code65536 wrote: »

BTW, when I say that this is a matter of how we fundamentally perceive fairness, I want to point out that this is something that is so deeply-seated that it affects animals too.

Take for example, this excerpt:

[The monkey test subjects] normally like cucumbers just fine. So we compared that to a control where both of them were trading and getting a cucumber and they were more than happy to eat those cucumber pieces when both they and their partner were getting a cucumber. And in another control we controlled to see what happened if the grapes were visible but no one was getting them. So that, control was actually particularly mean. We would wave the grapes in front of their faces until they gestured towards it. And then when they gestured we would put the grape down and we would give them the cucumber. But importantly, we did the same thing for both monkeys. So they both ended up getting the cucumber and in both cases they accepted and ate their cucumbers most of the time. Whereas, when their partner got a grape, they were much more likely to refuse their cucumber, which suggests that they aren't as enthusiastic about those cucumbers when their partner is getting something better.

I’d prefer the grape. 🍇

Emeratis wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Emeratis wrote: »

This isn't a jealousy issue, this is about the ongoing issues with rng and eso drops. A random drop system with no pity means someone will lowroll and while that may not seem bad at the start, it adds up dramatically.

If every event offers a fragment, and we have about 1 a month and a player never rngs a fragment in any event for that year, they will be 12,000 trade bars behind. On the flipside, a player who highrolls and gets every fragment can have up to 12,000 trade bars to spend. Player 1 with bad rng cannot mitigate this or change this at all and is just down to if the server rolls lucky. Having players potentially have a dramatically different income of trade bars that significant is not fun or fair. Are you okay with potentially having that much less of a limited currency? I'm not.

I don't blame or resent other players who get the drop, but ZOS needs to realize this is not rewarding or enjoyable. Without a hard pity like I suggested in my first post (making it so that if you do not get a drop one event you are guaranteed to have it drop the next or something to mitigate low rng edge cases) this system over time will probably become toxic for the game.

They learned this lesson with stickerbook, they at least acknowledge this with map based leads, so I'm baffled as to the step back here when they have known for a while their rng does not treat everyone equal and can dramatically impact a player's experience.

Of course it's a jealousy issue. You're suggesting entitlement deserving pity which simply isn't the case.

All players are offered the same number of trade bars (excluding premium purchase of course). Because some players hit a random lottery doesn't make those who didn't any less whole.

The moment the words "not fair" are used in reference to somebody other than oneself getting a free prize, that's jealousy peeking through.

I don't appreciate assumptions being made about me or why I'm advocating for this. As I said in my first post, I play a lot so even if I lowroll it will probably be a wash for me at the end of the day, but some of my friends have far less time to play or don't play as often and it will negatively impact them. I frequently check in during events with my guildies to see how the event is treating them and some people lowroll and without help would not get certain items from events. Unlike those rare items, friends and guildies cannot help a player lowrolling rng wise. It is purely down to if a player is lucky or not.
<snipped for brevity>

Oh I assure you, I was making no assumptions (nor judgement) about you at all. If that is how you received it, I apologize. I was simply attempting to label the negative reaction by pointing out key identifiers to recognize it for what it is.

Not saying there's anything wrong with jealousy or envy. Heck, I'm jealous of many rewards I see other players stumble into out of dumb luck. It's human nature. But too, I can see it for what it is, and not fault the game for my own hangups. In this particular instance, I haven't had the luck or good fortune to loot the saddle fragment. I really wish I did, and still hoping I do before the week is out. But I don't begrudge those who do, nor ZOS for tossing it into the RNG pool.

code65536 wrote: »

BTW, when I say that this is a matter of how we fundamentally perceive fairness, I want to point out that this is something that is so deeply-seated that it affects animals too.

Take for example, this excerpt:

[The monkey test subjects] normally like cucumbers just fine. So we compared that to a control where both of them were trading and getting a cucumber and they were more than happy to eat those cucumber pieces when both they and their partner were getting a cucumber. And in another control we controlled to see what happened if the grapes were visible but no one was getting them. So that, control was actually particularly mean. We would wave the grapes in front of their faces until they gestured towards it. And then when they gestured we would put the grape down and we would give them the cucumber. But importantly, we did the same thing for both monkeys. So they both ended up getting the cucumber and in both cases they accepted and ate their cucumbers most of the time. Whereas, when their partner got a grape, they were much more likely to refuse their cucumber, which suggests that they aren't as enthusiastic about those cucumbers when their partner is getting something better.

That monkey study isn't a justification to feel ripped off or unhappy because someone else got a free fragment. If it were, almost everybody would feel upset about it.

If anything, it's an example of how jealous and irrational it is to complain about not getting a grape. The choice to see it that way is causing the upset.

Is there a study about why it feels good to see a good thing happen to someone else? Because that's how I feel about it.

It would be nice if they could add extra reqards and incentives without a few people making it sound like a bad idea and something unfair. How players perceive this free stuff does matter to some extent—and I would want to encourage it myself lol.

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BTW, when I say that this is a matter of how we fundamentally perceive fairness, I want to point out that this is something that is so deeply-seated that it affects animals too.

Take for example, this excerpt:

[The monkey test subjects] normally like cucumbers just fine. So we compared that to a control where both of them were trading and getting a cucumber and they were more than happy to eat those cucumber pieces when both they and their partner were getting a cucumber. And in another control we controlled to see what happened if the grapes were visible but no one was getting them. So that, control was actually particularly mean. We would wave the grapes in front of their faces until they gestured towards it. And then when they gestured we would put the grape down and we would give them the cucumber. But importantly, we did the same thing for both monkeys. So they both ended up getting the cucumber and in both cases they accepted and ate their cucumbers most of the time. Whereas, when their partner got a grape, they were much more likely to refuse their cucumber, which suggests that they aren't as enthusiastic about those cucumbers when their partner is getting something better.

That monkey study isn't a justification to feel ripped off or unhappy because someone else got a free fragment. If it were, almost everybody would feel upset about it.

If anything, it's an example of how jealous and irrational it is to complain about not getting a grape. The choice to see it that way is causing the upset.

Is there a study about why it feels good to see a good thing happen to someone else? Because that's how I feel about it.

It would be nice if they could add extra reqards and incentives without a few people making it sound like a bad idea and something unfair. How players perceive this free stuff does matter to some extent—and I would want to encourage it myself lol.

Yes, it is irrational, which is why it's interesting and noteworthy. They are refusing a perfectly good cucumber piece because they see someone else getting the better grape, which is indeed irrational, which tells us that this is an emotional response, one that is deeply ingrained.

People can certainly choose to reframe the situation to not look at it that way, but the point that's worth driving here is that doing so is pushing back against the natural instincts that most people have.

Not everyone is upset by this, because as humans we are capable of engaging our rational thinking to override the emotional response from this being unfair (because it is objectively unfair). But not everyone does. And, more importantly, why are we being put into a situation where this sort of override becomes necessary?

Alastrine wrote: »

Emeratis wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Emeratis wrote: »

This isn't a jealousy issue, this is about the ongoing issues with rng and eso drops. A random drop system with no pity means someone will lowroll and while that may not seem bad at the start, it adds up dramatically.

If every event offers a fragment, and we have about 1 a month and a player never rngs a fragment in any event for that year, they will be 12,000 trade bars behind. On the flipside, a player who highrolls and gets every fragment can have up to 12,000 trade bars to spend. Player 1 with bad rng cannot mitigate this or change this at all and is just down to if the server rolls lucky. Having players potentially have a dramatically different income of trade bars that significant is not fun or fair. Are you okay with potentially having that much less of a limited currency? I'm not.

I don't blame or resent other players who get the drop, but ZOS needs to realize this is not rewarding or enjoyable. Without a hard pity like I suggested in my first post (making it so that if you do not get a drop one event you are guaranteed to have it drop the next or something to mitigate low rng edge cases) this system over time will probably become toxic for the game.

They learned this lesson with stickerbook, they at least acknowledge this with map based leads, so I'm baffled as to the step back here when they have known for a while their rng does not treat everyone equal and can dramatically impact a player's experience.

Of course it's a jealousy issue. You're suggesting entitlement deserving pity which simply isn't the case.

All players are offered the same number of trade bars (excluding premium purchase of course). Because some players hit a random lottery doesn't make those who didn't any less whole.

The moment the words "not fair" are used in reference to somebody other than oneself getting a free prize, that's jealousy peeking through.

I don't appreciate assumptions being made about me or why I'm advocating for this. As I said in my first post, I play a lot so even if I lowroll it will probably be a wash for me at the end of the day, but some of my friends have far less time to play or don't play as often and it will negatively impact them. I frequently check in during events with my guildies to see how the event is treating them and some people lowroll and without help would not get certain items from events. Unlike those rare items, friends and guildies cannot help a player lowrolling rng wise. It is purely down to if a player is lucky or not.

I advocate against rng based systems in eso because I've been on the bad side of it before multiple times. I have been farming a Bastion Nymic lead for a year and a half at least, doing 2-4 of them a day. I still have not gotten my lead. I was 600 drops before I got my first vma inferno and almost got kicked from a core prog because of it. This is why rng based systems such as this can be problematic. ZOS has walked back this problematic rng in the past so I don't understand why they do it here and now when people are already anxious about the new system.

This is my last attempt at explaining it, if you don't understand it at this point I'm done engaging.

It's not no one understands what you're saying, they are arguing the validity of it in their opinions.

I do find it a bit funny to say the fact that some other player got a fragment they won't have to use bars for 'negatively impacts' people who can't play as much. I mean, really? If those people want the mount then they will manage to play enough to buy the fragments and they would have had to do that anyway if ZoS hadn't implemented this. So they are only playing the event just as it has been since day one of events and fragments. The only thing that is 'negatively impacted' is indeed jealousy. They aren't being asked to do anything more than play the same event the same way it has been for years.
Seriously, and if that doesn't fit their play style that's unfortunate but if the collectible is that important to them then kind of find the time I guess... as they must have for all the ones preceding this.

So if your friends, or you, get the next fragment in the next event are you going to come and still lament how everyone else is negatively impacted because you did and someone else didn't. No, just smile, do a little fist pump and say "Yes!!!!" and be happy!!!

IT'S A GAME.

I've been playing since day one and trying to get the Princess Pig pet fragments. Played every day of every single Jesters Festival and on my main account I have ONE of the pieces. I know pple that have had them all for ages, I'm happy for them.

@code65536 and @spartaxoxo said my point more eloquently than I have and I thank them both for that. My frustration is systematic pain points that we know from previous examples in this game do not work well. The new team is doing a lot of great things, but these kinds of systems should be a relic of the past for various reasons. In rng based systems with no pity and time limits to get something and limited draws, there will be people who inevitably lowroll.

What I like about events is celebrating people getting cool things but also being able to help those who are less lucky get a thing. My guild has had a huge influx of new and returning players lately and 1000 trade bars is more precious to them than it is to someone like me who plays a lot. There is already a huge gap in the resources of players who have played for years and those who have not and I have concerns that this will only exacerbate that problem.

My feelings on this problem are not related to whether I personally have gotten the fragment or not. This kind of game design is not healthy for the game and should be replaced with a more mindful system. The dev team has since January talked about wanting to reduce fomo and feels bad things in game and on this they have missed the mark on that goal.

Alastrine wrote: »

IT'S A GAME.

"It's a game! Why are people getting upset over such trivial matters?" Yes, I agree.

"It's a game! Why put in a mechanism that will drive a number of people to become upset during an event that is supposed to be fun and lighthearted?" I agree with this statement as well.

I think if people want to feel upset, they should direct that feeling at the design of these mechanisms, not at other people who are more fortunate. But that tendency for people to be jealous of those who are more fortunate is one of the reasons why we should be upset at the level of care that went into the design of these mechanisms.

Alastrine wrote: »

I've been playing since day one and trying to get the Princess Pig pet fragments. Played every day of every single Jesters Festival and on my main account I have ONE of the pieces. I know pple that have had them all for ages, I'm happy for them.

One of my older alts accounts, that I've had since 2018 (the pig was introduced in 2020), has been stuck at 1/7 fragments on EU, despite getting every possible Stupendous box every year (oh, and it's at 7/7 on NA). And my newest alt account, from 2024, is now at 2/7 fragments. I frankly have never cared about the pig, and at this point it's just amusing to watch yet another year go by without a single fragment on that specific account.

But wouldn't you agree that it is concerning that this sort of thing can happen in the first place and that, despite years of people posting about the Sovereign Sow problem (I've seen threads about this pig every. single. year), that this problem still exists in 2026? I'm happy to read that you're happy for those who have gotten it, but are you happy at ZOS for designing the system this way?

salander7 wrote: »

What I said "on the name of new players", as you put it, is based of years managing a social and pve guild.
Newer people always noticed one of the obvious issues of the previous tickets system: depending on the time they started playing, they would need to wait for years and still need to spend crowns on tickets to get certain past year rewards, which I understand how it is frustrating, because rewards from 2021 to 2025 required 195 to 215 tickets per year.
That was the only FOMO the older event system had.
Considering how they increased ticket yield during those years, and how they've changed the system, I think they did consider the issue.
My guess is I'll be on 15-20k? trade bars by the end of season 0. I got most rewards in Bazaar from many years of gameplay. A newer player will not, so saving 1k per event is gonna be a bigger deal for them.

Sure, I get your point. Unfortunately it is too early to do exact math before Season 0 starts, as it will affect the bar balance.
Before it, we can do some math based on the shop:
1. I can see at the moment Bazaar has 12k+ bar amount of trades for the longtime player, and 169k+ for newcomer. It is 150k+ gap.
2. In addition the current indrik vendor amount is 12k bars (1base+2morphs+2pets). For the whole set of indriks it will be 9base+8morphs+8pets = 9*2000+8*4000+8*1000 = 60k gap.
3. The current assistant amount is 18k bars (Cloth are x10 for sure). Gross eval of items-per-year in bars will be min 5base+4morphs = 5*1500+4*3000 = 19,5k bars per year (yep, those 195 tickets). I don't count things like cloth or other collectibles that require 10x fragments or so; don't count 5-part morphs. It is just 3-part morphed ones as a gross minimum. After-Indrik era started in 2021, so we have a minimum of 5 years of post-indrik morphable rewards. It is at least 97k gap.

Summary we have a gap over 300k bars between a longtime player and a newcomer.
If we fight for _probable_ saving of 1k per event, that will give us a bonus of 12k per year. Only 25 years to reach those 300k. Long live the ESO!
Just joking, I know the real income will be different That doesn't make the 300k gap lower, though.

Well, seriously, I would fight for lowering the prices on the Bazaar. At least 5 times lower from the current.
Especially for progressive low prices for older stuff. The older - the cheaper. Are those 7yo indriks still worth 6k bars (60 tickets by the old system)? I doubt it.
That would help new players way more, if you ask me.

As for plans for season 0 with its bars, I won't look at it with rose-colored glasses.
It is a merging of two systems which both have their incomes and spendings. While somebody could praise probable double income, I would curse quadruple expenses. I guess it can suck the players dry.
That's why I suggest fighting for lowering the prices. To cut the expenses for all.

code65536 wrote: »

Alastrine wrote: »

IT'S A GAME.

"It's a game! Why are people getting upset over such trivial matters?" Yes, I agree.

"It's a game! Why put in a mechanism that will drive a number of people to become upset during an event that is supposed to be fun and lighthearted?" I agree with this statement as well.

I think if people want to feel upset, they should direct that feeling at the design of these mechanisms, not at other people who are more fortunate. But that tendency for people to be jealous of those who are more fortunate is one of the reasons why we should be upset at the level of care that went into the design of these mechanisms.

Alastrine wrote: »

I've been playing since day one and trying to get the Princess Pig pet fragments. Played every day of every single Jesters Festival and on my main account I have ONE of the pieces. I know pple that have had them all for ages, I'm happy for them.

One of my older alts accounts, that I've had since 2018 (the pig was introduced in 2020), has been stuck at 1/7 fragments on EU, despite getting every possible Stupendous box every year (oh, and it's at 7/7 on NA). And my newest alt account, from 2024, is now at 2/7 fragments. I frankly have never cared about the pig, and at this point it's just amusing to watch yet another year go by without a single fragment on that specific account.

But wouldn't you agree that it is concerning that this sort of thing can happen in the first place and that, despite years of people posting about the Sovereign Sow problem (I've seen threads about this pig every. single. year), that this problem still exists in 2026? I'm happy to read that you're happy for those who have gotten it, but are you happy at ZOS for designing the system this way?

I see where you are coming from but to be honest, I never really worried about it. Same as you, it was like "another year gone". Should it have a better drop rate? Yes it should. But do I give it another thought other than the Festival week? Not even once. I am neither happy nor unhappy. I'd smile if I got it and seriously not even think about it if I didn't.

Just going to add this in to show the amount of engagement the current system generates for someone who has done this event in past years and has nothing else to collect beyond what's in the gold boxes.

Account #1 (EU):
I log in. Character is already at Hammerdeath Arena, in Stormhaven. I pick up two quests - one to kill the boar, one to retrieve some apples. I kill the boar, delaying just long enough to get the first apple. I hand in one quest but not the second, even though I completed both.
= sub 3 mins logged in.

Account #2 (NA):
I log in. Character is already at Hammerdeath Arena. I have the second quest ready to hand in from yesterday. This reduces everything to talking to one NPC.
= sub 1 min logged in.

I spend more time logging in than time engaged with the event.

I think it's perfectly valid to wish that a new system, minor a system as it might be, would give me a reason to go engage with the event again.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Unrelated, but fyi when you kill the boar, you'll get an apple regardless from the NPC who complaints about always missing the main event. So, you don't need to delay killing the boar.

It could well be that one I'm getting, since the timing always seems to line up perfectly and I only ever have one at the end. I guess I can save a few more seconds next time.

code65536 wrote: »

BTW, when I say that this is a matter of how we fundamentally perceive fairness, I want to point out that this is something that is so deeply-seated that it affects animals too.

Take for example, https://www.apa.org/news/podcasts/speaking-of-psychology/fairness[/url]:

I love that you cited this! I find these studies so interesting. They've also looked at dogs, iirc, and wolves, and they found that dogs also care, although they care more about the number of rewards than the type of reward.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rare. Limited Time. Bound.

Pick two.

I really wish ZOS would stick to this rule.

Agreed.

Alastrine wrote: »

IT'S A GAME.

I've been playing since day one and trying to get the Princess Pig pet fragments. Played every day of every single Jesters Festival and on my main account I have ONE of the pieces. I know pple that have had them all for ages, I'm happy for them.

I'd like to say a couple of things on this.

First, while it's just a game, I think people should care or get some kind of enjoyment out of playing the game, and frustration if it ends up not being fun, or else why do it? Yes, hopefully most people won't feel as unhappy about the situation as they would about some kind of tragedy in real life, but that doesn't means emotions about the game are invalid. Humans are supposed to have fun!. Becoming frustrated at perceived unfairness in a video game is no different than feeling disappointment with losing a sports game (watching or playing), having a beach day be rained out, having a vacation be canceled, not being invited to a party, etc. It is ok to have feelings about the things that exist mainly for fun; I think it would be weirder if we didn't.

Second, players can have multiple feelings. They can be happy for their friends who obtain a drop and become frustrated if they don't obtain it themselves. It's not either/or. Throughout this thread I've seen some logic chains with what seems to be that underlying assumption, and it isn't true.

code65536 wrote: »

I think that drops like this should either be rare, like the jackpot reward during Witches, or it should basically be guaranteed for anyone who participates in the event.

The middle ground that it currently occupies is a very dangerous one, because if a player doesn't get it while observing many of their friends and peers getting it, they will think, "that's not fair, that they're all getting this, and I'm not". In contrast, if it's so rare, like the Witches Festival jackpot, that many people won' t know of anyone who's gotten it and most won't know of more than one person who's gotten it, then that paints a very different context in their mind, and they're far more likely to view it with the intended "oh, congrats to them for hitting the jackpot" mentality.

Ultimately, it's a matter of how we fundamentally perceive fairness. Not getting it when over half your friends get it feels very different than not getting it when you know of only one person who's gotten it.

Anyway, I agree with Code's summary, and the OP, on this one.

code65536 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Unrelated, but fyi when you kill the boar, you'll get an apple regardless from the NPC who complaints about always missing the main event. So, you don't need to delay killing the boar.

That's correct.

To further elaborate, there are two different apple basket fill-ups. One happens on a timer and is one of the mechanics of this fight. If the basket is filled and the player doesn't take the apples, after a while, the boar will eat the apples and power up. It's actually a neat little mechanic that unfortunately almost nobody ever sees because you need to not only be slow enough to allow the apples to spawn, but also slow enough to give the boar a chance to go for the apples.

After the boar is killed, if there are no filled apple baskets around, a NPC will fill a basket shortly after the boar's death. This is to ensure that the apple quest is always completable, no matter what.

If you delay killing the boar to spawn a timed apple basket, take the apples, and then finish off the boar after clearing the basket, then the post-death apples will still spawn, allowing you to collect two apple baskets in quick succession. You know, if you're a really, really big fan of sparkling cider (mmm!). Or if you just like to make Jad'zirri happy.

Sometimes for fun, I’ll hit King Boar once and then let Zerith-var fight him the rest of the time while I take the Princes that show up and wait for three apples. Zerith-var has mostly finished him off by then, I’ll help if needed and collect my fourth apple going out the door. But sometimes I don’t have time and I’m content with just the one apple at the end. 🍎