queue for dd is SO LONG so its easier for them to switch roles or most dungeons let you skip most of mechanics with higher dps than expected. THIS is NOT problem of losing buffs or something.

Saying to all of people here who scared about healer extinction only because ONE buff from only ONE viable set (Olorime doesnt work well and nobody wear mythics that provides Major Courage it) in game will be given to Werewolf its crazy. Also by doing math we can see that Major Courage not so viable in 4 man content - its only shine in trials, specially in vet trial. So anyone of you actually played in them? Because its such a hard work - to keep ALL buff for 100% uptime and by giving major courage to werewolf we can use ANY other sets that will provide buffs to whole group. Dont forget about that healer is SUPPORT ROLE.
For me as healer player in normal and vet content this seems like greed and overreaction. Im tired of SCP meta and buffs from only one source.

Imagine world when you no longer need to farm White Gold Tower to became good healer. If we want more healers - we should make it easier for them to go in.

Im not a big fun of role-dependent buff and debuff. Support roles will always be viable and there SO SO MANY options to bring without SPC!

This has happened before..
as a healer main have many trifecta
i see pass 3 year dungeon trifecta meta is 1t 3dps
2(3? year ago vet/hm trial oaken meta is 2t 10dd or 1t 1h 10dd because you can give a oaken dd go do ot/2nd healer work like kite and still did good dmg,the game role is ..if dps have enough dps and too tank /have some heal ,the healer will loss of meaning,because most time hps really not important, healer more like a buff/debuff robot,and dps can did same thing

Arunei wrote: »

And to clarify any misconceptions or assumptions, I personally don't PvP. I can count on one hand the number of times I've dueled and I haven't touched the other facets of PvP in years. I don't want WW to remain OP in PvP. What I do want is WW not getting nerfed for PvP because some people think the whole playstyle is OP based on ONE build in ONE aspect ov PvP.

.....So let me get this straight. You spent 10 pages arguing with me, @React, @Alchimiste1 who are seasoned PvPers, yet you don't personally PvP?

You are either ragebaiting us pretty damn well, or you are taking a stance in a subject matter which you have zero knowledge on. I'm sorry, but this is where we should stop.

Tannus15 wrote: »

I just want to emphasise this point

Sorc is also being carried by monolith of storms right now.
Swap that set out for any other set and it's under 180k with horrible cleave.

Not that I'm arguing for a nerf to monolith, it's awesome that it has gone from seriously one of the worst sets in the game to one of the strongest, but be aware that there is a lot going on with sorc parses right now which are compounding to push up their numbers.

Sorcs don't have access to any crit damage passives, or pen passives so they are going to have to make compromises to their "dummy" setup the moment you put them in an actual group.
Hell, these parses are being done without major brutality/sorcery since it's on the dummy now so we're all using tripots.

There is literally one build that works properly, which is monolith of storms, mora's scribe and huntsman's warmask to get these numbers and they scale back very quickly if you try and do something else.

Overload is a gimmick that no one acutally uses in content because you need to build ult on trash to have that kind of opening on a boss, and the group is far better off if you just drop an atro instead, 10% damage for the group when everyone is hitting their ults vs a cheesey damage spike for 1 person.

I'm really concerned that ZoS are going to look at the BIG NUMBAS parses and overlook how it's just playing to the dummy and not the game.

You're right. Actually, I genuinely believe Sorc can remain as it is until the year-end refresh, then we can discuss how to adjust Sorc Mastery and Sorc-class sets. Otherwise, all the balancing work done now will likely have to be scrapped and redone during the year-end refresh, which is a significant time cost for both developers and players.

I believe the reason Sorc is currently too strong is because "Static Reverberation" provides an additional source of damage, which is also observed in CMX where Static Reverberation accounts for a very high percentage of damage.

Perhaps adding a condition "when dealing direct or shock damage" to Static Reverberation could slightly reduce its trigger frequency. Alternatively, adding a 0.5-second cooldown could be implemented.

However, please don't nerf it too harshly, as this is the only viable tool that Sorc has the potential to compete with other classes before its rework at the end of the year, especially after the developers decided to give Major Berserk to Dragoon.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

[*] We have seen the feedback regarding the glowing markings on the Werewolf model for Ultimate Morphs, ranging from toning down the intensity of the glow to removing the glow entirely.

I would prefer to be able to remove the markings entirely. Not just the glow.