Melee is so weak they are getting booted out of Dungeon Groups

Reykice · May 2014

Hello everyone!

Both me and my friend want to play the same build but he has more time so he made it up to VR8... when he started grouping for Dungeons.

He managed to clear a few before finding a group that had a dps meter and after the 1st boss they told him to get better dps as he was lagging behind the other sorcerer - the other sorcerer was using his own hp to have mana and spam Crystal Fragments over and over from what it looked like.(i was at his place watching him play)

At the 2nd boss he got booted out because his 380 dps was too little(he had to move a bit) and they said they are bringing another ranged caster sorc to replace him.

Melee is currently too weak, it should do more damage because the risk you take by being in melee range is huge - in the VR ranks mobs can 2-3 shot you while a caster spamming ranged spells doesn`t even get hit. GW 2 balanced this by making melee do more damage to compensate for the time they have to run getting into melee range or chasing the boss.

I see people with melee weapons getting killed all the time in VR content while magic ranged builds just CC them to death or when bored just AOE them with no problem.

With Craglorn coming up i doubt most guilds will even bother with melee physical damage build and just ask them to respec as right now nothing beats the Crystal Shard spammers and other magic builds.

Jade1986 · May 2014

I am going to have to agree, melee needs a boost ,especially two handers. I went into a dungeon today, and someone used that crystal shard spell, took oever half the enemies health, and I was using two abilities that boost my damage, plus superior weapons that are enchanted, and I was lucky if I did HALF his damage. He was 1 level in front of me.

Arsenic_Touch · May 2014

...there is an API restriction that was added during one of the beta tests that prevents dps addons such as recount from determining other player values, only your own. So how exactly are they determining his dps when there is an api restriction preventing that?

In short, all dps addons can only determine the damage you do and the damage you take. Nothing else from other players.

Melee is not weak, at all. There's a reason why a 2h DK is arguably the strongest class in the game.

Those people claiming his dps was weak are full of it because they had no way of knowing what his dps was unless he had the addon and was announcing it to them.

Also, the reason why so many melee dps players die quickly is because they think they can face roll a boss or mob and that's not how this game works. I know plenty of people that melee dps and have ZERO issue with veteran content because they built their character to survive and know how to play a melee class properly.

All in all, this is pretty much a non issue.

Kayvee · May 2014

I play a Dragon Knight melee-caster and I have no problems churning out damage. I use the Ardent Flame tree and a resto staff enchanted with magicka return. I have all of my attribute points put into magicka.

Class skills do seem to be a lot more powerful than weapon skills though, or at least benefit from magicka attribute points more than weapons benefit from stamina attributes.

Jade1986 · May 2014

Kayvee wrote: »

I play a Dragon Knight melee-caster and I have no problems churning out damage. I use the Ardent Flame tree and a resto staff enchanted with magicka return. I have all of my attribute points put into magicka.

Class skills do seem to be a lot more powerful than weapon skills though, or at least benefit from magicka attribute points more than weapons benefit from stamina attributes.

I have noticed this as well, so either the class skills need a bit of toning down, or the weapon skills need a bit of an buff. I only use my weapon skill line (2h) and the fighters guild tree, with the DK chain attack and the dragon standard because otherwise I wouldn't have an ultimate for 10 years due to the FG skills leveling..............so......................slow...........I really wanted to make a character that uses 0 magic, but I guess in this game, that is not possible until lvl 40 +....

Gilvoth · May 2014

i hate being lied to. they said these type of addons were not allowed to get thru.

Reykice · May 2014

The DK uses mostly class skills(magic) not physical damage that`s why its strong...

You can still see your dps so if you are asked and say a low number you will be kicked. If you lie and they figure it out by adding their own DPS and the length of the fight you will get kicked and ignored....

All the API change did was make it impossible for YOU to see the DPS another person does, but that person knows it and can share it also if you add up the DPS and the length of the fight you can easily see if people are lying.

Arsenic_Touch · May 2014

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

i hate being lied to. they said these type of addons were not allowed to get thru.

You weren't lied to. The API function was disabled.

LazerusKI · May 2014

What was his class? out of curiosity.
With my NB i have the same problem, because most of our skills do not work. Reapers Mark as an example or anything that applies a status effect.

Im still wondering why there is no "sneak attack" mechanik (like skyrim) that gives at least a small bonus when attacking from behind. would make a huge difference when you consider the risk of melee compared to ranged.

but yeah...currently one of the best groups is made with 3 tanks and one heal i think...shieldbash for the win -.-

Nooblet · May 2014

I dont believe its because the dmg is less in every situation(or maybe his was), and more because some fights are a bit harder to melee. If you want to limit yourself to one role in a group when you could use your 2nd weapon to swap to in phases or bosses that aren't ideal to melee... well that choice is yours. But its also the choice of a group leader to take someone that's more versatile.

Also if they are relying on past experiences to determine what the other dps is doing.. that may not be accurate. There are 4 people in a group. Some tanks, and some healers do significantly more than others, which may make it seem like the other dps isnt up to par(if you are the dps and have done it before) However, the difference may lie with the tank and healer.(I know some healers that dont dps at all)

Reykice · May 2014

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

i hate being lied to. they said these type of addons were not allowed to get thru.

I`ll say it again as i guess i wasn`t clear: Group DPS addons are not working, but your dps addon will work and show you your dps and so on.

In a group they can always ask for numbers from everyone but once people figure out melee does less DPS they won`t need to ask for damage numbers, they will just kick you for being melee. They need to balance this soon if they want melee players to stay competitive.

Saerydoth · May 2014

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

...there is an API restriction that was added during one of the beta tests that prevents dps addons such as recount from determining other player values, only your own. So how exactly are they determining his dps when there is an api restriction preventing that?

In short, all dps addons can only determine the damage you do and the damage you take. Nothing else from other players.

Melee is not weak, at all. There's a reason why a 2h DK is arguably the strongest class in the game.

Those people claiming his dps was weak are full of it because they had no way of knowing what his dps was unless he had the addon and was announcing it to them.

Also, the reason why so many melee dps players die quickly is because they think they can face roll a boss or mob and that's not how this game works. I know plenty of people that melee dps and have ZERO issue with veteran content because they built their character to survive and know how to play a melee class properly.

All in all, this is pretty much a non issue.

If this is the case, that's awesome. DPS addons like Recount destroyed the community in WOW because everything became about how much DPS you could do, with nothing else mattering.

If Zenimax has indeed made it so addons can't measure other players' DPS (only your own), that's really nice and they should definitely keep it that way.

Reykice · May 2014

LazerusKI wrote: »

What was his class? out of curiosity.
With my NB i have the same problem, because most of our skills do not work. Reapers Mark as an example or anything that applies a status effect.

Im still wondering why there is no "sneak attack" mechanik (like skyrim) that gives at least a small bonus when attacking from behind. would make a huge difference when you consider the risk of melee compared to ranged.

but yeah...currently one of the best groups is made with 3 tanks and one heal i think...shieldbash for the win -.-

He is using a Sorcerer and with Crit Surge he was well over the weapon damage cap and the stamina soft cap but apparently that is not enough...

Arsenic_Touch · May 2014

Saerydoth wrote: »

If this is the case, that's awesome. DPS addons like Recount destroyed the community in WOW because everything became about how much DPS you could do, with nothing else mattering.

If Zenimax has indeed made it so addons can't measure other players' DPS (only your own), that's really nice and they should definitely keep it that way.

Recount wasn't the issue in wow. All end game content revolved around doing certain amount of damage in a specific amount of time. If someone was under performing, the entire group would fail.

Gearscore was the problem because even if your gearscore was below the "threshold" that people wanted you could still do competitive dps, but people wouldn't invite you because you didn't get that RNG item drop to up your score.
That's what ruined the community.

rangerluna375 · May 2014

Im still tinkering with mine DK. I started out using the TH line, and it was horrible. Then I started messing around with the actual class trees and they are much better.

Reykice · May 2014

Saerydoth wrote: »

show previous quotes

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

...there is an API restriction that was added during one of the beta tests that prevents dps addons such as recount from determining other player values, only your own. So how exactly are they determining his dps when there is an api restriction preventing that?

In short, all dps addons can only determine the damage you do and the damage you take. Nothing else from other players.

Melee is not weak, at all. There's a reason why a 2h DK is arguably the strongest class in the game.

Those people claiming his dps was weak are full of it because they had no way of knowing what his dps was unless he had the addon and was announcing it to them.

Also, the reason why so many melee dps players die quickly is because they think they can face roll a boss or mob and that's not how this game works. I know plenty of people that melee dps and have ZERO issue with veteran content because they built their character to survive and know how to play a melee class properly.

All in all, this is pretty much a non issue.

If this is the case, that's awesome. DPS addons like Recount destroyed the community in WOW because everything became about how much DPS you could do, with nothing else mattering.

If Zenimax has indeed made it so addons can't measure other players' DPS (only your own), that's really nice and they should definitely keep it that way.

How long do you think it will take before guilds make their own research and figure out(most already did) that ranged magic dps > all and begin to only take that into dungeons.(once the bash spam is fixed)

Sure in a Pug they won`t see your exact dps but they will know you are the weak link as a melee player and boot you first anyway. Its even worse like this as you might not be the lowest dps, maybe the ranged caster is a bad player but they can`t KNOW that without a DPS meter so they will just think its you since testing clearly shows ranger caster dps >>>> melee dps.

AlliN · May 2014

It's somewhat true, but not directly becasue of the weakness of melee builds - they tend to be VERy dps intensive...

...in a tank and spank fight

But, there is a lot of movement in ESO, that is not a bad thing, makes fights harder - but it also makes boss uptime of melee dps significantly lower.

So, yes, with the current look of melee, there is almost no reason to take anything but ranged, both bow based and staff based.

LazerusKI · May 2014

AlliN wrote: »

It's somewhat true, but not directly becasue of the weakness of melee builds - they tend to be VERy dps intensive...

...in a tank and spank fight

But, there is a lot of movement in ESO, that is not a bad thing, makes fights harder - but it also makes boss uptime of melee dps significantly lower.

So, yes, with the current look of melee, there is almost no reason to take anything but ranged, both bow based and staff based.

indeed. currently most of the damage comes from the tank and the sorc.
Ability-Nightblade is the funny guy who is poking the target with his glowing sticks, dualwielders are the glue-sniffing guys who sacrifice damage for a long impressive animation.
from melee-skillstrees i still think 2H is the most usefull AFTER shieldbash.

In dungeons i switched to my bow most of the times, because melee was mostly suicide for my Dualwield-NB who uses class-abilitys only - not because its bad, because its bugged.
With my bow i can stand safe near our healer and shoot arrows, sometimes even snipe them.

clocksstoppe · May 2014

if what you are saying is true, this is bad. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon and our melee dps was dying constantly due to having to stay near the boss. most heavy aoe attacks would oneshot him and it couldnt be helped. But to also have lower dps than a ranged guy is just horrible

Jade1986 · May 2014

clocksstoppe wrote: »

if what you are saying is true, this is bad. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon and our melee dps was dying constantly due to having to stay near the boss. most heavy aoe attacks would oneshot him and it couldnt be helped. But to also have lower dps than a ranged guy is just horrible

It is true, get someone with blue gear that is using the 2 handed skill line, and then someone that has blue sorcerer gear and using the dark magic skill line, the sorcerer will out dps the 2 handed by a mile. Its kind of ridiculous. All weapon skill trees need a buff.

Reykice · May 2014

The limiting factor was that you ran out of magicka spamming the class skills but with Equilibrium + a healer this is not an issue in dungeons so the class skills builds are doing a lot more damage right now.

LazerusKI · May 2014

laced wrote: »

show previous quotes

clocksstoppe wrote: »

if what you are saying is true, this is bad. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon and our melee dps was dying constantly due to having to stay near the boss. most heavy aoe attacks would oneshot him and it couldnt be helped. But to also have lower dps than a ranged guy is just horrible

It is true, get someone with blue gear that is using the 2 handed skill line, and then someone that has blue sorcerer gear and using the dark magic skill line, the sorcerer will out dps the 2 handed by a mile. Its kind of ridiculous. All weapon skill trees need a buff.

atleast the bow is balanced compared to melee. deals slightly less dps i think, because of its low rate of fire.
i think it looks currently like that
Magic > Shieldbash > Abilities (except NB, because NB has no real attacks and everything else is bugged) > Melee/Bow

Jade1986 · May 2014

LazerusKI wrote: »

show previous quotes

laced wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

if what you are saying is true, this is bad. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon and our melee dps was dying constantly due to having to stay near the boss. most heavy aoe attacks would oneshot him and it couldnt be helped. But to also have lower dps than a ranged guy is just horrible

It is true, get someone with blue gear that is using the 2 handed skill line, and then someone that has blue sorcerer gear and using the dark magic skill line, the sorcerer will out dps the 2 handed by a mile. Its kind of ridiculous. All weapon skill trees need a buff.

atleast the bow is balanced compared to melee. deals slightly less dps i think, because of its low rate of fire.
i think it looks currently like that
Magic > Shieldbash > Abilities (except NB, because NB has no real attacks and everything else is bugged) > Melee/Bow

Here is hoping they do some serious balancing, because I use melee atm w/o magic aside from the Might Standard......

Also bugs me that weapon skills didn't get any ultimates......

Reykice · May 2014

laced wrote: »

show previous quotes

LazerusKI wrote: »

laced wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

if what you are saying is true, this is bad. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon and our melee dps was dying constantly due to having to stay near the boss. most heavy aoe attacks would oneshot him and it couldnt be helped. But to also have lower dps than a ranged guy is just horrible

It is true, get someone with blue gear that is using the 2 handed skill line, and then someone that has blue sorcerer gear and using the dark magic skill line, the sorcerer will out dps the 2 handed by a mile. Its kind of ridiculous. All weapon skill trees need a buff.

atleast the bow is balanced compared to melee. deals slightly less dps i think, because of its low rate of fire.
i think it looks currently like that
Magic > Shieldbash > Abilities (except NB, because NB has no real attacks and everything else is bugged) > Melee/Bow

Here is hoping they do some serious balancing, because I use melee atm w/o magic aside from the Might Standard......

Also bugs me that weapon skills didn't get any ultimates......

The "melee" ulti is the Flawless Dawnbreaker from the Fighters Guild, it increases damage when slotted. Kind of like the Resto Staff for casters.

Yes they need to rebalance the weapon skills badly, the funny thing is they are buffing the Destro Staff abilities with the Craglorn patch but no buffs for the physical damage weapons. Maybe not enough people play physical builds so they are not as relevant in the statistics ZENIMAX uses.

Either way, at endgame when casters can get spell damage enchants on their gear(1 spell damage was calculated to give them approx. 0.5% damage, currently a spell damage enchant = 12 spell damage @ endgame) they out DPS melee quite a lot and they are getting buffed in the Craglorn patch as ZENIMAX is giving them 1 spell damage per VR level...

So its good and getting better if you are a magic user but no light at the end of the tunnel for physical damage users so far.....

Jade1986 · May 2014

It takes SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO long to get that ultimate though . I have my other normal skills at 40 almost, and my fighters guild lvl isn't passed 6!

I had to break and use at least the grapple move to get the DK Dragon standard ultimate to deal with group situations.

And they are REALLY buffing magic users? yeah that's just dumb.....

ShintaiDK · May 2014

Sorcs/Destruction staff needs a nerf rather than boosting melee.

Jade1986 · May 2014

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Sorcs/Destruction staff needs a nerf rather than boosting melee.

Any way they do it, a nice balancing update would be nice.

Reykice · May 2014

Yes the destro staff skills are getting a damage buff and so is every caster as they are giving them 1 spell damage for every VR level... and casters are not reaching their spell damage soft cap unlike melee who lose a lot of weapon damage if they try to boost it while using 2h weapons or DW(as they are close to the soft cap naturally)

This is why i made this thread to try and get their attention faster so they can look at this.

Also, its not JUST sorcs, DK`s can also do it via dots and so on... its magic as a whole that is stronger.

ShintaiDK · May 2014

laced wrote: »

Any way they do it, a nice balancing update would be nice.

The soloing Sorcs/DS in public dungeons should have been a hint for zenimax that they need a nerf, rather than boost.

Shield bash (+bash dmg jewlery) and DK standard of might gets nerfed besides the tripple nerf to vamps.

The missing part here should be DS/Sorc nerf plus boost of all melee. Bow is fine as it is.

LazerusKI · May 2014

btw, where do you have that from? can can find the Destro-Stuff buff, but not the spell damage per veteran-level.

pmn100b16_ESO · May 2014

As I struggle through vet content on my broken NB, all I see around me are destruction staff users running into 4/5 mobs spamming impulse and killing everything in seconds. And they're going to make it stronger! O.o