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Stamina builds need to be address immediately or else this game will die a slow death.
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Sleepydan✭✭✭UnyieldingFlame wrote: »Here is what I don't get. By stamina build, you mean you want to be a physically focused character right? Melee or bow?
Of your 5 skill slots I am willing to bet you have 2-3 utility abilities, 1-2 magicka dumps and 1-2 stamina dumps. I bet you do a fair amount of light +heavy attacks.
Is your beef that there are more magicka based utility abilities? Do you want to just have 5 stamina dumps?
Maybe stamina light/heavy attacks aren't light or heavy enough?
I don't get what you want. I'm pretty sure you can be the type of character you want to be. It's like your complaining about...say...you wanted to be a healer, and you can, but there are too many hots and not enough bubbles, it's game breaking!!!!1!!
I'm sorry your predefined notions of what you wanted don't match up with reality. Hey, maybe stamina builds need a boost. I'm not against you on that point. But you can totally be any classic fantasy archetype, rogue+mage+fighter+cleric, and a fair amount of hybrids and otherwise.
Being who you want to be isn't the same promise as your *** pile of un-synergistic abilities will be effective.
Why people don't read is beyond my understanding of how to deal with incompetent dolt like these on the forums. Ha funny how you assume I use un-synergy abilities that are not effective. However you are indefinitely wrong on that one, I'm am using the best melee sorcerer build and still can't keep up with mage type builds on the dps meter.
Only because I run out of stamina too quickly period.
So to recap, you don't actually have a problem with being who you want to be. Your problem is who you want to be is losing an arbitrary pissing contest with what someone else wants to be. Apparently because you run out of stamina too quickly, period.
Please refer to my second to last "paragraph."
Oh, and grats btw on that best possible build. I'm sure it's as subjective as it is mysterious.0 -
ferzalrwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭So to recap, you don't actually have a problem with being who you want to be. Your problem is who you want to be is losing an arbitrary pissing contest with what someone else wants to be. Apparently because you run out of stamina too quickly, period.
That "arbitrary pissing contest" you speak off turns into a bit more of a contest in Cyrodiil. And when there's a leaderboard for trials with winning teams that no stamina build will ever be a part of then it starts to matter more and more.1 -
Just goes beyond me how some ppl particularly Shaun in this case just cannot grasp the issue with the stamina vs magicka builds.
ALL classes can equip a staff or melee weapon and get "free" light attacks and Heavy attacks. Shaun, you somehow seem to think these attacks are exclusive to stamina builds? Magicka focused builds generally equip a staff since the dmg (of the "free" light,heavy attacks)scale with their magicka pool, with stamina vice versa.
So please forget abt the light and Heavy attacks will you pls?
Magicka builds just like stamina builds Always get an amount of abt 1200 of the other resource at max lvl. For a magicka build this is a resource they do not need at all for dmg output, hence they can use it exclusively for Dodge/block/sprint etc.
Stamina builds obviously get an equal amount of magicka which ofc means they can use some magicka dmg skills, but since they will be having a small magicka pool you can prolly figure out the dmg output will scale of a small magicka pool.
And here is the kicker mate, the stamina pool, beeing larger, meaning we will wanna get some stamina based dmg skills in here for the bigger scale, is used for Dodge/block/sneak/sprint, effectively dipping into the pool we want for our dmg output.
Now it wont get any clearer than this Shaun, so stop pretending and trying to spread confusion on a subject that is as clear as the sun is Bright.
Edited by james_vestbergb16_ESO on June 8, 2014 12:21PM0 -
dragnier✭✭✭james_vestbergb16_ESO wrote: »ALL classes can equip a staff or melee weapon and get "free" light attacks and Heavy attacks. Shaun, you somehow seem to think these attacks are exclusive to stamina builds? Magicka focused builds generally equip a staff since the dmg (of the "free" light,heavy attacks)scale with their magicka pool, with stamina vice versa.
Those light/heavy staff attack do not scale with magicka, they scale with the staff weapon damage and stamina.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=EiUATvbFDUQ
The abilities tied to staff scale based on weapon damage and magicka, though.0 -
rotiferuk✭✭✭IMHO stamina does not require "fixing". Someone in heavy armour with heavy weapons will use more stamina than someone wearing light armour and using staves.Edited by rotiferuk on June 8, 2014 12:45PMEU Server.1 -
dragnier✭✭✭IMHO stamina does not require "fixing". Someone in heavy armour with heavy weapons will use more stamina than someone wearing a light armour and using staves.
And yet, heavy armor has the same affect on stamina as light... None.0 -
rotiferuk✭✭✭I don't understand why they put all the cc breaks on stamina-only in the first place. Seems like nobody thought that out.
How about cc breaks, rolls, etc take equal amounts of stamina and magicka?
Makes far more sense. Might make stamina builds more viable.
I think it's a fast solution, though the code-monkeys might disagree...
Why would PHYSICAL activities draw from ones mana pool? Are you going to start arguing magical abilities should draw from ones stamina pool?. If someone decides to wear heavy armour and brandish heavy weapons they will get tired rather quickly. Have you seen a medieval suit of armour?
http://echomon.co.uk/medieval-armor-and-weapons-pictures/
I very much doubt one would be doing much "dodge rolling" in it.EU Server.0 -
stungateb14_ESO✭✭✭The problem is that has been stated since closed beta stamina uses a fixed % all the time no matter if youre at 1900 stamina of below 500 to break cc, block, roll.
So if you're melee stamina build you'll be resource limited while in combat but as a magicka build you wont be there in lies the discrepancy.0 -
rotiferuk✭✭✭
In game weapon use (non staff) incurs a stamina cost, which is how it should be. The ability to sustain physical effort relies on stamina. Also, IMHO, there should be (I thought there already was) a stamina penalty (which comes into play when sneaking, running dodging, etc) based on the weight of armour worn. Obviously it is easier to run when wearing cloth and carrying a stave than it is when wearing heavy armour and carrying a sword and shield.Edited by rotiferuk on June 8, 2014 1:10PMEU Server.0 -
dragnier✭✭✭The quick and easy fix is that ever so unpopular third resource bar just for dodge/run/stealth and keep block on stamina because it is part of tanking/one-hand and shield.
Lore and past game wise, people argue against it.
The reality is that it would help fix stam based builds somewhat.
Sure, there are other ways to fix this. However, none of them are as unobtrusive except perhaps a toggle switch allowing the player to decide which resource is used for it. (Which would also get people complaining for the same lore based reasons.)
Here's another bright idea:
Blocking melee costs stam but blocking spells costs magicka along with that third resource bar for dodge/run/stealth.
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Reykice✭✭✭✭✭Thing is... a stamina build will NEVER do the same dps as a magic build, here is why:
Most of the builds you see DK`s/Sorcs rely on other people casting debuffs or healing them when they use life for magicka... its mostly a group affair. Without that they would be out of magicka in 10 seconds...
They are also using potions, the highest DPS builds pop a potion every 30s mandatory AND most even considered potion CD gear but that would make costs unbearable.
As a stamina based build your biggest sustained dps comes from light/heavy attacks... you use NO resources so you can use stamina/magicka as you wish most of the time. If your heavy/light attacks would do as much dps as the magicka burst builds then it would unbalance the game completely... everyone would be a melee user... EVERYONE.
I know its not easy to hear but as far as dps goes, a magicka build that used potions on cooldown and is using Equilibrium to keep spamming a spell with a 420 magicka cost every 1 second will never be equaled by melee using heavy attacks and using no resource. Never. Ever.
As for active melee skills... right now melee has no reliable way to get stamina back... so you would be out of stamina after 10 seconds just like a magicka build with no way to get magicka back....
Its a long post but i hope it explains it.
EDIT: I`ll also add that the highest numbers you see are only reproduced by a few people, the best ones who never miss one beat out of a 2-4 minute fight with about 100-300 rotations... few people can actually pull that off and not make a mistake.Edited by Reykice on June 8, 2014 1:23PM2 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think it's a bad design. Roughly half our skill lines shares a cost pool with crucial abilities like block or cc-break.
Why? There is no actual argument or logic behind it.
Why even have all these weapon skill lines, if we can't make competitive builds around them?
Edit: There is no solution in nerfing magicka regain. No one likes standing around doing nothing or heavy attacking. This game can't take more changes that actively removes the fun from battle.Edited by eliisra on June 8, 2014 1:30PM0 -
kaosodin✭✭✭✭Rammanjeff wrote: »Stamina builds need to be address immediately or else this game will CONTINUE TO die a slow death.
Fixed that for you!
Your not funny dude, and should stop posting useless statements
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Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭stungateb14_ESO wrote: »The problem is that has been stated since closed beta stamina uses a fixed % all the time no matter if youre at 1900 stamina of below 500 to break cc, block, roll.
So if you're melee stamina build you'll be resource limited while in combat but as a magicka build you wont be there in lies the discrepancy.
ZOS changed this due to community feedback. Everybody stated it made no sense and devalued Stamina builds.
So really lets just say its NOT a fix % any more unless somebody has a video stating otherwise.
Actually Heavy Armor allows more Blocking due to a 20% cost reduction to Blocking values.1 -
dragnier✭✭✭alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »Thing is... a stamina build will NEVER do the same dps as a magic build, here is why:
Most of the builds you see DK`s/Sorcs rely on other people casting debuffs or healing them when they use life for magicka... its mostly a group affair. Without that they would be out of magicka in 10 seconds...
They are also using potions, the highest DPS builds pop a potion every 30s mandatory AND most even considered potion CD gear but that would make costs unbearable.
As a stamina based build your biggest sustained dps comes from light/heavy attacks... you use NO resources so you can use stamina/magicka as you wish most of the time. If your heavy/light attacks would do as much dps as the magicka burst builds then it would unbalance the game completely... everyone would be a melee user... EVERYONE.
I know its not easy to hear but as far as dps goes, a magicka build that used potions on cooldown and is using Equilibrium to keep spamming a spell with a 420 magicka cost every 1 second will never be equaled by melee using heavy attacks and using no resource. Never. Ever.
As for active melee skills... right now melee has no reliable way to get stamina back... so you would be out of stamina after 10 seconds just like a magicka build with no way to get magicka back....
Its a long post but i hope it explains it.
EDIT: I`ll also add that the highest numbers you see are only reproduced by a few people, the best ones who never miss one beat out of a 2-4 minute fight with about 100-300 rotations... few people can actually pull that off and not make a mistake.
If things like Spirit Siphon, Elemental Drain, and Resto Heavy Attacks (just examples) returned stamina as well as magicka like the NB Siphoning Attacks toggle did, then maybe Stamina builds would have more of a chance.
BTW, I've seen Stam builds pop just as many pots that do the same thing for them as Magicka users do.
There are mirror alchemy potions for them. Magicka one has spell dmg and crit as well as the magicka return and the Stamina one has weapon dmg and crit in addtion to the stamina return.
If the damage done by Stamina builds and Magicka builds was all roughly equal when properly setup for damage, then anyone could play whatever they liked. (Not everyone would be Stamina as you say)
However, this is currently not the case as Stamina builds are sub-par dps even when they are built correctly because of imbalance in the game mechanics.
One such mechanic is passives related to light and medium armor.
The very first passive for Light Armor reduces spell costs by 1/2/3% per piece of light armor worn versus the first passive in Medium Armor increasing Weapon Crit by 1/2/3% per piece of medium armor worn.
However, Light Armor also gets a crit passive later (albeit for a five piece set) but nowhere does Medium Armor get any cost reduction to any sort of attacks. Those reductions are all handled in the weapon passives themselves and are at most 10% reduction versus the 21% max reduction from a full 7/7 light armor on spells.Edited by dragnier on June 8, 2014 1:44PM0 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »Thing is... a stamina build will NEVER do the same dps as a magic build, here is why:
Most of the builds you see DK`s/Sorcs rely on other people casting debuffs or healing them when they use life for magicka... its mostly a group affair. Without that they would be out of magicka in 10 seconds...
They are also using potions, the highest DPS builds pop a potion every 30s mandatory AND most even considered potion CD gear but that would make costs unbearable.
As a stamina based build your biggest sustained dps comes from light/heavy attacks... you use NO resources so you can use stamina/magicka as you wish most of the time. If your heavy/light attacks would do as much dps as the magicka burst builds then it would unbalance the game completely... everyone would be a melee user... EVERYONE.
I know its not easy to hear but as far as dps goes, a magicka build that used potions on cooldown and is using Equilibrium to keep spamming a spell with a 420 magicka cost every 1 second will never be equaled by melee using heavy attacks and using no resource. Never. Ever.
As for active melee skills... right now melee has no reliable way to get stamina back... so you would be out of stamina after 10 seconds just like a magicka build with no way to get magicka back....
Its a long post but i hope it explains it.
EDIT: I`ll also add that the highest numbers you see are only reproduced by a few people, the best ones who never miss one beat out of a 2-4 minute fight with about 100-300 rotations... few people can actually pull that off and not make a mistake.
If things like Spirit Siphon, Elemental Drain, and Resto Heavy Attacks (just examples) returned stamina as well as magicka like the NB Siphoning Attacks toggle did, then maybe Stamina builds would have more of a chance.
BTW, I've seen Stam builds pop just as many pots that do the same thing for them as Magicka users do.
There are mirror alchemy potions for them. Magicka one has spell dmg and crit as well as the magicka return and the Stamina one has weapon dmg and crit in addtion to the stamina return.
If the damage done by Stamina builds and Magicka builds was all roughly equal when properly setup for damage, then anyone could play whatever they liked. (Not everyone would be Stamina as you say)
However, this is currently not the case as Stamina builds are sub-par dps even when they are built correctly because of imbalance in the game mechanics.
But again the "sub-par" DPS again comes from the fact of a few important things creating a balance. When Magicka and Stamina builds are booth our of their respective resources Stamina can maintain a MUCH higher level of DPS.
Stamina builds have increased survivability (based on info given back in beta devs changed the % based Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break to fixed costs)
Stamina builds gain more from their alternative resource without an points into the pool than Magicka.1 -
I don't understand why they put all the cc breaks on stamina-only in the first place. Seems like nobody thought that out.
How about cc breaks, rolls, etc take equal amounts of stamina and magicka?
Makes far more sense. Might make stamina builds more viable.
I think it's a fast solution, though the code-monkeys might disagree...
Why would PHYSICAL activities draw from ones mana pool? Are you going to start arguing magical abilities should draw from ones stamina pool?. If someone decides to wear heavy armour and brandish heavy weapons they will get tired rather quickly. Have you seen a medieval suit of armour?
http://echomon.co.uk/medieval-armor-and-weapons-pictures/
I very much doubt one would be doing much "dodge rolling" in it.
AND why would cloth give you any kind of armor rating whatsoever? and how come u can block a sword attack with a staff?
It's a game, you cant try to implement too much realism where there is dragons and magicka etc.
What you do need however is balance amongst all these "unrealistic" things.0 -
Reykice✭✭✭✭✭alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »Thing is... a stamina build will NEVER do the same dps as a magic build, here is why:
Most of the builds you see DK`s/Sorcs rely on other people casting debuffs or healing them when they use life for magicka... its mostly a group affair. Without that they would be out of magicka in 10 seconds...
They are also using potions, the highest DPS builds pop a potion every 30s mandatory AND most even considered potion CD gear but that would make costs unbearable.
As a stamina based build your biggest sustained dps comes from light/heavy attacks... you use NO resources so you can use stamina/magicka as you wish most of the time. If your heavy/light attacks would do as much dps as the magicka burst builds then it would unbalance the game completely... everyone would be a melee user... EVERYONE.
I know its not easy to hear but as far as dps goes, a magicka build that used potions on cooldown and is using Equilibrium to keep spamming a spell with a 420 magicka cost every 1 second will never be equaled by melee using heavy attacks and using no resource. Never. Ever.
As for active melee skills... right now melee has no reliable way to get stamina back... so you would be out of stamina after 10 seconds just like a magicka build with no way to get magicka back....
Its a long post but i hope it explains it.
EDIT: I`ll also add that the highest numbers you see are only reproduced by a few people, the best ones who never miss one beat out of a 2-4 minute fight with about 100-300 rotations... few people can actually pull that off and not make a mistake.
The very first passive for Light Armor reduces spell costs by 1/2/3% per piece of light armor worn versus the first passive in Medium Armor increasing Weapon Crit by 1/2/3% per piece of medium armor worn.
However, Light Armor also gets a crit passive later (albeit for a five piece set) but nowhere does Medium Armor get any cost reduction to any sort of attacks. Those reductions are all handled in the weapon passives themselves and are at most 10% reduction versus the 21% max reduction from a full 7/7 light armor on spells.
The weapon reduction is 20%... just like the light armor 7/7 bonus, every weapon has it... so you can wear Heavy Armor and still get the reduction.
The Crit for Spell users however uses a skill slot... don`t forget that... Mage Light wastes one of your 5 skill slots.
Its 21% reduction in light armor vs 20% reduction in medium + weapon and 20% crit in light armor but you lose a skill slow vs 21% crit in medium armor.
Its also 10% crit for light armor vs 10% haste for medium, clearly showing that the damage for physical damage builds is designed to come from light/heavy attacks... I`ll also add that for any class with no crit bonus so only a 50% crit bonus, 10% Haste is double the DPS 10% crit adds....
Its not the armor... its the skills themselves, staff skill don`t scale that well either that`s why most magic builds mainly use class skills.... because the staff is also a weapon and as a weapon it has crappy scaling just like Two Handers or Bows or etc...0 -
dragnier✭✭✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »But again the "sub-par" DPS again comes from the fact of a few important things creating a balance. When Magicka and Stamina builds are booth our of their respective resources Stamina can maintain a MUCH higher level of DPS.
Stamina builds have increased survivability (based on info given back in beta devs changed the % based Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break to fixed costs)
Stamina builds gain more from their alternative resource without an points into the pool than Magicka.
This depends on the build. Many casters take at least one stamina skill, such as Silver Bolts, simply to have a dump to put their stamina in for extra dps. And they get light and heavy attacks too, even though they don't scale with the magicka pool.
A Stamina user can do the same thing as you say, by having at least one magicka skill on their bar to boost their dps by dumping all their magicka into it from time to time.
Stamina builds do not necessarily have inherently increased survivability unless you are talking about the extra armor involved. In the case of Medium Armor, that is negligible.
You are arguing that Stamina based build have INHERENT better survivability and that just isn't true when you compare all the available utility and the power of veteran level monsters. Stamina builds get one shot by the same stuff Magicka builds do, sometimes more so when the damage is from a magic ability.
The third boss of the Aetherian Archive Trial has an AoE that scales based on how many of here summoned adds are still up. When that thing goes off and only one add is up, it does about 2k+ damage. However, 7/7 light armor + NB Invis skill to proc their Passive called Shadow Barrier runs their spell resist up to around 2600-2700. That costs magicka. (Bonus is 1750 sr and armor)
And there is even another skill that could be used by anyone, and is, called Annulment which is learned from the Light Armor skill line itself. This one skill automatically halves the damage of any spell dmg as long as the shield holds, and a morph of it lowers the damage even more per piece of light armor worn. Again, a single magicka cost skill.
A Stamina build using Immovable gets about half the bonus of that but if combined with Circle of Protection actually gets more because the attack comes from an undead enemy. Both of those cost Stamina. (Combined bonus is 1850 sr and armor) And that doesn't take into account that Medium Armor lacks any bonus to spell resist, unlike both Light and Heavy, so even with a slightly larger bonus, it may not be enough to survive.
So, a Stamina based person has to use 2 high cost skills to achieve what a Magicka user does with One skill in regards to survivability.
Of course, as everyone with half a brain can see, even the stamina user can get the light armor skill in question and use it with their magicka... just like a magicka user can get and use Circle of Protection.
The key here is that some of the imbalance was put in on purpose to keep the armor types different, but they need to be tweaked to make them more equal yet remain different.
It is a difficult task, but it must be handled somehow.0 -
dragnier✭✭✭alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »Thing is... a stamina build will NEVER do the same dps as a magic build, here is why:
Most of the builds you see DK`s/Sorcs rely on other people casting debuffs or healing them when they use life for magicka... its mostly a group affair. Without that they would be out of magicka in 10 seconds...
They are also using potions, the highest DPS builds pop a potion every 30s mandatory AND most even considered potion CD gear but that would make costs unbearable.
As a stamina based build your biggest sustained dps comes from light/heavy attacks... you use NO resources so you can use stamina/magicka as you wish most of the time. If your heavy/light attacks would do as much dps as the magicka burst builds then it would unbalance the game completely... everyone would be a melee user... EVERYONE.
I know its not easy to hear but as far as dps goes, a magicka build that used potions on cooldown and is using Equilibrium to keep spamming a spell with a 420 magicka cost every 1 second will never be equaled by melee using heavy attacks and using no resource. Never. Ever.
As for active melee skills... right now melee has no reliable way to get stamina back... so you would be out of stamina after 10 seconds just like a magicka build with no way to get magicka back....
Its a long post but i hope it explains it.
EDIT: I`ll also add that the highest numbers you see are only reproduced by a few people, the best ones who never miss one beat out of a 2-4 minute fight with about 100-300 rotations... few people can actually pull that off and not make a mistake.
The very first passive for Light Armor reduces spell costs by 1/2/3% per piece of light armor worn versus the first passive in Medium Armor increasing Weapon Crit by 1/2/3% per piece of medium armor worn.
However, Light Armor also gets a crit passive later (albeit for a five piece set) but nowhere does Medium Armor get any cost reduction to any sort of attacks. Those reductions are all handled in the weapon passives themselves and are at most 10% reduction versus the 21% max reduction from a full 7/7 light armor on spells.
The weapon reduction is 20%... just like the light armor 7/7 bonus, every weapon has it... so you can wear Heavy Armor and still get the reduction.
The Crit for Spell users however uses a skill slot... don`t forget that... Mage Light wastes one of your 5 skill slots.
Its 21% reduction in light armor vs 20% reduction in medium + weapon and 20% crit in light armor but you lose a skill slow vs 21% crit in medium armor.
Its also 10% crit for light armor vs 10% haste for medium, clearly showing that the damage for physical damage builds is designed to come from light/heavy attacks... I`ll also add that for any class with no crit bonus so only a 50% crit bonus, 10% Haste is double the DPS 10% crit adds....
Its not the armor... its the skills themselves, staff skill don`t scale that well either that`s why most magic builds mainly use class skills.... because the staff is also a weapon and as a weapon it has crappy scaling just like Two Handers or Bows or etc...
I stand corrected, I forgot it was a 2 point skill for 10% per. I was thinking it was 5% per point.
You are right about weapons not scaling well, too.
Haste is broken as well, it doesn't apply to Bows or any Staff.
I think a lot of the problem lies in the armor mitigation coefficients versus the ones used for spell resist.Edited by dragnier on June 8, 2014 2:07PM0 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭The increased survivability I talk about with Stamina is the increased use of Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break (was stated to be changed to a cost versus % in beta).
All Classes have a Magicka based Utility that stays Optimal regardless of points in Magicka.0 -
dragnier✭✭✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »The increased survivability I talk about with Stamina is the increased use of Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break (was stated to be changed to a cost versus % in beta).
All Classes have a Magicka based Utility that stays Optimal regardless of points in Magicka.
Yep, more Stamina means you could do those things more... but you could also kill yourself by using your stamina that way. Block, dodge, CC break and suddenly you are out of Stamina to do any damage with... oh, right! I'll just use my light/heavy attacks until I get my Stamina back and hope I don't die before that.
Same problem Magicka users have if they run out of stamina... Only Stamina builds are dependant on that Stamina for BOTH damage and all those other things while Magicka builds are not. If they run out of block/dodge/CC Break, they can just place the cannon in the enemy's face and unload hoping to kill the enemy before they die. A Stamina build can't.Edited by dragnier on June 8, 2014 2:14PM0 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »The increased survivability I talk about with Stamina is the increased use of Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break (was stated to be changed to a cost versus % in beta).
All Classes have a Magicka based Utility that stays Optimal regardless of points in Magicka.
Yep, more Stamina means you could do those things more... but you could also kill yourself by using your stamina that way. Block, dodge, CC break and suddenly you are out of Stamina to do any damage with... oh, right! I'll just use my light/heavy attacks until I get my Stamina back and hope I don't die before that.
Same problem Magicka users have if they run out of stamina... Only Stamina builds are dependant on that Stamina for BOTH damage and all those other things while Magicka builds are not. If they run out of block/dodge/CC Break, they can just place the cannon in the enemy's face and unload hoping to kill the enemy before they die. A Stamina build can't.
Except that Light/Heavy Attack is very viable damage for Stamina builds and the reduced damage is acceptable due to the increased survivability you used for Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break.
Blocking/Stunning provides the most bang for your buck as it allows Free hits or even Use of your harder to connect Stamina based abilities IE Flurry, Uppercut sometimes even AFTER a Heavy Attack Knockdown, cause they STILL have to get back up.0 -
FrauPerchta✭✭✭Far too many seem to let the game play them rather than play the game.
Adapt to the game rather than expect the game to adapt to you.0 -
Reykice✭✭✭✭✭alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »Thing is... a stamina build will NEVER do the same dps as a magic build, here is why:
Most of the builds you see DK`s/Sorcs rely on other people casting debuffs or healing them when they use life for magicka... its mostly a group affair. Without that they would be out of magicka in 10 seconds...
They are also using potions, the highest DPS builds pop a potion every 30s mandatory AND most even considered potion CD gear but that would make costs unbearable.
As a stamina based build your biggest sustained dps comes from light/heavy attacks... you use NO resources so you can use stamina/magicka as you wish most of the time. If your heavy/light attacks would do as much dps as the magicka burst builds then it would unbalance the game completely... everyone would be a melee user... EVERYONE.
I know its not easy to hear but as far as dps goes, a magicka build that used potions on cooldown and is using Equilibrium to keep spamming a spell with a 420 magicka cost every 1 second will never be equaled by melee using heavy attacks and using no resource. Never. Ever.
As for active melee skills... right now melee has no reliable way to get stamina back... so you would be out of stamina after 10 seconds just like a magicka build with no way to get magicka back....
Its a long post but i hope it explains it.
EDIT: I`ll also add that the highest numbers you see are only reproduced by a few people, the best ones who never miss one beat out of a 2-4 minute fight with about 100-300 rotations... few people can actually pull that off and not make a mistake.
The very first passive for Light Armor reduces spell costs by 1/2/3% per piece of light armor worn versus the first passive in Medium Armor increasing Weapon Crit by 1/2/3% per piece of medium armor worn.
However, Light Armor also gets a crit passive later (albeit for a five piece set) but nowhere does Medium Armor get any cost reduction to any sort of attacks. Those reductions are all handled in the weapon passives themselves and are at most 10% reduction versus the 21% max reduction from a full 7/7 light armor on spells.
The weapon reduction is 20%... just like the light armor 7/7 bonus, every weapon has it... so you can wear Heavy Armor and still get the reduction.
The Crit for Spell users however uses a skill slot... don`t forget that... Mage Light wastes one of your 5 skill slots.
Its 21% reduction in light armor vs 20% reduction in medium + weapon and 20% crit in light armor but you lose a skill slow vs 21% crit in medium armor.
Its also 10% crit for light armor vs 10% haste for medium, clearly showing that the damage for physical damage builds is designed to come from light/heavy attacks... I`ll also add that for any class with no crit bonus so only a 50% crit bonus, 10% Haste is double the DPS 10% crit adds....
Its not the armor... its the skills themselves, staff skill don`t scale that well either that`s why most magic builds mainly use class skills.... because the staff is also a weapon and as a weapon it has crappy scaling just like Two Handers or Bows or etc...
I stand corrected, I forgot it was a 2 point skill for 10% per. I was thinking it was 5% per point.
You are right about weapons not scaling well, too.
Haste is broken as well, it doesn't apply to Bows or any Staff.
I think a lot of the problem lies in the armor mitigation coefficients versus the ones used for spell resist.
Yes i totally agree on the armor mitigation... i play a light armor character and i used a spell to see if its worth stacking armor... short answer: its not. You barely get any extra mitigation... the only real mitigation is blocking and that doesn`t work all that well in a DPS build.1 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »Thing is... a stamina build will NEVER do the same dps as a magic build, here is why:
Most of the builds you see DK`s/Sorcs rely on other people casting debuffs or healing them when they use life for magicka... its mostly a group affair. Without that they would be out of magicka in 10 seconds...
They are also using potions, the highest DPS builds pop a potion every 30s mandatory AND most even considered potion CD gear but that would make costs unbearable.
As a stamina based build your biggest sustained dps comes from light/heavy attacks... you use NO resources so you can use stamina/magicka as you wish most of the time. If your heavy/light attacks would do as much dps as the magicka burst builds then it would unbalance the game completely... everyone would be a melee user... EVERYONE.
I know its not easy to hear but as far as dps goes, a magicka build that used potions on cooldown and is using Equilibrium to keep spamming a spell with a 420 magicka cost every 1 second will never be equaled by melee using heavy attacks and using no resource. Never. Ever.
As for active melee skills... right now melee has no reliable way to get stamina back... so you would be out of stamina after 10 seconds just like a magicka build with no way to get magicka back....
Its a long post but i hope it explains it.
EDIT: I`ll also add that the highest numbers you see are only reproduced by a few people, the best ones who never miss one beat out of a 2-4 minute fight with about 100-300 rotations... few people can actually pull that off and not make a mistake.
The very first passive for Light Armor reduces spell costs by 1/2/3% per piece of light armor worn versus the first passive in Medium Armor increasing Weapon Crit by 1/2/3% per piece of medium armor worn.
However, Light Armor also gets a crit passive later (albeit for a five piece set) but nowhere does Medium Armor get any cost reduction to any sort of attacks. Those reductions are all handled in the weapon passives themselves and are at most 10% reduction versus the 21% max reduction from a full 7/7 light armor on spells.
The weapon reduction is 20%... just like the light armor 7/7 bonus, every weapon has it... so you can wear Heavy Armor and still get the reduction.
The Crit for Spell users however uses a skill slot... don`t forget that... Mage Light wastes one of your 5 skill slots.
Its 21% reduction in light armor vs 20% reduction in medium + weapon and 20% crit in light armor but you lose a skill slow vs 21% crit in medium armor.
Its also 10% crit for light armor vs 10% haste for medium, clearly showing that the damage for physical damage builds is designed to come from light/heavy attacks... I`ll also add that for any class with no crit bonus so only a 50% crit bonus, 10% Haste is double the DPS 10% crit adds....
Its not the armor... its the skills themselves, staff skill don`t scale that well either that`s why most magic builds mainly use class skills.... because the staff is also a weapon and as a weapon it has crappy scaling just like Two Handers or Bows or etc...
I stand corrected, I forgot it was a 2 point skill for 10% per. I was thinking it was 5% per point.
You are right about weapons not scaling well, too.
Haste is broken as well, it doesn't apply to Bows or any Staff.
I think a lot of the problem lies in the armor mitigation coefficients versus the ones used for spell resist.
Yes i totally agree on the armor mitigation... i play a light armor character and i used a spell to see if its worth stacking armor... short answer: its not. You barely get any extra mitigation... the only real mitigation is blocking and that doesn`t work all that well in a DPS build.
Soft Cap I believe was quoted somewhere around 30% and hard cap was 50% providing an extra 20% for those willing to go the "extra mile"0 -
clayandaudrey_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am a vr12 nightblade. I wear medium armor and I dual wield daggers. I am a khajiit. I have over 60% crit and I use a stamina heavy build. I can sustain 1.4 k dps without running out of resources. I see all these threads and wonder what am I doing different than the masses because lots of people seem to have a problem.0 -
dragnier✭✭✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »Thing is... a stamina build will NEVER do the same dps as a magic build, here is why:
Most of the builds you see DK`s/Sorcs rely on other people casting debuffs or healing them when they use life for magicka... its mostly a group affair. Without that they would be out of magicka in 10 seconds...
They are also using potions, the highest DPS builds pop a potion every 30s mandatory AND most even considered potion CD gear but that would make costs unbearable.
As a stamina based build your biggest sustained dps comes from light/heavy attacks... you use NO resources so you can use stamina/magicka as you wish most of the time. If your heavy/light attacks would do as much dps as the magicka burst builds then it would unbalance the game completely... everyone would be a melee user... EVERYONE.
I know its not easy to hear but as far as dps goes, a magicka build that used potions on cooldown and is using Equilibrium to keep spamming a spell with a 420 magicka cost every 1 second will never be equaled by melee using heavy attacks and using no resource. Never. Ever.
As for active melee skills... right now melee has no reliable way to get stamina back... so you would be out of stamina after 10 seconds just like a magicka build with no way to get magicka back....
Its a long post but i hope it explains it.
EDIT: I`ll also add that the highest numbers you see are only reproduced by a few people, the best ones who never miss one beat out of a 2-4 minute fight with about 100-300 rotations... few people can actually pull that off and not make a mistake.
The very first passive for Light Armor reduces spell costs by 1/2/3% per piece of light armor worn versus the first passive in Medium Armor increasing Weapon Crit by 1/2/3% per piece of medium armor worn.
However, Light Armor also gets a crit passive later (albeit for a five piece set) but nowhere does Medium Armor get any cost reduction to any sort of attacks. Those reductions are all handled in the weapon passives themselves and are at most 10% reduction versus the 21% max reduction from a full 7/7 light armor on spells.
The weapon reduction is 20%... just like the light armor 7/7 bonus, every weapon has it... so you can wear Heavy Armor and still get the reduction.
The Crit for Spell users however uses a skill slot... don`t forget that... Mage Light wastes one of your 5 skill slots.
Its 21% reduction in light armor vs 20% reduction in medium + weapon and 20% crit in light armor but you lose a skill slow vs 21% crit in medium armor.
Its also 10% crit for light armor vs 10% haste for medium, clearly showing that the damage for physical damage builds is designed to come from light/heavy attacks... I`ll also add that for any class with no crit bonus so only a 50% crit bonus, 10% Haste is double the DPS 10% crit adds....
Its not the armor... its the skills themselves, staff skill don`t scale that well either that`s why most magic builds mainly use class skills.... because the staff is also a weapon and as a weapon it has crappy scaling just like Two Handers or Bows or etc...
I stand corrected, I forgot it was a 2 point skill for 10% per. I was thinking it was 5% per point.
You are right about weapons not scaling well, too.
Haste is broken as well, it doesn't apply to Bows or any Staff.
I think a lot of the problem lies in the armor mitigation coefficients versus the ones used for spell resist.
Yes i totally agree on the armor mitigation... i play a light armor character and i used a spell to see if its worth stacking armor... short answer: its not. You barely get any extra mitigation... the only real mitigation is blocking and that doesn`t work all that well in a DPS build.
Soft Cap I believe was quoted somewhere around 30% and hard cap was 50% providing an extra 20% for those willing to go the "extra mile"
I heard that somewhere as well, though I don't know what those actual hard cap numbers are...
If soft cap is around 2k and that = 30% mitigation then hard cap could possibly be 3300 or so if it is a linear exchange ( 2000 / 3 = 660 ish = 10% mitigation; therefore 1300 ish = anther 20% mitigation or 2000 + 1300 = 50%), though diminishing returns makes it extremely difficult to get there because you'd have to have another 3900 actual armor value above the soft cap to reach the hard cap.
I don't know if that is actually how it works, but based on the assumption that it is:
Effectively, the only way to hard cap is with at least one skill that provides armor beyond what you can get from gear... (600 x3 jewelry slot and all heavy armor with a shield including heavy armor passives will get you around 2650 or so.) So 3300 - 2600 = 700 which would require an actual 2100 armor value to reach due to diminishing returns. Only one skill I know of has that kind of armor bonus, Bone Shield from Undaunted and it only lasts a few seconds. (If there are any others that give 2100+ armor, feel free to enlighten me as I haven't played every single skill in every single class.)
That means there is no perma hard cap on armor. Of course, there isn't on Spell Resist either.
And that completely throws any dps bonuses for either type out the window.0 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »I am a vr12 nightblade. I wear medium armor and I dual wield daggers. I am a khajiit. I have over 60% crit and I use a stamina heavy build. I can sustain 1.4 k dps without running out of resources. I see all these threads and wonder what am I doing different than the masses because lots of people seem to have a problem.
LOL obviously your DOING IT WRONG lol L2P noob. lol
Well this is something good to hear to be quite honest.0
