Maintenance for the week of March 23:
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• PC/Mac: No maintenance – March 23
Probably the most unfun patch for PvP if you’re not playing DK
-
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?
And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?
My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.
It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.
Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).
I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao
Pretty sure we’re about to see a lot of Subcrutched Gigachads learn they are in fact not so much better than Unknown Twenty Patches Ago Timmy.
"IMO"Aldmeri Dominion1 Nightblade - 1 Templar - 7 Hybrid Mutt Abominations4 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?
And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?
My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.
It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.
Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).
I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao
Pretty sure we’re about to see a lot of Subcrutched Gigachads learn they are in fact not so much better than Unknown Twenty Patches Ago Timmy.
But the Subcrutched Gigachads will get on a DK, then Unknown Timmies get put back in their place. Rinse repeat. Then maybe Unknown Timmies will finally learn to play2 -
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?
And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?
My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.
It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.
Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).
I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao
Pretty sure we’re about to see a lot of Subcrutched Gigachads learn they are in fact not so much better than Unknown Twenty Patches Ago Timmy.
But the Subcrutched Gigachads will get on a DK, then Unknown Timmies get put back in their place. Rinse repeat. Then maybe Unknown Timmies will finally learn to play
Then a Warden, then a Sorc, etc etc etc
But when Warden refresh drops the hope is that it’s even with DK’s refresh but with its own uniqueness, not making all the DK mains feel like they have to play Warden. Same when Sorc drops. That’s the point.
Subclassing was the opposite, “here’s everything you could ever want, but btw these three/four skill lines are way above any combo you’ll ever dream of, have fun.”"IMO"Aldmeri Dominion1 Nightblade - 1 Templar - 7 Hybrid Mutt Abominations6 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
"Random". You can attempt to downplay the significance with authority bias all you want, but this is a healthy sign for the game. Players actually dieing while on a "hyper-specialized meta build." If the class refreshes plays a part in lessening the gap between meta and non-meta, then this is a substantially healthy change for the overall balance of the game. I'm definitely letting it sink in that dk is so back that with a "wasted" 5pc they can unoptimizingly secure kills. When all classes can accomplish this, it might feel very vaguely like the old times when optimized builds set players apart, but skill still determined more in terms of overall victories. Bring back player vs player instead of stats vs stats.9 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?
And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?
My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.
It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.
Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).
I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao
Pretty sure we’re about to see a lot of Subcrutched Gigachads learn they are in fact not so much better than Unknown Twenty Patches Ago Timmy.
This is the same vibe I'm getting from this. If all the classes meet this threshold with the refreshes, this might lessen the gap between meta and non-meta. I'm so tired of "meta" dictating everything in this game. It was old over 5 years ago already with the continuous release of problematic sets and fundamental changes like "hybridization".2 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭
I assume you know what Resolving Vigor is? … it’s a self heal that has a sub 3k stam cost and can, easily, scale into the mid to high 20k range and provides minor protection for 20 seconds.
Most healing skills were cost adjusted in previous updates but Resolving Vigor is one of the few exceptions, and runs off Stam rather than Mag.
On a meta crit build this skill will yield self HoT ticks in the 4k to 5k range in PvP which mitigates a lot of incoming damage.
Most meta builds run Contingency or Soul Burst, some will run Wardens Seed as that’s also a cost exception in healing but a handfull will run Vigor as their HoT as it will give one of the best per tick rates out there and that leaves them free to scribe Warriors on Contingency to cut incoming damage by an additional 8%.
The "HUH?" is for your comment saying that "Resolving Vigor isn't the top choice in PvP".
It’s not. It’s a choice, and a solid one but it’s not the top because it’s only a HoT and not a burst.
Any proper PvP build is slotting a strong burst as their primary heal, which, is why I cited Contingency & Soul Burst as the top two as they’re scribed and bring more passive benefits than any base skill heal. Beyond the scribes we see Honor as another go-to burst in the meta.
Vigor is absolutely used in PvP but any HoT are a secondary method of damage mitigation, not your main. Your hard hitting burst is what drives your top choice.
NB / Warden / Templar are still the top combo in PvP bringing crit, healing, damage, and more importantly, sustain & cleansing.
Thats not the only popular build in PvP but if we’re talking to go-to choices for top output that’s what I’m still seeing out there; even with the uptick in DK skill lines being tried.
You do realize that Vigor is always top #1 heal value on any build in a real fight right? I'm just curious, do you have CMX at all?
I'm XB NA, CMX isn't available. I do have a PC NA but that's not my primary I only use that for solo PTS.
I thought CMX though showed you your combat output and input metrics? CMX won't show your opponents gear and / or skills used, or at least I never knew it to do that. It might show you an opponents total numbers but not how they got those numbers. Did that change?
Vigor it a bit of a mix case. In the combat I see Vigor having an consistent uptime but I also see burst healing consistently.
Whether Vigor yields more total healing versus a players burst will depend on whether or not they're running with a squad vs randoms, whether their squad or team has a dedicated healer, and whether or not MMR has them pit against equitable players. I don't regular PC NA but on XB NA the consistency among the hardest hitting meta builds are the bursts followed by the HoT, such as Vigor.
A lot of PvP on XB NA (especially IC & BGs) lack consistent dedicated healers so your top end builds definitely do run their HoT but lean a lot on their bursts in their rotations because you often find yourself up against hard hitting builds and don't have the dedicated healing component so HoT simply isn't enough, the bursts are hitting constantly and are what's keeping you alive. The HoTs are mitigating stacks and DoTs coming in. On XB NA, I see much more Burst > HoT, especially in BG match recaps.
CMX won’t directly reveal an opponent’s gear, but if they are using a proc set CMX can record it through the damage taken section. Things like Pyrebrand, Null Arca, or even Mech Acuity will show up there.
Anyways, Vigor is always top #1 healing-per-second value on any build. The only other heal I’ve seen outperform Vigor is Crit Surge, and that still requires very high uptime. Your main heal should always be Vigor, then burst heal when you’re low health. Even Vigor can be used as a burst heal if you cast it right before it ticks (double tick effect).
Healing per second, yes, I agree, Vigor is untouchable; and I said that as much posts ago. .. But the highest heal per tick doesn't necessarily mean that's going to yield the highest amount of total healing.
I know players do stack Vigor ticks but even still; when you have 4 to 5 out of 8 players on a team spamming rotations of Merciless, Fissure, Surprise, Whirling, Comet, Colossus, Incap., Thrive, etc no HoT, including Vigor, is enough to offset how high those bursts scale.
Again, if you have a dedicated healing role, sure, Vigor is enough; but when you don't, even the 4k to 5k per tick of Vigor isn't going to save you from 18k to 20k Merciless hits or persistent Fissures.
Vigor is not supposed to save you from 18k-20k Merciless hits. Not even a burst heal can help you if you eat a 20k Merciless to the face and die before you get to cast a GCD. Only blocking, dodging or stacking mitigation can let you mitigate that kind of damage.
The main purpose of Vigor is to be a cheap main heal when you're above 50-60% HP, and a supplementary one to your burst heal when you're below 50% HP, that's it. It's not supposed to be stronger than Healing Soul or Healthy Offering when you're below 50% HP, as that would defeat the purpose of those abilities in the first place.
A proper build with 2 strong HoTs such as Vigor and Crit Surge allows you to mitigate at least ~3k DPS. That is a lot of survivability with only 2 HoTs. Since these heals are so cheap and easily layered, you can save resources (because burst heals are expensive) and free up GCDs to cast other skills. That is also why HoT stacking is so effective in ball groups because they have at least 5 HoTs rolling at any given time, making it very hard for people to drop them below 50% HP.
So yes, I said "HUH" because your statement that Vigor isn't a top pick is flat out wrong. It is the best self-HoT in the game for all builds.
If we're talking ball groups, perhaps, one can run 2 HoT and be fine. In a ball group one has support and (likely) a dedicated healer. But not all PvP is ball groups, in fact, A LOT isn't. In BGs and the IC players are often solo or in randomized which is vastly different.
In non ball group scenarios I see builds bring more versatility to the table because of the lack of group support.
I agree, Vigor is a cheap HoT, and I never said that it should be stronger than a burst heal. What I'm saying is that in the current state of PvP burst heals are a higher priority than HoT. .. yes HoT are an essential part of any build and I've said Vigor is one of them. Now I will qualify that I'm speaking specifically in a non-ball group or non coordinated group context.
Maybe if someone is playing mostly ball group content just HoT stacking works and that makes sense. But when a player isn't in a focused group that's not going to cut it and not everyone is in a ball group in PvP.
0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?
And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?
My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.
It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.
Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).
I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao
Pretty sure we’re about to see a lot of Subcrutched Gigachads learn they are in fact not so much better than Unknown Twenty Patches Ago Timmy.
This is the same vibe I'm getting from this. If all the classes meet this threshold with the refreshes, this might lessen the gap between meta and non-meta. I'm so tired of "meta" dictating everything in this game. It was old over 5 years ago already with the continuous release of problematic sets and fundamental changes like "hybridization".
This .. 100% .. And I agree this was supposed to be the point. I think we'll be in an even slightly better spot (class wise) when the Class Mastery passives drop in a few months.
Expect to see a lot of comments after the Warden refresh and the subclassing meta potentially loses a lot of the utility they lean on.1 -
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?
And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?
My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.
It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.
Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).
I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao
Pretty sure we’re about to see a lot of Subcrutched Gigachads learn they are in fact not so much better than Unknown Twenty Patches Ago Timmy.
This is the same vibe I'm getting from this. If all the classes meet this threshold with the refreshes, this might lessen the gap between meta and non-meta. I'm so tired of "meta" dictating everything in this game. It was old over 5 years ago already with the continuous release of problematic sets and fundamental changes like "hybridization".
Exactly, in the scenario he/she just posted, Timmy is on a specific build, if power lash isn’t proc’d and/or Corrosive isn’t active they aren’t doing that much output. Which IS REFRESHING cause it’s about mechanics not stats or sets. It’s literally what they intended with the DK refresh, sounds like Timmy built his Ulti and timed it with a proc’d Power Lash (see *attrition)."IMO"Aldmeri Dominion1 Nightblade - 1 Templar - 7 Hybrid Mutt Abominations1 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
✭So DK isn't forced into specific sets, and random DKs can compete with sweatlords?
Sounds like a big improvement over the previous garbage meta. If this is the new standard then I have reason to be optimistic for Warden and Sorc, though I do think it's reasonable to question the sustain standard being set by Core of Flame (previously Inhale).PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP5 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I’m certainly not a theorycrafter, but the thought of both reworked DKs and reworked Wardens dominating Cyrodiil while the other classes have to wait is depressing.
I hope the rest of us and Cyrodiil itself can survive this.
Khajiit Stamblade main
Dark Elf Magsorc
Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
Dark Elf Necromancer
Dark Elf Magden
Khajiit Stamblade
Khajiit Stamina Arcanist
PS5 NA2 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?
And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?
My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.
It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.
Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).
I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao
Pretty sure we’re about to see a lot of Subcrutched Gigachads learn they are in fact not so much better than Unknown Twenty Patches Ago Timmy.
But the Subcrutched Gigachads will get on a DK, then Unknown Timmies get put back in their place. Rinse repeat. Then maybe Unknown Timmies will finally learn to play
Then a Warden, then a Sorc, etc etc etc
But when Warden refresh drops the hope is that it’s even with DK’s refresh but with its own uniqueness, not making all the DK mains feel like they have to play Warden. Same when Sorc drops. That’s the point.
Subclassing was the opposite, “here’s everything you could ever want, but btw these three/four skill lines are way above any combo you’ll ever dream of, have fun.”
Then you could have just said that, but ínstead you misinterpreted my screenshots and downplayed DK’s strength. This is exactly the problem I’m talking about. There is a difference between saying “we need to wait until all classes are reworked” and “DK isn’t that strong”. Your responses have been implying the 2nd one.1 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
"Random". You can attempt to downplay the significance with authority bias all you want, but this is a healthy sign for the game. Players actually dieing while on a "hyper-specialized meta build." If the class refreshes plays a part in lessening the gap between meta and non-meta, then this is a substantially healthy change for the overall balance of the game. I'm definitely letting it sink in that dk is so back that with a "wasted" 5pc they can unoptimizingly secure kills. When all classes can accomplish this, it might feel very vaguely like the old times when optimized builds set players apart, but skill still determined more in terms of overall victories. Bring back player vs player instead of stats vs stats.Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?
And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?
My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.
It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.
Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).
I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao
Pretty sure we’re about to see a lot of Subcrutched Gigachads learn they are in fact not so much better than Unknown Twenty Patches Ago Timmy.
This is the same vibe I'm getting from this. If all the classes meet this threshold with the refreshes, this might lessen the gap between meta and non-meta. I'm so tired of "meta" dictating everything in this game. It was old over 5 years ago already with the continuous release of problematic sets and fundamental changes like "hybridization".
Okay so you’re essentially saying:
1) It’s ok for a class to be so powerful that it can run a bomb set and still have enough damage to fight anything but a pure duel build
2) It’s ok to raise the floor so much that a player who’s clearly less skilled can just easily kill another by mashing a simple combo.
Let’s throw out balance all together then. I hope you aren’t here complaining when other classes get buffed and end up stronger than DK.1 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭So DK isn't forced into specific sets, and random DKs can compete with sweatlords?
Sounds like a big improvement over the previous garbage meta. If this is the new standard then I have reason to be optimistic for Warden and Sorc, though I do think it's reasonable to question the sustain standard being set by Core of Flame (previously Inhale).
So randoms couldn’t compete with sweatlords back in subclassing patch? If subclassing was that problematic for the game, why couldn’t randoms do that?0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Last patch, I was playing pure DK running 40k armor, 30k health, and still getting nuked by a number of players.
If pure DK can nuke players now with any regularity, I don't really care. PvP will be unhealthy either way because it's not like the any toxic high damage, mobility, sustain, and survivability enablers from last patch were changed.
PvP is such an inconsistant experience with so little on the line that I'm surprised that people care about what classes ate doing the nuking rather than the specific enablers of toxic play.Rest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.0 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
"Random". You can attempt to downplay the significance with authority bias all you want, but this is a healthy sign for the game. Players actually dieing while on a "hyper-specialized meta build." If the class refreshes plays a part in lessening the gap between meta and non-meta, then this is a substantially healthy change for the overall balance of the game. I'm definitely letting it sink in that dk is so back that with a "wasted" 5pc they can unoptimizingly secure kills. When all classes can accomplish this, it might feel very vaguely like the old times when optimized builds set players apart, but skill still determined more in terms of overall victories. Bring back player vs player instead of stats vs stats.Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?
And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?
My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.
It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.
Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).
I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao
Pretty sure we’re about to see a lot of Subcrutched Gigachads learn they are in fact not so much better than Unknown Twenty Patches Ago Timmy.
This is the same vibe I'm getting from this. If all the classes meet this threshold with the refreshes, this might lessen the gap between meta and non-meta. I'm so tired of "meta" dictating everything in this game. It was old over 5 years ago already with the continuous release of problematic sets and fundamental changes like "hybridization".
Okay so you’re essentially saying:
1) It’s ok for a class to be so powerful that it can run a bomb set and still have enough damage to fight anything but a pure duel build
2) It’s ok to raise the floor so much that a player who’s clearly less skilled can just easily kill another by mashing a simple combo.
Let’s throw out balance all together then. I hope you aren’t here complaining when other classes get buffed and end up stronger than DK.
1.) Yes. Power should be sourced from abilities primarily. In the last 8ish years it has been a gradual shift into sets more and more adding raw power(primarily procs). DK has a few tweaks and suddenly skills that hit like a wet noodle last month for the last whatever amount of years are now essentially doubled in practice.
2.) Raising the floor has always been the case... That is why we have all these problematic sets like rush of agony, vicious death, null-arca(this one is more of a grey area since it's 'supposed' to be a pve primary set lol) etc etc. As for the "skill" comment, this is such a convoluted concept. You and I have different interpretations of "skill." As an example, you often use duels as a baseline. I do not. To me, duels stopped being about "skill" after 2020. In the last 6 years that cloud has only intensified due to the direction the overall combat balance went between the under-the-hood mechanisms combined with the egregious sets consistently being added.
Your example deliberately paints someone you "do not know" as someone lesser then you, when you in earnest "do not know" who they are or what their actual skill/experience/playtime/build even is. And this is still just a bad premise to base balance on anyway. I get killed by "randoms" doing simple combos for a year now with every single one of my recaps having merciless resolves and deep fissure and half of the time some of them are base nbs or wardens!
It's going to be a bumpy ride. I'm not a big fan of 7 out of 10 players all being dks atm either. But I do like the sound of sets becoming less relevant due to the class itself having such raw power in the native toolkit. So yes, this direction does give me hope for all the other classes. All of which I will personally be playing as their respective refresh releases. I may not necessarily fully -agree- with this direction, I feel like the more logical solution is to do a balance refresh on sets, but I guess that is a gargantuan tall order. So class refreshes are the next best thing and has had it's necessity set into motion due to the emergence of subclassing. If you are as against subclassing as I am, then we would both agree it was a mistake that should have never left the cutting room board in the developer office, yet here we are.2 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »I’m certainly not a theorycrafter, but the thought of both reworked DKs and reworked Wardens dominating Cyrodiil while the other classes have to wait is depressing.
I hope the rest of us and Cyrodiil itself can survive this.
I think people will be ok.
The Devs are going to release Class Mastery passives, additional passive benefits that players running a non-subclassed build can equip (up to 2) which will work to try and bridge the gap while they continue to work on the class refreshes. We should get that in the next couple of months.
The changes to DK, IMO, were in the right direction. The reality is that anytime the Devs make a positive change the “toxic meta” as I like to call it will absolutely cherry pick parts of that, we’re seeing that with DK skills.
As for Warden, that’s not live on PTS yet so we don’t know what those specific changes are going to be, but, my prediction is that it’s going to cut into the metas pretty hard if they break up all the utility that’s being had out of the AC skill line. On a side note, the RoA set and Charm are being looked at during the Warden refresh due to all the bug reports.
In PvP the ceiling for crit scaling is soft so Crit has gone into orbit thanks to subclassing. With no added sources of Crit resist this has seen players who had been durable in the past aren’t as durable now.
For now, there’s no one-stop solution for players who choose not to run the meta. What I will say, just from my experience, is that there are options for non meta builds and creativity that are effective. No, they won’t hit like the meta but they can be competitive, especially against players who aren’t experienced and are instead leaning on sets or mechanics rather than skill.
In the meantime, I’m glad to see DK get some elevation.Edited by NxJoeyD on March 21, 2026 5:42AM1 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭Your example deliberately paints someone you "do not know" as someone lesser then you, when you in earnest "do not know" who they are or what their actual skill/experience/playtime/build even is. And this is still just a bad premise to base balance on anyway. I get killed by "randoms" doing simple combos for a year now with every single one of my recaps having merciless resolves and deep fissure and half of the time some of them are base nbs or wardens!
Yes, the DK in my example is a random and did not know. You know why? Because he is in a Vicious Death build and chasing down 1 player with 5 other people. You don’t do that unless you copied someone’s build because you saw some gigachad nuked 6 ppl with it, while not having the skills to actually achieve the same thing.
The subclassed player actually knows what he’s doing, which is why I did not say he’s a random. I’m not painting someone in a bad light, i’m simply stating what happened. With my past experiences playing outnumbered, I’m confident that my assumption is correct.0 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?
And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?
My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.
It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.
Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).
I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao
Pretty sure we’re about to see a lot of Subcrutched Gigachads learn they are in fact not so much better than Unknown Twenty Patches Ago Timmy.
This is the same vibe I'm getting from this. If all the classes meet this threshold with the refreshes, this might lessen the gap between meta and non-meta. I'm so tired of "meta" dictating everything in this game. It was old over 5 years ago already with the continuous release of problematic sets and fundamental changes like "hybridization".
Exactly, in the scenario he/she just posted, Timmy is on a specific build, if power lash isn’t proc’d and/or Corrosive isn’t active they aren’t doing that much output. Which IS REFRESHING cause it’s about mechanics not stats or sets. It’s literally what they intended with the DK refresh, sounds like Timmy built his Ulti and timed it with a proc’d Power Lash (see *attrition).
Lol. Popping Corro and hitting a Power Lash takes less skill than comboing Contingency + Incap + Bow proc all together. You are really starting to sound like a DK main that just got his hands on the buffs and are refusing to admit it's broken.
I can guarantee you that if I was on that DK, I would have one shotted myself much sooner instead of taking 3 GCDs like Timmy over there. Yet, little Timmy's DK just got a fat buff, and he's mashing random buttons but still somehow have lethal kill power because, well, DK is broken.Edited by hoangdz on March 21, 2026 8:26AM1 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭1.) Yes. Power should be sourced from abilities primarily. In the last 8ish years it has been a gradual shift into sets more and more adding raw power(primarily procs). DK has a few tweaks and suddenly skills that hit like a wet noodle last month for the last whatever amount of years are now essentially doubled in practice.
Power has always been sourced from abilities. Uh hello, subclassing? Aren't people complaining that subclassing is too strong because people can stack 3-4 burst abilities together and 1 shot someone? That didn't come from sets. That came from layered burst abilities. Why does DK suddenly get special treatment all of a sudden?
It sounds to me that people are fed up with subclassing and are trying pretty damn hard to convince themselves that pure DK is fine balance-wise, when in reality it's beyond fine. Pure DK is the best class in the game right now, period, and while I am perfectly fine with waiting for all classes to be reworked, let's not pretend that pure DK is somehow different than subclassed builds. They are both the same, just differently packaged.2.) As for the "skill" comment, this is such a convoluted concept. You and I have different interpretations of "skill." As an example, you often use duels as a baseline. I do not. To me, duels stopped being about "skill" after 2020. In the last 6 years that cloud has only intensified due to the direction the overall combat balance went between the under-the-hood mechanisms combined with the egregious sets consistently being added.
I don't just duel though. I also 1vX, small scale, and have participated in large scale PvP. I do use duels as my main metric of balance because that's just about the best way to gauge power disparity between classes, when most random factors are excluded. Obviously the skill level between duelers and build difference can skew with my analysis, it's at least more controllable than openworld Cyrodiil where there are different levels of players and builds. Yet, I still take openworld PvP into consideration because like you said, dueling is a completely different environment than openworld PvP.
Regardless, there are people who mainly do openworld like React, and even he acknowledges that pure DK is the best class the game as ever seen. Keep in mind, this isn't 2016. People have more HP, more defense, and overall more stats. 1vXing and outnumbered PvP has been in a decline ever since, but pure DK right now managed to bring back what 2016 1vXing felt like. That to me is good news, but can you imagine the level of power creep this game will have after all classes have been reworked? if the intention is to raise the floor, then high-frequency 1 shot burst combos need to be rarer, because Mr.Joe who's new to PvP isn't gonna love getting 1 tapped by a sweaty lol
2 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yes, which can be accomplished by nerfing sets/stats, before nerfing classes.then high-frequency 1 shot burst combos need to be rarer
If you nerf classes but not sets/stats, we are right back where we started, where sets and subclassing dictate the meta because these things have so much more power than your class, weapon, or combat prowess.
You mention React but he said the other classes should be brought up to DK's level.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP1 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭Yes, which can be accomplished by nerfing sets/stats, before nerfing classes.
If you nerf classes but not sets/stats, we are right back where we started, where sets and subclassing dictate the meta because these things have so much more power than your class, weapon, or combat prowess.
Sure, how many sets do you need to nerf? Just this patch, a pure DK is stomping non-DKs with a wasted 5-piece set front bar. When class masteries go live next patch and other classes are reworked, you will see the same pattern all over again. Classes will be so strong that you can run trash sets and still nuke people.
Is this balanced? No, absolutely not. Never before in the history of the game can you run a trash set front bar and be able to kill the majority of the playerbase. You almost always needed to run some form of meta build (7th legion/Fury, triple proc stacking, etc.). At that point, why not just delete sets together then?You mention React but he said the other classes should be brought up to DK's level.
I think there's a clear difference between me and React versus me and some people in this thread.
Me and React:
- We both agree that DK is currently the strongest class in the game.
- We both think other classes should be brought up to DK's level
- He thinks DK should mainly stay untouched until other classes have been brought up to that level
I personally want Inhale nerfed because it's enabling a lot of people to forgo sustain completely. This is the only part where our opinion diverges.
Meanwhile, me and some people in this thread:
- They don't think DK is currently the strongest class in the game
- We both think other classes should be brought up to DK's level
- They thinks DK should mainly stay untouched until other classes have been brought up to that level
To say that DK isn't the strongest class in the game is flat out wrong. Not only the tooltip numbers support DK being the strongest, but also in-game CMX data.
Edited by hoangdz on March 21, 2026 12:59PM3 -
HarfnUA✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?
And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?
My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.
It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.
Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).
I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao
I think it's worth considering that Corrosive is very easy to kite. Due to the animation changes, Corrosive is very visible. It only takes 1-2 Streaks or just running away. If the players' skill level is high enough, to effectively use Corrosive you need to choose the right timing, position, and cooldowns of your abilities and sets. If I can kite Corrosive on my DK (melee) right now, then I think there shouldn’t be any problems for subclass builds with this.
1 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?
And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?
My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.
It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.
Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).
I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao
I think it's worth considering that Corrosive is very easy to kite. Due to the animation changes, Corrosive is very visible. It only takes 1-2 Streaks or just running away. If the players' skill level is high enough, to effectively use Corrosive you need to choose the right timing, position, and cooldowns of your abilities and sets. If I can kite Corrosive on my DK (melee) right now, then I think there shouldn’t be any problems for subclass builds with this.
Incap debuff can also be cleansed off or kited. Incap itself can be dodged or blocked. Yet, people complained about it.
Corrosive being easy to kite is not up for debate. But here’s the important part you’re missing: It is easy to kite… in a duel. When you fight outnumbered, there are a gazillion visual effects happening left and right. It gets pretty damn hard trying to recognize Corrosive’s animation amidst that chaos within a 2s window (yes, that’s how short it can be), let alone trying to see who popped that ultimate inside a 5-6 man group. When I got hit by that Corrosive Power Lash, I was ALREADY kiting and LoSing around a rock. That DK just happened to catch up to me with new wings (Major Expedition) along with 4 other DKs. As a melee build, I can’t kite forever. I need to heavy attack and go on offense. Don’t evem get me started on the ranged builds using Corrosive lol.
The point is a non-crit Flame Lash with Corrosive’s full pen is hitting almost as hard as a CRIT Spectral Bow amped up by Incap debuff (2x Major Vulnerability’s value) and Balorgh pen (17-18k pen with Balorgh and Major + Minor Breach). I had 4.5k crit resit (69% crit damage mitigation), so that crit Bow proc would have done an extra 65%+ crit damage to me (135% crit damage build, completely achievable with subclassing and Monomyth). A non-crit Bow would have done ~5300 damage, still 2.4k less than that Power Lash. I haven’t even gone into the fact that he could have done a 10k non crit Whip if he swapped to Molten morph.
People are so quick to tunnel vision on “Corrosive”, while ignoring the fact that it’s a NON CRIT hit on a SPAMMABLE. You can’t really spam Bows now can you?Edited by hoangdz on March 21, 2026 1:24PM1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is one small relief I would be surprised if anybody opposed:
REMOVE THE FLAME DAMAGE TAKEN ON VAMPIRE
I was all about this during the last DK meta, I'm all about it again. This would give us all Undeath at its modest 10% rather than the OP 30% last time. Right now I assume all non Glass Cannon have dropped Vamp for this patch.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭DK is way OP. No debate.
How can the pain be lessened now in a way that doesn't put DK in a weak spot months down the line when new Sorc is released?
Removing the Flame Damage Penalty, even if only while BSpirit is active, is kind of like a 5% ish overall nerf to DK damage, which can easily be modified later.
But that change wouldn't even be possible until Warden is out I guess?Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
ToddIngram✭✭✭✭I think about 60% of Cyrodiil are on DK's now. So something is going on to cause suck a high proportion of people into "mysteriously" start playing DK. So ya, DK is the strongest in the game right now as evidenced by everyone rushing to pick up their DK's so they can be competitive. This only happens when ZOS makes one class so much stronger than others....just like they've always done in the past when introducing new classes.
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SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
✭Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.
This was my mitigation:
and CPs:
I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.
This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:
With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.
Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:
Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.
Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.
A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.
Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?
And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?
My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.
It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.
Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).
I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao
Pretty sure we’re about to see a lot of Subcrutched Gigachads learn they are in fact not so much better than Unknown Twenty Patches Ago Timmy.
But the Subcrutched Gigachads will get on a DK, then Unknown Timmies get put back in their place. Rinse repeat. Then maybe Unknown Timmies will finally learn to play
Then a Warden, then a Sorc, etc etc etc
But when Warden refresh drops the hope is that it’s even with DK’s refresh but with its own uniqueness, not making all the DK mains feel like they have to play Warden. Same when Sorc drops. That’s the point.
Subclassing was the opposite, “here’s everything you could ever want, but btw these three/four skill lines are way above any combo you’ll ever dream of, have fun.”
Then you could have just said that, but ínstead you misinterpreted my screenshots and downplayed DK’s strength. This is exactly the problem I’m talking about. There is a difference between saying “we need to wait until all classes are reworked” and “DK isn’t that strong”. Your responses have been implying the 2nd one.
I already did on page 4 of this thread.
“I promise I get it, months of DKs running around is gonna be rough for non DKs. It’s a necessary evil, I would rather fight DKs and werewolves for the next 6 months, then Wardens/DKs/Werewolves, as the trickle in, instead of fighting the subclass meta for two and half years straight.”
I’m not misinterpreting your posts, I am disagreeing with the motives of why you are posting. You say you’re an X’er and dueler trying to play pure Sorc, but posting screenshots of someone that killed you with 5 of his buddies with a 7k Power Lash while in Corrosive like that’s a problem. There’s little less annoying than an X’er that cries for nerfs cause the aggro didn’t come one at a time like a Van Dam movie from the 90’s.Lol. Popping Corro and hitting a Power Lash takes less skill than comboing Contingency + Incap + Bow proc all together. You are really starting to sound like a DK main that just got his hands on the buffs and are refusing to admit it's broken.
I can guarantee you that if I was on that DK, I would have one shotted myself much sooner instead of taking 3 GCDs like Timmy over there. Yet, little Timmy's DK just got a fat buff, and he's mashing random buttons but still somehow have lethal kill power because, well, DK is broken.
And no, I’ve “mained” a NB forever, but yes I have two DKs that I can actually play now without subbing into something else, thank the lord.
Shalks Incap Bow is much more brain dead than Power Lash.Edited by SneaK on March 21, 2026 4:04PM"IMO"Aldmeri Dominion1 Nightblade - 1 Templar - 7 Hybrid Mutt Abominations3 -
Wup_sa✭✭✭Dk is very strong, but honestly very disappointing rework. I wanted to play 1.6 dk again with talons and lash, but lash was completely changed.
They broke few abilities like inhale. I'm running 30k mag and 500 recoveries and i never run out of resources. Lash is arguably far weaker in terms of dueling, but in openworld its more versitile, because its an AoE for some reason.
But as a DK main, i have no issues fighting other dks, unless i get cc bugged from fossilize/shattering rocks (which is very easy to abuse).
I would argue though that pure dk is still not as strong as meta subclassing builds, because dks kit is still imo easy to avoid.4 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »There is one small relief I would be surprised if anybody opposed:
REMOVE THE FLAME DAMAGE TAKEN ON VAMPIRE
I was all about this during the last DK meta, I'm all about it again. This would give us all Undeath at its modest 10% rather than the OP 30% last time. Right now I assume all non Glass Cannon have dropped Vamp for this patch.
Players should take vampire for the abilities not the passives.
Vampires take extra Flame Damage to conform to the series lore and basic common sense.
Take the line if you want to play like a vampire not for the free stats. We lived that stupid life for way too long, most of vampire's entire existence. Originally, you took it for the free regen. Later, you took it for the free mitigation. No build decision should be free. The tiny increases to ability cost by themselves are not a high enough price for the power.3 -
SandandStars✭✭✭✭✭
My concern is that as they refresh other classes, some semblance of PVP "balance" will never come close to materializing.
I don't know if it's an intentional part of marketing strategy or just a consequence of struggling to balance a pretty convoluted mess of a game, but it seems there's always one meta with an extreme advantage, and a fair percentage of the sweaty hord flock to it.
Right now, flame lash/molten whips are about 80% of the skills listed on my recaps. I play high mobility and read the battlefield pretty well (LOS etc), so it's not a consequence of standing still in stupid places.
It's that 80% of the buttons being mashed right now are flame lash and molten whips.
So for me, this is a boring state of pvp.
I'm disappointed because I really enjoyed the few times there was something closer to balance and there was more class diversity -- people using distinctly different builds and play styles. That's the most fun for me.2