Stamina builds need to be address immediately or else this game will die a slow death.

Tobiz · June 2014

SilverWF wrote: »

Tobiz wrote: »

Do I need to L2P?
Does L2P spell out Staff'nCloth?

You said "I" but who you are? PRO-payer? I'm not sure. Does it intended? I dunno, ask your parents
...
Class or spec doesn't matter, but player does, think about that.

I am not a pro player. I am very casual. My mom does play but she is none the wiser so no use asking her. Im well aware it could be a L2P problem. But I am hard pressed in finding material to study. Game mechanics forum on Tamriel foundry is good but melee stamina builds there are abandoned apart from tank builds.
Do you have resources worth mentioning about game mechanics and stamina builds in perticular Id be very greatful.

Tobiz · June 2014

Today as I played first time since patch I find Grahtwood much easier. Any stealth nerf to mobs or buffs to melee we should know about?

SilverWF · June 2014

stamina spells already costs lesser than magicka. noobs

GaldorP · June 2014

As a VR12 DK the best *sustained* dps I could do with a Stamina/Medium Armor/increased Weapon Damage build on a single target is around 650 dps (without Standard or active use of any ultimate).

(*Sustained* means with constant use of Stamina potions for about 40 seconds then I can't keep it up anymore.)

That's in an ideal situation with Hunding's Rage set, legendary VR12 Bow with Precise trait and enchant that decreases target's armor by 600, Flawless Dawnbreaker slotted, 188 Weapon Damage in stats, Warrior Mundus Stone, from max range, without any interruptions nor having to dodge or block, Molten Armaments crit bonus in the first 6 seconds. I tested this on the bosses outside of Seeker's Archive (they have a bit more than 50k Health).

When I tried to combine Weapon attacks with class skills that have DoTs like Searing Strike, Engulfing Flames, Burning Talons that actually *lowered* my dps because I don't have the Spell Crit nor Spell Damage to make these DoTs very efficient and I loose time while using them where I could have attacked with the bow.

With any other Stamina weapon I tried, my sustained dps was *much* lower!

Now, as you know, most groups won't invite anyone with less than 700 dps to a trial, so...
I guess as a DK my only options for trials currently are Tank and Fire Staff Dps (both in Light Armor, of course).

Here's how I think the Stamina vs. Magicka weapon skill lines and Light vs. Medium/Heavy Armor imbalances could be fixed:

- Increase the Weapon Damage soft cap (in character stats) to around 220
- Increase the Armor soft cap for player characters to about 3000 (and change the mitigation formula so an Armor value of 3000 has the same mitigation effect a value at the previous soft cap had before)
- Increase the Armor values on Medium Armor pieces and greatly increase the Armor values on Heavy Armor pieces
- Make all active skills from the Armor skill lines only usable when at least 5 pieces of the corresponding type are worn
(that means, for example, that Immovable and its morphs could only be used by characters wearing at least 5 pieces of Heavy Armor)

- Nerf the Destruction Staff skills (especially Impulse)
- Reduce the cost of most Stamina-based Weapon skills and slightly increase the damage they do

- Lower the difficulty on some of the Trial bosses

Hypertionb14_ESO · June 2014

Steel Tornado And Bombard are still some of the best damage abilitys in the game.

Steel Tornado for its ability to AOE for over 700dmg per target, Basically acting like a AOE execute with HUGE range, making killing soft weaker targets really fast.

Bombard for its Immobilize which lasts longer than it takes to charge a heavy attack to full with bow and the long snare after. you can Immobilize Lock large groups of enemys with this skill..

the rest are pretty much crap tho...

Iseldiera · June 2014

Maybe stam builds should be given a skill something along the lines of "mind over body" which would allow them to use mana to dodge/interrupt.. I have not played a stam character but as an outsider I would say this is the biggest unfair requirement for the stam build dps'ers.

Evergnar · June 2014

The more I play this game and look at stamina & stamina builds the more I believe this was intentional. Why the devs would do this, I have no idea.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

The game isn't going to die because of poor Stamina-based abilities vs Magicka-based abilities. But I agree 100% that they need to balance it so that those who want to run with Medium Armor and Bow/Dual Wield/2H have that option without being excluded from grouping or feeling sub par.

it wont be the total loss but it is having a big part in peoples decision to un sub on the whole. there are several other things pushing people over the edge to quit but this is a big one.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

I have solved the stamina balance issue!

it does not scale like light armor. not even close you can actually break the soft cap on magica with reduction gear . there is a whole video series called ESO unraveled this is one of the issues.

Shaun98ca2 · June 2014

Well strangely the issue mostly shows up in Veteran Rank. 1-50 I oddly find my Stamina build BETTER than my Magicka build.

I do realize that impulse is incredibly Over Powered as I have watch a many run into stupid situations blindly coming out without a scratch due to impulse.

I have felt im OK with Magicka producing better DPS than a Stamina build as long as they cant Maintain it for every long. Problem is they can. I would prefer they can ONLY maintain it for about 75% of a say a Trolls Health so that they have to then rely on crappy Light/Heavy Attacks till they can get back more Magicka to attempt to finish off said Troll.

The way it is CURRETNLY working though is MOST the Magicka builds are set up to burn through Magicka producing the Highest DPS possible typically coming out with the WIN and still Magicka remaining.

If a fight is known to make a Caster run out of Magicka the user can then either pop potions like ***-tacs or use a Restro Staff Heavy Attack occasionally to maintain Magicka will only seeing a slight decrease in DPS.

GaldorP · June 2014

Bombard is nice to farm Welwas in Craglorn or to hunt Undead and Deadra in Public dungeons when combined it with Evil Hunter.

But then again these monsters are very easy to dodge/avoid (in the case of Welwas) or will still hit you with ranged attacks (almost all monsters have at least one ranged attack skill in VR zones) so you might as well take the Acid Spray morph for more damage (which still snares targets for 5 seconds)

In PvP Bombard it's hard to hit other players with it as there seems to be a delay and it is fired from the position where you were standing like 1 second ago but the server already checks for the current position of enemy players so it's very hard to hit other players especially when they're running away from you or are standing right next to you (they have to stay in the cone-shaped AoE zone for about 1 second or you have to anticipate where they will be in about 1 second). When firing into a group of enemy players I almost never saw Bombard land on anyone. Not sure if Retreating Maneuver or some other skill grants immunity to it or if they just purged it that fast.

Xupacabra · June 2014

Rammanjeff wrote: »

Stamina builds need to be address immediately or else this game will CONTINUE TO die a slow death.

Fixed that for you!

And for me, aperantly my build based on stamina and my werewolf skill line are bad choices, i remember devs say at begining, "you can choose whatever you want to be in this game..." something like that.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

Paladin_echo1 wrote: »

I think that they need to fix this so it is not called PVE content. PVE forum is misleading. Stamina absolutely sucks at the moment. I am sad because I used it for a lot of my time playing the game til I found out about magic. I hope it improves very soon though. If they fixed this, I think there would be a lot of satisfied souls appearing more quickly since it is all across the board.

Personaly i think if they just acknowledged it in a dev response saying they know and are working for a fix. It would mitigate a lot of sub losses.

Shaun98ca2 · June 2014

Another issue in the game is....NO monsters are really MEANT to combat Magicka users.

Never once have I seen a Magicka user Stunned by a monster whether ranged or in Melee range.

My Melee has been blocked using Heavy Attacks but never has my Ranged character been Stunned for spamming a heavy attack.

Shaun98ca2 · June 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Paladin_echo1 wrote: »

I think that they need to fix this so it is not called PVE content. PVE forum is misleading. Stamina absolutely sucks at the moment. I am sad because I used it for a lot of my time playing the game til I found out about magic. I hope it improves very soon though. If they fixed this, I think there would be a lot of satisfied souls appearing more quickly since it is all across the board.

Personaly i think if they just acknowledged it in a dev response saying they know and are working for a fix. It would mitigate a lot of sub losses.

What if we aren't interpreting the issue correctly?? So they tell us "whats wrong" HOW they are going to fix said issue but it doesn't seem to correspond with what the community thinks.

$infraction2008b16_ESO$ · June 2014

Arora wrote: »

find a group of friends and run with them, instead of random parties then and you wont have this problem, they are already aware and addressing the problem it takes time to recode, why are you people so impatient, grind out a second character you will eventually anyways. Or start grinding out secondary weapons and Armour.

Explain how exactly is "finding friends" supposed to fix broken resource management and unbalanced abilities which lean toward magicka builds being the go-to for any sort of viable content?

Instead of accusing the OP of actually being anti-social actually read the post...

Shaun98ca2 · June 2014

So Lets look at what ZOS has been doing. We state there is an issue with Magicka versus Stamina.

Templar Magicka Management Nerfted in to oblivion to beyond useless cant maintain high levels of DPS without a Restro Staff.

So look a Templar with say ANY other weapon and compare it then to say ANY Stamina build on the Templar. Something strange happens....to me it LOOKS like a balance.

Now lets look at the most broken class in the game the NightBlade. THEIR Magicka Management has been DESTROYED its utterly useless now they feel like a Templar as their Magicka Management is USELESS. So again now it LOOKS like a balance.

DragonKnights hows their Magicka Management looking?

So now I guess its a WAIT and SEE what happens to Sorcerers, and Restro Staffs.

So again MY view of the correct balance.

Magicka High Damage Low Sustainment
Stamina Good Damage High Sustainment

Magicka runs out of Resource BAD Damage
Stamina runs out of Resource GOOD Damage Sustainment

Balance its all about Managing your Resources and LESS about Damage Race.

Arsenic_Touch · June 2014

Iseldiera wrote: »

Maybe stam builds should be given a skill something along the lines of "mind over body" which would allow them to use mana to dodge/interrupt.. I have not played a stam character but as an outsider I would say this is the biggest unfair requirement for the stam build dps'ers.

I really like this idea, but it would only address half of the issue. Even if you don't dodge/interrupt, stamina based skills perform worse than magicka based skills. There are plenty of ways to restore magicka, but barely any ways to restore stamina outside of the slow regen. They need to balance weapon skills and give stamina better resource management.

Aoifesan · June 2014

Loco_Mofo wrote: »

UnyieldingFlame wrote: »

Arora wrote: »

find a group of friends and run with them, instead of random parties then and you wont have this problem, they are already aware and addressing the problem it takes time to recode, why are you people so impatient, grind out a second character you will eventually anyways. Or start grinding out secondary weapons and Armour.

Sadly this above poster is a example of the elitist attitude that have stain this game badly for newcomers and other people who like to play the game differently. Also was playing with friends in a trials and had no death till the last boss in AA where the dps was not high enough and we wipe because melee users have severely low dps compare to magicka users. Was not re invited because I am using a stamina build.

When I am only dishing out 600-800 dps with melee and a magic user is doing 1200 dps 2x more then me then there is a problem with the lack of balance in this game. Plus when did Zenimax said they are addressing this issue? Three months later when the game is free to play? Don't act like you know about coding since making balance changes isn't quite difficult as you might suspect compare to scripting or 3D modeling.

Couldn't agree more with this post.

There are no real workarounds to this issue. You either gimp yourself using a stamina build or you follow this ridiculous meta and chuck on light armor and a staff.

This is my number 1 problem with the game. It really should be priority over everything else IMO, it's the reason I unsubbed and I'm sure I'm not alone.

That's my number Three reason. My number two reason is bugged Nightblade abilities STILL not working after claims of fix. My number one reason, is being forced to play in the kiddie pool with only 6 abilities on two bars.

Almost every other MMO I have played has allowed hotkeys from 1 - 10 on 1-10 bars all accessed via the shift key.

The number of times I've died in this game due to amnesiac interface design flaws, uncountable?

Paladin_echo1 · June 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

I have solved the stamina balance issue!

Indeed you have, for the sorcerer. Keep the Stamina users DOWN! Let them think they are going to win so you can kill them and watch them lose in PVE and PVP. Now that is balance right?

Show me how practical stamina is in the area of DPS vs a magic user and we can start this again.

Hope this is not another magic user trying to say stamina is good and balanced when it doesn't even effect the Class Ultimates. (Also lets not forget a Two Handed mace that goes through a whopping 80 armor at V12.)

SilverWF · June 2014

I will just leave it here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k9lfjehN94

Shaun98ca2 · June 2014

^^^^^^^^^^^
Awesome

Tolio · June 2014

I agree that the usefulness of stamina builds is... lacking. Sadly all class skills use magic as well, if the class skills would be more of a mixture I'm sure we'd see more stamina builds. DKs for example should be predestined for staminas builds with dragon blood...

dragnier · June 2014

SilverWF wrote: »

I will just leave it here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k9lfjehN94

Ok, first off, in the beginning portion of that is not a stamina build despite being heavy on stamina resource. You are using ONE stam skill in the beginning of the video.

Second, the "boss fight" portion is not a boss but a delve 3-tier elite. Lets see a video of the same setup against a dungeon or trials boss with a damage meter running.

Later in the video when you get to AoE, you use more stamina and do a great job. But a Magicka build would still be faster due to higher damage.

The key thing you didn't have running was a damage meter like Recount or Foundry Tactical Combat. You also didn't show a comparative video of a Magicka build doing the same things.

When you show both in the same video using a damage meter and the results read equal to higher damage using stamina instead of magicak including a dungeon or trials boss, I'll leave the subject alone.

Ragekniv · June 2014

Yeah, I think you missed the memo...

This game is already dying a slow death!

Look at your friend list and guilds, see how active they are anymore!

wolfe26ub17_ESO · June 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Let me reverse the argument.

Magicka builds SUCK theres NO way to maintain the High Level of DPS once OOM the DPS plummets through the floor.

Most our abilities are susceptible to being stunned including our Heavy Attacks which we have to rely on to get back our Magicka.

We get NO kind of Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break compared to that of Stamina build PLUS they get to SPAM Heavy Attacks endlessly producing more DPS than us once we OOM.

Any of our good damage abilities are overly blockable making us waste even more mana and instant abilities are even capable of being reflected back to us or simply nullified all together (Negate Magic).

Stamina builds get Magicka abilities that require NO points in Magicka to be good
increasing their survivability and damage, when our addition pool is Stamina which is required to simply stay alive and never enough of and provide no healing or protection.

So hard facts with unbiased comparison is better than simply complaining.

I might have missed something in my translation of Trollese but let me try to respond:

Light armor - Decrease spell cost per piece
- increase magic regen per piece
- increase spell resist per piece
- 5 or more pieces +10 spell crits
- ignore 6% of enemy spell resist per piece

Warlock set of light armor 3 pieces - once per minute when you drop below 33% max magic gain 33% of your max magic back
Magika furnice light armor set 5 pieces - when hit by melee recover 10% of max magic 5 second cool down +11 magic recovery

Destro staff - elemental drain - reduce targets resist to elements 40% for 18 seconds. restore 250 magic when hitting target with elements

Plus add class skills that do same.
by my calculations a light armor staff wielder never goes oom and since oom was the basis of your whole arguement

Your Arguement is Invalid

WebBull · June 2014

Since sprint, block and dodge drain stamina, put in a skill (Fighter's Guild?) that would allow stamina builds to convert magika into stamina (at a conversion that's not overpowered).

Another idea is add another category to Stamina, Health, and Magika and call it Endurance. Sprint, block and dodge would come out of the endurance pool leaving stamina builds on par with magika builds.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

tdilloncub18_ESO wrote: »

Since sprint, block and dodge drain stamina, put in a skill (Fighter's Guild?) that would allow stamina builds to convert magika into stamina (at a conversion that's not overpowered).

Another idea is add another category to Stamina, Health, and Magika and call it Endurance. Sprint, block and dodge would come out of the endurance pool leaving stamina builds on par with magika builds.

this is why the ES pre oblivion class and AP system was superior to this

Shaun98ca2 · June 2014

wolfe26ub17_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Let me reverse the argument.

Magicka builds SUCK theres NO way to maintain the High Level of DPS once OOM the DPS plummets through the floor.

Most our abilities are susceptible to being stunned including our Heavy Attacks which we have to rely on to get back our Magicka.

We get NO kind of Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break compared to that of Stamina build PLUS they get to SPAM Heavy Attacks endlessly producing more DPS than us once we OOM.

Any of our good damage abilities are overly blockable making us waste even more mana and instant abilities are even capable of being reflected back to us or simply nullified all together (Negate Magic).

Stamina builds get Magicka abilities that require NO points in Magicka to be good
increasing their survivability and damage, when our addition pool is Stamina which is required to simply stay alive and never enough of and provide no healing or protection.

So hard facts with unbiased comparison is better than simply complaining.

I might have missed something in my translation of Trollese but let me try to respond:

Light armor - Decrease spell cost per piece
- increase magic regen per piece
- increase spell resist per piece
- 5 or more pieces +10 spell crits
- ignore 6% of enemy spell resist per piece

Warlock set of light armor 3 pieces - once per minute when you drop below 33% max magic gain 33% of your max magic back
Magika furnice light armor set 5 pieces - when hit by melee recover 10% of max magic 5 second cool down +11 magic recovery

Destro staff - elemental drain - reduce targets resist to elements 40% for 18 seconds. restore 250 magic when hitting target with elements

Plus add class skills that do same.
by my calculations a light armor staff wielder never goes oom and since oom was the basis of your whole arguement

Your Arguement is Invalid

The argument was never meant to be real just showcase you can complain about anything. Funny thing though is nobody seems to pay any actual attention to the argument itself.

I made an attempt to find every flaw I could with Magicka builds and the only responses I got was the benefits of Magicka not direct challenges to any statement made.

Magicka spells can be reflected or negated ESPECIALLY the instacast ones. Though I found only 1 class so far that can do that but its something a person COULD complain about.

SilverWF · June 2014

dragnier wrote: »

Ok, first off, in the beginning portion of that is not a stamina build despite being heavy on stamina resource. You are using ONE stam skill in the beginning of the video.

Second, the "boss fight" portion is not a boss but a delve 3-tier elite. Lets see a video of the same setup against a dungeon or trials boss with a damage meter running.

Later in the video when you get to AoE, you use more stamina and do a great job. But a Magicka build would still be faster due to higher damage.

The key thing you didn't have running was a damage meter like Recount or Foundry Tactical Combat. You also didn't show a comparative video of a Magicka build doing the same things.

When you show both in the same video using a damage meter and the results read equal to higher damage using stamina instead of magicak including a dungeon or trials boss, I'll leave the subject alone.

First, I don't need another stamina skills and since duals damage and attacks damage based on stamina - yes, this is stamina build

Second, I can't count another melees who just annihilated by this bosses - come here and you'll see as nearly every solo-try ended with PLUS on the floor

Who said magicka and stamina users must be the same? Your dreams? This ois how game designed! Deal with that!