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Re: Vengeance test key metric - player interest
I think having a vengeance like test for PvE would be an awesome idea since pve has serious lag and performance issues for months now.
I mean for me as an avid pvp player pve is unfortunately just a unnecessary but mandatory grind to farm gear and unlock skills. How about making it easier accessible to PvPers who don't enjoy PvE by making template PvE builds too? That's really a good idea.
Thanks for inspiring.
This! I think PvE should be more about skill than sets. Just figure out the best set up using only your class and weapon abilities; why bother with all that set farming and leveling or gear or anything? If you can light attack weave and push all your buttons before the little timer runs out that'll get you through the trifectas eventually! Think about how much more accessible it is if someone can log on without ever doing anything but join a veteran trial, as long as they have the skills. It's not like that makes it a completely different game or anything. Just think about all the players who will find this version of PvE better! PvErs who disliked PvP just avoided it before, then returned for vengeance and discovered they liked that better, so imagine how much people might come to like Vengeance PvE!
This might be a little hard for that tiny number of existing endgame PvErs who put time and effort into getting gear sets and unlocking skill lines mastering their build and coordinating with their groups and playing the actual game et cetera but the people want what the people want, and what I want is to walk into a trial butt nekkid and do the same dps as a 3600cp trifecta collecting sweat.
Heavy attack builds for everyone!
Re: Vengeance 4 perk and loadout system livestream announcement
I'm looking forward to testing and I'm really happy to see the devs putting in this amount of work to improve PvP. Seeing this level of attention and effort is fantastic.
Much as I've had fun in the laggy mess of Cyrodiil, I'm fully supportive of re-doing the whole thing from the ground up, so we have good performance and balance. I'm not going to try guessing how Cyro will look at the end, but I am crossing my fingers that it's both fun and fast. Because it's been so much fun having huge battles without getting dumped out of the game.
Much as I've had fun in the laggy mess of Cyrodiil, I'm fully supportive of re-doing the whole thing from the ground up, so we have good performance and balance. I'm not going to try guessing how Cyro will look at the end, but I am crossing my fingers that it's both fun and fast. Because it's been so much fun having huge battles without getting dumped out of the game.
Re: Vengeance 4 perk and loadout system livestream announcement
Pretty sure they will add Vengeance as an OPTION in the future and leave the current Cyro PvP model intact until the end of ESO.
This is great because people who enjoy Vengeance can play that and others who enjoy the current system can keep playing that.
But for some reason a lot of current Cyro players want Vengeance killed as soon as possible because they see this optional choice as a threat because they fear a lot of people would switch to Vengeance.
Which also clearly signifies they actually understand why Vengeance is so popular compared to live Cyro, if they are so afraid of it.
Vengeance is basically what Hearthstone (the card game) did. At some point they had so many cards and abilities that it became impossible to balance so they created a wild 'anything goes' mode (like current Cyro) and the standard mode that has a curated number of cards and abilities (like Vengeance). Lots of games with so many years of content do this for accessibility and balance reasons.
This is great because people who enjoy Vengeance can play that and others who enjoy the current system can keep playing that.
But for some reason a lot of current Cyro players want Vengeance killed as soon as possible because they see this optional choice as a threat because they fear a lot of people would switch to Vengeance.
Which also clearly signifies they actually understand why Vengeance is so popular compared to live Cyro, if they are so afraid of it.
Vengeance is basically what Hearthstone (the card game) did. At some point they had so many cards and abilities that it became impossible to balance so they created a wild 'anything goes' mode (like current Cyro) and the standard mode that has a curated number of cards and abilities (like Vengeance). Lots of games with so many years of content do this for accessibility and balance reasons.
Re: Vengeance 4 perk and loadout system livestream announcement
Current PvP players will play anything:
1) With fun and players - this is why RW is dead - people left because proc sets were removed -> they moved to CP, so only those who liked non-proc kept playing. ZOS returned procs -> RW lost even that loyal part of the playerbase. Now it's completely empty or dominated by a zerg from one faction.
2) Without lags - this is why current CP campaigns are hated. I think no comments are needed.
3) With skill involved - this is why good old 1vX players have almost left Cyrodiil (like 80% of people I knew, and I can hardly find new 1vX players; some created a group of 2-4 for small-scale or just joined balls).
ZOS granted some base stats long ago, and it homogenized players - so you no longer need to think about buffs like crit resistance (you have 1650 from the start, which wasn't the case long ago). I understand why it was done - it makes the game easier for new players, as you now have survivability even by doing nothing. But it also affects other players, as they can hardly kill a random pug if they have a healer - they have just enough survivability not to die together, but they still die in 1 second solo. It's just an illusion of PvP; it's a game where you create a 40k HP build in order NOT TO DIE (imagine dying in a video game, lol) rather than to kill other players. I saw enough 40-50k HP players in IC recently who were just farming bosses for the weekly.
If Vengeance has these 3 points, it will be awesome. But these loadouts make me think it will be another homogenization - friendly for newcomers but an absolute disaster for old players. So if it goes live, I can only wish that ZOS finds more new players than the old ones they will lose.
1) With fun and players - this is why RW is dead - people left because proc sets were removed -> they moved to CP, so only those who liked non-proc kept playing. ZOS returned procs -> RW lost even that loyal part of the playerbase. Now it's completely empty or dominated by a zerg from one faction.
2) Without lags - this is why current CP campaigns are hated. I think no comments are needed.
3) With skill involved - this is why good old 1vX players have almost left Cyrodiil (like 80% of people I knew, and I can hardly find new 1vX players; some created a group of 2-4 for small-scale or just joined balls).
ZOS granted some base stats long ago, and it homogenized players - so you no longer need to think about buffs like crit resistance (you have 1650 from the start, which wasn't the case long ago). I understand why it was done - it makes the game easier for new players, as you now have survivability even by doing nothing. But it also affects other players, as they can hardly kill a random pug if they have a healer - they have just enough survivability not to die together, but they still die in 1 second solo. It's just an illusion of PvP; it's a game where you create a 40k HP build in order NOT TO DIE (imagine dying in a video game, lol) rather than to kill other players. I saw enough 40-50k HP players in IC recently who were just farming bosses for the weekly.
If Vengeance has these 3 points, it will be awesome. But these loadouts make me think it will be another homogenization - friendly for newcomers but an absolute disaster for old players. So if it goes live, I can only wish that ZOS finds more new players than the old ones they will lose.
imPDA
1
Re: Subclassing: How to make skills not look jarring together?
It honestly can't though.Adding skill styles can solve this!!
While some players might be okay with skills looking visually similar, having cohesion is about more than appearances. It just makes zero sense to have a character with these skill line combinations. They were never designed to work with other class skills and you can tell. Every class is distinctive right down to the bones. Combat and playstyle are different, the classes suit different alignments and player characters in a RP sense too.
A full set of skill styles as you suggest would be a significant undertaking. They would also cost us a fortune in crowns, because that isn't something we'd get for free.
Sadly, I can't imagine ZOS are interested in this issue either. Pure class players seem to be mostly ignored and nerfed whenever a subclass build gets too OP.Re: Vengeance test key metric - player interest
Man, these arguments against Vengeance are weird. Nobody is going in naked to veteran trials. There's multiple times more normal mode trials listed in the group finder than there are veteran trials. So, for PvE, normal mode is more popular than veteran. Why? Because normal mode is easier, and you can literally enter them naked, starting at level 10, and have a fair chance at completing. I'd argue most of the PvE population already prefers "template PvE" where "gear doesn't matter."
I mean, I can see why some PvPers are upset that "veteran Cyrodiil" is being taken down for 1 week, but Cyrodiil is also more complicated than instanced trials, and its nature of being a shared server with hundred of players means it cannot be compared to instanced trials, of which only 12 players are needed. Cyrodiil is actually more similar to the PvE overworld, which is scaled to your level and "equalized" to the point of being trivial.
Well said.
I was wondering about this sudden raging at PvEers, but I guess it must be down to Vengeance haters running out of arguments.
The arguments against vengeance are valid, but don't give any reason to stop vengeance.
- "I dont like the combat, its stale or boring" - Well the mechanical combat or the building? The combat is nearly the same, all its core elements are there. Building wise though you are limited to only the skill system which does have a fair bit of variability considering we only have access to one system. If you want to play dot builds it is possible, healer possible, direct possible, melee possible. If I could make a melee 2h dizzy stamsorc work without the ability to change regen, there is enough there.
- "Combat is just a numbers game" - are we going to pretend that zerg groups and ball groups dont outpower solo players? What about the fact that group sets can provide upwards of 5k+ weapon damage when solo player sets can at best reach around 700wd with a cooldown.
- "zos is going to implement this as is" - Highly unlikely and just a hysterical conspiracy at this point. Doing this across the board would make it so pvp players which make up a significant portion of the consistent playerbase would suddenly not need ESO+ or any DLC chapters. The only way current unmorphed skills vengeance gets released on live would be as a learning campaign to replace the dysfunctional u50 and nocp campaigns. Even then we would still see more vengeance tests because live cyrodil is on the verge of needing another pop cap reduction.
- "The test failed, it still lagged lets stop" - The point of the test is TO CAUSE LAG.....they did that successfully already and measured it. How would that ever be a failed test or a reason to stop. The test did exactly what it was supposed to do, if anything it is more reason to keep developing and test more systems. Not to mention that lag was only experienced around the 4x live population, which gives alot of headroom to start adding systems back into the game. Current live estimates are around 100 players per faction compared to the release quoted peak of around 600 players per faction during testing. If you followed the data streams they said vengeance supported around 4x the live 100 players consistently and showed the fluctuations of performance being stabilized. Even if the data helps them not lag with abysmal live population that would be a success.
Re: a, so to say "leave me alone" mode for peole, have to go to cyro or the IC woulb be nice
I slot the "Surrender" and "Bow Flourish" emotes when fishing in IC/Cyr. When someone approaches, I use surrender, then block. If they pass me by, or fish with me, I use the bow emote.
I get passed by/ignored about 50% of the time. If your RNG isn't horrible (which, granted, sometimes it is) It doesn't take *that* long to get the achievements with the CP in.
Just set the mental switch to PvP/might get killed. And make sure you're not carrying any tel var, and put on a podcast (or your distraction of choice).
I get passed by/ignored about 50% of the time. If your RNG isn't horrible (which, granted, sometimes it is) It doesn't take *that* long to get the achievements with the CP in.
Just set the mental switch to PvP/might get killed. And make sure you're not carrying any tel var, and put on a podcast (or your distraction of choice).
Re: a, so to say "leave me alone" mode for peole, have to go to cyro or the IC woulb be nice
I want all the skins and mounts awarded for completing vet trials without having to fight a single mob there...
I want all the nice furnishings from scrying without having to ride in circles for what sometimes feels like an eternity...
Is it mayhem already?
I want all the nice furnishings from scrying without having to ride in circles for what sometimes feels like an eternity...
Is it mayhem already?
Re: Vengeance 4 perk and loadout system livestream announcement
MincMincMinc wrote: »So with the 9/11/25 livestream we got insight that they will now have a perk system which aims to replicate having passive skills and stat set bonus choices. There is also a loadout system which are just premade setups for new players to quickly pick perks without hand choosing. At first I was worried the loadout system was not going to let us choose perks by ourselves, but it seems that is not the case and you can individually choose passives.
This is actually very smart and speeds up testing times since they don't need to make passives and balance them for each class, keeping the systems all separate. This also points more towards vengeance not being a permanent solution as a permanent solution would have involved balancing out each class with passives like live has. These systems appear to be quick throwaway menus for the purpose of testing.
We shall see on pts, but this should also mean that skills will scale and change with stats. So once they finish with basic systems like achievements and leaderboards we may see them move on to implement mundus, food, gear, enchants, potions.
Why are you promoting vengeance so hard all the time. Every thread on vengeance is the same three or four people talking amongst themselves about the virtues of vengeance and the lost cause you'd like live cyrodiil to become. It's like you're trying to push the live system we already have out of the conversation.
What's going on here?
Re: Update 48 Livestream live reaction
PvE weekly leaderboards going to be account based rather than class or whatever.
Less incentive to repeat content now, thanks zos.
Less incentive to repeat content now, thanks zos.