WolfingHour wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

zmobie_dementor wrote: »

From my experience so far in MoL (and, briefly, vMoL) everything a post-TG NB tank can do, a DK can do better.The increase on resource return in the latest patch is laughable and not nearly enough: dropping block to light attack is a death sentence in vMoL against the boss that reduces your armour rating to 0..

i don't see a major problem here, i don't want all classes to perform equally in all fields, ruins the purpose of classes in the first place. Bosses dont attack every .1 sec, its not THAT challeging to land a light attack and put block again in half a second

It's really not a good idea to dtop your shield in trails considering latency and one shot light attacks ftom bosses.

As for SA, can we have ripost, valkin skoria meteorites and nerien'erh crystals to proc it since they are not dots?

Latency is another issue though... You can't balance gameplay around bad ping, you have to assume that the performance will be good, and fix your code if it's not good enough

its not THAT challeging to land a light attack and put block again in half a second

Even if this were a valid point (which it isn't, when it comes to trials tanking), one light attack is going to give me approx 1K stamina. Do you even tank on a NB.

Earlier I said I was optimistic about this mid-PTS tweak made to Siphoning Attacks, but I was assuming a significant change. A 10% increase in resources is not significant. NB tank stamina regeneration is going to be a joke going forward. Tank diversity will continue to decrease as only one class will have ways to restore stamina while blocking.

Another joke is the Leeching Strikes change. Just a minuscule and irrelevant change to diffuse our complaints without addressing any of the issues we're bringing up. How much feedback can possibly have been involved in this change? Did you just pick a random suggestion relating to Leeching Strikes and put it into place? WHO IS THIS CHANGE FOR? This morph continues to be worthless for stamina regeneration which is the reason we would slot either morph of the skill.

Tested the change to SA with my NB PvE tank. Got on average extra 200 stamina once per ten second. The change to SA was too insignificant. It's a 10% increase to something that procs at 10% rate. I still suggest to increase the ability proc chance to 20%.

Hardest combination is to survive boss and few adds. The boss requires blocking but the adds cause same drain as the boss, easily tripling the drain, but not yet enough mobs to switch to Sap Essence.

I'll have to do more testing, but my initial feel is that the additional return they added in 2.3.2 is still not sufficient to offset the resource needs in large pulls. Night blades lack a class standard ability that does area CCS, and caltrops remains a huge stamina burn. The really need to up the proc % given so many sources of proc have been removed. Not every nb tank build has a deep magicka pool to spam sap enough times to trigger a proc. It would almost seem like tanking with a bow for bombard might be a workaound, but going away from double sword and board severely limits utility of heroic slash in my build. Also while I think Legolas is an awesome Tolkien character... A tank he is not.

What they've changed is an ok start, but it looks horribly insufficient on paper. We need more procs or the return of proc on DoT at its former levels. SA wasn't broke before, so the changes made to it for Thieves Guild still seem ludicrous.

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

lonewolf26 wrote: »

I'll have to do more testing, but my initial feel is that the additional return they added in 2.3.2 is still not sufficient to offset the resource needs in large pulls. Night blades lack a class standard ability that does area CCS, and caltrops remains a huge stamina burn. The really need to up the proc % given so many sources of proc have been removed. Not every nb tank build has a deep magicka pool to spam sap enough times to trigger a proc. It would almost seem like tanking with a bow for bombard might be a workaound, but going away from double sword and board severely limits utility of heroic slash in my build. Also while I think Legolas is an awesome Tolkien character... A tank he is not.

What they've changed is an ok start, but it looks horribly insufficient on paper. We need more procs or the return of proc on DoT at its former levels. SA wasn't broke before, so the changes made to it for Thieves Guild still seem ludacris.

Agreed with you and @Autolycus. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to test anything extensively yet, but hopefully others can add their experience.

The other morph of Heroic Slash might be beneficial for stamina NB tanks, as they could hit 3 enemies at once while using 1h/shield (assuming it works like we think and can even proc SA on the extra hits). Putting bow on off-bar sounds hilarious, but could work if you use it as a buff and kiting bar (pretty much what I do with resto staff on my off-bar). You could have Mirage for dodge+minor resist buffs, Bombard for CC and SA procs, Debilitate/Cripple for speed buff, Inner Rage for ranged taunt, then 5th slot and ult are flexible.

Forsaking SA entirely, another option is Consuming Trap (Soul Trap morph), but it requires killing the target to get stats back, so not good for long boss fights without many adds.

Thanks for the insight.

Prior to IC and the initial changes to SA that removed the toggle function and turned it into a timed buff, I used Deep Slash (morph of Low Slash that hits 3 targets) on a regular basis for resource management. Back then, SA had a ~30% chance to proc for each target hit. This meant that using Deep Slash was *almost* a guaranteed proc on SA and it was great for sustain. When they changed the %change to proc on SA to ~10% (I forget exactly the chance off the top of my head) it severely reduced the effectiveness of this particular strategy.

That being said, when this news of SA not being able to proc from DoT ticks, the first thing I considered was switching back to Deep Slash in lieu of Caltrops. These two skills are clearly not a 1-for-1 trade, as the skills are so vastly different in terms of cost and the utility each skill provides. Speaking strictly from the perspective of SA procs, however, I think that on paper Deep Slash still has quite a bit of potential.

A ~30% chance to proc SA on a cast is still pretty good IMO. It's not nearly as glorious as having a guaranteed proc obviously, but having it be virtually guaranteed doesn't speak much in terms of balance anyway. Applying Maim to 3 targets with one skill is incredibly useful, because less damage dealt means less damage we need to mitigate, which in turn also means lower stamina consumption. Since it has a significantly lower cost compared to caltrops, it has the potential to be cast far more often than caltrops (offering more versatility on a case-by-case basis). As with any skill, however, I note that knowing when to use the skill is a major factor in it's usefulness. At this point, of course, everything here is purely theoretical, as I haven't put it into practice on the PTS yet.

Edit: For the sake of comparison, I felt it was necessary to add in what would be lost on a build that traded caltrops for deep slash. Caltrops has a very large area of effect, and the snare is incredibly useful in large trash pulls. The initial cast of caltrops also serves as a "pre-taunt" aggro generator that will be forgone, and is not made up with the use of deep slash, which means sap essence is the go-to for that "pre-taunt". This is okay for most scenarios imo, but it doesn't make up for the lack of an AoE CC ability available to NBs.

zmobie_dementor wrote: »

@Autolycus I was using light attacks exclusively to proc SA before I got caltrops and had no problem with it on any encounter except the Manti - I can drop block against the Serpent, but I haven't been able to take an unblocked hit from the Manti with both phys/spell resistance at just under 35K unless I stack enough attributes into health to severely compromise my magicka pool. If I drop block in that fight, I get hit; it doesn't matter that Big Ugly is just standing there glaring at me when I do it. Even if as I suspect latency is to blame (I get all sorts of lag spikes and client crashes while inside Craglorn trials) and I'm not reacting to what's actually happening when I drop block, that's something I have to account for in my build before heading into SO. So as far as I'm concerned, what the other person said is still not a valid point. It would be good if the game behaved the exact same way for everyone as long as they're doing the same things, but it doesn't.

The whole point of build diversity is that we should be able to accomplish things in a number of ways as long as the numbers on what Person A is doing match the numbers on what Person B is doing with different attribute spread/skills/rotations/armour sets/etc. The current SA nerf makes it more or less a requirement for NB tanks to be able to drop block and get at least 3 successive light attacks off during any boss encounter -- multiple times, if we want to keep our stamina above at least 50%, while taunting the boss and any hard-hitting adds so our DDs don't get one-shotted. If I want to be a one-trick pony, I can play a stamblade DD with nothing but Snipe and Relentless Focus on my bar.

This is a fair point. When SO first hit live, I was among the many tanks who needed to re-evaluate skill and gear choice against the Mantikora. Things have changed a lot since then, for me at least, but that doesn't mean that the Mantikora can't still serve an instructive purpose. I too found it difficult initially to maintain resources against the Manti, for the exact reason you stated: Every time I would drop my block to weave, I would get hit.

When first approaching this issue, I of course asked myself why I was still getting hit when I was clearly trying to time it appropriately. As time went on and I gained more experience with tanking the Manti, I realized that, despite believing I was weaving/blocking at the appropriate times, I was not. Ultimately my timing was off, and it was because of my timing (and lack of experience) that I was doing a poor job of managing stamina, and getting hit between blocks or while weapon-swapping. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is your issue too. I expect you would know your build better than I do, because it's clear we play NB tanks a little differently.

Ultimately what I'm getting at, which is not a discredit to your concern, is that, from my experience, LA weaving as a NB tank is possible and effective in all trials, including hardmode clears, speed runs, etc.

Very, very rarely do I find myself in a situation that merits multiple LAs between blocks to maintain my resources. I don't want to presume that you want or need my advice, and you didn't ask for it. But I believe that this issue is something that can be accommodated with minor adjustments - or "buffer changes" as I like to put it - that would offer more efficient use of stamina in lieu of some of your resistances. Again, not trying to tell you how to play. I assume you know far more about your specific build/playstyle than I will simply because I play the same class. As you mentioned, two builds should be able to accomplish the same thing in different ways, and for the most part, I agree with that sentiment. That does not mean, however, that you are incapable of accommodating more LAs into your normal rotation.

The benefit from LAs as a NB is far too substantial to forego imho, especially if you're already keeping your SA active. I feel that it has always been a necessity to drop block as NB tank to weave LAs; I don't think this nerf to SA makes that more or less true, it's simply the nature of the class (I might note here that anyone who hates NB tanks for perma-blocking could learn something from this point. Technically, a NB tank is *almost* never perma-blocking, including large zergs in Cyrodiil. Even having access to caltrops+SA doesn't give one bottomless resources against a zerg). One of the beautiful things about NB tanks is this ability to maintain resources through light attacks instead of heavy attacks. Where a DK might need to do something like cast talons, take a few steps back to drop block and regain stam, or throw in a heavy attack, we simply just light attack. It's much more efficient, and that's what makes NB tanks unique from other classes.

Edit: Just for clarification, I don't believe it's necessary to constantly weave light attacks throughout every pull, against every mob, etc. I note the difference between being a necessity from a general perspective as it pertains to the mechanics of the build, versus it being necessary 100% of the time.

zmobie_dementor wrote: »

No, that's a fair point, a lack of experience is definitely a thing for me -- I've only been playing the game since June 2015 and there just aren't a lot of people who want to run SO with a tank who can't already do it with their eyes closed. In lieu of actual practice I have spent a lot of time watching videos of all the trials bosses and paid careful attention to the windows of opportunity for dropping block, but while I can do it on the rest, it has never worked for me on Manti. I can only clear that fight in permablock mode. With Path + SA as it is now, I'm in OK shape for stam as long as the bleed doesn't get me, but come TG that won't be an option, and I'm not sure that I'll ever find enough people who'll be willing to wipe over and over, in content that doesn't even give decent rewards unless it's the weekly, while I try to learn-by-doing when it's /really/ safe to drop block in that one fight.

So -- I do appreciate the advice, though I'm not sure what you mean by not needing to do multiple light attacks -- if it's a simple situation of me vs one vet dungeon boss, a single LA at a time is fine (and most vet bosses don't hit all that hard with their own LAs anyway), but right now on the PTS, a single LA restores a bit less than the cost of one Pierce Armour for me, and if I just had to Pierce Armour 3 things (e.g. Ibomez and 2 of his atros), I need to be able to at least restore that much, and quickly, hence 3 successive LAs or LA/Block 3 times. Which is kind of a challenge with the boss and both adds hitting me and the boss also possibly tenderising an ally. Add to that the cost of a Heroic Slash, and it's all downhill, even with a constant tripot. I have a lot invested in block mitigation so recouping block cost is easier; it's the multiple stam taunts that get me in trouble, especially during prolonged encounters where the adds aren't dying fast enough. Inner Fire is of course on my bar but it doesn't apply Fracture/Breach, so I have to also cast Mark, which gets messy if I'm surrounded, plus that combo will drain my magicka in no time if I need to use it on more than 3 things. I do agree with your point about LAs in general -- I found them very effective before I had caltrops and the correct morph of Path -- just not sure how I can manage to keep my stam up with just one LA between blocks post-TG assuming there is no Templar throwing me a shard every once in a while.

I have a much better understanding of the limitations you face now, and many of these limitations you have described are valid concerns for any NB tank, whether new or experienced. I should probably start by clarifying what I meant by multiple light attacks. By this I mean that only on very rare occasions do I find myself using consecutive light attacks in between blocks.

For example, it is standard for me to do something like this in any given encounter:
block>LA>block>LA

However, it very rare for me to do something like this:
block>LA>LA>LA>block.

I believe one of your concerns, and rightfully so, is that the time in between the two blocks in the latter example is too long, and can be quite punishing. After all, that's the point of using a shield. The former example is something I do on virtually every pull, regardless of AoE or single-target. The trick to making the former example seamless, and therefore limiting your exposure to incoming damage when your shield is down, is animation cancelling.

"Whaaaaat? Animation Cancelling as a tank?! No way!" Of course I jest a bit, but I do believe that mastering ani cancelling as a NB tank is paramount. The better at it you are, the more efficient you are with your resources, and the more able you are to minimize your exposure to damage received while your shield is down.

Your concern with burning through your stamina with taunts and not being able to recover them immediately with light attacks is a valid concern, truly. Unfortunately, this is kind of the nature of the build. The best way to accommodate this in my experience is through reduced cost stats, either through CP or jewelry glyphs. If you just started back in June, there's a fair chance that you've still got a way to go for CP, and it's entirely possible that simply having more CP will completely solve the problem for you. Then again, maybe not.

What I can say, though, is that stacking mitigation in the form of "increases the amount you can block by X" and "reduces the cost of blocking by X" are very effective for NB tanks (e.g. Footman, Defensive Stance). This is true for any tank of course, but in a class where resource management is favored over the ability to self-buff for resistances, there are inherent efficiencies that we, as NB tanks, take advantage of more easily.

One other recommendation I could make that may improve your tanking experience would be to ease up just a bit on your physical and spell resistances. You are currently sitting comfortably at the hard caps, which is only necessary if you can't reach those caps through the use of skills and passives. If you give up 5-10k armor and spell resistance and put that into something more resource-efficient, your sustain will become much more tolerable. You shouldn't worry too much about losing the resistances, because you can get them back by using a shadow skill (to gain major ward and resolve) or through other skills like Immovable from Heavy Armor. Also, the only bosses that I recall at this moment that actually make you consider having your spell and armor resist hard capped are Molag Kena and Mantikora, and there are other alternatives to accommodating this over resistances, like self-healing, shields, and sometimes even just taking a few steps back forces them to miss the attack due to range restrictions.

Edit: Forgot to mention one thing. As NBs we have access to Double Take / Mirage which is a huge source of mitigation. I would almost justify the 5-10k armor & spell resist I recommended you give up just by running the Major Evasion buff. You could do the same thing with Elude/Shuffle from medium armor as any tank, but the key difference is that Double Take costs magicka, so you don't have to ration off your stam to keep it active.

helediron wrote: »

I can see ZOS is careful with SA, and probably trying to not make it too good for DDs.

I would suggest again the idea from @Laquey . Put a small, 10% of damage done stamina leech to caster from dual shade hits, even when blocking. My shades hit about 750 each, so they would leech 2*75=150 stamina per 2 seconds.

I can see ZOS is careful with SA, and probably trying to not make it too good for DDs.
I agree with that as possible reason for the miniscule buff SA got.
Fact is that both DD as Tanks use the same SA.

So they bandaid SA into something that is no fish and no flesh

Giving shades a small stamina return would be very good for us tanks, but it is another bandaid.

I think that the easiest and most elegant way to get out of the dilemma of NB DD too OP if SA returns too much on the one hand, and NB Tanks getting too little on the other hand...

Is to use one Siphoning Strikes morph for Tanks and one morph for DD.

(their attempt to get the unused Leeching Strike morph viable with increasing the selfheal from 2% to 3% is an illusion)

Autolycus wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

I can see ZOS is careful with SA, and probably trying to not make it too good for DDs.

I would suggest again the idea from @Laquey . Put a small, 10% of damage done stamina leech to caster from dual shade hits, even when blocking. My shades hit about 750 each, so they would leech 2*75=150 stamina per 2 seconds.

hrothbern wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

I can see ZOS is careful with SA, and probably trying to not make it too good for DDs.

I would suggest again the idea from @Laquey . Put a small, 10% of damage done stamina leech to caster from dual shade hits, even when blocking. My shades hit about 750 each, so they would leech 2*75=150 stamina per 2 seconds.

I can see ZOS is careful with SA, and probably trying to not make it too good for DDs.
I agree with that as possible reason for the miniscule buff SA got.
Fact is that both DD as Tanks use the same SA.

So they bandaid SA into something that is no fish and no flesh

Giving shades a small stamina return would be very good for us tanks, but it is another bandaid.

I think that the easiest and most elegant way to get out of the dilemma of NB DD too OP if SA returns too much on the one hand, and NB Tanks getting too little on the other hand...

Is to use one Siphoning Strikes morph for Tanks and one morph for DD.

(their attempt to get the unused Leeching Strike morph viable with increasing the selfheal from 2% to 3% is an illusion)

I think you're both right, truly. I like both of the suggestions you have made. Another alternative that I considered was kind of a hybrid between the two, actually. I propose that the Leeching Strikes morph, which everyone (that I've seen or talked to thus far) agrees is completely useless, has one additional benefit: "Reduces the cost of blocking by X."

The reason why devs are careful with SA is understandable and I agree with many of the above posts.

About Leeching Strikes, the idea about a block cost reduction is surely interesting.
I would add also the chance to proc it from bash.

Anyway Leeching Strikes in 2.3.2 is still really the weak and undesiderable morph of Siphoning Strikes.
The malus to weapon and spell damage is too huge, while the benefit is too low.

According to me there are two options for Leeching Strikes:

1) Keep the Weapon/Spell damage malus but adding a chance in percentage to trigger some restore health from all non basic attacks
2) Remove the Weapon/Spell damage malus adding bash to light/heavy attacks as source to proc it or a block cost reduction as suggested by @Autolycus or block & bash cost reduction.

The best for LS would be also increasing the health recovered to 4% and let it work also against damage shields.
Maybe it would be too much, but at least SA would have finally a contender as morph.

Autolycus wrote: »

Edit: Forgot to mention one thing. As NBs we have access to Double Take / Mirage which is a huge source of mitigation. I would almost justify the 5-10k armor & spell resist I recommended you give up just by running the Major Evasion buff. You could do the same thing with Elude/Shuffle from medium armor as any tank, but the key difference is that Double Take costs magicka, so you don't have to ration off your stam to keep it active.

Just curious, what gear do you run?
I run hist bark so have major evasion while blocking (which incidently prevents the major expedition from double take if ever used- not sure if the rest of the ability works or not) but obviously this doesn't help with LA weaves.
My current setup;
5p Hist bark
5p Footmans
Then either 2p Engine Guardian/ Blood Spawn / Nerien'eths depending on content

Autolycus wrote: »

SublimeSparo wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Edit: Forgot to mention one thing. As NBs we have access to Double Take / Mirage which is a huge source of mitigation. I would almost justify the 5-10k armor & spell resist I recommended you give up just by running the Major Evasion buff. You could do the same thing with Elude/Shuffle from medium armor as any tank, but the key difference is that Double Take costs magicka, so you don't have to ration off your stam to keep it active.

Just curious, what gear do you run?
I run hist bark so have major evasion while blocking (which incidently prevents the major expedition from double take if ever used- not sure if the rest of the ability works or not) but obviously this doesn't help with LA weaves.
My current setup;
5p Hist bark
5p Footmans
Then either 2p Engine Guardian/ Blood Spawn / Nerien'eths depending on content

Currently I run:
5 Footman
5 Leeching
2 Endurance (which I have considered switching, but won't bother to do so until TG is released)

I used to run Hist Bark in lieu of Leeching, but when they changed it so that Hist Bark gives Major Evasion (and therefore no longer stacked with Double Take) I chose to swap the gear instead of the skill.

Ooo leeching set. Sounds fun. Does the Leeching damage proc happen to proc SA? The new Bahraha set seems comparable, and appears it will come in Heavy, so that could be worth looking into. I gear my Argonian Magicka NB tank quite differently, using 5pc Juggernaut, 3pc Willpower, 2pc Malubeth, 2pc Lamae. Big burst self-heals from both Juggernaut and Malubeth that scale with my spell power and get additional benefit from stacking healing received. The idea is that the boost to healing received and maximizing my self-heals offsets the diminishing returns of Footman's set while also making life easier on the group's healer.

Actually there was an old post Gina made (year and a half ago or so) stating that Hist Bark didn't stack with other dodge buff abilities (was posted several months before 1.6 was introduced). I also prefer the Mirage morph in order to get both Minor resistance buffs that are also on a long timer. For speed, I rely on either Twisting/Refreshing Path or Cripple/Debilitate.

Unfortunately, this nerf to SA will probably push more NB tanks to Engine Guardian to help ensure being able to manage resources

I was mid veteran ranks when this change hit PTS, and leveling as a NB magicka tank. So, with some guildies I started practicing on live by simply not using twisting path like I had been. I didn't have caltrops anyway. My healer was NOT happy. Sure, some of the posts above this are from people tanking as NB with endgame gear and they have both more invested and more gear options. I don't. I'm out. It just wasn't fun. I've been tanking since EQ1 days, but I don't mind other roles either. I respeced majicka dps @V14 and am not looking back. I wanted to put this out here since it is the view of an experienced tank, but one who wasn't at endgame, but close, that mainly tanked for pugs and casual friends. I'll break out my issues in a bullet list:

1. The big one: resource management like this isn't fun. I am fine with challenges, but I am retired, this is my entertainment not my e-peen lengthener. My friends/family are good players, but casual. If it's not fun, we don't.
2. I have played on and off since beta. The block stam nerf is just stupid for PvE. It's not fun, see #1, see numerous threads on it. It hurts casuals and puggers most.
3. This hurts build diversity for tanks. Not just by class, which is fairly obvious. But now everything on your bar needs to be there with the stamina resource issue as priority.
4. This hurts build diversity for healers. Shards suddenly became more interesting, the healer I ran with in guild groups was a templar. Before, I didn't care. After practicing this change, I would not want to pug a dungeon I wasn't familiar with, without shards. That would be not fun for more than me.

I like tanking. I like tanking for pugs and casual groups. I'm out as a NB tank. Perhaps dedicated endgame NB tanks can find a way, but for me, it lacks fun, so I have no incentive. I understand the need for more balance in PvP than PvE, since balance affects fun even more in that. But, sometimes "is it balanced" and "is it fun" are in conflict in design. This is one of those times.

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Below is a way to change Leeching Strikes into the tanking morph while keeping base ability and Siphoning Attacks the same. Also, note that the values are just suggestions, and mainly help to illustrate balancing mechanisms. Changes are bolded:

• Leeching Strikes: Basic attacks restore 600 Magicka, Stamina, and Health. All other direct damage attacks have a 30% chance to restore 2181 Stamina and Magicka. While active, you deal 20% less damage. 2175 Magicka cost. 30 second duration.

New effects and rationales:

1. Lower stat return on basic attacks than SA since tanks try to limit dropping block, which also promotes DPS using SA for animation canceling. I wonder if eliminating the basic attack stat return could even be an option to further create a tradeoff. The health return on basic attacks does distinguish LS from SA, but is nonetheless essentially fluff because the values are a fraction of most HoT ticks and thus are inconsequential.
2. Increased proc chance to give tanks way to keep resources up now that it is only possible to get 1 proc chance at a time per mob (ie can't stack GTAoEDoTs with direct damage attacks). With this percentage, slightly less than 1/3 of your direct damage attacks would return resources (an amount that is often less than the cost of the ability itself). Depending on how effective this is, the recent ~10% increase to the value of the SA proc stat return could be reduced back to pre-2.3.2 values (1944 stam/mag), especially if the proc value was increased somewhat further. Also, if the basic attack part was eliminated, the proc could also include a %-based health return, which would benefit tanks since it scales of their higher max health pool.
3. Significant damage penalty to further promote use by tanks and create tradeoff for better resource management.
4. Longer duration because the buff timer mini-game is terrible design, and which would also make it roughly correspond to Mirage/Double Take's buff length. Longer duration also helps with resource management because it allows you to more easily recoup cost of ability itself and also cast it twice as less.
5. Toggle removed to be consistent with ZOS's overall strategy of eliminating toggles from the game.

Given the tradeoffs and possibilities I described, another option could be:

• Leeching Strikes: All direct damage attacks (not including basic attacks) have a 35% chance to restore 3000 Stamina and Magicka, and heal you for 5% of your maximum Health. While active, you deal 25% less damage. 2175 Magicka cost. 30 second duration.

Again, numbers are just suggestions that show the balance concepts. The value of the stat return for this is roughly equivalent to combining the value of the basic attack stat return to the original proc value, which could happen for slightly more than 1/3 of your direct damage attacks. Now that mass proccing is very difficult to achieve, it would also be an option to return the stat return to be %-based of this morph. To give an idea of that, pre-IC update SA returned 15% of resources on proc. Basic attacks/animation canceling have no incentive since dropping block is dangerous to tanks and their groups. The health return is a heal and thus benefits from our +healing given/taken passives, and also scales of health, which caters to tanks; however, the value is still rather low compared to HoTs. Slightly larger damage penalty to create further tradeoff.

WolfingHour wrote: »

Hechicera wrote: »

I was mid veteran ranks when this change hit PTS, and leveling as a NB magicka tank. So, with some guildies I started practicing on live by simply not using twisting path like I had been. I didn't have caltrops anyway. My healer was NOT happy. Sure, some of the posts above this are from people tanking as NB with endgame gear and they have both more invested and more gear options. I don't. I'm out. It just wasn't fun. I've been tanking since EQ1 days, but I don't mind other roles either. I respeced majicka dps @V14 and am not looking back. I wanted to put this out here since it is the view of an experienced tank, but one who wasn't at endgame, but close, that mainly tanked for pugs and casual friends. I'll break out my issues in a bullet list:

1. The big one: resource management like this isn't fun. I am fine with challenges, but I am retired, this is my entertainment not my e-peen lengthener. My friends/family are good players, but casual. If it's not fun, we don't.
2. I have played on and off since beta. The block stam nerf is just stupid for PvE. It's not fun, see #1, see numerous threads on it. It hurts casuals and puggers most.
3. This hurts build diversity for tanks. Not just by class, which is fairly obvious. But now everything on your bar needs to be there with the stamina resource issue as priority.
4. This hurts build diversity for healers. Shards suddenly became more interesting, the healer I ran with in guild groups was a templar. Before, I didn't care. After practicing this change, I would not want to pug a dungeon I wasn't familiar with, without shards. That would be not fun for more than me.

I like tanking. I like tanking for pugs and casual groups. I'm out as a NB tank. Perhaps dedicated endgame NB tanks can find a way, but for me, it lacks fun, so I have no incentive. I understand the need for more balance in PvP than PvE, since balance affects fun even more in that. But, sometimes "is it balanced" and "is it fun" are in conflict in design. This is one of those times.

I have said it before and will say it again the over reliance on shards and/EG is not good balance.

Agreed.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel