Have ESO become pay to win ?

SHADOW2KK

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zenimax are riding a bike on the thin line of Pay 2 Win, they just wont cross it anytime soon

Agreed

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Duiwel wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

@Duiwel This is why non-subscription MMO's are inherently drawn to pay-to-win type systems. This is why Matt Firor said, when justifying the sub model prior to launch said...

Matt Firor wrote:

Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

https://www.primagames.com/games/elder-scrolls-online/news/elder-scrolls-online-will-come-monthly-subscriptio

They eventually went with another model, and they are making those sacrifices they weren't will to make before.

I understand that and I know theives guild was suppose to be added to the base game, but this game also wasn't planned to go free to play. Regardless of what their initial intentions/ plans were things happened that were eout of their control and their business department made a call to pull sub and go for cash store in order to keep the ship afloat. Take SWTOR - it was dying as a sub based MMO, yet as a F2P / (with an extremely expensive cash shop) it lives still with a small but healthy population. So while it saddens me that I have to pay for small DLC packs like thieves guild I am an adult and I understand these things happen.

BUT given this information OP do you have a job? Do you do things for free? Since you told Gidorick don't waste his breath, ESO:TU has employees who work and pay for electricity, internet and food. Do you think you buying the game almost 2 years ago is enough to pay for all of that forever?

OP I am curious what country you are from which has such a poor exchange rate that you feel you are being misled by having to pay for DLC to be able to participate in new content... It is not a "cheap tactic" it's called business 101, god

If they hadnt went buy to play you would be paying $15 a month plus $25 for the DLC. They never said anything about it being free ever.

Exactly my point! I sub btw so I don't know these "I can't access this content" feels

I havent subbed since they went B2P. I just dont see the point in it. I dont need the xp boosts or gold boosts. Its cheaper to just buy the DLC when it comes out than pay per month.

Julianos

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

@Duiwel This is why non-subscription MMO's are inherently drawn to pay-to-win type systems. This is why Matt Firor said, when justifying the sub model prior to launch said...

Matt Firor wrote:

Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

https://www.primagames.com/games/elder-scrolls-online/news/elder-scrolls-online-will-come-monthly-subscriptio

They eventually went with another model, and they are making those sacrifices they weren't will to make before.

I understand that and I know theives guild was suppose to be added to the base game, but this game also wasn't planned to go free to play. Regardless of what their initial intentions/ plans were things happened that were eout of their control and their business department made a call to pull sub and go for cash store in order to keep the ship afloat. Take SWTOR - it was dying as a sub based MMO, yet as a F2P / (with an extremely expensive cash shop) it lives still with a small but healthy population. So while it saddens me that I have to pay for small DLC packs like thieves guild I am an adult and I understand these things happen.

BUT given this information OP do you have a job? Do you do things for free? Since you told Gidorick don't waste his breath, ESO:TU has employees who work and pay for electricity, internet and food. Do you think you buying the game almost 2 years ago is enough to pay for all of that forever?

OP I am curious what country you are from which has such a poor exchange rate that you feel you are being misled by having to pay for DLC to be able to participate in new content... It is not a "cheap tactic" it's called business 101, god

If they hadnt went buy to play you would be paying $15 a month plus $25 for the DLC. They never said anything about it being free ever.

Exactly my point! I sub btw so I don't know these "I can't access this content" feels

I havent subbed since they went B2P. I just dont see the point in it. I dont need the xp boosts or gold boosts. Its cheaper to just buy the DLC when it comes out than pay per month.

Point is you can accumulate extra crowns to buy costumes and mounts/pets and other stuff while helping ZOS economy.

Kippesnikke

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

lol. u make no sense.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Axorn wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

@Duiwel This is why non-subscription MMO's are inherently drawn to pay-to-win type systems. This is why Matt Firor said, when justifying the sub model prior to launch said...

Matt Firor wrote:

Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

https://www.primagames.com/games/elder-scrolls-online/news/elder-scrolls-online-will-come-monthly-subscriptio

They eventually went with another model, and they are making those sacrifices they weren't will to make before.

I understand that and I know theives guild was suppose to be added to the base game, but this game also wasn't planned to go free to play. Regardless of what their initial intentions/ plans were things happened that were eout of their control and their business department made a call to pull sub and go for cash store in order to keep the ship afloat. Take SWTOR - it was dying as a sub based MMO, yet as a F2P / (with an extremely expensive cash shop) it lives still with a small but healthy population. So while it saddens me that I have to pay for small DLC packs like thieves guild I am an adult and I understand these things happen.

BUT given this information OP do you have a job? Do you do things for free? Since you told Gidorick don't waste his breath, ESO:TU has employees who work and pay for electricity, internet and food. Do you think you buying the game almost 2 years ago is enough to pay for all of that forever?

OP I am curious what country you are from which has such a poor exchange rate that you feel you are being misled by having to pay for DLC to be able to participate in new content... It is not a "cheap tactic" it's called business 101, god

If they hadnt went buy to play you would be paying $15 a month plus $25 for the DLC. They never said anything about it being free ever.

Exactly my point! I sub btw so I don't know these "I can't access this content" feels

I havent subbed since they went B2P. I just dont see the point in it. I dont need the xp boosts or gold boosts. Its cheaper to just buy the DLC when it comes out than pay per month.

Point is you can accumulate extra crowns to buy costumes and mounts/pets and other stuff while helping ZOS economy.

Im not interested in playing barbie dress up. I have 3 mounts I dont need any more. If they want help with their "economy" they should put out better expansions faster.

GaldorP

I don't have a problem with the fact that some of the best items in the game can only be obtained in the latest DLC. B2P is the game's business model after all, and it's easy enough to sub for a month or two to get access to all DLCs or to just buy the latest one with crowns.

What I don't like (or wouldn't like) is if all previous content, including previous DLCs, suddenly became completely irrelevant because a new DLC has been released. Existing content should continue to be of some relevance, in my opinion (there should be things to obtain there that some players want). Of course, the newest content will always be the most interesting for many players when it's newly released.

What I really like is how in the Thieves Guild update the gear you get in the new trial is designed to make you better in trials, the gear you obtain in PvP is made for PvP, some of the gear you obtain in Thieves Guild quests is designed to make you better in those quests. But there's still some sets that are useful in general which aren't designed for a specific type of content.

However, ESO needs more rare things that can be traded. I understand that the Bind on Pickup mechanic is there so players need to earn some of their gear (usually the gear that is the hardest to obtain in the game) and can't just buy it for gold when the new DLC is released, but making too many things Bind on Pickup is detrimental to the market.

My suggestion was to add a new Attribute system for veteran set items (and some unique veteran non set items like Master or Maelstrom weapons) so those items would have up to 5 additional randomized attributes. Rare materials would be needed to craft a set item with those Attributes, to re-roll the trait on an item, to re-roll the Attributes on an item, to upgrade or downgrade its level, or to upgrade the quality of a piece of jewelry. Those new rare crafting materials could ideally be found in all types of content (treasure chests, thieves troves, crafting writs, hirelings, rewards for the worthy, Tel'Var stones, one-time quests, as drop from regular monsters, from bosses in group dungeons, bosses in trials, from world bosses, dark anchors, Maelstrom Arena, Orsinium daily quests, etc.; higher drop chances in content that is more difficult and requires more organization). This would help new players to make some gold fast and give rich veteran players something to spend their gold or AP on without creating too much of a power gap. It would also be an incentive for players to continue doing any type of existing content.

likelolwhat

I'm resisting the urge to take a red pen to OP's posts...

In all seriousness, it's not pay-to-win, as @jamesharv2005ub17_ESO articulated. What we are paying for is a faster way to get to the field in which we can win, not the win itself.

I've been spending my crowns on Costumes, ofc. Finding the right outfit to complement my vampire's pasty skin is all sorts of awesome. The Battlemage Scout Captain Uniform is my favorite thus far...



/tangent

phillyboy7897

Yea scrolls don't make it pay to win. Psijic ambrosia is 4k and I farm 60k an hour. It's not a deal for me to have boosted xp while farming obviously.

But omg /scrolls on crown

U want to play an mmo Which is releasing new content and pay absolutely nothing and get the same content as players paying for that new content. That doesnt actually exist bro. U have no leg to stand on with these arguments. U are a leech

Buy the dlcs support the game otherwise ur getting a free ride off the rest of us while crying about not having maelstrom weapon

Soris

It's like pay to grind. You paying to grind a stupid dungeon +100 hours

Xellos77

Axorn wrote: »

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

If you like a game you buy expansions or DLC, right? If you don't buy the expansion you still have the game and the best weapons available for the "vanilla" game, right?

This is not rocket science. Almost all games (MMO or not) have expansion packs/DLC that grant access to new material/items/characters/tweaks/etc. About 99% of the time you pay for that content. There are exceptions, however, like when Witcher 3 was released there were periodic freebies leading up to the expansion (that was paid for). Diablo 3 continues to get updates even though it's not a subscription based game.

While I don't agree with absolutely everything ZOS has done in terms of "MMO' status of ESO, you've gotta look at the bigger picture here instead of crying about content you don't have access to because you chose not to buy it. You've already got a full-length game for ~$60 (maybe you paid less).

Stop crying.

OR pony up the $15 per month for instant access to all DLC, Crown allotment each month, and increased XP gains. Unless, of course, you cannot afford $ .30 per day. In which case I recommend seriously reconsidering your career choice.

Darkonflare15

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

@Duiwel This is why non-subscription MMO's are inherently drawn to pay-to-win type systems. This is why Matt Firor said, when justifying the sub model prior to launch said...

Matt Firor wrote:

Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

https://www.primagames.com/games/elder-scrolls-online/news/elder-scrolls-online-will-come-monthly-subscriptio

They eventually went with another model, and they are making those sacrifices they weren't will to make before.

I understand that and I know theives guild was suppose to be added to the base game, but this game also wasn't planned to go free to play. Regardless of what their initial intentions/ plans were things happened that were eout of their control and their business department made a call to pull sub and go for cash store in order to keep the ship afloat. Take SWTOR - it was dying as a sub based MMO, yet as a F2P / (with an extremely expensive cash shop) it lives still with a small but healthy population. So while it saddens me that I have to pay for small DLC packs like thieves guild I am an adult and I understand these things happen.

BUT given this information OP do you have a job? Do you do things for free? Since you told Gidorick don't waste his breath, ESO:TU has employees who work and pay for electricity, internet and food. Do you think you buying the game almost 2 years ago is enough to pay for all of that forever?

OP I am curious what country you are from which has such a poor exchange rate that you feel you are being misled by having to pay for DLC to be able to participate in new content... It is not a "cheap tactic" it's called business 101, god

If they hadnt went buy to play you would be paying $15 a month plus $25 for the DLC. They never said anything about it being free ever.

Exactly my point! I sub btw so I don't know these "I can't access this content" feels

I havent subbed since they went B2P. I just dont see the point in it. I dont need the xp boosts or gold boosts. Its cheaper to just buy the DLC when it comes out than pay per month.

Point is you can accumulate extra crowns to buy costumes and mounts/pets and other stuff while helping ZOS economy.

Im not interested in playing barbie dress up. I have 3 mounts I dont need any more. If they want help with their "economy" they should put out better expansions faster.

OK points are differ when it comes to the same thing. In actauality, no matter what your view point is. Is not going to make a difference on what a person value of an item is. This conversation is losing its tact. Especially with the "playing barbie dress up" remark. It basically an indirect insult to people who prefer to do this. If a debate gets to the point when you have to belittle the other person than it is about time to agree to disagree and move along.

Xellos77

This argument about P2W is interesting but flawed.

It's only P2W if you can buy something for cash that gives you a direct advantage and the purchase in question is something NOT obtainable in the game otherwise. Imagine if a beastly sword or staff was offered that smoked every other weapon in the game, and it was $20. That's P2W.

Someone buying XP scrolls or vampire bites for cash is NOT P2W because these can be found in-game (okay, the scrolls no.. but potions can be made).

Just because someone blows a wad on XP scrolls, riding lessons, and motifs does not give them a lasting advantage over another player. Sure, in the present time it does, but in the end it has no affect on the difference between two characters. One spends time, the other spends money. They both end up the same.

Drop it.

yake82

Axorn wrote: »

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

Axorn wrote: »

Prabooo wrote: »

Molag Kena shoulders drop from undaunted chests rewards. They will also be able to be purchased for gold or AP.
You can also subscribe to ESO plus and benefit temporarily from the DLC's without having to buy them.

obviosuly no one reads my other posts i been subbing since PC launch till last month...

So you didnt beat vMA?

Lysette

I see it from a different perspective. The question, I am asking is, can someone, who has not that much time to play the game, become a competitive "endgame" player, when he throws money at the game?- Then it would be pay to win, because money could replace the effort required to win. If this is not given, then it is not pay to win, because he will never win, regardless how much money he will throw at the game.

In fact ESO is grind to win - someone who has not the time to play a whole lot and do boring stuff over and over again will never get a foot in the door to even get near to "win". Me for example, I do not have the time to do that, so i will never win, regardless how much money I would throw at the game, it will never happen - so this is not pay to win at all.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

@Duiwel This is why non-subscription MMO's are inherently drawn to pay-to-win type systems. This is why Matt Firor said, when justifying the sub model prior to launch said...

Matt Firor wrote:

Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

https://www.primagames.com/games/elder-scrolls-online/news/elder-scrolls-online-will-come-monthly-subscriptio

They eventually went with another model, and they are making those sacrifices they weren't will to make before.

I understand that and I know theives guild was suppose to be added to the base game, but this game also wasn't planned to go free to play. Regardless of what their initial intentions/ plans were things happened that were eout of their control and their business department made a call to pull sub and go for cash store in order to keep the ship afloat. Take SWTOR - it was dying as a sub based MMO, yet as a F2P / (with an extremely expensive cash shop) it lives still with a small but healthy population. So while it saddens me that I have to pay for small DLC packs like thieves guild I am an adult and I understand these things happen.

BUT given this information OP do you have a job? Do you do things for free? Since you told Gidorick don't waste his breath, ESO:TU has employees who work and pay for electricity, internet and food. Do you think you buying the game almost 2 years ago is enough to pay for all of that forever?

OP I am curious what country you are from which has such a poor exchange rate that you feel you are being misled by having to pay for DLC to be able to participate in new content... It is not a "cheap tactic" it's called business 101, god

If they hadnt went buy to play you would be paying $15 a month plus $25 for the DLC. They never said anything about it being free ever.

Exactly my point! I sub btw so I don't know these "I can't access this content" feels

I havent subbed since they went B2P. I just dont see the point in it. I dont need the xp boosts or gold boosts. Its cheaper to just buy the DLC when it comes out than pay per month.

Point is you can accumulate extra crowns to buy costumes and mounts/pets and other stuff while helping ZOS economy.

Im not interested in playing barbie dress up. I have 3 mounts I dont need any more. If they want help with their "economy" they should put out better expansions faster.

OK points are differ when it comes to the same thing. In actauality, no matter what your view point is. Is not going to make a difference on what a person value of an item is. This conversation is losing its tact. Especially with the "playing barbie dress up" remark. It basically an indirect insult to people who prefer to do this. If a debate gets to the point when you have to belittle the other person than it is about time to agree to disagree and move along.

I was talking about myself. I never mentioned anyone else. Thats something you read into it.

TayDibiase

Stop being cheap. If you dont want to buy dlcs dont. If you want kena and vmsa weapons then spend 15$ to sub for a month and farn vwgt and vmsa. Its not a lot. Sheesh. Btw pay to win to me would be eso selling sets in the crown store better than hundings, julianos or 2x born imho

NativeJoe

Hrmmm.... my stance is... this game isn't pay to win because I bought the dlc and couldn't ring myself a molag kena out of it till just 3 days ago. and my bought and paid for orsinium isn't going to give me any additional gear I need. And the next DLC, theives guild... Doesn't have any gear I need for any of my specs. going to buy that, but once again not going to improve my character one iota.

And further with the implementation of getting gear directly from a vendor in pvp, in theory you'll have access to DLC only drops. theoretically anyway. if so that decreases the p2w feeling as well.

Even if I had 300,000 crowns right now, I couldn't turn that into any ingame gold atm... and im broke due to everything being BOP and having nothing to sell because I don't have time to farm materials 24/7

So yeah... It isn't p2w imo... almost wish it was just a little at this particular momment x.x

LBxFinalDeath

Yep its pay to win alright with all those Orsinium, IC, and upcoming TG sets that are just mandatory in order to do most things.

Ya' know...THOSE things...right?

Molag Kena is ofc necessary to be any kind of successful in this game right? Its mandatory right?

Its like impossible to beat the main storyline without the agility set right?

Turelus

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

This.

Acsvf

There are certainly distinct advantages, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that.

Tyrion87

Yeah... it would be the best not to introduce the DLCs at all or to make them available for everyone for free...
The people's logic will never stop to amaze me...
It's obvious that the new DLC comes with the new content which is not only the quests or a new zone to explore, but also the rewards for doing them.
I have all DLCs but still none of those super-hyper-fantastic monster sets. And I'm not complaining.
The base game still offers some attractive sets, of which some you can craft by yourself, while the others can be found in the dungeons etc.

Tandor

I'm surprised the purists aren't arguing that buying the base game in the first place is P2W, after all you can't "win" the game if you don't buy it.

Given that they are not pursuing that argument, however, it seems to me a simple extension of buying the base game to buy the DLC. Moreover, you don't even have to buy the DLC if you sub which is the business model favoured by most of those who see P2W behind any cash shop such as the Crown Store. There will of course also be those who raise the P2W argument as part of their objection to any form of payment beyond the box purchase because they expect to get everything else for free.

You can't in all honesty expect to get as far in a game if you don't elect to get the extra content, whether it comes in the form of an expansion or DLC. The real test of P2W is whether there is top-performing gear that you can only buy in the cash shop assuming that you already have the base game and subsequent expansions/DLCs. In the case of ESO that is not the case, and I've yet to be persuaded that the game in any way comprises P2W.

It seems to me that ZOS have done a great job of keeping the Crown Store out of the P2W sphere, and not only that but they keep to an absolute minimum the intrusion of the Crown Store and ESO+ compared to other games that have huge cash shop icons in the UI and reminder screens that appear as soon as you log out etc. It's true that occasionally you log in and get the Crown Store deals showing, but even that is minimal compared to those games that show it every single time you log in, and it's only a single click to get rid of it.

kevlarto_ESO

Short answer no. If it was i would not play the game elder scrolls store is a very modest store compared to most others.

vladimilianoub17_ESO1

ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

So you want ZoS to continue to throw money at a game they will make substantially less money on? Crown Store is nice and all, but I'd be willing to bet most of their profits come from DLCs.

I dont want that ZOS can still make money from DLCs or costumes but restricting the newest best items is pay to win otherwise why they went to buy to play method first place ?

...to make people want to buy their content. You're choosing to gimp yourself by not paying for the dlc to earn the gear for yourself. Its not pay to win, it's them trying to make a profit.

agree and a fair way to make profit.What a committed mmo player want in their game? content, we want the game to keep having content.What ZOS wants? profit.We both win.The more we buy their DLC the more they get motivated to develope DLC our game keeps growing and we make sure the game dont shutdown or become p2w.

slumber_sandb16_ESO

If you want access to DLC content you need to buy the DLC, simple as that. Pay to win, buy to win whatever else. ESO is subscription free, they need to make money somehow. Stop expecting everything to be handed for free just because you want it.

They're not selling item sets in the crown store, the closest thing you get to pay to win is experience scrolls.. and guess what, there's something called psijic ambrosia that you can buy at pretty much any guild trader in the game.

If they gave access to DLC item sets then most people wouldnt buy the DLCs then they wouldnt get money to make new DLCs so they'd have to resort to desperate measures like selling exclusive item sets in the crown store...

One DLC every 3 months or so. €20 every 3 months. I spend more than that on pizza.

Chillic

I wouldn't have any gear at all if I didn't buy the game... that's not fair!!!

Anhedonie

You can stay competitive without Kena/Maelstrom weapons.
But the day they start to sell OP abilities they'll be doomed.

But it's unlikely to happen. P2W is not good for reputation and ZOS still cares about stuff like that, I think.

So the answer is no, or at least not yet.

b92303008rwb17_ESO

Axorn wrote: »

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

You don't get to play the advanced class if you don't purchase the expansion. You don't get to reach level cap if you don't purchase expansions. This list can go on and on. BoP might be a problem but it's nowhere near P2W. The notion that just because you can buy DLCs with crowns means they are crown store stuff and ESO is P2W is simply ridiculous.

The way I see it, ESO has never gone B2P, let alone P2W. It is always a subscription game in the disguise of B2P, the difference being players are free to choose which DLCs to buy or not. It's just meaningless arguing over whether it's B2P or P2W.

EsoRecon

Not pay to win @Axorn trust me you will know if the game goes p2w because the community will riot and burn down zenimax studios. Or everyone will just leave.

I_killed_Vivec

While you don't get anything for buying DLC (you still have to work for items), if you don't buy it then you are excluded from some items that might make you more powerful.

"Don't pay, don't win" might be more accurate than P2W.

I thought that ZOS was straying into P2W when they started selling "convenience" items - items that undermine the in-game economy and provide a benefit for those who don't want to spend time crafting or getting gold. Yes, ambrosia is part of the game, but it is a massive time sink if you are going to firstly collect the pages and secondly to do all the fishing and harvesting - to make a potion that isn't as good as the scrolls that you can buy.

"Cosmetic" is OK, "convenience" is a slippery slope...