Nordstern wrote: »

Cyro would be way better if they just massively reduced the cross healing. The approach they did was right but it needs to be increased heavily. Reduce all cross heal by 50% on top of battle spirit and limit the overall healing effects per target.

They mentioned this in a thread or two and the ball group players swarmed it crying about how unfair it was so they never did it, lol

Blackrim wrote: »

If you build a solo bomber build you can win.

You need to determine who is the most important person in a group to assassinate to destroy those organized keep farmers.

Speaking as a seasoned solo bomber, I can say with confidence…you can’t win a damn thing long-term.

For the most part, all of these groups consist of 35k - 45k+ HP builds that have hellish healing, shields at almost all times, and hold block most of the time, while someone on the outskirts is damn near hooked up to a detect pot IV.

Oh sure, you can occasionally catch someone lacking and pop some squishy player who latched onto the group looking to be carried. And setting off that bomb is fun, don’t get me wrong. But you won’t kill everyone in the group, and (depending on who’s around you when you go in for a bomb) you might not even stop the enemy from flipping or defending a keep.

As for the point of this thread, solo-only Cyro will never happen. The mode is intended as a large-scale group warfare mode, so it makes no sense to not allow players to run around in groups. Plus, people would find ways to group up anyway.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

Cyro would be way better if they just massively reduced the cross healing. The approach they did was right but it needs to be increased heavily. Reduce all cross heal by 50% on top of battle spirit and limit the overall healing effects per target.

They mentioned this in a thread or two and the ball group players swarmed it crying about how unfair it was so they never did it, lol

Because the original proposal of -50% at 3 "HOTs" (which includes a ton of regular class abilities like Templar Rune) was completely insane and would penalize like all competent players in Cyrodiil rather than only comped groups.

Do competent players need hot stacks? The initial -50 proposal could have been -75 or 2 hots. I wonder if complaining then also would have had resulted in -33. Now healing and also shield stacks can primarily be countered by bombing, while we also need options for less extreme play styles to counter.

Or they could make a set that worked like a bomb for overhealing. As in the damage increases geometrically with every active HOT on the target. To the point that 4+ HOTs would be lethal

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

But, exactly as predicted, groups moved on to the next-best thing, which were shields. So, hopefully in U50, we will see something addressing that.

Yep, and this is what we've been saying all along -- it's not just the hots, it's shields too. And before arcanists and scribing, the hots by themselves were not as big of a problem. It's the combination that makes it over the top.

Before arcanists, groups might have two bone shields going for major vitality coverage and a few barrier ults (or 6, @YandereGirlfriend *cough* )

@YandereGirlfriend I'm actually with you. I remember when they introduced Sload's to combat ball groups and the predictable happened. The devs actually solving the problem rarely happens. Most of the time, their fixes make ball groups worse, like with ROA or Charm.

They just need to realize that with every pro there needs to be an equal con.

xFocused wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

@YandereGirlfriend I'm actually with you. I remember when they introduced Sload's to combat ball groups and the predictable happened. The devs actually solving the problem rarely happens. Most of the time, their fixes make ball groups worse, like with ROA or Charm.

They just need to realize that with every pro there needs to be an equal con.

Sloads, Plaguebreak, Snake in the Stars, Dark Con, Azureblight…all introduced to combat ball groups, all nerfed after ball group players didn’t like them 😂

Yep. With Plaguebreak and Azure getting the flimsy excuse of "Its being used as an exploit in rare situations in PVE, so we have to wreck it for PVP, even though we could just put in a caveat "not on monsters." Not our fault!"

Nordstern wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

Cyro would be way better if they just massively reduced the cross healing. The approach they did was right but it needs to be increased heavily. Reduce all cross heal by 50% on top of battle spirit and limit the overall healing effects per target.

They mentioned this in a thread or two and the ball group players swarmed it crying about how unfair it was so they never did it, lol

Because the original proposal of -50% at 3 "HOTs" (which includes a ton of regular class abilities like Templar Rune) was completely insane and would penalize like all competent players in Cyrodiil rather than only comped groups.

Do competent players need hot stacks? The initial -50 proposal could have been -75 or 2 hots. I wonder if complaining then also would have had resulted in -33. Now healing and also shield stacks can primarily be countered by bombing, while we also need options for less extreme play styles to counter.

Couldnt agree more with this. Hots require zero skill and organized groups with stacking hots are immortal if they know at least slightly what they do. Cross healing must be nerfed A LOT harder.

This is just wrong. Healing and sticky HoTs already got hit hard this patch. Up until now, 12-man ball groups were often running 10+ Vigors, plus usually 1 Radiating Regeneration per healer, so another 4–6 sticky HoTs on top of that, and that is not even counting Soul Siphon, Replenishing Barrier, and other niche sticky HoTs. Now that number is capped at 7 total, or 6 if a group runs Soul Siphon. Because of that, I really do not think sticky HoTs can keep being blamed. This debuff already does a solid job of balancing HoT stacking. It could maybe be pushed a bit further if needed, but there are bigger problems that should have been addressed with far more urgency than cross-healing

1) Shields have been the bigger issue.
Casual Cyrodiil players already have plenty of accessible ways to reduce healing through oils, Meatbags, siege, and Defile. Oils and Meat bags alone heavily cut healing taken, and the debuff is stackable, unlike major/minor debuffs. The problem is that siege does absolutely nothing to shields, and shielding became much more oppressive once scribing introduced spammable shields with very little real counterplay. Shields are also just inherently stronger than heals as a mechanic, because they add effective health on top of a full bar. You cannot heal past 40k HP, but you absolutely can slap another 10k+ of shielding on top of it. Once that happens, burst, which has historically been the real counter to ball groups, becomes much harder to execute.

2) DK rework/buffs.
The DK changes gave organized groups both more damage and more defense. Even setting aside Cauterize, which is already a very strong alternative to Vigor now that sticky HoTs are limited, the rework also added access to one of the dumbest defensive ults in the game right now: Magma Shell. In groups sitting at 40k+ HP, the value of that ult becomes absurd, and it stacks with Barrier, Gibber, and regular scribing and Arcanist shields. On top of that, groups also gained 25% projectile damage reduction, which cuts a huge amount of pug pressure since so much random group damage comes from ranged projectile skills.

Solo-only killed BGs. Now you want to kill Cyro with it. You're playing a frickin' MMO dude. Go play a single player game.

xFocused wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Solo-only killed BGs. Now you want to kill Cyro with it. You're playing a frickin' MMO dude. Go play a single player game.

Eh, you kinda missed the OP's point here...I don't read it as they were asking for "solo only, no groups" but instead asking "Or give us solo players better anti group gear like immunity and burst heal from dark con or agony."

Which brings back the ongoing issue, for solo/casual players, there is no viable option against these groups that stack Rush, stack heals, have incredibly OP shields, stack warden charm and the like...there's been several threads and comments made across these forums asking for literally any kind of counter solos can use to counter comped out groups. Sets that were introduced to counter them (Sloads, PB, Dark Con, Hrothgars, Snake in the Stars, Azureblight) have all been nerfed to some extent or now the comped groups run them to steamroll solos even more.

So me personally, I don't agree with killing group play in this game but when will Zos address the issue that comped groups are pretty much untouchable at this point?

First principles are that we shouldn't be relying upon sets to counter playstyles. That is a slippery slope that more often than not has unintended consequences, such as groups adopting those same sets to use for themselves.

In other words, if a thing is too powerful then address the thing itself.

Another observation that I have from PC-NA is that comped 12-mans are increasingly going the way of the dinosaur and that comped groups of 5-6 (using mainly DK skill lines) are springing up to take their place as the Bane of Pugs.

Because over the last several patches "ballgroup-like" power has now been made accessible using far fewer players. The DK changes, which gave everyone huge individual sustain, damage, and healing poured rocket fuel on that trend.