The ends of the spectrum

Gargragrond · May 2015

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I've been hit with whip crits for 9.3K or so the other day continually. Not that it kills you, but it's insane to have a (almost) 10K insta damage spell that's spammable and non reflectable/dodgeable or whatever.

Well, never seen that - maybe it's possible, but that dk would probably be dead before he gets two whips in in any typical open world situation. Might be a nice curiosity in the duels though. Meanwhile, my whip hits for 3k, I chose not to use it

Anyway, I don't really like this extreme damage environment. I think it puts a bit too much emphasis on who has the best ping / who gets unlucky with latency spikes, weapon swap etc. I think there should be a bit more room for small imperfections so that good tactics is not completely nullified by missing a single action (for whatever reason).

DeanTheCat · May 2015

Muizer wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Max Stam Regen --- Stacks Stamina Regen and cost reductions to pretty much use any stamina based skill for free, coupled with "Permadodge" and "Permabreakfree". These sorts of build usually use a two handed weapon, spamming Critical Rush to deal damage before finishing with Executioner. Regeneration on such builds are often over 3k regen. Usually has round 2k Weapon Damage.

Are these figures realistic? Guess I'm doing something very wrong then . I mean, assuming jewelry is used for cost reduction (logical, as regen is the worse option since 1.6) I don't see where you could possible get anywhere near 3k regen from.

Yes, these figures are perfectly achievable for a good Nightblade. Heck, you don't even need Bosmer. Look at Soulac.

k2blader wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Max Spell Damage --- Stacks Spell Damage at the cost of pretty much every other stat, usually done by Sorcs to deal their famous 15k+ Crystal Fragments hits. These sorts of builds often have a huge magicka pool to back them up, so they will have huge shields as well. Assuming food is eaten to further boost damage, these sort of builds have round 800-1k magicka regen. Spell damage on such builds vary, based on if the player is a Sorc or not.

Do sorcs who stack spell damage really have "huge magicka pools"? If a sorc is stacking spell damage at the expense of magicka and magicka regen, he'll have a smaller magicka pool, less regen, weaker hardened ward, fewer BEs, and will be the most squishable type of sorc.

Talking about your average player, not max-CP-grinder types.

"Max" styled builds are often used by people who actually understand game mechanics, so no, not your average player. I fight these types of builds on a daily basis in the EU server. Good example would be Fluffy's Sorc "The Wise Mage" or my friend Valgar0r.

Yonkit wrote: »

What about those of us that have 4k weapon dmg and 2.5k regen? You left us out

And 17k snipes come from a low weapon dmg build So far my record for a snipe is 22k (not counting that time I sniped a werewolf :P) and that's with around 2700 weapon dmg.

22k snipes are very possible, but that requires a hefty amount of CP along with the right sets. Something that even the top players may or may not have (Fun fact, my finances are always in such a poor state that my guildmates nickname me "The Thousandaire". Used to be "The Hundredaire"). Also, I do have a similar build to yours stat wise, but I don't use a bow. My example in the original post was to illustrate a build that is so focused on damage, that it gives up everything else.

EDIT: Formatting. Typing on a phone browser tends to cause formatting to go haywire.

Jaxsun · May 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The game as it currently is would be insanely fun
- if weaponswitch would work reliable in every situation (this is still whats killing me the most - weapon switch in this game has never worked truely reliable for me once ping hits 150+ what happens basically every evening)
- lag would affect every ability and player in the same way (no huge lagspikes at all would be even better )
- cc breaks would be truely instant and without animation delays
- animation delay on fear and some knockdowns
- silence + root (WTF?!) on charges
- no health desync on bow attacks
- no desync on stealth attacks where character models don´t appear before you´re dead with no animation playing at all

In short: I´d agree with you if the system would let skill and reactiontime come into to play which just does not happen at the moment.

On the bolded...

The silence + root on charges is apparently intended if what @cozmon3c_ESO says is true. He was allegedly told by Eric Wobble that it was added to help people catch up to Bolt Escaping sorcs and that it's here to stay.

I'm not happy about it, but I've kind of adapted. However when you get 2-3 people crit-rushing you, you get locked for like 2" which is enough to get a snipe or jesus beam in the face and just die there pressing buttons while nothing happens. Then when you spawn, your char skills are still locked and when you press escape it plays the animation for whatever skill you were spamming to keep yourself alive. GG

That's really disappointing. They just keep breaking this game more and more with every patch.

Muizer · May 2015

Gargragrond wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Are these figures realistic? Guess I'm doing something very wrong then . I mean, assuming jewelry is used for cost reduction (logical, as regen is the worse option since 1.6) I don't see where you could possible get anywhere near 3k regen from.

Those figures apply only to NBs and bosmers, not to mere mortals.

Thanks for the clarification.

Maulkin · May 2015

k2blader wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Max Spell Damage --- Stacks Spell Damage at the cost of pretty much every other stat, usually done by Sorcs to deal their famous 15k+ Crystal Fragments hits. These sorts of builds often have a huge magicka pool to back them up, so they will have huge shields as well. Assuming food is eaten to further boost damage, these sort of builds have round 800-1k magicka regen. Spell damage on such builds vary, based on if the player is a Sorc or not.

Do sorcs who stack spell damage really have "huge magicka pools"? If a sorc is stacking spell damage at the expense of magicka and magicka regen, he'll have a smaller magicka pool, less regen, weaker hardened ward, fewer BEs, and will be the most squishable type of sorc.

Talking about your average player, not max-CP-grinder types.

To answer your question...Yes, yes of course.

I have 3k Spell Damage, 35k Max Magicka, 1.3k Magicka Regen on my Sorc. That's with exactly 200 CPs which is kinda normal atm. Never did any grinding.

I'd like 200-300 more regen tbh, which I actually get with continuous attack and then my build becomes very rounded for a while

Gargragrond wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I've been hit with whip crits for 9.3K or so the other day continually. Not that it kills you, but it's insane to have a (almost) 10K insta damage spell that's spammable and non reflectable/dodgeable or whatever.

Well, never seen that - maybe it's possible, but that dk would probably be dead before he gets two whips in in any typical open world situation. Might be a nice curiosity in the duels though. Meanwhile, my whip hits for 3k, I chose not to use it

Anyway, I don't really like this extreme damage environment. I think it puts a bit too much emphasis on who has the best ping / who gets unlucky with latency spikes, weapon swap etc. I think there should be a bit more room for small imperfections so that good tactics is not completely nullified by missing a single action (for whatever reason).

I was hit for an 11k whip by an Arena player the other day. I'm not even a vamp. And the guy had great sustain in the duel. Definitely nothing weak about his build.

Etaniel · May 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I was hit for an 11k whip by an Arena player the other day. I'm not even a vamp. And the guy had great sustain in the duel. Definitely nothing weak about his build.

How much spell resist do you have? That whip must have ben cast under entropy buff, mages guild 20% dmg buff and a crit.
I'm guessing you don't wear any nirn?
With 1.9k spell dmg unbuffed and 24k base magicka my whip tooltip is 4.3k, biggest crit i've ever gotten on a vamp is 9k, but that happens very rarely.

Anyways, magicka dks have nothing to complain about when it comes to 1v1, but open world is another story, you can't pull dmg that high and still have enough sustain and resistance.

cozmon3c_ESO · May 2015

I would be happier if they just made it so charges that aren't supposed to go through dodge not hit you when you dodge, im fine with flame whip, and concealed weapon (with a shorter range to be honest). The real issue I'm having with these builds is that there is really nothing a sorc (maybe just stam sorc) can really do against these permanent block mofos running around Cyrodiil. They can't really kill me but I can't even hurt them like at all even with using the 1.5 second cast of rune prison. I wish steak went through block again but that is probably just a sorcs lost power that I dream about still having.

LegendaryMage · May 2015

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

I would be happier if they just made it so charges that aren't supposed to go through dodge not hit you when you dodge, im fine with flame whip, and concealed weapon (with a shorter range to be honest). The real issue I'm having with these builds is that there is really nothing a sorc (maybe just stam sorc) can really do against these permanent block mofos running around Cyrodiil. They can't really kill me but I can't even hurt them like at all even with using the 1.5 second cast of rune prison. I wish steak went through block again but that is probably just a sorcs lost power that I dream about still having.

You need to burst perma-rollers if you want to kill them fairly quickly. This is one of the ways you can do it as a sorcerer.

As for perma-blockers, you just use resto light attacks on them and they will be out of stamina in no time unless they're built for tanking and tanking alone (3 block cost reduce glyphs), in that case you can only try with damage that goes through block (certain staff heavy attacks, ground aoes etc). If they're not built for fighting, just don't fight them, they can't do anything to you either.

Maulkin · May 2015

@Etaniel ofc it was under entropy buff. Many many players use it so it's considered normal I think for light armour builds.

I don't wear nirn armour as I don't think it's worth it on full light armour builds (plus I think it's almost cheating to use it in general).. Only my weapons are nirn. I have around 8k spell resist I think. Which gets completely penetrated anyways.

I mean with 4 nirn armour you can get like 15k spell resist. The opponents nirn weapon will strip away 3k of that immediately and the light armour passive bypasses another 5k so really what you end up with is 7k which is 10% mitigation. You get double the mitigation and against more attacks by using Evasion for example.

With nirn that whip would have been 10k instead of 11k. That's it. And if your opponent is using crushing shock, the destro passive removes another 5k to leave you with 2k spell resist on Crushy. With 4 nirn armour pieces. Do you think it's worth it considering the set sacrifices I have to make? I think not.

LegendaryMage · May 2015

Erondil wrote: »

9.3k whip crit is with a high damages build on a light armor player. You're running with a ressources mangmeny setup (you are far from 2k spell damages) and ypur CF already hits for more. CF has much more counter indeed bit its distance and damages are much much higher. If you think that whip damages are too high, you're very wrong I gotta say. Even as vamp with 0 fire resist DKs don't hurt me (beside capslock and fluffy). I only saw once a whip around 10k, but I'm vamp woth light armor...

His sustain is pretty good actually, he lasts with me for 10+ minutes sometimes so that's something, no? His damage is insane and I got more shields than you do and I'm not a vamp. If he hits me with 10K whips, he'll probably blast you for 13K+ easy.

I got boundless storm and nirn weapons, so I'm close to 17K spell resist and slightly lower armor.

wtb duel between you and Rosh, wanna see you today go at it. He also has a tricky burst combo similar to mine, will be interesting to see if you can cope with it, because I'm actually fighting him on full 'standby' mode usually (expecting it all the time).

I've got only one clip with him recorded, our last one and I will upload it as a separate duel probably.

Maulkin · May 2015

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

9.3k whip crit is with a high damages build on a light armor player. You're running with a ressources mangmeny setup (you are far from 2k spell damages) and ypur CF already hits for more. CF has much more counter indeed bit its distance and damages are much much higher. If you think that whip damages are too high, you're very wrong I gotta say. Even as vamp with 0 fire resist DKs don't hurt me (beside capslock and fluffy). I only saw once a whip around 10k, but I'm vamp woth light armor...

His sustain is pretty good actually, he lasts with me for 10+ minutes sometimes so that's something, no? His damage is insane and I got more shields than you do and I'm not a vamp. If he hits me with 10K whips, he'll probably blast you for 13K+ easy.

I got boundless storm and nirn weapons, so I'm close to 17K spell resist and slightly lower armor.

wtb duel between you and Rosh, wanna see you today go at it. He also has a tricky burst combo similar to mine, will be interesting to see if you can cope with it, because I'm actually fighting him on full 'standby' mode usually (expecting it all the time).

I've got only one clip with him recorded, our last one and I will upload it as a separate duel probably.

Is it...entropy->meteor->fossilise->whip?

Etaniel · May 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Etaniel ofc it was under entropy buff. Many many players use it so it's considered normal I think for light armour builds.

I don't wear nirn armour as I don't think it's worth it on full light armour builds (plus I think it's almost cheating to use it in general).. Only my weapons are nirn. I have around 8k spell resist I think. Which gets completely penetrated anyways.

I mean with 4 nirn armour you can get like 15k spell resist. The opponents nirn weapon will strip away 3k of that immediately and the light armour passive bypasses another 5k so really what you end up with is 7k which is 10% mitigation. You get double the mitigation and against more attacks by using Evasion for example.

With nirn that whip would have been 10k instead of 11k. That's it. And if your opponent is using crushing shock, the destro passive removes another 5k to leave you with 2k spell resist on Crushy. With 4 nirn armour pieces. Do you think it's worth it considering the set sacrifices I have to make? I think not.

yeah I always forget that light armor provides very low spell resist... With resists that low, any magicka build will tear you up when your shields are down, so yeah 11k on a whip doesn't surprise me that much.
Heck, i'm used to getting 8-9k magicka hits to my face when I have over 35k spell resist

But the dk will only get 11k when using entropy in between every whip to get the guild might passive for 20% dmg increase, so a normal whip crit under entropy buff would be around 9k for him.
Consider it this way : if he needs to reapply entropy every time, that's a 2 sec break between every whip, which could be seen as a cast time :P

LegendaryMage · May 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Is it...entropy->meteor->fossilise->whip?

I am exporting the video now, it should be up very soon as I've cut it to 3+ minutes or so (the fight was 8-10 minutes I think so his sustain is pretty good, I'd assume he's using harness).

9.3K crits easy on me with 17K spell resist and 20k+ hp, meteor and fossilize and he can totally burst you down if you're not quick enough to react. I got burned once or twice before realizing just how hard he can hit, from then on I developed a careful tactic to fight him and I can deal with him, but as a vampire NB with less shields than sorcerer, I wouldn't be so sure @Erondil.

Maulkin · May 2015

Etaniel wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Etaniel ofc it was under entropy buff. Many many players use it so it's considered normal I think for light armour builds.

I don't wear nirn armour as I don't think it's worth it on full light armour builds (plus I think it's almost cheating to use it in general).. Only my weapons are nirn. I have around 8k spell resist I think. Which gets completely penetrated anyways.

I mean with 4 nirn armour you can get like 15k spell resist. The opponents nirn weapon will strip away 3k of that immediately and the light armour passive bypasses another 5k so really what you end up with is 7k which is 10% mitigation. You get double the mitigation and against more attacks by using Evasion for example.

With nirn that whip would have been 10k instead of 11k. That's it. And if your opponent is using crushing shock, the destro passive removes another 5k to leave you with 2k spell resist on Crushy. With 4 nirn armour pieces. Do you think it's worth it considering the set sacrifices I have to make? I think not.

yeah I always forget that light armor provides very low spell resist... With resists that low, any magicka build will tear you up when your shields are down, so yeah 11k on a whip doesn't surprise me that much.
Heck, i'm used to getting 8-9k magicka hits to my face when I have over 35k spell resist

But the dk will only get 11k when using entropy in between every whip to get the guild might passive for 20% dmg increase, so a normal whip crit under entropy buff would be around 9k for him.
Consider it this way : if he needs to reapply entropy every time, that's a 2 sec break between every whip, which could be seen as a cast time :P

I believe I can crit you much higher than that, we should have a test :P

I crit monsters for 23.5k. My PvP record post bug fix on frags is 20k. One-shotted Geckox with it yesterday right in the middle of his zerg. It was a sweet moment, followed by some fast & furious bolt escaping away from the angry red train

Etaniel · May 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Etaniel ofc it was under entropy buff. Many many players use it so it's considered normal I think for light armour builds.

I don't wear nirn armour as I don't think it's worth it on full light armour builds (plus I think it's almost cheating to use it in general).. Only my weapons are nirn. I have around 8k spell resist I think. Which gets completely penetrated anyways.

I mean with 4 nirn armour you can get like 15k spell resist. The opponents nirn weapon will strip away 3k of that immediately and the light armour passive bypasses another 5k so really what you end up with is 7k which is 10% mitigation. You get double the mitigation and against more attacks by using Evasion for example.

With nirn that whip would have been 10k instead of 11k. That's it. And if your opponent is using crushing shock, the destro passive removes another 5k to leave you with 2k spell resist on Crushy. With 4 nirn armour pieces. Do you think it's worth it considering the set sacrifices I have to make? I think not.

yeah I always forget that light armor provides very low spell resist... With resists that low, any magicka build will tear you up when your shields are down, so yeah 11k on a whip doesn't surprise me that much.
Heck, i'm used to getting 8-9k magicka hits to my face when I have over 35k spell resist

But the dk will only get 11k when using entropy in between every whip to get the guild might passive for 20% dmg increase, so a normal whip crit under entropy buff would be around 9k for him.
Consider it this way : if he needs to reapply entropy every time, that's a 2 sec break between every whip, which could be seen as a cast time :P

I believe I can crit you much higher than that, we should have a test :P

I crit monsters for 23.5k. My PvP record post bug fix on frags is 20k. One-shotted Geckox with it yesterday right in the middle of his zerg. It was a sweet moment, followed by some fast & furious bolt escaping away from the angry red train

I highly doubt you can get a 20k frag on me though... let's duel tonight

Maulkin · May 2015

Etaniel wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Etaniel ofc it was under entropy buff. Many many players use it so it's considered normal I think for light armour builds.

I don't wear nirn armour as I don't think it's worth it on full light armour builds (plus I think it's almost cheating to use it in general).. Only my weapons are nirn. I have around 8k spell resist I think. Which gets completely penetrated anyways.

I mean with 4 nirn armour you can get like 15k spell resist. The opponents nirn weapon will strip away 3k of that immediately and the light armour passive bypasses another 5k so really what you end up with is 7k which is 10% mitigation. You get double the mitigation and against more attacks by using Evasion for example.

With nirn that whip would have been 10k instead of 11k. That's it. And if your opponent is using crushing shock, the destro passive removes another 5k to leave you with 2k spell resist on Crushy. With 4 nirn armour pieces. Do you think it's worth it considering the set sacrifices I have to make? I think not.

yeah I always forget that light armor provides very low spell resist... With resists that low, any magicka build will tear you up when your shields are down, so yeah 11k on a whip doesn't surprise me that much.
Heck, i'm used to getting 8-9k magicka hits to my face when I have over 35k spell resist

But the dk will only get 11k when using entropy in between every whip to get the guild might passive for 20% dmg increase, so a normal whip crit under entropy buff would be around 9k for him.
Consider it this way : if he needs to reapply entropy every time, that's a 2 sec break between every whip, which could be seen as a cast time :P

I believe I can crit you much higher than that, we should have a test :P

I crit monsters for 23.5k. My PvP record post bug fix on frags is 20k. One-shotted Geckox with it yesterday right in the middle of his zerg. It was a sweet moment, followed by some fast & furious bolt escaping away from the angry red train

I highly doubt you can get a 20k frag on me though... let's duel tonight

Definitely not 20k, I meant more than the 8-9k you get usually. Probably 11-12k is the max I can crit you for.

I hate dueling magicka DKs, so much block! We'll do it tonight then

LegendaryMage · May 2015

Here, enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmtZbsVLahs

First meteor I had shields 100% and had to even use a potion I think. 2nd meteor I managed to block last milisecond and somehow stun him (didn't expect those frags to go out), third meteor I tried to stun him with streak to avoid whips but it didn't work, but luckily I got some distance.

First time I was close to killing him, he had harness and healing ward it just didn't show on his hp bar on my end so don't get all crazy about not having a finisher, he would have survived it with shield spam easily.

Edit: Wrong clip, sorry...

Erondil · May 2015

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

9.3k whip crit is with a high damages build on a light armor player. You're running with a ressources mangmeny setup (you are far from 2k spell damages) and ypur CF already hits for more. CF has much more counter indeed bit its distance and damages are much much higher. If you think that whip damages are too high, you're very wrong I gotta say. Even as vamp with 0 fire resist DKs don't hurt me (beside capslock and fluffy). I only saw once a whip around 10k, but I'm vamp woth light armor...

His sustain is pretty good actually, he lasts with me for 10+ minutes sometimes so that's something, no? His damage is insane and I got more shields than you do and I'm not a vamp. If he hits me with 10K whips, he'll probably blast you for 13K+ easy.

I got boundless storm and nirn weapons, so I'm close to 17K spell resist and slightly lower armor.

wtb duel between you and Rosh, wanna see you today go at it. He also has a tricky burst combo similar to mine, will be interesting to see if you can cope with it, because I'm actually fighting him on full 'standby' mode usually (expecting it all the time).

I've got only one clip with him recorded, our last one and I will upload it as a separate duel probably.

Ross and Capslock's builds are indeed very good for duels, but they wont last long in openfield, melee with a destro staff, light armor and no escape... That's why I really don't think whip is that strong, it's doable to get high damages but you sacrifice all your survivability wearing light armor and full spell damages set.
You can't ask for a nerf or even complain on something only basing on a dueling experience, which needs more damages and not as much surviavibility as open PvP while the game is designed around open PvP.

I'm sure I will have hardtime to duel such specc, especially as vamp, but it doesn't that whip damages are too high... especially for a magicka melee attack

Gargragrond · May 2015

Well, I must say that some dk nerfs might be needed indeed. That took several minutes and at some point your resources went as low as 50%. Something is not right in the world

LegendaryMage · May 2015

Erondil wrote: »

Ross and Capslock's builds are indeed very good for duels, but they wont last long in openfield, melee with a destro staff, light armor and no escape... That's why I really don't think whip is that strong, it's doable to get high damages but you sacrifice all your survivability wearing light armor and full spell damages set.
You can't ask for a nerf or even complain on something only basing on a dueling experience, which needs more damages and not as much surviavibility as open PvP while the game is designed around open PvP.

I'm sure I will have hardtime to duel such specc, especially as vamp, but it doesn't that whip damages are too high... especially for a magicka melee attack

10k insta damage spells with who knows how strong meteors is a lot, even in open pvp.

If I can go and kill almost 30 people in less than 10 minutes then they can too. And probably even easier than me with their damage and burst potential along with scales which I don't have. My burst depends on people making mistakes, their burst depends on people not having cc immunity, and almost none shields (you can proceed even if your target has a shield). I'm pretty sure Rossh does nicely in open pvp.

Gargragrond wrote: »

Well, I must say that some dk nerfs might be needed indeed. That took several minutes and at some point your resources went as low as 50%. Something is not right in the world

I don't have resource problems due to harness. You can see captain capslock fighting with 1K mag regen and never running out of magica even though he's constantly recasting pets (the daedric passive is crap nowadays) as well as all other spells he's using. Harness feeds you magica and you can go on for a long time vs a magica spec. I sometimes have semi resource troubles with stamina setups but potions carry me on and I can last long without being bursted like some 15K hp sorcs with weaker shields do.

I also have decent regens, almost 33K pool, seducer gear as well as cost reduction glyphs and champion points placed for more sustain (regens, reduced spell cost etc). I am built to last decently long and that's why I rarely go out of resources. Of course, some sorcs take it to the extremes and get much more regen than me, as well as use BOL but they still die because they are easily burstable at the right times.

I'm not asking for DK nerfs, in fact as far as I'm concerned, buff everyone up but me, I'm totally fine with it. I played sorc when it was pure crap in 1.5 and I still did decently well in open pvp as well as duels. But if we're talking balance, then you might as well hear my feedback as well.

Erondil · May 2015

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Ross and Capslock's builds are indeed very good for duels, but they wont last long in openfield, melee with a destro staff, light armor and no escape... That's why I really don't think whip is that strong, it's doable to get high damages but you sacrifice all your survivability wearing light armor and full spell damages set.
You can't ask for a nerf or even complain on something only basing on a dueling experience, which needs more damages and not as much surviavibility as open PvP while the game is designed around open PvP.

I'm sure I will have hardtime to duel such specc, especially as vamp, but it doesn't that whip damages are too high... especially for a magicka melee attack

10k insta damage spells with who knows how strong meteors is a lot, even in open pvp.

If I can go and kill almost 30 people in less than 10 minutes then they can too. And probably even easier than me with their damage and burst potential along with scales which I don't have. My burst depends on people making mistakes, their burst depends on people not having cc immunity, and almost none shields (you can proceed even if your target has a shield). I'm pretty sure Rossh does nicely in open pvp.

Man in open PvP their classhield scale on health and is usually around 6-7k. They have no way to take a bit of distance, mistform cant compete with BE or cloak on many points, they have nothing to keep melee ennemies away (no mines, and cinder storm got nerfed to useless except to procc skoria). I gonna tell you what will happen in PvP : 2 stamina melee guys will jump on the DK, this one will instantly die
If he tries to shield himself, his 7k shield wont last long agaisnt 2* 6-10k surprise attack/wrecking blow spam. If he tries to focus ranged ppl, he has no gapcloser so its not hard to kite him or run away from him.

I know you don't use streak to run away from a fight, exactly as I rarely use cloak to run away, but you use streak to go out of the melee range if needed, to get the time (since gapclosers are not instant, and their react time to understand where you are neither) to reshield/use defensives tools. A DK can't get this timeout, he has to stay and fight so he needs other ways to defend himself: armor/spell resist or block usually. You have like 0 spell resist/armor and can't block with a light armor and a destro staff.

If you actually believe that magicka destro/restro dk is better then sorc in openfield but no one has figured it out yet, too busy QQing about sorc/nb, I think you're completely wrong.
In duels you dont need that much mobility/break times, thats why you dont use streak and I dont use cloak as much as in open PvP.

Edit : your burst has, for sure much more counter then the ross' one, but you dont really need a good burst rotation to kill 90% of people in openfields anyway. And 50% doesnt even know how to counter your build.

Etaniel · May 2015

LegendaryMage wrote: »

If I can go and kill almost 30 people in less than 10 minutes then they can too. And probably even easier than me with their damage and burst potential along with scales which I don't have. My burst depends on people making mistakes, their burst depends on people not having cc immunity, and almost none shields (you can proceed even if your target has a shield). I'm pretty sure Rossh does nicely in open pvp.

I'm sorry mage, but no. The burst you are showcasing uses an ultimate. It's a strong burst, but you don't have a meteor ready everytime you switch targets in open world ^^

frozywozy · May 2015

LegendaryMage wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Is it...entropy->meteor->fossilise->whip?

I am exporting the video now, it should be up very soon as I've cut it to 3+ minutes or so (the fight was 8-10 minutes I think so his sustain is pretty good, I'd assume he's using harness).

9.3K crits easy on me with 17K spell resist and 20k+ hp, meteor and fossilize and he can totally burst you down if you're not quick enough to react. I got burned once or twice before realizing just how hard he can hit, from then on I developed a careful tactic to fight him and I can deal with him, but as a vampire NB with less shields than sorcerer, I wouldn't be so sure @Erondil.

17k spell resists is very very very low. But once again, as a sorc stacking shields, you don't really care about your hp pool and your resists because all you need is a high regen to stack shields to resist and bolt escape. On any other class tho, you need at least 30k spell resistances and some people can go all the way up to 50-60k easily without that many CPs.

This is why most dks won't hit more than 4.5k whip crit on non vamp on a regular basis with 2k+ spell damage (not even counting people wearing nirnhoded here). Sometimes my whip hit for 1.5k with 2k spell damage on people wearing alot of nirnhoded and holding block.

Ezareth · May 2015

Yonkit wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Max Stam Regen --- Stacks Stamina Regen and cost reductions to pretty much use any stamina based skill for free, coupled with "Permadodge" and "Permabreakfree". These sorts of build usually use a two handed weapon, spamming Critical Rush to deal damage before finishing with Executioner. Regeneration on such builds are often over 3k regen. Usually has round 2k Weapon Damage.

Are these figures realistic? Guess I'm doing something very wrong then . I mean, assuming jewelry is used for cost reduction (logical, as regen is the worse option since 1.6) I don't see where you could possible get anywhere near 3k regen from.

My VR1 NB has 2300 stamina regen right now wearing L46 gear and garbage blue rings...with no regen on the jewelry enchants. I'll be over 3K easily by VR14 and over 4K when you include Tri-stat regen + Battle Rush + continous assault etc.

I hope you get whipped in the face you perma-roller!

Not afraid of whip spam since I dropped the vamp. Just roll through, fear the DK, manuevers + repeat. Throw in a few crit-charges to keep them honest.

Ezareth · May 2015

Gargragrond wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Are these figures realistic? Guess I'm doing something very wrong then . I mean, assuming jewelry is used for cost reduction (logical, as regen is the worse option since 1.6) I don't see where you could possible get anywhere near 3k regen from.

Those figures apply only to NBs and bosmers, not to mere mortals.

Well Redguards actually can exceed bosmer stamina regen and DKs have other alternatives to regenerating stamina for permarolling.

olemanwinter · May 2015

Congratulations on topping the pyramid of "nerf threads"

NERF EVERYTHING excep heath? Neat.

Your post is very close to those that want a "ability-free" pvp experience. Just hack, block, and move.

I am 100% against almost everything written in the OP.

I think your post exhibits all that is correct with PvP, the fact that there are ALL THESE MANY "flavor of the month OP" builds kind of defies the idea of them existing at all.

I think it's wonderful that there are all these builds that represent the peak of performace in their many varied fields.

To be honest, though it was a well written and respecful post, I feel that your "I'm a tank tired of getting bursted QQ" is still showing.

Damage comes at the expense of health, armor, and even utility and heals in the case of class selection. Toughness come at the expense of damage. So, if we nerf damage, who wins? Tank builds.

Furthermore, resource generation is already hindered for max damage builds. I kill a couple of people and become a glass cannon minus the cannon part. I have to wait, hide, and regen.

Regen is only really an issue for the super defensive builds (Bubble Sorcs, etc)...but the reality is these players are only a threat if you basically kill yourself on them using all your resources and taking damage in the process. Fighting a Bubble/Streak Sorc is like trying to catch a Porcupine barehanded. Just don't. I just ignore Bolt/Bubble sorcs and I've noticed more and more players just pretending they don't exist. They don't present much of a threat. It must be the most boring play style there is.

I think there are things that need to be tweeked in this game for it to be in balance, but I don't see the same over-arching problem you do.

DeanTheCat · May 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

Congratulations on topping the pyramid of "nerf threads"

NERF EVERYTHING excep heath? Neat.

Your post is very close to those that want a "ability-free" pvp experience. Just hack, block, and move.

I am 100% against almost everything written in the OP.

I think your post exhibits all that is correct with PvP, the fact that there are ALL THESE MANY "flavor of the month OP" builds kind of defies the idea of them existing at all.

I think it's wonderful that there are all these builds that represent the peak of performace in their many varied fields.

To be honest, though it was a well written and respecful post, I feel that your "I'm a tank tired of getting bursted QQ" is still showing.

Damage comes at the expense of health, armor, and even utility and heals in the case of class selection. Toughness come at the expense of damage. So, if we nerf damage, who wins? Tank builds.

Furthermore, resource generation is already hindered for max damage builds. I kill a couple of people and become a glass cannon minus the cannon part. I have to wait, hide, and regen.

Regen is only really an issue for the super defensive builds (Bubble Sorcs, etc)...but the reality is these players are only a threat if you basically kill yourself on them using all your resources and taking damage in the process. Fighting a Bubble/Streak Sorc is like trying to catch a Porcupine barehanded. Just don't. I just ignore Bolt/Bubble sorcs and I've noticed more and more players just pretending they don't exist. They don't present much of a threat. It must be the most boring play style there is.

I think there are things that need to be tweeked in this game for it to be in balance, but I don't see the same over-arching problem you do.

I don't think my 19k HP, 10k Armour, 3.9k Weapon Dam and 25k stam build is classified as a "Tank" build. Never used any "Tank" build before, I just have an in built aversion to being hit in the first place. Been a stam NB since beta (Ask anyone in Arena of you don't believe me)

Anyway, my suggestions are just to tone down all the spam and instagibbing that is going on at the highest levels of PvP. Imagine a new level 10 walks into Cyrodiil and sees that. The first thing he is going to think is "What the heck?" And after being killed by these players a few times (While seemingly not doing any damage to the player) all of them are just going to say "F it" and leave Cyro for good. Is this really what we want? A slowly shrinking pool of players just either one shotting each other or spamming abilities to such frequency that would make Molag Bal envious that he can't deploy his dark anchors at the same pace? If anything, my build will be hurt by a lot if these proposed changes get accepted, but I'm willing make that sacrifice for the good of PvP.

olemanwinter · May 2015

I don't see the problems you see.

I see a few specific abilities that need tweeking. You see a fundamental sytem-wide flaw. We disagree.

DeanTheCat · May 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

I don't see the problems you see.

I see a few specific abilities that need tweeking. You see a fundamental sytem-wide flaw. We disagree.

I respect your opinion.

Well, in the end, neither of us are actually making the balance changes that will be pushed live. ZoS is responsible for that and all we can really do is offer suggestions and adopt a "Wait and see" approach. I wonder what they will decide on in the end.

Sacadon · May 2015

I was with you until it appears you blamed us players for balance and performance issues.

Our competitive nature will almost always translate into us finding a way to maximize our builds and seek unique advantages. This of course is greatness!

Therefore, it's on ZOS to design the game with the appropriate guard rails that allow us to play effectively under these circumstances. But rather than a safe sandbox, they've designed it such that the users of the system, doing what they will always do, can take it to its knees. This is the problem, not the nature of and therefore requirements of players. If ZOS did this right, then poor old Bubbles would not have to pedal so hard in the first place.

In contrast, it's a beautiful and fun game to play. And if it can weather the storm, I believe that in a few years it's going to be as good as we all want it to be.