Armor Dyes Review - The Good & The Bad

jay122897_ESO · August 2014

I for one am looking forward to the dye system. Now as far as people thinking unlocking colors by achievement is a dumb idea....I've seen a list of the colors by achievement and I can say that you will have a bunch of colors just by doing things you already have done (exploration, dungeons, dark anchors, crafting etc.). It is true if you don't do PvP or trials you wont unlock those colors but its not like they saved the best colors for those achievements. One other thing I can say is that I agree that by doing this and not actually "having" a physical vial of dye as others have mentioned you wont have those people that would be trying to make a fortune off others by running prices on these up. All in all time will only tell how well this works and what (if any )tweaks to the system are needed.

coryevans_3b14_ESO · August 2014

Kulthax wrote: »

Dyes should be purchasable with your Achievement points. I should not be forced to play or participate in something just to get a different shade of dye.

Yes you should.

Phantax · August 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

gamer2571_ESO wrote: »

sucks that there locked behind achievements , specially since most people dont like PVP, and were forced to pvp to unlock them, dyes should be handled by loot , rare drops imo

I wouldn't say that 'most' people don't like PvP, but I do agree that putting dyes behind achievements was a bad idea.
Sure put some as achieve rewards, the rest should as you say be as loot drops, finds etc.
And as for Zeni not wanting dyes to be a tradable item, well that was easy to do... simply make them BoP and problem solved !

Why shouldn't dyes be tied to achievements? I want people to know that I am able to flaunt my colors because I accomplished something, not just because I got good at farming containers.

Because it segregates the community into those that do certain things and those that don't.
If you recall they said at the launch of ESO that all players should have access to 100% of the content. That's hardly the case if Zenimax are forcing certain player types to do things they don't want to !
Furthermore, I didn't say all the dyes should not be attached to achievements !

Phantax · August 2014

Kulthax wrote: »

Dyes should be purchasable with your Achievement points. I should not be forced to play or participate in something just to get a different shade of dye.

Agreed !

Lumomancer · August 2014

Phantax wrote: »

Because it segregates the community into those that do certain things and those that don't.
If you recall they said at the launch of ESO that all players should have access to 100% of the content. That's hardly the case if Zenimax are forcing certain player types to do things they don't want to !
Furthermore, I didn't say all the dyes should not be attached to achievements !

Everyone still has access to 100% of the dyes because they have access to 100% of the content that unlocks them. All that's missing is effort -- something that, if this thread is to be believed, is a true rarity in the ESO community.

Phantax · August 2014

Lumomancer wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Because it segregates the community into those that do certain things and those that don't.
If you recall they said at the launch of ESO that all players should have access to 100% of the content. That's hardly the case if Zenimax are forcing certain player types to do things they don't want to !
Furthermore, I didn't say all the dyes should not be attached to achievements !

Everyone still has access to 100% of the dyes because they have access to 100% of the content that unlocks them. All that's missing is effort -- something that, if this thread is to be believed, is a true rarity in the ESO community.

Technically yes, but that then breaks their other claim of "Play the game the way you want"
Hardly playing the way you want if you are being forced to do something you don't want to in order to obtain something from the game !

Lumomancer · August 2014

Phantax wrote: »

Technically yes, but that then breaks their other claim of "Play the game the way you want"
Hardly playing the way you want if you are being forced to do something you don't want to in order to obtain something from the game !

You can still play the game the way you want. You will simply lack a few color options for your armor, but as this has no mechanical effect on your character, you are not being "forced" into anything.

Srugzal · August 2014

Phantax wrote: »

I don't like how Zenimax have implemented the way dyes are obtained, with this I think they have missed their mark ! Hopefully we'll get some kind of work-around before the release of update 3.

At the risk of going against prevailing opinion, I'm very pleased that the dye system has been tied to achievements. In doing it this way, the developers have ensured that the game remains a "role playing game" and not a paint program.

This means that your colors reflect what your character has actually done in the game, not the amount of gold you have made (and so have been able to spend to buy the "rare" colors).

By all means, let's provide achievements for accumulating gold, because that is certainly part of the game, I'm not against that. But when you restrict colors by achievement, you say to the game world, "your colors reflect the choices you've made for your character."

In short, I think the dye system, as it's been designed, is absolutely brilliant. I hope that the contrary views do not prevail. Here the developer's vision is right on the mark.

Phantax · August 2014

Srugzal wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

I don't like how Zenimax have implemented the way dyes are obtained, with this I think they have missed their mark ! Hopefully we'll get some kind of work-around before the release of update 3.

At the risk of going against prevailing opinion, I'm very pleased that the dye system has been tied to achievements. In doing it this way, the developers have ensured that the game remains a "role playing game" and not a paint program.

This means that your colors reflect what your character has actually done in the game, not the amount of gold you have made (and so have been able to spend to buy the "rare" colors).

By all means, let's provide achievements for accumulating gold, because that is certainly part of the game, I'm not against that. But when you restrict colors by achievement, you say to the game world, "your colors reflect the choices you've made for your character."

In short, I think the dye system, as it's been designed, is absolutely brilliant. I hope that the contrary views do not prevail. Here the developer's vision is right on the mark.

I've never said the dyes should be a buyable commodity, at the very least they should be BoP. I just don't agree with having them locked to achieves

CapuchinSeven · August 2014

vyal wrote: »

Rare dyes from PvP ?

Makes sense.

Oh wait, my bad..

WTG Zenimax. You managed to take a good idea and bake it into a brick of crap, yet again.

Rare dyes from PvE?

Makes sense.

OH wait, my bad.

vyal wrote: »

Until you're going to make a PvE-only phase of Cyrodil, you can't base achievements on anything in there. It's OPTIONAL content, right now. Why? Because 100 jerknuggets can prevent you from getting it, if they're so inclined. And yes, they're inclined!

Get over it, jessssh, PVE is optional content to me. Honestly, PVEers love to claim sort sort of intellectual high ground but the fact is you really don't have any sort of high ground to stand on at all.

Phantax wrote: »

If you recall they said at the launch of ESO that all players should have access to 100% of the content. That's hardly the case if Zenimax are forcing certain player types to do things they don't want to !

...how does that make any sort of sense at all? Wut?

It honestly makes no sense, you're saying "if players should have access to 100% of the content then moving into those areas means they don't have access to 100% of the content BAM LOGIC".

Aenra · August 2014

to start with the positives, i am veeeery about dyes. Crazy amountsof time spent in Lotro doing just that for example.

that said, i too disagree with the current achievement-based system.

you make a game where the pace is deliberately slow, where the setting itself is made so as to encourage diversion, even idleness (in a good sense mind)
you purposefully make crafting strong, so as to further discourage power leveling, picking X course of playing over Y, etc

and then you add achievement-only unlocks? I mean...
can i say WTF, or is that a touch immature?

how do the two relate, i know not. Still, as i said, loooove the dyes addition, cannot wait. Even with your [i will self-censor me] achievements.

(every time i hear this word, i am reminded of this [verified] 13 year old warlock in my old server in WoW, spamming global with "LF achievementz")

MornaBaine · August 2014

Well I still think that logically it should be a crafting thing but I guess it's okay this way as well. After all there should be SOMETHING tangible you get for getting the achievements.

andrantos · August 2014

I'm glad we don't have more materials/items to juggle in our inventories. I don't mind the achievement based approach either as it will give me more things to work towards. I'm typically not an achievement hunter, so its actually made achievements more relevant to my playstyle.

It also gives players a way to visibly show off their accomplishments.

nerevarine1138 · August 2014

Phantax wrote: »

Lumomancer wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Because it segregates the community into those that do certain things and those that don't.
If you recall they said at the launch of ESO that all players should have access to 100% of the content. That's hardly the case if Zenimax are forcing certain player types to do things they don't want to !
Furthermore, I didn't say all the dyes should not be attached to achievements !

Everyone still has access to 100% of the dyes because they have access to 100% of the content that unlocks them. All that's missing is effort -- something that, if this thread is to be believed, is a true rarity in the ESO community.

Technically yes, but that then breaks their other claim of "Play the game the way you want"
Hardly playing the way you want if you are being forced to do something you don't want to in order to obtain something from the game !

That's the most nonsensical interpretation of "play how you want," I've heard yet. That phrase was not meant to mean, "You can play however you want and still be just as good/geared/pretty as everyone else." You can choose to only fish in this game, but you don't get to whine about not leveling up fast enough. Same thing here. You don't have to do PvP. Or trials. Or dungeons. Or anything. But much like you need to do those things in order to get specific gear, you will need to get certain achievements to get specific dyes.

Honestly, it's like you don't want a game; you just want Matt Firor to send you a bunch of custom-painted legendary VR12 gear.

MornaBaine · August 2014

andrantos wrote: »

I'm glad we don't have more materials/items to juggle in our inventories. I don't mind the achievement based approach either as it will give me more things to work towards. I'm typically not an achievement hunter, so its actually made achievements more relevant to my playstyle.

It also gives players a way to visibly show off their accomplishments.

They should have just had dyes as part of the alchemy plants, no new ones necessary. Each plant could have had a base color and to make new colors you would just go to an alchemy table, select "Dyes" as a new option when you click on it, and different combinations of different plants would give you new colors as would levelling up this new skill. I just think that would have been fun and would have added a cool new element to the economy.

Srugzal · August 2014

Phantax wrote: »

Because it segregates the community into those that do certain things and those that don't.

I do not think that word means what you think it means. The purpose for colors, the reason behind it, is to differentiate between characters. Tying colors to achievements also means that the colors reflect your choices in the game. This is not segregation; it's identification. This is the first time they have provided a way to do this in the game. Before this, most of your choices have been hidden.

If you recall they said at the launch of ESO that all players should have access to 100% of the content. That's hardly the case if Zenimax are forcing certain player types to do things they don't want to !

The context of that statement is very important: it was about there being only one version of the game on the servers, and no quest locations that are only available to people who have purchased the corresponding content (a policy followed by some other MMOs out there). That's something entirely different from achievement based color access, and hardly relevant here, unless you decide to read something into that statement that was never intended.

The point is that developers have decided that the colors should mean something. What system would you like to see in its place?

Furthermore, I didn't say all the dyes should not be attached to achievements !

Nevertheless, this is what you seem to be saying. Perhaps you should clarify, and post your own proposal, and not just continue to contradict. That would contribute to the discussion a bit more.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Lumomancer wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Because it segregates the community into those that do certain things and those that don't.
If you recall they said at the launch of ESO that all players should have access to 100% of the content. That's hardly the case if Zenimax are forcing certain player types to do things they don't want to !
Furthermore, I didn't say all the dyes should not be attached to achievements !

Everyone still has access to 100% of the dyes because they have access to 100% of the content that unlocks them. All that's missing is effort -- something that, if this thread is to be believed, is a true rarity in the ESO community.

Technically yes, but that then breaks their other claim of "Play the game the way you want"
Hardly playing the way you want if you are being forced to do something you don't want to in order to obtain something from the game !

That's the most nonsensical interpretation of "play how you want," I've heard yet. That phrase was not meant to mean, "You can play however you want and still be just as good/geared/pretty as everyone else." You can choose to only fish in this game, but you don't get to whine about not leveling up fast enough. Same thing here. You don't have to do PvP. Or trials. Or dungeons. Or anything. But much like you need to do those things in order to get specific gear, you will need to get certain achievements to get specific dyes.

Honestly, it's like you don't want a game; you just want Matt Firor to send you a bunch of custom-painted legendary VR12 gear.

I can't believe i am actually agreeing with you. But this is true. the reality is this instant gratification generation has completely ruined MMO's. It has created watered down dynamics foodstamp end game gear progression (which ESO did not do , a very very wise choice) and a pleathora of horrible game features that WOW made a staple to cater to a younger gamer. I don't PVP i am pretty bad at it actually. But i am quite happy there will be dye rewards attached to PVP. it gives me a reason to do it and reward for my accomplishments. Im not crying about it , those who are good at it deserve unique items and perks.

ssfiit · August 2014

Here's how I see this.
Kill 10 Spiders - Common - Mustard Yellow Dye
Complete 250 Dark Anchors - Rare - A slightly darker shade of Yellow Dye
Who's gonna spend the time to get the rare color, if the many shades of colors are very similar. Once you apply the color to your gear, whether it's the primary or secondary part of the gear. It's so small that no one can recognize it anyway. It's not like I am grouped with another player and saw his shoulderpad with a darker shade of yellow and assume he completed the 250 anchors.

Anyway, on to more important subject. I have 3 questions.
1. If I apply colors dye to any gear, will this make the gear account/character bound. Therefore, I am no longer able to sell this item.
2. Assuming it's not account bound. So, If I sell you this gear, that I previously dyed. And you brought it. Will the color stay with that item.
3. Assuming the color stays with the item. If I have the Mustard Yellow dye and applied it to some boots and you bought the boots, but you have not killed 10 spiders, will you still see the Mustard Yellow on the boots.

nerevarine1138 · August 2014

ssfiit wrote: »

Here's how I see this.
Kill 10 Spiders - Common - Mustard Yellow Dye
Complete 250 Dark Anchors - Rare - A slightly darker shade of Yellow Dye
Who's gonna spend the time to get the rare color, if the many shades of colors are very similar. Once you apply the color to your gear, whether it's the primary or secondary part of the gear. It's so small that no one can recognize it anyway. It's not like I am grouped with another player and saw his shoulderpad with a darker shade of yellow and assume he completed the 250 anchors.

Anyway, on to more important subject. I have 3 questions.
1. If I apply colors dye to any gear, will this make the gear account/character bound. Therefore, I am no longer able to sell this item.
2. Assuming it's not account bound. So, If I sell you this gear, that I previously dyed. And you brought it. Will the color stay with that item.
3. Assuming the color stays with the item. If I have the Mustard Yellow dye and applied it to some boots and you bought the boots, but you have not killed 10 spiders, will you still see the Mustard Yellow on the boots.

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, the rarer dyes also have a slightly neater look (shiny, special trim, etc.). They aren't always just a different shade than their common counterparts.

Now:
1. Yes.
2. It is account bound.
3. You cannot sell dyed items.

nicholaspingasb16_ESO · August 2014

GnatB wrote: »

Achievements (and trophies) are a horribly silly/stupid idea ever since they first appeared (as far as I'm aware) on the 360. Anything based on them simply compounds the inanity.

I don't need an achievement to get me to do something I want to do. And I'm not going to go do something I don't want to do just to get points (or dye) I can brag to my friends about (or something)

Achievements are a way to reward the player without actually giving them anything (the often supplement loot and other rewards, especially with bosses that don't drop any loot at all)

I'm glad that I finally get something for all of the achievements I've racked up over the past few months.

Blade_07 · August 2014

I'm so happy to see that dyes are gunna be added to the game!!! Zenimax has done something awesome with the game....thanx Zenimax!!!

I think dyes should be tradable so those of use who despise PvP can at least be able to buy those dyes that we would be locked out of. FORCING players to do something in game that they dont like just so they can get a dye unlocked is crappy! Being able to buy dyes from other players would add something great to the economy. So far atm the only real nice thing to sell is epic recipes and the epic grade motifs in my opinion. There are some other descent items to sell as well but not as good as VR1 & VR5 epic recipes that are the high gold item in the game.

ssfiit · August 2014

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, the rarer dyes also have a slightly neater look (shiny, special trim, etc.). They aren't always just a different shade than their common counterparts.

Now:
1. Yes.
2. It is account bound.
3. You cannot sell dyed items.

Thank you for the answer. I guess I will not apply dye my gear unless I plan to keep them.

kieso · August 2014

Achievement hunting is actually pretty fun. More fun that raid dungeon gear chases that's for sure.

andrantos · August 2014

I guess Zenimax could've made them random drops in the game... By making it part if achievements, you know exactly what you have to do to get said dye. No grinding against a random number generator. No items to store or manage in our inventories.

As someone put it, it will encourage another level of play for some players. That is a good thing. So yes, you may have to do stuff you don't particularly enjoy for some colors. At least you don't gave to do said activity with a random number attached.

While dyes could've added another wrinkle to the economy. I don't think that wrinkle would've been worth the added inventory/gathering management. Imagine the raging thatd happen on forums due to all the increased competition for alchemy mats and the ridiculous pricing that'd follow.

Arora · August 2014

I am glad its achievement based gives me something to freaking Earn

Probitas · August 2014

I agree, game performance based fluff seems a bit off putting. What does dyeing have to do with anything in the game? Would have made more sense to tie it to a crafting ability and latch onto that, so the better you are as tailor the more options you have with your products. That would have placed more emphasis on crafters in general. I think Z missed one here.

MornaBaine · August 2014

Probitas wrote: »

I agree, game performance based fluff seems a bit off putting. What does dyeing have to do with anything in the game? Would have made more sense to tie it to a crafting ability and latch onto that, so the better you are as tailor the more options you have with your products. That would have placed more emphasis on crafters in general. I think Z missed one here.

All of this. ^^

Citidel · August 2014

Wow tons of hate for the achievement based unlocks. Maybe they should have gone the route of EA and sold packs of dyes for $15 + patters? No, didn't think that would fly either.

Spend achievement points? Kinda what they are doing but you don't get to say "I want x color for 100 Alex." Also if they released something later that cost achievement point those of you saying they should have done that for this would then cry out on how you spent your 2,000-5,000 achievement points on dyes. It's a finite system, it's also a terrible idea... Personally.

Buy-able/trade-able dyes: we really don't need another subset of items being sold to further dilute the already weak in-game economy. As someone said it would boil down to a small group selling the high end dyes or most desirable dyes and the rest just being fluff.

I think they went with the option that worked best for their player base and their game. They want you to play content not press a button and get a cookie. Achievements are the easiest thing to acquire in this game and if you are mad you can't get x shade of brown till you do x in Cyrodiil, the flip side is people who don't enjoy the pves will have to fish, farm mats, run trials, do dolmens and a number of other things that don't have another person killing them or being killed by them.

andrantos · August 2014

As a crafter, I don't want another set of resources to manage or gather. Fluff items such as this can add another great form of income. However, baking in color choices during crafting is just a bad idea.

New items and mats for such a thing will be a nightmare. Imagine a dye item for each of the available colors. Imagine acquiring enough dye items to dye a set of gear (each piece having 3 dyeable areas). That's just too much for something that will probably be changed frequently for any number of reasons.

Their chosen implementation keeps the overall impacts simple. Gives me customization points that were previously lacking. Adds another wrinkle to progression/achievements. Doesn't impact the economy (which is something we don't need right now). It gates dyes behind quantitative achievements and truly rewards time invested as opposed to randomness.

GnatB · August 2014

pppontus wrote: »

Edit: In my opinion this was the best way this could have ever been implemented. Bound on dye + achievement based = doing the content is rewarding. Keep adding stuff like this and I think it'll go a long way in making people feel like the gameplay is fun and rewarding.

That, or exactly the opposite. Doing content is rewarding because you like the content, and have fun doing it. You shouldn't *need* a carrot to do content other than the content itself. If you do, than that means the content *isn't* fun, and thus acquiring the reward is work. I get enough work at, well work. I don't need it in my game. Doing achievements explicitely *reduces* the fun of games, and requiring you to do said achievements to get cosmetics thus actually makes the game less fun. This game becomes less fun than other games, that aren't silly enough to base things like this on achievements, then I switch over to those other games.

It's not rocket science. Achievements for MS (and later Sony's Trophies) is/was a scheme to make as many people as possible (typically OCD types) keep their games past when they are "fun" so as to prevent resale and make as much money as possible on initial sales. It why they're actually required features. Subscription games, not surprisingly, realized the same thing. Encourage people (particularly OCD types) to do content they don't particularly like, and you'll keep their subscription money rolling in even when it makes the game less fun on average.

As far as I'm concerned, achievements (in every form) can go *bleep* themselves. Even though I trend towards OCD, I've somewhat explicitely made it a goal to avoid being suckered into the trap that is achievements, which has seemed to help. Anyways, my gameplan? Still going to intentionally avoid getting suckered into achievement hunting, and if I can't dye my armor how I want to, I'll make it as garishly hideous as possible. Since I play in first person, I don't really see it anyways, but I'll happily make everybody else suffer for ZoS's poor decision.

edit: Seems like I may as well make my Signature on these forums the same as my XBox gamer tag motto.