nightbringer1993 wrote: »

ZOS should have released all the class refresh at once. Even if that means that we had to wait for summer next year.

Right now the classes will be seriously imbalanced and classes like nightblade and necro will be seriously underperforming because they will be refreshed last.

I still don’t understand why Necro is refreshed last. Four years that the players are asking for refresh and ZOS spits at our faces again by placing Necro last(excluding arcanist).

Necro has been dead for years. It's also my favorite class.

It makes zero sense to have it refreshed last but I don't have an issue with other classes having fun in the meantime.

Make another character or accept that it isn't going to change anytime soon. The choice is yours.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

There is one small relief I would be surprised if anybody opposed:

REMOVE THE FLAME DAMAGE TAKEN ON VAMPIRE

I was all about this during the last DK meta, I'm all about it again. This would give us all Undeath at its modest 10% rather than the OP 30% last time. Right now I assume all non Glass Cannon have dropped Vamp for this patch.

Players should take vampire for the abilities not the passives.

Vampires take extra Flame Damage to conform to the series lore and basic common sense.

Take the line if you want to play like a vampire not for the free stats. We lived that stupid life for way too long, most of vampire's entire existence. Originally, you took it for the free regen. Later, you took it for the free mitigation. No build decision should be free. The tiny increases to ability cost by themselves are not a high enough price for the power.

@YandereGirlfriend

Says who? Passives drive many choices, it's driven the DW meta for years, even before Hybridization remember lotsa MagDK and Melee MagBlades slotted Swords for the Damage Done passive. Good bad, up for debate, but it's the game we play.

The Stealth Passives enable playing like a Vampire and Undeath is back to where it was in the Beforetimes, a small bone thrown to Light Armor wearers (insert Skara Minoc's Mitigation graph). Unnatural Movement is a very "active" Passive I'd say, almost a skill effect.

The Ult is a strong crutch for 3x Offensive Line stacks, even if all the other skills besides the spammable are lacking right now. (and it's not a tremendously Vampiric skill that claw, imo)

Stealth play, crutch Ult for subclass demons that can stand up to Corrosive, take out the Flame Penalty and it would give some power back to Non DKs.

I think I always favor modifying Global Passives to address exigencies? Passives are easily modified it seems, just look at the history of Glacial Presence, a Passive which I suspect will soon get everyone's attention.

As for the lore no it's all slander! Dirty lies by the living. Free us of this penalty!

This sounds like you simply want the free goodies without having to actually pay for them.

Which is entirely par for the course for ESO vampirism. It is viewed by most as a mere stats pinata for effectively zero mechanical downside. Especially in this era of largely trivialized sustain.

No, if you want to be a vampire, then accept its conditions. It is not the skill line's job to worry about which class is the current flavor-of-the-month. Vampires have taken a malus to Flame Damage in literally every modern TES game. If anything, it should probably be higher than what it is to better conform to the lore.

If it doesn't make sense for your build then... it doesn't make sense for your build. Very simple. If you do want it... then adapt accordingly.

Bring back old Mist Form and Bat Swarm please. Then the passives are just that, a passive, cause i’d be a vamp for those skills.

SneaK wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

There is one small relief I would be surprised if anybody opposed:

REMOVE THE FLAME DAMAGE TAKEN ON VAMPIRE

I was all about this during the last DK meta, I'm all about it again. This would give us all Undeath at its modest 10% rather than the OP 30% last time. Right now I assume all non Glass Cannon have dropped Vamp for this patch.

Players should take vampire for the abilities not the passives.

Vampires take extra Flame Damage to conform to the series lore and basic common sense.

Take the line if you want to play like a vampire not for the free stats. We lived that stupid life for way too long, most of vampire's entire existence. Originally, you took it for the free regen. Later, you took it for the free mitigation. No build decision should be free. The tiny increases to ability cost by themselves are not a high enough price for the power.

@YandereGirlfriend

Says who? Passives drive many choices, it's driven the DW meta for years, even before Hybridization remember lotsa MagDK and Melee MagBlades slotted Swords for the Damage Done passive. Good bad, up for debate, but it's the game we play.

The Stealth Passives enable playing like a Vampire and Undeath is back to where it was in the Beforetimes, a small bone thrown to Light Armor wearers (insert Skara Minoc's Mitigation graph). Unnatural Movement is a very "active" Passive I'd say, almost a skill effect.

The Ult is a strong crutch for 3x Offensive Line stacks, even if all the other skills besides the spammable are lacking right now. (and it's not a tremendously Vampiric skill that claw, imo)

Stealth play, crutch Ult for subclass demons that can stand up to Corrosive, take out the Flame Penalty and it would give some power back to Non DKs.

I think I always favor modifying Global Passives to address exigencies? Passives are easily modified it seems, just look at the history of Glacial Presence, a Passive which I suspect will soon get everyone's attention.

As for the lore no it's all slander! Dirty lies by the living. Free us of this penalty!

This sounds like you simply want the free goodies without having to actually pay for them.

Which is entirely par for the course for ESO vampirism. It is viewed by most as a mere stats pinata for effectively zero mechanical downside. Especially in this era of largely trivialized sustain.

No, if you want to be a vampire, then accept its conditions. It is not the skill line's job to worry about which class is the current flavor-of-the-month. Vampires have taken a malus to Flame Damage in literally every modern TES game. If anything, it should probably be higher than what it is to better conform to the lore.

If it doesn't make sense for your build then... it doesn't make sense for your build. Very simple. If you do want it... then adapt accordingly.

Bring back old Mist Form and Bat Swarm please. Then the passives are just that, a passive, cause i’d be a vamp for those skills.

All they have to do is keep swarming scion as the transformation form, and turn the other morph which has zero practical use into devouring batswarm. But this will never be done, unless we can get the entire population to pitchfork for it I guess. Idk if people are prepared for dk to be that back though. Maybe when the refreshes are done, people could cope with it.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

There is one small relief I would be surprised if anybody opposed:

REMOVE THE FLAME DAMAGE TAKEN ON VAMPIRE

I was all about this during the last DK meta, I'm all about it again. This would give us all Undeath at its modest 10% rather than the OP 30% last time. Right now I assume all non Glass Cannon have dropped Vamp for this patch.

Players should take vampire for the abilities not the passives.

Vampires take extra Flame Damage to conform to the series lore and basic common sense.

Take the line if you want to play like a vampire not for the free stats. We lived that stupid life for way too long, most of vampire's entire existence. Originally, you took it for the free regen. Later, you took it for the free mitigation. No build decision should be free. The tiny increases to ability cost by themselves are not a high enough price for the power.

@YandereGirlfriend

Says who? Passives drive many choices, it's driven the DW meta for years, even before Hybridization remember lotsa MagDK and Melee MagBlades slotted Swords for the Damage Done passive. Good bad, up for debate, but it's the game we play.

The Stealth Passives enable playing like a Vampire and Undeath is back to where it was in the Beforetimes, a small bone thrown to Light Armor wearers (insert Skara Minoc's Mitigation graph). Unnatural Movement is a very "active" Passive I'd say, almost a skill effect.

The Ult is a strong crutch for 3x Offensive Line stacks, even if all the other skills besides the spammable are lacking right now. (and it's not a tremendously Vampiric skill that claw, imo)

Stealth play, crutch Ult for subclass demons that can stand up to Corrosive, take out the Flame Penalty and it would give some power back to Non DKs.

I think I always favor modifying Global Passives to address exigencies? Passives are easily modified it seems, just look at the history of Glacial Presence, a Passive which I suspect will soon get everyone's attention.

As for the lore no it's all slander! Dirty lies by the living. Free us of this penalty!

This sounds like you simply want the free goodies without having to actually pay for them.

Which is entirely par for the course for ESO vampirism. It is viewed by most as a mere stats pinata for effectively zero mechanical downside. Especially in this era of largely trivialized sustain.

No, if you want to be a vampire, then accept its conditions. It is not the skill line's job to worry about which class is the current flavor-of-the-month. Vampires have taken a malus to Flame Damage in literally every modern TES game. If anything, it should probably be higher than what it is to better conform to the lore.

If it doesn't make sense for your build then... it doesn't make sense for your build. Very simple. If you do want it... then adapt accordingly.

Yeah I'm saying they could adapt the whole game to relieve us of a InstaWhip meta for the next 3 months by turning the debuff off.

But of course I want it for free, I'm spoiled not having had to fight many DKs for months.

It’s great

Tanks are dying a lot easier

The damage is creating actual good PVP with less stalemates

There is a lot of DKs of course (shiny new toy), but still other effective setups

If they are bringing all classes up to this level, PVP is going to rock and have some great variety

Well done ZOS

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

This is relevant because pure DK looks cooler with a 2H.

I remain convinced the original Molten Armaments Heavy Attack buff was supposed to synergize with 2h's Follow Up and Heavy Armor's Revitalize. Maybe it was a delusion of mine, I didn't play during Beta, it's still a bit murky to me whether StamDK was "supposed" to exist? Or if it was retrofitted to fill the tanky Warrior slot.

Somebody else recently pointed out the On Kill passive is a big weak point for 2h in PvP.

The original molten armaments and before all the heavy attack buff changes relegating it to just a pve thing; DK had a niche of achieving "one-shots" with inferno staff heavy attacks.(15 - 25k crits) No dk ever used it for any other heavy attack for any serious method in pvp, other than lightning heavy attack builds which dk for its time also excelled in rather ironically instead of say: a sorcerer.

That said, you could use it on a melee for some added burst and I'm sure their were dks that did that. But what I'm referencing is the more outlier niche use of -solely- heavy attacking and being lethal and effective with it alone.

As for stamdk "supposing" to exist, it certainly did. But it was a more advanced playstyle, magicka in general for all classes was more favorable and easier to play.

That one shot Heavy was only after Hybridization gave mDK Corrosive yeah? Yeah I was talking about how I think the original Molten Heavy Buff was designed to synergize with 2h and Heavy Armor. The reality was the old Forward Momentum with HoT was the go to for Weapond based DK well until its extinction by Hybrid Whip, in fact that skill was blamed for carrying Heavy Armor Stam during one of its stronger times. (and appropriately)

What I'm getting it is this not clearly a Mage / not clearly a Warrior Hybrid Class the original idea before release, and the split into mDK Mage and sDK Warrior a later change?

I'm aware this is all extremely tangential to the OP 😂

No it had already been changed by then. This was way back in the 2015 - 2018 era of the game.

Yes I remember in 2015 the class kit had Physical Damage in Take Flight, and Physical Penetration in Corrosive, but the Corrosive AoE still did Flame Damage and wasn't changed to Poison until they added Noxious Breath and Venomous Claw in 2016.

All of that is now changed back to fire, the only real reason to use 2h on DK is to proc Unbalanced via D Swing.

So it's not clear to me exactly what the original design plan was before 2013, I gather it was supposed to be Flame Magic using Warrior, and it was only later decided to split it into a Flame Mage and a Warrior, with the Warrior dependent on Weapon Skills.

Which dependence meant the much stronger Delayed Burst Necro and Warden (the delayed Flames of Oblivion had hybrid scaling since around 2015/2016 i think) were able to make much better use of 2h skills, especially after the heavy nerf to DoT Damage in 2019.

Which provoked the StamWhip movement on this forum, leading to Whip getting the same Hybrid Scaling as Flames of Oblivion, and then - every other skill in the game getting it too.

So it seems that perhaps things now come full circle back to where they were originally intended. DK is a Fire Mage-Warrior. What will Warden be? Will any class become the All Poison, or All Physical, since DK no longer has those? Will Sorc retain its Physical?

I think Bard is the best fit for Physical, since sound is a physical phenomenon, this would also be the thematic counterpart of NB as a benevolent user of Illusion Magic, and given some external references, makes perfect sense as the class for the Pink Moon symbol in the Player Tracker thing, since the others all clearly match to a class.

I think it could have been possible that DK remained viable without the extreme burst it presently has, but only if the class had broken the rules for DoT Standardization in 2019. I believe Venomous Claw was the strongest single target DoT, aka sticky DoT, before that Standardization, but I could be wrong.

HarfnUA wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I think it could have been possible that DK remained viable without the extreme burst it presently has, but only if the class had broken the rules for DoT Standardization in 2019. I believe Venomous Claw was the strongest single target DoT, aka sticky DoT, before that Standardization, but I could be wrong.

I have always played a pure DK. And I am absolutely sure that the previous damage from Noxious Breath and Venomous Claws was useless in PvP. The numbers certainly looked huge, but in practice it was weak. With good gear, the damage from 2 DOT abilities was 40-45k over 24 seconds. But considering the enemy's resistances, this was already 20-22k over 24 seconds. And in fact, Vigor's heal could easily outheal this damage. So it turns out that you waste 2 slots on useless skills. There are many more useful skills. The only time DOT damage works is when you manage to drain the opponent's resources. Although DK has always been known for survivability, after the addition of subclasses with burst damage of 30k+ over 1-2 seconds, this advantage disappeared.

Now the new DK DOT abilities deal twice as much damage. Unfortunately, they are rarely used because everyone is currently playing with Corrosive + Whip. But I think in a couple of weeks, when everyone realises that this combination can be easily kited, we might see DK builds focusing on DOT damage.

Interesting, you felt that way before 2019? That year saw several rounds of adjustments to DoTs and HoTs that ended with HoTs being stronger than DoTs, a patch or two after the shocking, appalling, and brief Entropy Meta.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Interesting, you felt that way before 2019? That year saw several rounds of adjustments to DoTs and HoTs that ended with HoTs being stronger than DoTs, a patch or two after the shocking, appalling, and brief Entropy Meta.

Unfortunately, in 2019 I hadn't played yet. But at that time there were no subclasses. When I played before the era of subclasses, it was interesting. Different builds, including through DOT damage. For example, in patch 48 and earlier, you would just die faster than 24 seconds would pass (the duration of DK DoTs). Perhaps DoT damage wasn't bad back then either, but dying in 2-3 seconds from Charm + Incap + Shalks, there was no opportunity to understand how good that damage really was.

For years before 2021 however, StamDK was rated poorly as a PvE DD and often D or F tier in PvP by a number of commenters here. For a few years it was the single least popular class in PvP really, the years immediately after Warden came out, being the new DK, like Cro was the new Plar, and Arc the new Sorc.

And if you ask me, like Bard should be the new NB.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

ZOS should have released all the class refresh at once. Even if that means that we had to wait for summer next year.

Right now the classes will be seriously imbalanced and classes like nightblade and necro will be seriously underperforming because they will be refreshed last.

I still don’t understand why Necro is refreshed last. Four years that the players are asking for refresh and ZOS spits at our faces again by placing Necro last(excluding arcanist).

Necro has been dead for years. It's also my favorite class.

It makes zero sense to have it refreshed last but I don't have an issue with other classes having fun in the meantime.

Make another character or accept that it isn't going to change anytime soon. The choice is yours.

Necro's aren't dead, they're just extremely limited in what they do well. Tanks and Bombers. That is basically it, and there isn't much in between. The healer kit is interesting but too inconsistent to be considered a mainstay.

Necro should have been refreshed first or second at least. This class is the most destroyed class in the game and is a paid class.

They are charging us money for a class that we eventualy have to drop when getting into competitive gameplay. This class is a scam nowadays, and I don't understand why ZOS did not refresh it first despite the enourmous amount of requests for refresh.

Just had a solo DK following us around in Cyrodiil while we captured keeps. He was basically undamageable but then would suddenly pull out an AoE that hit for 20k in one shot. This isn't what I was expecting when they talked about reworking classes to make it so that subclassing wasn't necessary to compete. I didn't expect them to just make DKs OP for months at least. I expected them to make DKs on par with subclasses (i.e., not more powerful than subclasses) by mostly shifting around passives so you can't stack multiple DPS lines or multiple tank lines. If what we're seeing with DK is what their plan, though, I'm really disappointed.

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Just had a solo DK following us around in Cyrodiil while we captured keeps. He was basically undamageable but then would suddenly pull out an AoE that hit for 20k in one shot. This isn't what I was expecting when they talked about reworking classes to make it so that subclassing wasn't necessary to compete. I didn't expect them to just make DKs OP for months at least. I expected them to make DKs on par with subclasses (i.e., not more powerful than subclasses) by mostly shifting around passives so you can't stack multiple DPS lines or multiple tank lines. If what we're seeing with DK is what their plan, though, I'm really disappointed.

It’s partly because they Devs messed up … they didn’t make DK more powerful per se, they made certain DK skills more powerful, that’s not the same thing.

Players, including subclassed meta builds are slotting Flame Lash for its bonus damage skill conversion (Power Lash) combined with powerful heal.

Sure, DKs can slot the skill but so too can any ol subclassed Joe out there who wants to cherry pick skills. .. NB Surprise Attack, Wardens Cliff Racer, Temps Topple Charge all set enemies off balance upon use and all 3 were already overly popular subclass skills lines and all of those align right up to proc Flame Lash > Power Lash.

DK would have been elevated if the Devs had kept the Power Lash bonus conversion strictly for non-subclasses DKs, that would be a huge difference here. Not only did they not do that but they built the procs around a known popular subclassed status effect.

They took one of the key skills that was supposed to elevate DK and gave everyone a back door to use it against DKs and everyone else. This is the same sort of flawed thinking that saw Subclassing released the way it was.

I don’t disagree that some DK skills are over performing but it’s not specifically a DK class issue it’s a skill availability issue. It’s almost as if the Devs learned nothing from the subclassing debacle.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

they didn’t make DK more powerful per se, they made certain DK skills more powerful, that’s not the same thing.

They are the same thing, no matter how you try to spin it.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Players, including subclassed meta builds are slotting Flame Lash for its bonus damage skill conversion (Power Lash) combined with powerful heal.

Sure, DKs can slot the skill but so too can any ol subclassed Joe out there who wants to cherry pick skills. .. NB Surprise Attack, Wardens Cliff Racer, Temps Topple Charge all set enemies off balance upon use and all 3 were already overly popular subclass skills lines and all of those align right up to proc Flame Lash > Power Lash.

None of those will ever be as effective as a pure DK proccing Off-Balance off simple heavy attacks. ZOS did a great job making pure DK skills synergize between each other so effectively that subclassing would have been a downgrade.


I applaud ZOS for redesigning DK so well. They really did do a fantastic job for this class. While it's certainly very annoying to wait for a year for my turn (Sorc buffs), I am willing to play the long game if they keep the same energy moving forward with remaining classes.