nightbringer1993 wrote: »

ZOS should have released all the class refresh at once. Even if that means that we had to wait for summer next year.

Right now the classes will be seriously imbalanced and classes like nightblade and necro will be seriously underperforming because they will be refreshed last.

I still don’t understand why Necro is refreshed last. Four years that the players are asking for refresh and ZOS spits at our faces again by placing Necro last(excluding arcanist).

Necro has been dead for years. It's also my favorite class.

It makes zero sense to have it refreshed last but I don't have an issue with other classes having fun in the meantime.

Make another character or accept that it isn't going to change anytime soon. The choice is yours.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

There is one small relief I would be surprised if anybody opposed:

REMOVE THE FLAME DAMAGE TAKEN ON VAMPIRE

I was all about this during the last DK meta, I'm all about it again. This would give us all Undeath at its modest 10% rather than the OP 30% last time. Right now I assume all non Glass Cannon have dropped Vamp for this patch.

Players should take vampire for the abilities not the passives.

Vampires take extra Flame Damage to conform to the series lore and basic common sense.

Take the line if you want to play like a vampire not for the free stats. We lived that stupid life for way too long, most of vampire's entire existence. Originally, you took it for the free regen. Later, you took it for the free mitigation. No build decision should be free. The tiny increases to ability cost by themselves are not a high enough price for the power.

@YandereGirlfriend

Says who? Passives drive many choices, it's driven the DW meta for years, even before Hybridization remember lotsa MagDK and Melee MagBlades slotted Swords for the Damage Done passive. Good bad, up for debate, but it's the game we play.

The Stealth Passives enable playing like a Vampire and Undeath is back to where it was in the Beforetimes, a small bone thrown to Light Armor wearers (insert Skara Minoc's Mitigation graph). Unnatural Movement is a very "active" Passive I'd say, almost a skill effect.

The Ult is a strong crutch for 3x Offensive Line stacks, even if all the other skills besides the spammable are lacking right now. (and it's not a tremendously Vampiric skill that claw, imo)

Stealth play, crutch Ult for subclass demons that can stand up to Corrosive, take out the Flame Penalty and it would give some power back to Non DKs.

I think I always favor modifying Global Passives to address exigencies? Passives are easily modified it seems, just look at the history of Glacial Presence, a Passive which I suspect will soon get everyone's attention.

As for the lore no it's all slander! Dirty lies by the living. Free us of this penalty!

This sounds like you simply want the free goodies without having to actually pay for them.

Which is entirely par for the course for ESO vampirism. It is viewed by most as a mere stats pinata for effectively zero mechanical downside. Especially in this era of largely trivialized sustain.

No, if you want to be a vampire, then accept its conditions. It is not the skill line's job to worry about which class is the current flavor-of-the-month. Vampires have taken a malus to Flame Damage in literally every modern TES game. If anything, it should probably be higher than what it is to better conform to the lore.

If it doesn't make sense for your build then... it doesn't make sense for your build. Very simple. If you do want it... then adapt accordingly.

Bring back old Mist Form and Bat Swarm please. Then the passives are just that, a passive, cause i’d be a vamp for those skills.

SneaK wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

There is one small relief I would be surprised if anybody opposed:

REMOVE THE FLAME DAMAGE TAKEN ON VAMPIRE

I was all about this during the last DK meta, I'm all about it again. This would give us all Undeath at its modest 10% rather than the OP 30% last time. Right now I assume all non Glass Cannon have dropped Vamp for this patch.

Players should take vampire for the abilities not the passives.

Vampires take extra Flame Damage to conform to the series lore and basic common sense.

Take the line if you want to play like a vampire not for the free stats. We lived that stupid life for way too long, most of vampire's entire existence. Originally, you took it for the free regen. Later, you took it for the free mitigation. No build decision should be free. The tiny increases to ability cost by themselves are not a high enough price for the power.

@YandereGirlfriend

Says who? Passives drive many choices, it's driven the DW meta for years, even before Hybridization remember lotsa MagDK and Melee MagBlades slotted Swords for the Damage Done passive. Good bad, up for debate, but it's the game we play.

The Stealth Passives enable playing like a Vampire and Undeath is back to where it was in the Beforetimes, a small bone thrown to Light Armor wearers (insert Skara Minoc's Mitigation graph). Unnatural Movement is a very "active" Passive I'd say, almost a skill effect.

The Ult is a strong crutch for 3x Offensive Line stacks, even if all the other skills besides the spammable are lacking right now. (and it's not a tremendously Vampiric skill that claw, imo)

Stealth play, crutch Ult for subclass demons that can stand up to Corrosive, take out the Flame Penalty and it would give some power back to Non DKs.

I think I always favor modifying Global Passives to address exigencies? Passives are easily modified it seems, just look at the history of Glacial Presence, a Passive which I suspect will soon get everyone's attention.

As for the lore no it's all slander! Dirty lies by the living. Free us of this penalty!

This sounds like you simply want the free goodies without having to actually pay for them.

Which is entirely par for the course for ESO vampirism. It is viewed by most as a mere stats pinata for effectively zero mechanical downside. Especially in this era of largely trivialized sustain.

No, if you want to be a vampire, then accept its conditions. It is not the skill line's job to worry about which class is the current flavor-of-the-month. Vampires have taken a malus to Flame Damage in literally every modern TES game. If anything, it should probably be higher than what it is to better conform to the lore.

If it doesn't make sense for your build then... it doesn't make sense for your build. Very simple. If you do want it... then adapt accordingly.

Bring back old Mist Form and Bat Swarm please. Then the passives are just that, a passive, cause i’d be a vamp for those skills.

All they have to do is keep swarming scion as the transformation form, and turn the other morph which has zero practical use into devouring batswarm. But this will never be done, unless we can get the entire population to pitchfork for it I guess. Idk if people are prepared for dk to be that back though. Maybe when the refreshes are done, people could cope with it.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

There is one small relief I would be surprised if anybody opposed:

REMOVE THE FLAME DAMAGE TAKEN ON VAMPIRE

I was all about this during the last DK meta, I'm all about it again. This would give us all Undeath at its modest 10% rather than the OP 30% last time. Right now I assume all non Glass Cannon have dropped Vamp for this patch.

Players should take vampire for the abilities not the passives.

Vampires take extra Flame Damage to conform to the series lore and basic common sense.

Take the line if you want to play like a vampire not for the free stats. We lived that stupid life for way too long, most of vampire's entire existence. Originally, you took it for the free regen. Later, you took it for the free mitigation. No build decision should be free. The tiny increases to ability cost by themselves are not a high enough price for the power.

@YandereGirlfriend

Says who? Passives drive many choices, it's driven the DW meta for years, even before Hybridization remember lotsa MagDK and Melee MagBlades slotted Swords for the Damage Done passive. Good bad, up for debate, but it's the game we play.

The Stealth Passives enable playing like a Vampire and Undeath is back to where it was in the Beforetimes, a small bone thrown to Light Armor wearers (insert Skara Minoc's Mitigation graph). Unnatural Movement is a very "active" Passive I'd say, almost a skill effect.

The Ult is a strong crutch for 3x Offensive Line stacks, even if all the other skills besides the spammable are lacking right now. (and it's not a tremendously Vampiric skill that claw, imo)

Stealth play, crutch Ult for subclass demons that can stand up to Corrosive, take out the Flame Penalty and it would give some power back to Non DKs.

I think I always favor modifying Global Passives to address exigencies? Passives are easily modified it seems, just look at the history of Glacial Presence, a Passive which I suspect will soon get everyone's attention.

As for the lore no it's all slander! Dirty lies by the living. Free us of this penalty!

This sounds like you simply want the free goodies without having to actually pay for them.

Which is entirely par for the course for ESO vampirism. It is viewed by most as a mere stats pinata for effectively zero mechanical downside. Especially in this era of largely trivialized sustain.

No, if you want to be a vampire, then accept its conditions. It is not the skill line's job to worry about which class is the current flavor-of-the-month. Vampires have taken a malus to Flame Damage in literally every modern TES game. If anything, it should probably be higher than what it is to better conform to the lore.

If it doesn't make sense for your build then... it doesn't make sense for your build. Very simple. If you do want it... then adapt accordingly.

Yeah I'm saying they could adapt the whole game to relieve us of a InstaWhip meta for the next 3 months by turning the debuff off.

But of course I want it for free, I'm spoiled not having had to fight many DKs for months.

It’s great

Tanks are dying a lot easier

The damage is creating actual good PVP with less stalemates

There is a lot of DKs of course (shiny new toy), but still other effective setups

If they are bringing all classes up to this level, PVP is going to rock and have some great variety

Well done ZOS

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

This is relevant because pure DK looks cooler with a 2H.

I remain convinced the original Molten Armaments Heavy Attack buff was supposed to synergize with 2h's Follow Up and Heavy Armor's Revitalize. Maybe it was a delusion of mine, I didn't play during Beta, it's still a bit murky to me whether StamDK was "supposed" to exist? Or if it was retrofitted to fill the tanky Warrior slot.

Somebody else recently pointed out the On Kill passive is a big weak point for 2h in PvP.

The original molten armaments and before all the heavy attack buff changes relegating it to just a pve thing; DK had a niche of achieving "one-shots" with inferno staff heavy attacks.(15 - 25k crits) No dk ever used it for any other heavy attack for any serious method in pvp, other than lightning heavy attack builds which dk for its time also excelled in rather ironically instead of say: a sorcerer.

That said, you could use it on a melee for some added burst and I'm sure their were dks that did that. But what I'm referencing is the more outlier niche use of -solely- heavy attacking and being lethal and effective with it alone.

As for stamdk "supposing" to exist, it certainly did. But it was a more advanced playstyle, magicka in general for all classes was more favorable and easier to play.

That one shot Heavy was only after Hybridization gave mDK Corrosive yeah? Yeah I was talking about how I think the original Molten Heavy Buff was designed to synergize with 2h and Heavy Armor. The reality was the old Forward Momentum with HoT was the go to for Weapond based DK well until its extinction by Hybrid Whip, in fact that skill was blamed for carrying Heavy Armor Stam during one of its stronger times. (and appropriately)

What I'm getting it is this not clearly a Mage / not clearly a Warrior Hybrid Class the original idea before release, and the split into mDK Mage and sDK Warrior a later change?

I'm aware this is all extremely tangential to the OP 😂

No it had already been changed by then. This was way back in the 2015 - 2018 era of the game.

Yes I remember in 2015 the class kit had Physical Damage in Take Flight, and Physical Penetration in Corrosive, but the Corrosive AoE still did Flame Damage and wasn't changed to Poison until they added Noxious Breath and Venomous Claw in 2016.

All of that is now changed back to fire, the only real reason to use 2h on DK is to proc Unbalanced via D Swing.

So it's not clear to me exactly what the original design plan was before 2013, I gather it was supposed to be Flame Magic using Warrior, and it was only later decided to split it into a Flame Mage and a Warrior, with the Warrior dependent on Weapon Skills.

Which dependence meant the much stronger Delayed Burst Necro and Warden (the delayed Flames of Oblivion had hybrid scaling since around 2015/2016 i think) were able to make much better use of 2h skills, especially after the heavy nerf to DoT Damage in 2019.

Which provoked the StamWhip movement on this forum, leading to Whip getting the same Hybrid Scaling as Flames of Oblivion, and then - every other skill in the game getting it too.

So it seems that perhaps things now come full circle back to where they were originally intended. DK is a Fire Mage-Warrior. What will Warden be? Will any class become the All Poison, or All Physical, since DK no longer has those? Will Sorc retain its Physical?

I think Bard is the best fit for Physical, since sound is a physical phenomenon, this would also be the thematic counterpart of NB as a benevolent user of Illusion Magic, and given some external references, makes perfect sense as the class for the Pink Moon symbol in the Player Tracker thing, since the others all clearly match to a class.

I think it could have been possible that DK remained viable without the extreme burst it presently has, but only if the class had broken the rules for DoT Standardization in 2019. I believe Venomous Claw was the strongest single target DoT, aka sticky DoT, before that Standardization, but I could be wrong.

HarfnUA wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I think it could have been possible that DK remained viable without the extreme burst it presently has, but only if the class had broken the rules for DoT Standardization in 2019. I believe Venomous Claw was the strongest single target DoT, aka sticky DoT, before that Standardization, but I could be wrong.

I have always played a pure DK. And I am absolutely sure that the previous damage from Noxious Breath and Venomous Claws was useless in PvP. The numbers certainly looked huge, but in practice it was weak. With good gear, the damage from 2 DOT abilities was 40-45k over 24 seconds. But considering the enemy's resistances, this was already 20-22k over 24 seconds. And in fact, Vigor's heal could easily outheal this damage. So it turns out that you waste 2 slots on useless skills. There are many more useful skills. The only time DOT damage works is when you manage to drain the opponent's resources. Although DK has always been known for survivability, after the addition of subclasses with burst damage of 30k+ over 1-2 seconds, this advantage disappeared.

Now the new DK DOT abilities deal twice as much damage. Unfortunately, they are rarely used because everyone is currently playing with Corrosive + Whip. But I think in a couple of weeks, when everyone realises that this combination can be easily kited, we might see DK builds focusing on DOT damage.

Interesting, you felt that way before 2019? That year saw several rounds of adjustments to DoTs and HoTs that ended with HoTs being stronger than DoTs, a patch or two after the shocking, appalling, and brief Entropy Meta.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Interesting, you felt that way before 2019? That year saw several rounds of adjustments to DoTs and HoTs that ended with HoTs being stronger than DoTs, a patch or two after the shocking, appalling, and brief Entropy Meta.

Unfortunately, in 2019 I hadn't played yet. But at that time there were no subclasses. When I played before the era of subclasses, it was interesting. Different builds, including through DOT damage. For example, in patch 48 and earlier, you would just die faster than 24 seconds would pass (the duration of DK DoTs). Perhaps DoT damage wasn't bad back then either, but dying in 2-3 seconds from Charm + Incap + Shalks, there was no opportunity to understand how good that damage really was.

For years before 2021 however, StamDK was rated poorly as a PvE DD and often D or F tier in PvP by a number of commenters here. For a few years it was the single least popular class in PvP really, the years immediately after Warden came out, being the new DK, like Cro was the new Plar, and Arc the new Sorc.

And if you ask me, like Bard should be the new NB.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

ZOS should have released all the class refresh at once. Even if that means that we had to wait for summer next year.

Right now the classes will be seriously imbalanced and classes like nightblade and necro will be seriously underperforming because they will be refreshed last.

I still don’t understand why Necro is refreshed last. Four years that the players are asking for refresh and ZOS spits at our faces again by placing Necro last(excluding arcanist).

Necro has been dead for years. It's also my favorite class.

It makes zero sense to have it refreshed last but I don't have an issue with other classes having fun in the meantime.

Make another character or accept that it isn't going to change anytime soon. The choice is yours.

Necro's aren't dead, they're just extremely limited in what they do well. Tanks and Bombers. That is basically it, and there isn't much in between. The healer kit is interesting but too inconsistent to be considered a mainstay.

Necro should have been refreshed first or second at least. This class is the most destroyed class in the game and is a paid class.

They are charging us money for a class that we eventualy have to drop when getting into competitive gameplay. This class is a scam nowadays, and I don't understand why ZOS did not refresh it first despite the enourmous amount of requests for refresh.

Just had a solo DK following us around in Cyrodiil while we captured keeps. He was basically undamageable but then would suddenly pull out an AoE that hit for 20k in one shot. This isn't what I was expecting when they talked about reworking classes to make it so that subclassing wasn't necessary to compete. I didn't expect them to just make DKs OP for months at least. I expected them to make DKs on par with subclasses (i.e., not more powerful than subclasses) by mostly shifting around passives so you can't stack multiple DPS lines or multiple tank lines. If what we're seeing with DK is what their plan, though, I'm really disappointed.

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Just had a solo DK following us around in Cyrodiil while we captured keeps. He was basically undamageable but then would suddenly pull out an AoE that hit for 20k in one shot. This isn't what I was expecting when they talked about reworking classes to make it so that subclassing wasn't necessary to compete. I didn't expect them to just make DKs OP for months at least. I expected them to make DKs on par with subclasses (i.e., not more powerful than subclasses) by mostly shifting around passives so you can't stack multiple DPS lines or multiple tank lines. If what we're seeing with DK is what their plan, though, I'm really disappointed.

It’s partly because they Devs messed up … they didn’t make DK more powerful per se, they made certain DK skills more powerful, that’s not the same thing.

Players, including subclassed meta builds are slotting Flame Lash for its bonus damage skill conversion (Power Lash) combined with powerful heal.

Sure, DKs can slot the skill but so too can any ol subclassed Joe out there who wants to cherry pick skills. .. NB Surprise Attack, Wardens Cliff Racer, Temps Topple Charge all set enemies off balance upon use and all 3 were already overly popular subclass skills lines and all of those align right up to proc Flame Lash > Power Lash.

DK would have been elevated if the Devs had kept the Power Lash bonus conversion strictly for non-subclasses DKs, that would be a huge difference here. Not only did they not do that but they built the procs around a known popular subclassed status effect.

They took one of the key skills that was supposed to elevate DK and gave everyone a back door to use it against DKs and everyone else. This is the same sort of flawed thinking that saw Subclassing released the way it was.

I don’t disagree that some DK skills are over performing but it’s not specifically a DK class issue it’s a skill availability issue. It’s almost as if the Devs learned nothing from the subclassing debacle.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

they didn’t make DK more powerful per se, they made certain DK skills more powerful, that’s not the same thing.

They are the same thing, no matter how you try to spin it.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Players, including subclassed meta builds are slotting Flame Lash for its bonus damage skill conversion (Power Lash) combined with powerful heal.

Sure, DKs can slot the skill but so too can any ol subclassed Joe out there who wants to cherry pick skills. .. NB Surprise Attack, Wardens Cliff Racer, Temps Topple Charge all set enemies off balance upon use and all 3 were already overly popular subclass skills lines and all of those align right up to proc Flame Lash > Power Lash.

None of those will ever be as effective as a pure DK proccing Off-Balance off simple heavy attacks. ZOS did a great job making pure DK skills synergize between each other so effectively that subclassing would have been a downgrade.


I applaud ZOS for redesigning DK so well. They really did do a fantastic job for this class. While it's certainly very annoying to wait for a year for my turn (Sorc buffs), I am willing to play the long game if they keep the same energy moving forward with remaining classes.

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Just had a solo DK following us around in Cyrodiil while we captured keeps. He was basically undamageable but then would suddenly pull out an AoE that hit for 20k in one shot. This isn't what I was expecting when they talked about reworking classes to make it so that subclassing wasn't necessary to compete. I didn't expect them to just make DKs OP for months at least. I expected them to make DKs on par with subclasses (i.e., not more powerful than subclasses) by mostly shifting around passives so you can't stack multiple DPS lines or multiple tank lines. If what we're seeing with DK is what their plan, though, I'm really disappointed.

It’s partly because they Devs messed up … they didn’t make DK more powerful per se, they made certain DK skills more powerful, that’s not the same thing.

Players, including subclassed meta builds are slotting Flame Lash for its bonus damage skill conversion (Power Lash) combined with powerful heal.

Sure, DKs can slot the skill but so too can any ol subclassed Joe out there who wants to cherry pick skills. .. NB Surprise Attack, Wardens Cliff Racer, Temps Topple Charge all set enemies off balance upon use and all 3 were already overly popular subclass skills lines and all of those align right up to proc Flame Lash > Power Lash.

DK would have been elevated if the Devs had kept the Power Lash bonus conversion strictly for non-subclasses DKs, that would be a huge difference here. Not only did they not do that but they built the procs around a known popular subclassed status effect.

They took one of the key skills that was supposed to elevate DK and gave everyone a back door to use it against DKs and everyone else. This is the same sort of flawed thinking that saw Subclassing released the way it was.

I don’t disagree that some DK skills are over performing but it’s not specifically a DK class issue it’s a skill availability issue. It’s almost as if the Devs learned nothing from the subclassing debacle.

I don't see this as a problem... if anything, it'd make the experience quite miserable if you couldn't subclass into DK lines until more classes are reworked.

At the moment pure DK is extremely strong (and you can build it around various playstyles) and other classes are able to compete since they can subclass into Ardent or Draconic (or Earthen Heart, though I feel that's a lot less common) rather than being forced into the somewhat weaker Animal Companions Assassination Storm Calling/Restoring Light that we were stuck with for almost a year or so.


Once more classes' skills are reworked to be as fun as the Dragonknight ones are it'll make a lot more sense, just treat U49 as "Season of the Dragonknight".

I didn’t say that players couldn’t or shouldn’t subclass into DK skills, what I’m saying is that if players DO subclass into a DK line that the bonus portion of the skill would not be available, only the base skill and the base skill morphs.

Remember, part of the idea was to elevate DK, as a class, to be competitive, not just the skills.

And no, elevating a DK skills is NOT the same thing as elevating a DK. .. DK is a brawler class that has certain limitations. DKs aren’t highly mobile characters and kiting is part of a counterplay strategy. So a pure DK slotting and procing the bonus of Power Lash is not the same thing as a subclassed build slotting Power Lash that’s also running Streak or Falcons Swiftness.

Further, I do agree that DK synergizes well within their own skills but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other options that don’t provide benefits. A DK can heavy attack to achieve off balance but a subclassed build could also achieve the Off Balance status effect at range with Cliff Racer which introduces a lot more versatility. Subsequently Surprise Attack can apply Off Balance while scaling to much higher damage than a basic heavy attack.

With versatility comes potential increases in power and usage which is exactly what happened with subclassing.

If everyone can use some of DKs most powerful skills then DK, themselves, aren’t necessarily elevated.

I can’t speak for PC but what many of us on XB NA are seeing is a revert back to subclass metas which are choosing to cherry pick Flame Lash, in particular, for the Power Lash conversion; pairing this skill with other mechanics which the DK class doesn’t have.

This only reinforces the problems Subclassing introduced. I’m ok with DK being a powerful class because the idea is to make base classes more powerful but in the current state it is absolutely possible and easy to make a subclassed build, that when properly played, out powers a base DK. .. and that makes sense because any base class is going to have inherent limitations to their mechanics and scope, that’s balance. Subclassing kills that balance.

I mean... you can't really "elevate" a class without buffing their abilities, and I think ZOS did a good job at that while still allowing other classes to compete by utilizing the buffed DK abilities.

I don't think the plan ever was "you should only be able to compete on a pure DK until all reworks are done", that'd be silly.

Subclass builds can be very strong currently, but to me it seems like pure DK is pretty much the meta anywhere in PvP since each skill line has multiple very strong abilities and passives that synergize with each other. Again, no problems detected.

Quick Tier List if I was to make one: pure DK->Sorc DK->Warden DK->Templar DK->Nightblade DK->Necro DK->Arca DK


U50 will also introduce Class Mastery passives & disencourage using DK skill lines on other classes, too early to say how that'll look like balance wise but PTS should be interesting to say the least.

True, you can’t elevate a class without buffing their abilities but that doesn’t also mean that you need to also empower or buff subclass builds as well.

Subclass builds were already over performing in both PvE & PvP, to the point where the concept of a base class was next to useless in terms of competitiveness. The Devs admitted as such.

By that logic, the goal is (or should be) to elevate each class by way of their refresh so that any pure class who wishes to run as just a pure class can be competitive with subclasses builds.

Subclasses builds were already powerful enough. They don’t also need access to some of the benefits of the class refreshes. If we adopt that logic then even at the end of the class refreshes we will never have any pure class that’s ever competitive with subclasses builds, they will always trail behind because subclassed builds can better ignore the concept of risk vs reward combat balance that is build into each base class.

As for meta, from a solely pure class standpoint DK is by far the strongest. As for in-game meta, no, I wouldn’t agree. In PvE a subclassed Arcanist is still running the logs and in PvP Crit is still king so your meta builds are still going to be Crit focused. DKs aren’t inherently a Crit class and don’t carry high mobility so while they’re very strong I don’t see them as quite the “meta”. .. I will say that the current meta would now include Ardent Flame now, but is still a subclassed build.

The meta is more along the lines of a combination of NB > (either Templar or Warden) > Ardent Flame in PvP and in PvE you’re looking at Arcanist > Sorc > Templar.

Yes, U50 will bring the Class Passives, which help, but they’re not bringing the kind of raw power that we saw from the DK refresh. While we still don’t know final values on the Passives we saw an insight into the Devs direction and they’re clearly a supplement to the class and, as per the Devs, intended to help fill some gaps during the Class refresh process.

If the goal is ever to enable non-subclassed build choices to ever be competitive with subclassed builds then there will have to be certain restrictions on what can and cannot be subclassed. Otherwise there’s zero way to enable a power differential between a pure class and a subclassed build; especially when you account for the degree of mechanical combinations subclassing enabled.