Siphoning Attacks Feedback: In-depth tanking perspective [DB Update]

Dubhliam

I vote SA changes remain as they are.

Promote LS as the go-to skill for tanks.

I believe LS should remain toggle, and have a % to grant resources for each blocked attack. If the NB is dedicated to tanking, the HA passives , S&B passives , CPs and enchantments should reduce the block cost enough for the LS to replenish stamina at a steady rate.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Dubhliam wrote: »

I vote SA changes remain as they are.

Promote LS as the go-to skill for tanks.

I believe LS should remain toggle, and have a % to grant resources for each blocked attack. If the NB is dedicated to tanking, the HA passives , S&B passives , CPs and enchantments should reduce the block cost enough for the LS to replenish stamina at a steady rate.

Very interesting idea.

WolfingHour

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I vote SA changes remain as they are.

Promote LS as the go-to skill for tanks.

I believe LS should remain toggle, and have a % to grant resources for each blocked attack. If the NB is dedicated to tanking, the HA passives , S&B passives , CPs and enchantments should reduce the block cost enough for the LS to replenish stamina at a steady rate.

Very interesting idea.

Agree, although I did came around the idea of not having a toggle.

hrothbern

Playing now for a while since the TG patch, the effect of not getting SA procs anymore from Caltrops, Twisting Path etc is substantial.
The 10% increase on the SA proc we got from the devs is very much welcome, but the hit on resource gains for a NB Siphoning Tank does hurt.

I lowered my Armor mitigation to get more Magicka Recovery and that's why I have the following suggestion to compensate for the SA proc nerf that we got:

The Shadow passive Shadow Barrier gives the buffs Major Resolve and Major Ward during 4 seconds + 1 second per piece of Heavy Armor.
With 5 pieces of HA this adds up to 9 seconds, which is not in line with 15 second durations of the Taunt and Siphoning Attacks.
So if you have a Shadow ability in a 15 second rotation, you have 9 seconds Major Resolve/Ward up and 6 seconds not.

DK and Sorc get a much longer duration for their class line Majord Resolve/Ward buff, and can synchronise that much better in their rotations.

To the point:
My suggestion is to increase the duration in Shadow Barrier from 1 second to 2 seconds per piece of HA used as compensation for the SA proc nerf.
This brings the duration of the Major Resolve/Ward buff to 4+10=14 seconds for wearing 5 pieces of HA, and will make the NB Tank more viable.

Dubhliam

Yesterday I just geared my NB into a tanking gear after I finally leveled him to v16.

Two vet dungeons, no resource problems as of yet.
Atronarch mundus of course.

I would however prefer if they made the LA morph a go-to skill for NB tanks.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

hrothbern wrote: »

Playing now for a while since the TG patch, the effect of not getting SA procs anymore from Caltrops, Twisting Path etc is substantial.
The 10% increase on the SA proc we got from the devs is very much welcome, but the hit on resource gains for a NB Siphoning Tank does hurt.

I lowered my Armor mitigation to get more Magicka Recovery and that's why I have the following suggestion to compensate for the SA proc nerf that we got:

The Shadow passive Shadow Barrier gives the buffs Major Resolve and Major Ward during 4 seconds + 1 second per piece of Heavy Armor.
With 5 pieces of HA this adds up to 9 seconds, which is not in line with 15 second durations of the Taunt and Siphoning Attacks.
So if you have a Shadow ability in a 15 second rotation, you have 9 seconds Major Resolve/Ward up and 6 seconds not.

DK and Sorc get a much longer duration for their class line Majord Resolve/Ward buff, and can synchronise that much better in their rotations.

To the point:
My suggestion is to increase the duration in Shadow Barrier from 1 second to 2 seconds per piece of HA used as compensation for the SA proc nerf.
This brings the duration of the Major Resolve/Ward buff to 4+10=14 seconds for wearing 5 pieces of HA, and will make the NB Tank more viable.

Definitely agree with your Shadow Barrier duration idea, that would be a much more tank-friendly solution. I'm also having more trouble keeping resources up, and dropping block to animation cancel has gotten me killed a few times as well when several attacks inevitably stack up all at once. Basically on trash pulls I never block (unless a see a Heavy Attack or other knockdown/back attack coming), and just light attack weave Sap Essence and out-heal the incoming damage. Once there are only 2-3 mobs left I will block more and switch to Swallow Soul. During boss fights, it really depends on what boss I'm facing and when/how I can afford to drop block to light attack weave. Overall, in addition to simply blocking less and relying on heals to off-set incoming damage (and plus to a magicka build, since spell power increases your self-healing), my resource management now comes from the Light Attack part of Siphoning Attacks, and less from the 10% proc it seems like. So basically I've moved to a DPS-style of tanking where my default mode of combat is animation canceling instead of blocking.

Strangely enough, this strains my magicka more than my stamina! With points into block cost reduction and tumbling (and 17k stamina pool), I almost never have stamina issues now that I'm blocking less, but because I'm animation canceling magicka abilities I can run out pretty quickly if SA drops, I'm out of basic attack range, or I get a bad run of SA procs. (magicka pool is 30k).

@Autolycus said in a post yesterday he/she is not having any problems with resources, however, so we need to hear that secret.

Autolycus

I have a unique issue with stamina management in Maw of Lorkhaj against the Sun caster adds when they drop those large snare+silence AoEs. Other than that, I don't have any issues, but I don't notice a significant difference in the way I'm setup compared to what I'm seeing the rest of you doing in your builds. The builds I'm seeing are very similar to what I do, with only minor discrepancies in most cases.

I run a full 5set of Footman and equip Defensive Stance (on primary bar only) for mitigation. Up until MoL, I've never had any reason to take advantage of Shadow Barrier, so I haven't bothered keeping it up. I started doing this last night (pretty much for the first time, I've tested it before and found it to be unnecessary), simply because I changed gear and took a small hit to my armor/spell resistances. I know it sounds crazy, but I've never had a problem without ward/resolve before, so it never really mattered. Shadow Barrier helps reduce the cost of blocking indirectly by reducing the damage you receive, so there's another method of managing resources.

When it comes to AoE pulls, between Sap and Deep Slash, I rarely have any issues. I typically keep my Double Take active for the dodge and my SA active for the procs, but then pretty much all I do is Sap > light attack > Deep Slash > light attack > Sap > repeat. I don't always alternate like that; If I have a fair bit of magicka relative to stamina then I'll do Sap several times consecutively. I animation cancel everything. There are literally fractions of a second where my block isn't up; I block in between every light attack, sap, bar swap, swallow soul, taunting... literally everything. On rare occasions I do get hit during that fraction of a second, and it can be punishing when it does happen.

Truthfully, I don't do much else that you guys don't already do. You guys even have a bit of an advantage on me in terms of tanking, because I run a hybrid build. Not the type of hybrid build that people generally mean when they say that, rather a build that has a fully-dedicated tank spec, but can switch gear and skills to be a 20k+ dps spec. As such, my Mundus does not benefit tanking at all (I use Shadow for dps) and most of my tanking gear is Infused. My glyphs are for either mag/stam recovery. Almost all of my CP is allocated for my DPS spec, which works pretty well in terms of hybrid builds, so I loosely follow the meta for magblade dps CP allocation, with a few exceptions (i.e. reduced block cost, reduced stamina cost and some stam recovery, a bit of quick recovery, tumbling, and blessed).


Edited to list my stats, including food buff and Ward/Resolve:
Health: ~32k
Magicka: ~25k
Stamina: ~17k
Armor: ~29k
Spell Resist: ~33k
Mag. Recovery: ~900
Stam. Recovery: ~1k

5set Footman, 5set Bahraha's Curse, 2 Endurance

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Necroing this thread because it is relevant to some broad balance changes.

The removal of vet ranks has resulted in ~6% increase to all abilities, and increased cost of blocking (1, 2).

On paper and in-game, these increased costs are an indirect nerf to Siphoning Attacks. In my own time on the PTS, I more consistently ran into magicka issues in encounters where I did not have them on Live. Since SA only restores a flat amount, it now has to proc more often within the same amount of time (15 seconds) in order to recoup the same ability costs as we have now on live, with basic attacks (not including bashing, because that no longer procs it after TG) now restoring less of a percent of ability cost. Dropping block to sneak in basic attacks already poses a risk to the group, and now the payoff is even smaller. For a class/role that has to juggle numerous short duration buffs, these seemingly small changes do add up. While further changes to the Constitution passive might help offset the increased block cost (as indicated by a couple dev posts last week), the overall ability cost issue remains for NBs and other classes/builds whose sustain is reliant on abilities/bonuses that have fixed values.

Is this a build-crushing change? No, but it is still worth documenting as it could have a cumulative effect in later changes. It appears to be a byproduct of the larger game-wide change -- one which experienced or dedicated players will adapt to while it makes the role that much harder to fill for new or low-CP players.

@Wrobel

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Bump again in light of @Wrobel 's new post on the blocking/champion constellation changes. Having to sacrifice regen and cost reduction to maintain block cost particularly effects NBs who rely on Siphoning Attack's flat stat return value.

Helluin

Considering Wrobel's explanation and the changements to costs, some tweaks for Siphoning Attacks could be required.
Leeching Strikes isn't still an option for pretty every end game build; maybe some really niche builds not competitive could use it.

More than a little buff to Siphoning Attacks, I'd like to see the cost of stamina and magicka skills like on live server.
The removal of veteran ranks, as correctly already stated by @ThatNeonZebraAgain , resulted in a 6% increase.
The changements in Champion system for block reduction made this increase of cost for magicka and stamina skills even more noticeable.

luxfreak

hrothbern wrote: »

Besides the suggestions of @ThatNeonZebraAgain, what would also help the NB Tank is when Summon Shades (and Morphs) would count as a Taunt !!!
That does not strengthen the NB DPS,
but it does save the NB Tank casting an ability every 15 seconds.

Sooo, you want to only stand there for 15 seconds and do exactly nothing? keep blocking and turn of your brain?
That seems no fun to me.
And besides that, there are 2 reasons why i would REALY dislike that the shades apply a taunt.

1. I would be unable to use shades as a dps(not too much of a loss, but still a loss)
2. Nighblade Tanks would simply never apply the armor and spell resi debuff

For me, when i gonna start tanking next patch, my now planned rota contains shades, heroic, mirage, SA, Puncture/Inner Beast, Vigor/Funnel and a Warhorn as Ult.
You may now say, that doesnt fit on one bar, yes it doesnt. I plan on master switching as a tank.
Else i would simply get bored.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Helluin wrote: »

Considering Wrobel's explanation and the changements to costs, some tweaks for Siphoning Attacks could be required.
Leeching Strikes isn't still an option for pretty every end game build; maybe some really niche builds not competitive could use it.

More than a little buff to Siphoning Attacks, I'd like to see the cost of stamina and magicka skills like on live server.
The removal of veteran ranks, as correctly already stated by @ThatNeonZebraAgain , resulted in a 6% increase.
The changements in Champion system for block reduction made this increase of cost for magicka and stamina skills even more noticeable.

Precisely. I almost exactly replicated my Live build on the PTS and again found that I had more magicka issues than stamina (and this is with 34k magicka, 25k health, and 15k stamina). This held true even when I had zero block cost bonuses (no abilities, no enchants, no CP), and had 50 points into magician (magicka cost reduction) and Arcanist (magicka regen). The cost of abilities has overtaken the return of Siphoning Attacks, even when attacks large groups such as trash pulls in 4-man dungeons.

@Wrobel