I'm speaking for myself and my build; right now I'm sticking with the subclass. I tried the PTS class passives, and my DPS is lower...

Third page of this thread, and I still can't see how ZoS are "destroying" subclassing.

The only thing I have learned is that the majority of people hate subclassing. Except for the majority that don't.

Wait...

Toanis wrote: »

As for subscriptions, since EU subscriptions renew as a (way more expensive) 30 days subscription in malicious compliance with EU consumer protection laws, I'm certainly not the only one who immediately cancels after subscribing, so any protest-cancelling will be lost in the noise.

What is this about? If your set your subscription to say yearly will it revert to 30 day then timing out?
Mine just updated to yearly, i saw i had a lots of crowns

OsUfi wrote: »

Third page of this thread, and I still can't see how ZoS are "destroying" subclassing.

The only thing I have learned is that the majority of people hate subclassing. Except for the majority that don't.

Wait...

One thing is certain: the vast majority of players are using subclassing. And they are benefiting from its advantages. And these poor players are only doing this because they’re forced to play the meta. Of couse it's pathetic to do awesome dps with easy cheesy beam build. Its a disgrace to get trifectas and other achievements that way. That’s why everyone hates it, right? We all hate huge dps numbers anyway. Don't we? First of all we healers and tanks. We prefer low dps which makes supporting much more exciting and interesting in vet dungeons and in trials.

Insane dps level has destroyed the game after all. Thats why everyone hates subclassing and is looking forward to update 50. Everything will be better with update 50..
Wait...

The only thing I have learned after third page of this thread is that something's not right here...

duagloth wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

duagloth wrote: »

Subclassing was not asked for, spellcrafting was. Class mastery is just a cover for finally fixing stale outdated classes.

That isn't true. This has been asked for over the years because people felt the spirit of Elder Scrolls was to mix and match whatever skills you want to on your characters. Some have argued it hasn't gone far enough in that regards.

I'm happy for the pure class buffs as someone who has a mix of subclassed and pure classes. The subclassed characters can optimize for their roles better than my pure classes since they can pick all the best passives, whereas my pure classes have less useful passives as a whole for their roles. I hope this brings them up to par a bit more.

We asked for class change tokens, subclassing was the compromise.

This compromise was actually worse than both adding and not adding class change tokens.
Using token to change your class doesnt make you stronger than just using a character of that class. It is just faster (as you dont have to create and progress that char).
ZOS could let players swap their class as easily as swapping their mundus or armor or subclass line and it would not have nearly the same negative impact as subclassing.
And if you want all 3 classlines or classset or classscript you still have to level that char with subclassing.

Ardriel wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

Third page of this thread, and I still can't see how ZoS are "destroying" subclassing.

The only thing I have learned is that the majority of people hate subclassing. Except for the majority that don't.

Wait...

One thing is certain: the vast majority of players are using subclassing. And they are benefiting from its advantages. And these poor players are only doing this because they’re forced to play the meta. Of couse it's pathetic to do awesome dps with easy cheesy beam build. Its a disgrace to get trifectas and other achievements that way. That’s why everyone hates it, right? We all hate huge dps numbers anyway. Don't we? First of all we healers and tanks. We prefer low dps which makes supporting much more exciting and interesting in vet dungeons and in trials.

Insane dps level has destroyed the game after all. Thats why everyone hates subclassing and is looking forward to update 50. Everything will be better with update 50..
Wait...

The only thing I have learned after third page of this thread is that something's not right here...

No one in their right mind can run a Pure Class character, they are that inferior. Even with the upcoming Class Passives, they are inferior. Im not talking about the new broken mythic either, that is another ball game and its only exacerbating the already out of control combat.

Pure Class vs Subclassing might end up in a more balanced place after they finish all the 7 Class reworks since by then no Class will have dedicated DPS/Tank/Healer skill lines so minmaxing a specific role via passive stacking should no longer be a thing.

Until then we will just have to wait and deal with the consequences of ZOS rushing this feature(or you can just play something else in the meantime). This is ofc assuming that they don't simply abandon the whole ''class refresh'' initiative.

shadyjane62 wrote: »

Sub classing isn't being destroyed. Their overpowering advantage over pure classes like me, a Templar, is being evened out.

My well of sympathy for sub classers is empty after a year of not even being close to competitive.

At least for your templar class this is not going to happen, I'm sorry. You should read pts forums. Templar pure class will be far from competitive with update 50.

Subclassing will be destroyed because with these buffs for - certain - classes, no one who wants to be competetive will use it any longer. Fact. Subclassing will remain a niche feature for solo players like oakensoal. Maybe still interesting for supporter roles... DDs using subclassed builds will be labelled as weak players and excluded from vet content like what is happening to Oakensoal/HA build players right now.
Instead of balancing subclassing - which could be just nerfing arcanist skillline - they are going to buff pure classes and bring even more damage into the game. This isn't going to make the game healthier and won't bring the balance people are hoping for.

Right now, pure classes are way too weak. That’s absolutely correct.
The right approach, however, would be to balance subclassing—that is, to nerf op skill lines like Herald of the Tome—and to buff pure classes slightly, so that no one is at a disadvantage if they stick with their class and don’t use subclassing.
Unfortunately, that won’t happen with the next update. Instead, there will be an even greater imbalance between the classes, and players will once again be forced to play a specific class. Doesn’t anyone get it?

Of course, they say that the final balance will be achieved gradually as the classes are reworked, and that this is just a temporary solution.
In my opinion, that’s not a good solution. And it will be a long time before all the classes are reworked. Nothing is going to get better. After the update, the whining about the individual class buffs will start again. Mark my words.

JohnRingo wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

Third page of this thread, and I still can't see how ZoS are "destroying" subclassing.

The only thing I have learned is that the majority of people hate subclassing. Except for the majority that don't.

Wait...

One thing is certain: the vast majority of players are using subclassing. And they are benefiting from its advantages. And these poor players are only doing this because they’re forced to play the meta. Of couse it's pathetic to do awesome dps with easy cheesy beam build. Its a disgrace to get trifectas and other achievements that way. That’s why everyone hates it, right? We all hate huge dps numbers anyway. Don't we? First of all we healers and tanks. We prefer low dps which makes supporting much more exciting and interesting in vet dungeons and in trials.

Insane dps level has destroyed the game after all. Thats why everyone hates subclassing and is looking forward to update 50. Everything will be better with update 50..
Wait...

The only thing I have learned after third page of this thread is that something's not right here...

No one in their right mind can run a Pure Class character, they are that inferior. Even with the upcoming Class Passives, they are inferior. Im not talking about the new broken mythic either, that is another ball game and its only exacerbating the already out of control combat.

This is an assumption I would not make post Update 50.

Pure classes now gain powerful passive synergies specifically designed to amplify their native mechanics, such as DK fire escalation or Warden status-control and sustain warfare. This creates multiplicative scaling across offense, defense, sustain, and ultimate generation simultaneously. Subclassing still provides flexibility and niche combinations, but it sacrifices these mastery bonuses and often produces fragmented ecosystems with weaker long-fight coherence. That is the intent as I understand it

In that post, they were referring to my statement and to the current situation (update 49).

Ardriel wrote: »

At least for your templar class this is not going to happen, I'm sorry. You should read pts forums. Templar pure class will be far from competitive with update 50.

Not sure how this rhetoric started, but my pureclass magplar parse went from 105k on live, to 140k+ on pts still using velothi. A dummy parser can definitely hit even higher. I clock a 40k+ dps inflation which is one of the most drastic improvements compared to all my other pure-class parses atm only inflating 20 - 30k in direct comparison.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Silaf wrote: »

"Play how you want" and all dps in the trial must look the same as an arcanist variant.... So boring.
Fot healer and tanks subclassing is working a little better but overall a bad design choiche made to sell the DLC.

SolarRune wrote: »

Forcing any group comp is wrong - by giving each class a unique buff you are swinging things entirely the other way and we end up with leads tring to cover all classes for the buffs, and as a player you get turned away because you're the wrong class..

I believe you are conflating player behavior with developer intent. The devs do not enforce any particular group comp or dps class/subclass requirement. A better argument would be: why can I only do this much dps on my spec but another class/subclass combo with the same gear can do 20% more with a way easier rotation? Unfortunately I don't believe that is something we will ever get an answer on. Plus I imagine it is incredibly difficult to actually achieve that balance at this point in the game's life.

5% difference is not a huge deal, 20% is massive. I don't know the actual discrepancies we're dealing with here so I'm just using that as an example.

The answer to your question in bold is that not EVERY class was intended to play EVERY role equally. Where a class may struggle in terms of DPS output, that class SHOULD make a better healer or tank. That has pretty much been the case until subclassing came along.

DK's struggled to keep up in terms of DPS, and were bottom-tier as healers, but they were the gold standard for tanking.

Plar's were better than DK's in terms of DPS output, but were mid tanks, but made excellent healers.

Wardens were iffy on DPS, but made excellent healers and DPS.

IMO, this is how a game SHOULD be. Some classes should perform certain roles better than others. This is what gives the game variety, and gives you incentive to play different classes.

This.

And "Why" is it happening now? I think the new leadership realize this and want to unwind subclassing (because they realize it's a mistake) but know the absolute heck they would hear from parts of the community if they fully removed subclassing so the best path forward with least resistance is what they are doing.

Props to them for being bold enough to make this much change.. wish they could go the full way and just remove subclassing but... I'll take the win where I can. GGs ZoS.

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Since 100% subclassing won't ever get removed from the game, what is the fantastical logic behind: a system that requires double the Skill Points and triple the XP to Master (if you count from starting brand new) should make you less powerful than what you "get by default"?

Call me blind but I can't see the logic, for the love of Mara.

When subclassers got released subclassers defending it claimed that it increased diversity and that balance doesn’t matter because pure class players should just play uncompetitive.

Now that classes get reworked (increasing build diversity by making pure classes viable again) they all complain because players might not be forced to subclass anymore to stay competitive and their previous arguments don’t count anymore.

2 skillpoints for every subclass skills is not a disadvantage at all for people who have enaugh skillpoints and farmed fast if you don't.

You only need up to 2 subclass skilllines so you mastered the others without build advantage for diversity like you will still be able to do.

META sets requiring more effort to get than 2 subclasses for much less effort often were nerfed after much less time so effort in builds was never guaranteed forever and ZOS already announced at release they would look how it changes PvP balance and make changes if necessary.

Many players hate subclassing despite having mastered it and some who never shied putting effort in their build even quit because they just don’t want to play that way.

SkaiFaith wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Well pure classes should be stronger than Sub Classes

Remember that saying, I fear not the man who has practiced 1000 different kicks, I fear the man who practiced the same kick 1000 times, in this instance swap "Kicks" for "Classes" a Master should be deadlier than a Jack of all trades because if you subclass that is the path you choose, to not be a master of anything.

I'd agree if, as often suggested, we would get rid of classes from the get go and we could choose at character creation any skill line we want, skipping the requirement of first leveling each class and then releveling even slower. With the amount of effort put in, no thanks, right now subclassing should be more powerful. But sure, I agree with you if we get rid of the thousand requirements and let it be free. (The concept of class would remain, but it would be up to you if to pursue it from the start or not) - this way it would make sense, not as it is now.

EDIT: we often hear "2 Bars MUST perform better than 1 Bar because more effort MUST be rewarded!" - why shouldn't this be the case with the additional effort put into subclassing? - Remove the additional effort and I'd agree. Not otherwise.

2 bars is how the game was intended at start and constantly requires more player input than a niche 1 bar build and if you are unable to give that input your 2bar build will be weaker than a 1bar build.

SkaiFaith wrote: »

EDIT: we often hear "2 Bars MUST perform better than 1 Bar because more effort MUST be rewarded!" - why shouldn't this be the case with the additional effort put into subclassing? - Remove the additional effort and I'd agree. Not otherwise.

I agree. The sensible move forward is to

1. Change the skill point requirement from 2 to 1
2. remove the extra experience requirement for subclassed skill lines
3. share progress between natural class skill lines and subclassed skill lines
4. remove the restrictions on class skill lines

This would make the effort:reward ratio less unbalanced between subclassed and pureclassed characters.

Rungar wrote: »

i dont think subclassing was a mistake, it just wasnt finished.

Yep, nothing wrong with subclassing itself, problem is imbalanced class skills

hybridization is the main thing that should be reverted - it removed trade offs that used to make builds distinct. Separate damage, max stat and crit.

Radiate77 wrote: »

People generally dislike a specific synergy possible with Subclassing in PvP, and another specific synergy in PvE… not the system itself.

It’s like amputating your arm for a papercut.

I’ve seen this before in a game that used to host over 100,000 concurrent active players each expansion that is now sitting at what… dropping below like 10,000 people?

Let’s do what they did./s
Imagine being a Destiny and ESO fan. 🥲

Wow does it feel bad to see this… even more reason to avoid walking back systems people know and love. We do not want to end up like those guys.

An RPG needs to grow to stay relevant, and you do not grow by creating content and then sunsetting it like we’re seeing with Red War -> Forsaken Night Market, or by walking back systems like Weapon Crafting Subclassing through Weapon Tiering Class Mastery.

I hate watching this in real time. 😅