Have ESO become pay to win ?

Elloa · February 2016

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

I agree

runagate · February 2016

The idea of vWGT as pay to win is pretty funny.

If it's anything it's pay to stand around trying to cajole people into farming the place for the outside chance of getting the piece of gear you want. Pay to win would be a rich suburban kid with a hoverboard buying a Kena set for $100.

Jaeysa · February 2016

EsoRecon wrote: »

Not pay to win @Axorn trust me you will know if the game goes p2w because the community will riot and burn down zenimax studios. Or everyone will just leave.

It is one of the very few things that will get me to unsub and reinstall, likely for good.

Derra · February 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

There will be people who ALWAYS say ESO is NOT pay to win, no matter what. These people will ALWAYS justify why a Crown Store offering is NOT pay to win. They will put on their ZOS color glasses and use a decision tree that always leads to "Not pay to win"...

For me it's REALLY simple:

Consider two players of equal skill who spend equal time in the game. One buys extra stuff in the Crown Store (ESO+, DLC, XP scrolls, etc), one doesn't... These two players meet in PVP. Does the player who buys Crown Store items have an advantage on the battlefield over the player who does not buy items in the Crown Store.

If they do... ESO is pay to win.

You can define everything as pay to win by that way. Every expansion of every mmo i´ve known so far that you had to buy to access it was pay to win by that definition.

Lysette · February 2016

Chillic wrote: »

I wouldn't have any gear at all if I didn't buy the game... that's not fair!!!

Stop being a child, life is that way, you have to pay for things you want, just love is for free, but even that takes effort to maintain.

Elebeth · February 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

There will be people who ALWAYS say ESO is NOT pay to win, no matter what. These people will ALWAYS justify why a Crown Store offering is NOT pay to win. They will put on their ZOS color glasses and use a decision tree that always leads to "Not pay to win"...

For me it's REALLY simple:

Consider two players of equal skill who spend equal time in the game. One buys extra stuff in the Crown Store (ESO+, DLC, XP scrolls, etc), one doesn't... These two players meet in PVP. Does the player who buys Crown Store items have an advantage on the battlefield over the player who does not buy items in the Crown Store.

If they do... ESO is pay to win.

But you get Battle Leveled in PvP!

On a more serious note, Psijic Ambrosia is available to everyone (4k is not that much), DLC-only items are only BiS for certian builds and Sub option needs to give some benefits, out of which +10% exp is pretty mild.

I agree with others that DLC is NOT p2w, that's just ridiculous statement. And as long as they don't sell things like skyshards in Crown Store I'm fine.
Some mmo's have really really bad micro-transaction stores/options *cough* SWTOR *cough* and ESO is not one of them.

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

So tired of people claiming that pre-1.6 content updates were free... Lol. They werent. Everyone had to pay for sub, otherwise they wouldnt be able to log in.
Nowadays, you can choose to continue paying for sub, and it will be absolutely the same as pre-1.6. Or you can just buy dlcs... Like Skyrim's Dawnguard and Dragonborn expansions. Is Skyrim also p2w if there are cool abilities and gear in those paid dlcs?

nine9six · February 2016

I thought you had to be 17+ to play this game? I see a lot of children crying in this thread. Surely not 17+?

petraeus1 · February 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

There will be people who ALWAYS say ESO is NOT pay to win, no matter what. These people will ALWAYS justify why a Crown Store offering is NOT pay to win. They will put on their ZOS color glasses and use a decision tree that always leads to "Not pay to win"...

For me it's REALLY simple:

Consider two players of equal skill who spend equal time in the game. One buys extra stuff in the Crown Store (ESO+, DLC, XP scrolls, etc), one doesn't... These two players meet in PVP. Does the player who buys Crown Store items have an advantage on the battlefield over the player who does not buy items in the Crown Store.

If they do... ESO is pay to win.

Sounds like pay to win lol

lol. Does to me too... and before I started writing the post I was leaning toward ESO NOT being pay to win. I've struggled with this definition before and we've discussed this on the forums in the past... and I always and up on "I .... guess it's not pay to win... I think."

So I went out, read about different definitions of pay-to-win that are out there. You cant just use what people say on this forum because there are VERY vague definitions that are designed to make ESO NOT pay to win.

When I came across that flow chart I really couldn't argue against it. I had to accept that ESO is pay to win. No, you don't just buy an item from the crown store and YOU WIN!... but paying customers get a distinct advantage over those who don't pay.

Seems pretty obvious to me now.

By your chart it's pay to win. I still disagree though. In my book, a game is pay to win when paying money (by buying items/boosts whatever) gives you a distinct advantage that cannot otherwise be acquired in-game, or only by large grind. ESO doesn't have that. The 'distinct advantage' you're talking about is a level difference that can easily be caught up, is not hid behind a grind - in fact, the level advantage you get by paying almost takes the fun out of the game. So wherever you got your chart from, it's way too rigid in my book. If ESO is p2w, I honestly couldn't care less, while I do care in other games. p2w and p2w ain't the same.

Secondly: if it were p2w, is pay to win bad? If your game revolves around player competition, you could argue it is. In ESO only a part of the gameplay revolves around competition, gameplay that doesn't depend on individual prowess but group coordination for the most part. If someone pays to level faster, is that unfair? Why? Didn't he make a financial sacrifice for it? Don't the better and more expensive F1 cars produce better results than the less sophisticated versions? Don't athletes who have a top coach perform better than athletes whose neighbours are their main instructors? Yes. And money plays a role. So everything is p2w?

You say we should not compare ESO to other games. Why not? Is comparison not an accepted way of analysis? 'p2w' is an accepted process everywhere around the world. You pay to get things done, you don't pay, you don't get things done. I really don't understand why people get mad over it in videogames. And if they get mad, ESO should be their target least of all. The advantage money can buy is minor, and the competition in which it can be utilized hardly depends on individual level advantages nor makes up the majority of gameplay. By your flowchart it's p2w. In my mind it's a mild form of a universally applied and accepted practice that doesn't harm my enjoyment of the game whatsoever. I can still do whatever I want in the game I bought and be competitive without spending additional money.

vamp_emily · February 2016

I'm not the type of person that will say stuff like "OMG the DLC is coming out next week.. oh this is going to be the best DLC every!"

But honestly, I think anyone who plays this game and enjoys it should support the game and buy the DLCs or Subscribe. The amount of entertainment you get from it is priceless.

I don't think that is Pay to Win. It is more like supporting the game development.

Hope499 · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

gresiac wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

you want everything for free ?

ofc i dont but items that have big impact on game should be accsesible by everyone otherwise its pay to win

You dont understand what P2W is I am afraid....

You still have access to EVERYTHING you did before, they have removed ZERO content. All items and weapons and gear that was available at release, is still available.

There is no way to just "buy" the weapons, you still need to earn them, Works the same way as DSA/VDSA.

Is this your first MMO/expansion for a game?? Have you played anything else online before?

This is a VERY normal and standard way to do things.....

Mettaricana · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

No this has been the model for every mmo that jas buyable dlc or expansions you paid for the base game now pay for expansions if playera are too cheap or unwilling to pay or can't that's on them. I don't expext extra or better coverage on my car insurance without buying it same concept

Thavie · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

So every MMO is pay-to-win then. Because every MMO is selling expansions with new content and raids. Including WoW.
You should try to play chess - it's complitely free and there is no DLC for centuries.

urkonse · February 2016

Reply to tittle:

--More like ´Voice to win´ ._. , still no text chat

Digiman · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

You still have to consider RNG when getting them, to top it off all MMO's do this when they increase the gear gap through expansion packs.

Inarre · February 2016

Wait. What? You can win the game by wearing kinky clothing?

Lysette · February 2016

The more I read about how pvp people think, the less I am interested to ever try pvp in this game.

Jeraldan · February 2016

Ok ok, what does ESO Plus cost per month? As max ~ 13.00 EUR / USD right?

Well, that makes...

- 13 burgers, or...
- 2 packs of tobacco, or...
- 2 cocktails, or...
- the entrance fee to a disco, or...
- close to the entrance fee to a cinema, or...
- one of those fancy t-shirts, or...

Well, as you can see, there are many options to exclude per month, in order to pay yourself ESO Plus.

I mean, we're talking about 13 bucks?

Equilibriator · February 2016

exp boosters arent pay to win because the experience can be earned in game without cash. Making the process faster with money doesnt make it pay to win.

pay to win is very simple to analyse: does real money give you something that free ppl can never compete with.

an example: a sword that does 120 damage in a game is being sold for 20 quid, where every other weapon earned in game is 100 at best.

another example: cash shop sells an armour booster which adds an extra 20% armour value for 1 hour but all other booster items earned/crafted in game are only 10% at best.

now take those examples and let me ask you, if they then made that 120 sword and armour booster tradeable on the marketplace. is it still pay to win?

Lysette · February 2016

Just as a side note to this - there is nothing to win in this game beside fun and friends.

Cazic · February 2016

If you feel like you're going to lose at ESO just because you don't have a particular item set, then it's really more of a L2P issue than a P2W issue.

And no, ESO is not pay to win.

Function · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

these are cheap tactics and un ethical on my eyes obviously your moralities are diffrent...

What is moral about asking a company who spends a large sum of money developing new content to then give it out free? That isn't how the world works. If the game was still requiring a monthly subscription then yes, I would expect to get the new content without any other purchases but that isn't the case anymore.

vyrusb23 · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

That doesn't mean it's pay to win. It only means that it's pay to win in your mind.

Jeraldan · February 2016

Function wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

these are cheap tactics and un ethical on my eyes obviously your moralities are diffrent...

What is moral about asking a company who spends a large sum of money developing new content to then give it out free? That isn't how the world works. If the game was still requiring a monthly subscription then yes, I would expect to get the new content without any other purchases but that isn't the case anymore.

Actually, if you're subscribed to ESO Plus, you get the new content without any other purchases.

Soris · February 2016

Soris wrote: »

It's like pay to grind. You paying to grind a stupid dungeon +100 hours

I quote myself again. It is pay to grind. Discussion is over.
Here is your cookie

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

What's confusing the OP is that usually expansions increase character level and you don't get those unlocked levels without the expansion.

So you're 50 and expansion release and opens up to 55 with new gear to boot. It's pretty obvious you can't compete.

ESO has a paragon champion system (horrible MMO system) that confuses players and makes end game a mess.

So when DLC releases and levels don't change but new gear is locked behind a DLC - it may seem pay to win when it really is just poor implementation of end game

Function · February 2016

Jeraldan wrote: »

Function wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

these are cheap tactics and un ethical on my eyes obviously your moralities are diffrent...

What is moral about asking a company who spends a large sum of money developing new content to then give it out free? That isn't how the world works. If the game was still requiring a monthly subscription then yes, I would expect to get the new content without any other purchases but that isn't the case anymore.

Actually, if you're subscribed to ESO Plus, you get the new content without any other purchases.

Well yeah, that is how I access the content myself. I mean free for people who don't spend any more money after the original game purchase.

ZOS_MollyH · February 2016

Multiple posts have been removed from this thread for being abusive and insulting to other players, promoting conspiracy and misinformation.

There is a lot of good discussion and feedback going on in this thread, so we will open it back up, but any further infractions may result in the thread being locked and disciplinary action.

Autolycus · February 2016

Look, the answer to this question is really, really simple. You have to buy the content to play it. Simply purchasing the Wrothgar DLC doesn't give you access to vMA weapons, you still have to spend an entire afternoon learning how to do each of the arenas for a chance to get the item.

Pay to play, play to win.

Callous2208 · February 2016

Much respect was lost on this day, for those who normally post interesting topics of discussion on these forums. It would seem that today these unnamed forum regulars would throw logic and common sense to the wind, in order to support an op full of misguided ideals and false statements. Not that my respect means a lick to anyone, anyhow.