Why is everything becoming more cartoony?

Vaqual · March 23

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Exactly. It's a multiplayer game, so ideally, the world's atmosphere as a whole should be kept in mind. Every animation one player uses doesn't only affect this one player (who might find it awesome, because of the cool visuals, or because they find it fitting for their character's story - it's all understandable, everyone has different ideas and a different taste) after all - but it also affects everyone else who is around. Which can be dozens of different people in cities, who might not find that animation fitting or immersive at all. And that's already one design decision I personally question: The obtrusiveness. No matter what a personal animation is about, it should not be able to white out other players' screens with a flashy explosion effect.

And where does that line get drawn then?

I was told that I was the only Vestige because I alone went with Lyris through the Wailing Prison to save the Prophet. That means that it is not lore appropriate for me to see any other characters interact with skyshards out in the world, and I do see them animate and glow during that. Should I therefore demand that no other players may collect Skyshards around me?

No. Obviously not.

Look, most people in this thread are really asking for one thing: a way to hide other players (from some of their elements to their effects to their animations to the entire player themself) from the game so they don't have to see them. That's what you're asking for. You're leaning on other players existing and playing the game as them being unconscionably rude for using anything other than the default cosmetics. I've even seen people who are frequently posting in this thread complaining in another thread that other players had lore-inappropriate names.

Maybe you can ask ZOS to expand this forthcoming "hide other things" option to go as far as to hide other players from the game completely. I'm sure things like private servers would also be massive hits for the players, even though the dev team seems to prefer that the population does not get fragmented (see all of the arguments about the upcoming difficulty not being sharded). I also think it could be an interesting experiment if they did give an option to hide everything and saw if that impacted sales of cosmetics... but if it did, I wouldn't be surprised for them to remove that option.

This all comes down to one factor: this game does need to make money somehow. There's a good reason that websites like YouTube are waging wars on AdBlockers even though there's not a single person who wants to see those ads.
Would watching videos be a much better experience if we didn't have to sit through unskippable ads or pay their stupid subscription? Of course! That'd be wonderful!
But can the company support doing so? That server space does need to get funded somehow...

I think the majority is rather asking for ZOS to make money in a way that doesn't harm the games integrity in the long term. To stay with your analogy, what would you say if YouTube decided to show ads from adult websites? Some prefer that, right? Some pay good money for that, right? Would that be feasible? No it would not.

Hiding intrusive effects is a band-aid fix for poor decisions that have already been made. I am sure that most player can intuitively decide what really belongs into a setting, what needs to be scarce and what can be available to a wider range of the game worlds population. A neutral example could be this: Is it really appropriate that city guards use DK abilities instead of only simple weapon abilities? I am not asking if you can shoehorn a justification into your setting for something like that, but to purely answer this from your gut for yourself.

tomofhyrule · March 23

Malyore wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

This all comes down to one factor: this game does need to make money somehow. There's a good reason that websites like YouTube are waging wars on AdBlockers even though there's not a single person who wants to see those ads.
Would watching videos be a much better experience if we didn't have to sit through unskippable ads or pay their stupid subscription? Of course! That'd be wonderful!
But can the company support doing so? That server space does need to get funded somehow...

You're right, Skyrim has never made successful amounts of money without adding glowing skin cosmetics inside gamble crates. That's obviously the only option to get people to pay money for a videogame.

I'm exaggerating to try to make a point. I understand that Skyrim and ESO are different games. But the point being that there are ways for a game to still make money, with other values and quality to be provided and purchasable besides neon horses.
Yes, ESO has to make money somehow. That is not in dispute. "Somehow" is not monolithic, either. Where would that line get drawn? Does ZOS add cat-earred headphone adornments and maid outfits to the store if it comes down to the one factor, that they have to make money somehow. Therefore, adding nonsense into the game is okay, because: profit = servers.

I'd argue that we are paying them to meet general expectations of Elder Scrolls. They chose to use this IP, it is their job to provide it.

Skyrim (and, let's face it, the other games in the series from Morrowind on) made a lot of money and had a lot of sticking power for one major reason: moddability. That means everyone can make the game however they want it to be, which is exactly what people are saying in this thread. There's a reason that Oblivion Remastered doesn't really get talked about as much even though it's only like a year old.

After all, look at howe many different opinions are even in this thread. There are some people who want all other players excised from the game completely. There are some who don't mind other players, but want to force the game to render them all as generic NPCs with generic cosmetics. There are some who just want to pick and choose which cosmetics are over the top. If the game were moddable, they could do that.

But... it's an MMO. It can't be modded. We are all beholden to what the devs choose to put into the game. That means that we can't end up with one player who wants the grimdark experience and another who likes the replace-all-dragons-with-Thomas-the-Tank-Engine experience and another who's hardcore on the make-all-NPCs-goonerbait train all be happy like they could in Skyrim. After all, look how many different mods exist for Skyrim.

BretonMage wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But that comes with the territory of an MMO, which - as much as people want to pretend it's not - this game is. When I see someone on an obnoxious mount, I roll my eyes and go on with my day. I don't complain about how my entire experience in game was ruined by a troll (who may or may not even be trolling).
<snip>

Again, we all have different views. I personally do not like these crates at all, and this is the first set I haven't bought a single one of. I really only needed two or three things so I used my Seals and Gems and am hoping the U50 set is better. But I will not fault anyone who wants to turn into a pink nebula and ride a starry pink sparkleornaug. I'll just turn my camera to a different direction until they've passed by.

None of us are accusing players of anything. Of course if it's in the crates, I don't fault them for using it. This thread is about ZOS putting them in the world in the first place, and the recent increase in these flashy collectibles.

You might not be. Some people are. Again, this is not a monolithic group, and there are absolutely people here who are mad at players who use them for daring to enjoy things that are offerred.

BretonMage wrote: »

It was a similar thread from a while ago where people were complaining about the flashiness of things, and Kevin even came in and said something to the extent of "we want to make sure we have some things for everyone, so some things are flashy and some are not." So to that end, I went through all of the Crown Store stuff from March (the new Crates and the new stuff from the Showcase) to see how that balances:
I'm assigning these into one of three categories:
R: Ridiculous, Flashy and Obnoxious with a tenuous connection at best to the lore
E: Exotic, something that would fit in universe in a way, but would definitely earn some sideways glances from more conservative members of society
M: Mundane, something that would fit well in the specific culture represented.

So it does actually seem like there's a mix of stuff for everyone in here. And as can be expected, the vast majority of the flashiest stuff is in the higher tier of the Crown Crates, and the more mundane stuff is lower tier in the crates or not in the crates at all.

One would have to look at it in the wider context of other developments. The increasingly bright and flashy skill styles that did not exist pre-2025, the DK refresh, the increasing frequency of these incredibly flashy radiant apex mounts, the increasingly explosive summoning animations, the increasing intensity in colour of all these collectibles. They are all leading to the increasing "cartoony" aspect of ESO.

And whilst one crate might be "balanced" (I'd argue that having all radiant apexes be Ridiculous is not exactly balanced), the cumulative effect of players having Ridiculous collectibles from over the years means that any space with a number of players will be generally be rather Ridiculous. You might have one player with the pink ornaug, one player with the Meridian Charger, one player with Kenarthi's Thundersteed, one with the Celestial Ram, a few players with the red Twilight, a few DKs with Molten Weapons on, a few players porting out with the Accursed or Coldharbour recalls, porting in with the Mages Guild recall...

It adds up, and we know more are on the way. Hence this thread.

Real talk: If someone was whaling on crates and got a super rare mount that... was the equivalent of something they could by for 50k gold, would they be happy about that? And besides, what would be something they could use as a "Radiant Mundane mount?" After all, we even had people (again, names from this thread!) complaining about the availability of the OG Mammoth mount despite it having no effects and being a creature that exists in universe, it's just big.

Your second point is also saying that people are using these things. So... the developers can look at that and say "hey, this stuff sells, let's make more!"

The best thing people in this thread can do is to buy mundane things so the team knows that mundane things sell, and to use this option that we know is coming once it does.

Let's consider timelines for a bit as well:
This game released with a mandatory sub in April 2014. It... did not go well. Just under a year later, the sub model was dropped and the Crown Store was added with Tamriel Unlimited in March 2015. Crown Crates (Storm Atronach, which would be our first set of 'flashy' mounts) were added in December of 2016.
So we've had flashy mounts for longer than we haven't. We've had flashy mounts for longer than many people have been playing. Now the first real mounts with loads of persistent effects were... the Godslayer mount. So, one that was specifically made as a reward for an achievement and was not buyable. Of course it didn't last long before the others were buyable.

Again, I'm not a huge fan of all of this either - personally, I'd delete all non-combat pets from the game since even the mundane ones skittering around draw my eye because I play tank and I always am on the lookout for things to be chained in, not to mention that they could spend all of the art team's time making the fifteenth version of a bantam guar to be making more outfit styles instead. But this is not my world, so people who want one are allowed to have one. I actually like the existence of Custom Actions and Skill Styles because they let me make my characters more unique from each other, which means they each exist as individuals on their own (even if ZOS's current goal is to make playing more than one character irrelevant).

I also think there's a major difference between "hey, here's a recall animation that looks like one of the portals to Oblivion opening from this universe" and "hey, we're doing a collab with Marvel so you can all wear a Spider-man costume!" One does not necessarily lead to the other.

I have a very live-and-let-live mentality of it all. If someone wants to have a disco lightshow horse thing because it makes them happy, I roll my eyes and continue with my day. I very rarely see players outside of towns and world bosses anyway, so it's easy for me to have my own time. I also choose to port with wayshrines unless I'm in my home or just finishing a daily in a remote location, so it's not like I'm causing lightshows in the middle of the banks (but other players do, which again is not something I can control; heck even before we had flashy recalls, we had people using that one addon that specifically used the Finvir's Trinket memento when they were porting so they would look like they were being beamed up Star Trek style, and that was all basegame).

But yes, the world is also becoming more flashy. That was one of my feedbacks for the new 2H weapons when they were on PTS, but the team seems to be going bigger. I may not like it, but I understand it. As someone in education, I am seeing how much more overexposed children are now compared to how they were 10 years ago, and I'm sure anyone who deals with anyone in general has noticed how mentalities have changed. Times are changing, whether we like it or not, and sometimes the best thing that businesses can do is to keep up with the times.

Fortunately, when TES6 releases, there'll be modders champing at the bit to change the artstyle immediately, so even if they do go more cartoony (I'd hope they take a hard left into grimdark territory, but I know that's not realistic), someone will mod it all out.
I know someone previously in the thread brought up Dragon Age: The Veilguard as an example of "they changed the artstyle now it sucks." But... while the artstyle was not favored by the players, that was definitely not the problem with that game. I'll instead point to Zelda games - we got some reasonably realistic (for the time) graphics in Ocarina and Majora's Mask... and that followed with cel-chaded cartoony nonsense in Wind Waker. Which failed because the artstyle went bad, right? No, people looked past the artstyle because it was good. I personally prefer the realism version of Twilight Princess, but each direction that game went in has fans.

Malyore · March 23

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

This all comes down to one factor: this game does need to make money somehow. There's a good reason that websites like YouTube are waging wars on AdBlockers even though there's not a single person who wants to see those ads.
Would watching videos be a much better experience if we didn't have to sit through unskippable ads or pay their stupid subscription? Of course! That'd be wonderful!
But can the company support doing so? That server space does need to get funded somehow...

You're right, Skyrim has never made successful amounts of money without adding glowing skin cosmetics inside gamble crates. That's obviously the only option to get people to pay money for a videogame.

I'm exaggerating to try to make a point. I understand that Skyrim and ESO are different games. But the point being that there are ways for a game to still make money, with other values and quality to be provided and purchasable besides neon horses.
Yes, ESO has to make money somehow. That is not in dispute. "Somehow" is not monolithic, either. Where would that line get drawn? Does ZOS add cat-earred headphone adornments and maid outfits to the store if it comes down to the one factor, that they have to make money somehow. Therefore, adding nonsense into the game is okay, because: profit = servers.

I'd argue that we are paying them to meet general expectations of Elder Scrolls. They chose to use this IP, it is their job to provide it.

Skyrim (and, let's face it, the other games in the series from Morrowind on) made a lot of money and had a lot of sticking power for one major reason: moddability. That means everyone can make the game however they want it to be, which is exactly what people are saying in this thread. There's a reason that Oblivion Remastered doesn't really get talked about as much even though it's only like a year old.

After all, look at howe many different opinions are even in this thread. There are some people who want all other players excised from the game completely. There are some who don't mind other players, but want to force the game to render them all as generic NPCs with generic cosmetics. There are some who just want to pick and choose which cosmetics are over the top. If the game were moddable, they could do that.

But... it's an MMO. It can't be modded. We are all beholden to what the devs choose to put into the game. That means that we can't end up with one player who wants the grimdark experience and another who likes the replace-all-dragons-with-Thomas-the-Tank-Engine experience and another who's hardcore on the make-all-NPCs-goonerbait train all be happy like they could in Skyrim. After all, look how many different mods exist for Skyrim.

What would you say then for TES games on console, which aren't moddable? And do people purchase TES games because their first thought before even playing the game is "I cant wait to mod this into something it isn't"? And what about when Skyrim has had so many rereleases and updated content. How does the modding factor affect those?

It's true that for PC players such games are moddable, but I think saying that is the only reason it sold well ignores the foundation of the games themself. People have fun in its setting, and with experiencing quests and exploration, stories and lore. There is a lot of replay value in each aspect of gameplay before a mod even touches the game.

I think if ESO brought more to the table inherently– having stronger foundations in gameplay– then it would be easier for them to make money in other ways besides bad cosmetics. One way could still even include cosmetics, but just having them be respectful.

Eporem · March 23

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

Why is everything becoming more cartoony? Revenue & Peacocking (and I’m not saying Peacocking is a totally bad thing, freedom and all that).

What can you do about it?

Ask ZOS for a method for the effects to be reduced, which is in the pipeline.

Base yourself away from populations to do crafting and the like, so less chance of having to endure Peacocking (a method I use).

Accept that this is ESO now, or move on to another means of entertainment.

There is the president of ZOS doing something to help people with visual effect issues, as they turned down the lightning strikes in The Deadlands. That was a simple fix. I can’t see a simple fix for all the issues brought up in the thread besides the coming option of reduction in effects. I can’t reasonably see what else ZOS can do, sorry.

Flight of fancy thinking, maybe there could be an ESO original effects instance made, BUT there is a cost and would ZOS take that hit, alas, I don’t think so.

Open question to all affected. Would you pay extra for a “Vanilla” instance, e.g. no effects and skill styles (If this is even possible, I have no clue how it would work, I mean Dungeons/Trials/PvP and the like would be a nightmare)?

I do think some effects have gotten out of hand, but, it is what it is and each to their own.

To this open question to all: I remember reading when this game first came about - about a questionnaire that could be filled out - that these answers would phase you with others that had similar answers - I think it was geared more toward roleplaying but whatever happened to this and could it still be done..though maybe with different questions geared more to this topic? or I think not now for after looking it up - this technology never came to be..

tomofhyrule · March 23

Malyore wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

This all comes down to one factor: this game does need to make money somehow. There's a good reason that websites like YouTube are waging wars on AdBlockers even though there's not a single person who wants to see those ads.
Would watching videos be a much better experience if we didn't have to sit through unskippable ads or pay their stupid subscription? Of course! That'd be wonderful!
But can the company support doing so? That server space does need to get funded somehow...

You're right, Skyrim has never made successful amounts of money without adding glowing skin cosmetics inside gamble crates. That's obviously the only option to get people to pay money for a videogame.

I'm exaggerating to try to make a point. I understand that Skyrim and ESO are different games. But the point being that there are ways for a game to still make money, with other values and quality to be provided and purchasable besides neon horses.
Yes, ESO has to make money somehow. That is not in dispute. "Somehow" is not monolithic, either. Where would that line get drawn? Does ZOS add cat-earred headphone adornments and maid outfits to the store if it comes down to the one factor, that they have to make money somehow. Therefore, adding nonsense into the game is okay, because: profit = servers.

I'd argue that we are paying them to meet general expectations of Elder Scrolls. They chose to use this IP, it is their job to provide it.

Skyrim (and, let's face it, the other games in the series from Morrowind on) made a lot of money and had a lot of sticking power for one major reason: moddability. That means everyone can make the game however they want it to be, which is exactly what people are saying in this thread. There's a reason that Oblivion Remastered doesn't really get talked about as much even though it's only like a year old.

After all, look at howe many different opinions are even in this thread. There are some people who want all other players excised from the game completely. There are some who don't mind other players, but want to force the game to render them all as generic NPCs with generic cosmetics. There are some who just want to pick and choose which cosmetics are over the top. If the game were moddable, they could do that.

But... it's an MMO. It can't be modded. We are all beholden to what the devs choose to put into the game. That means that we can't end up with one player who wants the grimdark experience and another who likes the replace-all-dragons-with-Thomas-the-Tank-Engine experience and another who's hardcore on the make-all-NPCs-goonerbait train all be happy like they could in Skyrim. After all, look how many different mods exist for Skyrim.

What would you say then for TES games on console, which aren't moddable? And do people purchase TES games because their first thought before even playing the game is "I cant wait to mod this into something it isn't"? And what about when Skyrim has had so many rereleases and updated content. How does the modding factor affect those?

It's true that for PC players such games are moddable, but I think saying that is the only reason it sold well ignores the foundation of the games themself. People have fun in its setting, and with experiencing quests and exploration, stories and lore. There is a lot of replay value in each aspect of gameplay before a mod even touches the game.

I think if ESO brought more to the table inherently– having stronger foundations in gameplay– then it would be easier for them to make money in other ways besides bad cosmetics. One way could still even include cosmetics, but just having them be respectful.

The last mainline game on console is moddable. I actually prefer my games on XBox, and I mod the heck out of Skyrim. Granted, mine are more along the lines of darker nights and changing the ugly modern font to something that fits more with the game setting.

And yes, mods did not release with the original release in 2011. The previous TES mainline game was not moddable on console. It released in 2006.

Are we assuming that the gaming landscape has not changed in that time? There are people who can vote today as who were not even alive when Oblivion released. Heck, even ESO originally released over ten years ago, which is plenty of time for the gaming landscape to have changed since then. Or are you implying that, in a post-covid and post-Tik Tok world (and post-everything else that’s happened and is happening…), that everyone is still acting the same as they were pre-2016?

Life changes. We don’t have to like the direction it changed to, but we should be able to adapt. And if it gets untenable, we always have the option of removing ourselves from the situation. I still have my Skyrim loaded up for when I can’t with ESO (which tbf was a lot of last year because the game was not fun). I’m actually a lot happier this year because I removed myself a lot last year and did my own thing in my own world where I could choose what was going on.

BretonMage · March 23

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Real talk: If someone was whaling on crates and got a super rare mount that... was the equivalent of something they could by for 50k gold, would they be happy about that? And besides, what would be something they could use as a "Radiant Mundane mount?"

The Elder Scrolls aesthetic actually isn't mundane. It's exotic; fantasy realism. And a radiant mount can definitely look special without being obnoxiously bright or colourful. Something like the Ardor's Devotion Senche-Raht, for example, might be a little ridiculous, but it's actually pretty cute all things considered, and does not hurt the eyes. Compare that to Khenarthi's Thundersteed, which is so obnoxiously bright, it even inspired its own hate thread on reddit.

I do think it's possible to maintain some sort of balance between having "special" radiant apexes and the moodier aesthetic which TES is known for. They need to find an attractive design which works, and not just default to "the flashier the better".

But yes, the world is also becoming more flashy. That was one of my feedbacks for the new 2H weapons when they were on PTS, but the team seems to be going bigger. I may not like it, but I understand it. As someone in education, I am seeing how much more overexposed children are now compared to how they were 10 years ago, and I'm sure anyone who deals with anyone in general has noticed how mentalities have changed. Times are changing, whether we like it or not, and sometimes the best thing that businesses can do is to keep up with the times.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I'm the parent of a Gen Z'er and they don't seem at all concerned about flashy graphics. They just want to play with their friends. Not saying that my limited observation necessarily reflects the entirety of the state of Gen Z gaming, but even googling shows that they value the social and competitive aspects more than the design.

So I think it's reasonable to question what it really means to keep up with the times. Because if you try to change the aesthetic identity of a game too much, I think it shows a lack of conviction in your own product, which begs the question, if the creators themselves don't believe in the brand, why should the customer?

Malyore · March 23

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

This all comes down to one factor: this game does need to make money somehow. There's a good reason that websites like YouTube are waging wars on AdBlockers even though there's not a single person who wants to see those ads.
Would watching videos be a much better experience if we didn't have to sit through unskippable ads or pay their stupid subscription? Of course! That'd be wonderful!
But can the company support doing so? That server space does need to get funded somehow...

You're right, Skyrim has never made successful amounts of money without adding glowing skin cosmetics inside gamble crates. That's obviously the only option to get people to pay money for a videogame.

I'm exaggerating to try to make a point. I understand that Skyrim and ESO are different games. But the point being that there are ways for a game to still make money, with other values and quality to be provided and purchasable besides neon horses.
Yes, ESO has to make money somehow. That is not in dispute. "Somehow" is not monolithic, either. Where would that line get drawn? Does ZOS add cat-earred headphone adornments and maid outfits to the store if it comes down to the one factor, that they have to make money somehow. Therefore, adding nonsense into the game is okay, because: profit = servers.

I'd argue that we are paying them to meet general expectations of Elder Scrolls. They chose to use this IP, it is their job to provide it.

Skyrim (and, let's face it, the other games in the series from Morrowind on) made a lot of money and had a lot of sticking power for one major reason: moddability. That means everyone can make the game however they want it to be, which is exactly what people are saying in this thread. There's a reason that Oblivion Remastered doesn't really get talked about as much even though it's only like a year old.

After all, look at howe many different opinions are even in this thread. There are some people who want all other players excised from the game completely. There are some who don't mind other players, but want to force the game to render them all as generic NPCs with generic cosmetics. There are some who just want to pick and choose which cosmetics are over the top. If the game were moddable, they could do that.

But... it's an MMO. It can't be modded. We are all beholden to what the devs choose to put into the game. That means that we can't end up with one player who wants the grimdark experience and another who likes the replace-all-dragons-with-Thomas-the-Tank-Engine experience and another who's hardcore on the make-all-NPCs-goonerbait train all be happy like they could in Skyrim. After all, look how many different mods exist for Skyrim.

What would you say then for TES games on console, which aren't moddable? And do people purchase TES games because their first thought before even playing the game is "I cant wait to mod this into something it isn't"? And what about when Skyrim has had so many rereleases and updated content. How does the modding factor affect those?

It's true that for PC players such games are moddable, but I think saying that is the only reason it sold well ignores the foundation of the games themself. People have fun in its setting, and with experiencing quests and exploration, stories and lore. There is a lot of replay value in each aspect of gameplay before a mod even touches the game.

I think if ESO brought more to the table inherently– having stronger foundations in gameplay– then it would be easier for them to make money in other ways besides bad cosmetics. One way could still even include cosmetics, but just having them be respectful.

The last mainline game on console is moddable. I actually prefer my games on XBox, and I mod the heck out of Skyrim. Granted, mine are more along the lines of darker nights and changing the ugly modern font to something that fits more with the game setting.

And yes, mods did not release with the original release in 2011. The previous TES mainline game was not moddable on console. It released in 2006.

Are we assuming that the gaming landscape has not changed in that time? There are people who can vote today as who were not even alive when Oblivion released. Heck, even ESO originally released over ten years ago, which is plenty of time for the gaming landscape to have changed since then. Or are you implying that, in a post-covid and post-Tik Tok world (and post-everything else that’s happened and is happening…), that everyone is still acting the same as they were pre-2016?

Life changes. We don’t have to like the direction it changed to, but we should be able to adapt. And if it gets untenable, we always have the option of removing ourselves from the situation. I still have my Skyrim loaded up for when I can’t with ESO (which tbf was a lot of last year because the game was not fun). I’m actually a lot happier this year because I removed myself a lot last year and did my own thing in my own world where I could choose what was going on.

Sony doesn't allow mods on their consoles.

And what are you talking about with tik-tok and people acting like they're from 2016? What does that have to do with Elder Scrolls?

I don't understand how saying we can just not play the game... helps the game. Especially when you say their main factor is profit. What are you trying to advocate for here?

Malyore · March 23

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

This all comes down to one factor: this game does need to make money somehow. There's a good reason that websites like YouTube are waging wars on AdBlockers even though there's not a single person who wants to see those ads.
Would watching videos be a much better experience if we didn't have to sit through unskippable ads or pay their stupid subscription? Of course! That'd be wonderful!
But can the company support doing so? That server space does need to get funded somehow...

You're right, Skyrim has never made successful amounts of money without adding glowing skin cosmetics inside gamble crates. That's obviously the only option to get people to pay money for a videogame.

I'm exaggerating to try to make a point. I understand that Skyrim and ESO are different games. But the point being that there are ways for a game to still make money, with other values and quality to be provided and purchasable besides neon horses.
Yes, ESO has to make money somehow. That is not in dispute. "Somehow" is not monolithic, either. Where would that line get drawn? Does ZOS add cat-earred headphone adornments and maid outfits to the store if it comes down to the one factor, that they have to make money somehow. Therefore, adding nonsense into the game is okay, because: profit = servers.

I'd argue that we are paying them to meet general expectations of Elder Scrolls. They chose to use this IP, it is their job to provide it.

Skyrim (and, let's face it, the other games in the series from Morrowind on) made a lot of money and had a lot of sticking power for one major reason: moddability. That means everyone can make the game however they want it to be, which is exactly what people are saying in this thread. There's a reason that Oblivion Remastered doesn't really get talked about as much even though it's only like a year old.

After all, look at howe many different opinions are even in this thread. There are some people who want all other players excised from the game completely. There are some who don't mind other players, but want to force the game to render them all as generic NPCs with generic cosmetics. There are some who just want to pick and choose which cosmetics are over the top. If the game were moddable, they could do that.

But... it's an MMO. It can't be modded. We are all beholden to what the devs choose to put into the game. That means that we can't end up with one player who wants the grimdark experience and another who likes the replace-all-dragons-with-Thomas-the-Tank-Engine experience and another who's hardcore on the make-all-NPCs-goonerbait train all be happy like they could in Skyrim. After all, look how many different mods exist for Skyrim.

What would you say then for TES games on console, which aren't moddable? And do people purchase TES games because their first thought before even playing the game is "I cant wait to mod this into something it isn't"? And what about when Skyrim has had so many rereleases and updated content. How does the modding factor affect those?

It's true that for PC players such games are moddable, but I think saying that is the only reason it sold well ignores the foundation of the games themself. People have fun in its setting, and with experiencing quests and exploration, stories and lore. There is a lot of replay value in each aspect of gameplay before a mod even touches the game.

I think if ESO brought more to the table inherently– having stronger foundations in gameplay– then it would be easier for them to make money in other ways besides bad cosmetics. One way could still even include cosmetics, but just having them be respectful.

Are we assuming that the gaming landscape has not changed in that time? There are people who can vote today as who were not even alive when Oblivion released. Heck, even ESO originally released over ten years ago, which is plenty of time for the gaming landscape to have changed since then. Or are you implying that, in a post-covid and post-Tik Tok world (and post-everything else that’s happened and is happening…), that everyone is still acting the same as they were pre-2016?

Life changes. We don’t have to like the direction it changed to, but we should be able to adapt. And if it gets untenable, we always have the option of removing ourselves from the situation. I still have my Skyrim loaded up for when I can’t with ESO (which tbf was a lot of last year because the game was not fun). I’m actually a lot happier this year because I removed myself a lot last year and did my own thing in my own world where I could choose what was going on.

This just sounds to me like
"Time passes, therefore you are invalid to want an IP to have more respect for its prior material. Design changes will inevitably be radical because tik tok people became adults. We have to bow down and make way for this new direction, and if it gets too horrible then we just leave and move on to the next game."

Are you sure you're not a Microsoft shareholder?

YandereGirlfriend · March 23

Malyore wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

This all comes down to one factor: this game does need to make money somehow. There's a good reason that websites like YouTube are waging wars on AdBlockers even though there's not a single person who wants to see those ads.
Would watching videos be a much better experience if we didn't have to sit through unskippable ads or pay their stupid subscription? Of course! That'd be wonderful!
But can the company support doing so? That server space does need to get funded somehow...

You're right, Skyrim has never made successful amounts of money without adding glowing skin cosmetics inside gamble crates. That's obviously the only option to get people to pay money for a videogame.

I'm exaggerating to try to make a point. I understand that Skyrim and ESO are different games. But the point being that there are ways for a game to still make money, with other values and quality to be provided and purchasable besides neon horses.
Yes, ESO has to make money somehow. That is not in dispute. "Somehow" is not monolithic, either. Where would that line get drawn? Does ZOS add cat-earred headphone adornments and maid outfits to the store if it comes down to the one factor, that they have to make money somehow. Therefore, adding nonsense into the game is okay, because: profit = servers.

I'd argue that we are paying them to meet general expectations of Elder Scrolls. They chose to use this IP, it is their job to provide it.

Skyrim (and, let's face it, the other games in the series from Morrowind on) made a lot of money and had a lot of sticking power for one major reason: moddability. That means everyone can make the game however they want it to be, which is exactly what people are saying in this thread. There's a reason that Oblivion Remastered doesn't really get talked about as much even though it's only like a year old.

After all, look at howe many different opinions are even in this thread. There are some people who want all other players excised from the game completely. There are some who don't mind other players, but want to force the game to render them all as generic NPCs with generic cosmetics. There are some who just want to pick and choose which cosmetics are over the top. If the game were moddable, they could do that.

But... it's an MMO. It can't be modded. We are all beholden to what the devs choose to put into the game. That means that we can't end up with one player who wants the grimdark experience and another who likes the replace-all-dragons-with-Thomas-the-Tank-Engine experience and another who's hardcore on the make-all-NPCs-goonerbait train all be happy like they could in Skyrim. After all, look how many different mods exist for Skyrim.

What would you say then for TES games on console, which aren't moddable? And do people purchase TES games because their first thought before even playing the game is "I cant wait to mod this into something it isn't"? And what about when Skyrim has had so many rereleases and updated content. How does the modding factor affect those?

It's true that for PC players such games are moddable, but I think saying that is the only reason it sold well ignores the foundation of the games themself. People have fun in its setting, and with experiencing quests and exploration, stories and lore. There is a lot of replay value in each aspect of gameplay before a mod even touches the game.

I think if ESO brought more to the table inherently– having stronger foundations in gameplay– then it would be easier for them to make money in other ways besides bad cosmetics. One way could still even include cosmetics, but just having them be respectful.

Are we assuming that the gaming landscape has not changed in that time? There are people who can vote today as who were not even alive when Oblivion released. Heck, even ESO originally released over ten years ago, which is plenty of time for the gaming landscape to have changed since then. Or are you implying that, in a post-covid and post-Tik Tok world (and post-everything else that’s happened and is happening…), that everyone is still acting the same as they were pre-2016?

Life changes. We don’t have to like the direction it changed to, but we should be able to adapt. And if it gets untenable, we always have the option of removing ourselves from the situation. I still have my Skyrim loaded up for when I can’t with ESO (which tbf was a lot of last year because the game was not fun). I’m actually a lot happier this year because I removed myself a lot last year and did my own thing in my own world where I could choose what was going on.

This just sounds to me like
"Time passes, therefore you are invalid to want an IP to have more respect for its prior material. Design changes will inevitably be radical because tik tok people became adults. We have to bow down and make way for this new direction, and if it gets too horrible then we just leave and move on to the next game."

Are you sure you're not a Microsoft shareholder?

How many members of the art team do you think were around in 2014?

We have no way to know, of course, but gamedev turnover is high and I would imagine that very few have any ties to those times. And new devs bring new ideas. Evolution takes place. This is for the best because a stagnant game is a dead game.

As an aside, I would be super interested in the demographics of the chatters in this thread.

tomofhyrule · March 23

BretonMage wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Real talk: If someone was whaling on crates and got a super rare mount that... was the equivalent of something they could by for 50k gold, would they be happy about that? And besides, what would be something they could use as a "Radiant Mundane mount?"

The Elder Scrolls aesthetic actually isn't mundane. It's exotic; fantasy realism. And a radiant mount can definitely look special without being obnoxiously bright or colourful. Something like the Ardor's Devotion Senche-Raht, for example, might be a little ridiculous, but it's actually pretty cute all things considered, and does not hurt the eyes. Compare that to Khenarthi's Thundersteed, which is so obnoxiously bright, it even inspired its own hate thread on reddit.

I do think it's possible to maintain some sort of balance between having "special" radiant apexes and the moodier aesthetic which TES is known for. They need to find an attractive design which works, and not just default to "the flashier the better".

This only highlights the discrepancy here: Everyone responding here has a different line of what is acceptable and what is not.
You're using the Ardor's Devotion Senche-raht as an example of something that you find "ridiculous, but actually pretty cute." And yet, there are people on this forum who were incensed by it. I myself roll my eyes when I see it because I think it's dumb, but I have a friend who loves it because he thinks its funny specifically because it looks so out of place. In addition, I also think the Khenarthi Thundersteed is awful and that lightning bolt is not needed; see also the stupid Harrowstorm tornado from the Nightfall senche, or the meteor summon from the Iron Atro wolf, or the obnoxious blinding Meridian horse in the Dark Chivalry crates. I honestly hate the pink bubble porting animation people have griped about... but the Dark Anchor one doesn't bother me since it could be someone who is RPing a cultist. Like I said, we all have a different point that is too far for us.
I just choose to roll my eyes and then go on with my life instead of allowing someone's choices to ruin my game.

The problem comes up where some people, like you or I, don't mind some of the Radiants, while other people think that anything other than the brown Sorrel horse is a complete destruction of the lore. There are things that have no lights and sirens that people are still complaining about - the OP of this very thread also made a thread to complain that the Dancer personality is inappropriate. Even in 2015, people complained about the costumes "breaking the lore" (images are broken, but context makes it seem like this is referring to the basic "Noble Suit" and "Noble Dress" costumes, which technically yes are not entirely appropriate since such obvious corsetry as is used in that dress was not a thing until about the mid 1800s, so it'd fit with a Steampunk era and not medieval fantasy).
So if everyone has a different point of "where do you draw the line," how do you find a place to draw it appropriately?

Again, I'll point out that I'm not arguing that everything should be obnoxious and flashy. My argument is that these things are being added for various reasons (which likely have to do a lot with money), and - while we can hope that ZOS does give us more grounded things (I desperately want to see them add in more grounded costumes like the Blue Velvet dress from Oblivion as opposed to more costumes that shove dudes in bras) - we have to accept that sometimes they will make something we don't like. But this is not a single-player game in which we can just mod it out. We can choose to ignore it, or we can let it ruin our day.

I'll leave it with a common thing most mental health professionals say all the time: You are not able to control what other people do; you can only control your reactions.
I have chosen to take ESO less seriously since there are other players around and the writing has been... not the best lately. As such, the addition of obnoxious stuff is just not a huge deal for me; I see people supporting the development of the game, and otherwise I just move on with my life and ignore it. The times that I need to lock down and take screenshots without any silliness around, I'll use the PTS or my houses instead. And as I said, I have other games if I want to get super serious in game. I know once TES6 finally releases I'll be locking myself in the basement for a solid month so I can live in that world.
I only hope that ESO will be able to survive the release of TES6 be offerring things that TES6 can't...

BretonMage · March 23

My point was that if radiant apexes bring in money, then sure, let's find a middle ground between bright and colourful, and realistic/immersive. But there needs to be a limit, and I think the limit has been reached in 2025 with the plethora of hypersaturated skill styles and ultra bright mounts. I used to roll my eyes and laugh too, but it's literally painful now to see these things.

ZOS needs to take a pause and figure out how to design radiant apexes that are attractive and unique without being obnoxious. I brought up the Ardor's Devotion because it was unique, the idea of leaving flowers in your wake, even if it's not to everyone's taste. It's not even that unimmersive because there are literally quests in ESO about love and flowers.

SaffronCitrusflower · March 23

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Why is everything becoming more cartoony? What is the reason for this trend? It didn't used to be like this. ESO used to be the most realistic game I had ever played and I loved that about it. It was so much more immersive when we were represented as realistic players in a realistic world.

Now everything is bright and loud and flashy. Why?

Cartoons are bright and loud and flashy for a reason. They are created for children who have short attention spans. They need constant motion and loud noises and bright lights to keep them watching. But children aren't the target audience of this game made for adults. So why is it being presented this way?

Something caused this trend to happen and I'd like some insight into why. Because it is destroying the experience for many of us.

Short answer is cosmetics are the only things the remaining players care about. Look at the forum requests peppering this forum. No longer is anyone discussing performance and combat performance improvements. It's only people talking about housing, what companion they want to see next, what costume, what dye, what skill style, ToT and "fashion is the true endgame", what cosmetics will be in what clown crate etc. nonsense.

Essentially all the players wanting actual game improvements have given up and left the game and/or been forced off the forum.

Yes, this exactly.

ESO has become primarily a game of cosmetics. The players that cared about combat have all given up and moved on or are at least banned from the forum for "bashing" when all they did was criticize performance....which tends to cause players to quit the game, not just the forum. Almost all the competitive players have been run off by ZOS.

SilverBride · March 23

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I'll leave it with a common thing most mental health professionals say all the time: You are not able to control what other people do; you can only control your reactions.

There is one major problem with that. Some people use that as a free pass to be as rude and hurtful as they want because "I didn't make you sad. You chose to feel sad."

This doesn't apply in this situation anyway. People don't choose what they like or don't like. They don't choose to be irritated by certain things. They don't choose to have physical pain from loud noises and bright lights. And they aren't wrong for wanting to remove irritants from their environment.

SilverBride · March 23

tomofhyrule wrote: »

...the OP of this very thread also made a thread to complain that the Dancer personality is inappropriate.

I never said the dancer personality was inappropriate. My complaint was about the constant motion.

AScarlato · March 23

SilverBride wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

...the OP of this very thread also made a thread to complain that the Dancer personality is inappropriate.

I never said the dancer personality was inappropriate. My complaint was about the constant motion.

You've been consistent - I'd keep providing feedback. Things continue to go in the opposite direction from what we'd personally like so nothing wrong with continuing to share as more things like this are released.

SilverBride · March 23

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Erin

Can you please lend some insight on this issue? Particularly why things have moved in this direction, and why skills that we can't just choose not to use, are now also being affected.

dcrush · March 24

While we’re debating whether ZOS is making things flashy and cartoony to appeal to a wider audience, Crimson Desert has found the REAL key to bringing in more players - the ability to pick cats up and carry them around.

ArchangelIsraphel · March 24

I have mixed feelings about this subject.

I like the changes to the skills we've been getting, and I don't mind the fact that they've gotten flashier. I enjoyed them during the testing cycle, and I personally find them rather mild when compared to what other mmos have to offer. With that being said, I'd be in full support of implementing some sort of "legacy" skill style that lets people who don't like them have the original styles. And of course, toggles to reduce certain effects.

Where I am in agreement with you is the mounts. I'm not sure that "cartoony" is the word I'd use, so much as...erm, silly looking?

Mind you, this isn't because I don't like flashy mounts. I'll shamelessly admit that I do, and I'd even say I used to be the target audience they'd want for selling cosmetics. But I haven't bought crates for several years now, because while I do like my share of fancy things, I dislike badly designed mounts. (I do hope this review won't be construed as "bashing" because that isn't my intent. This is genuine feedback from a customer who is no longer spending money because of poor design choices.)

In fact, I've pulled back from buying anything in the crown store all together. I think the last two mounts I purchased were the natural colored flaxen chestnut horse and the mammoth. I just haven't liked anything enough, because all of the mounts have been really over designed?

Too many things sticking off of saddles in strange places (hands, arms, confetti, glitter, spikes, spines...) and just awkward looking design choices in general. Being the lover of wings that I am (and yes, I even requested a winged mount on the forums a few times) you'd think I'd be in love with the new crate mounts. But the fact that the wings were placed towards the back of the saddle just makes what would have been cool look mediocre (should have been towards the front of the saddle, near the shoulder blade) Also the fact that there's no winged horse is practically a war crime :P

I just...don't understand some of the decisions being made about the mounts. This -isn't- an attack on any specific artist, I'd just...really like to see some changes to how things are being designed. I'd like to see more thought go into the practicality of the aesthetics.

Or even just some tamer designs? Something more natural, neutral? I'd like to see more natural colored horses. The Cheetah that was implemented wasn't terrible, I'd just like to see it in some tack that doesn't detract from it's design. Sorry, devs. I'm just really not thrilled with the cash shop designs lately, they're very...silly looking. I mean that in the kindest way possible. I'd really like to see the whole extra limbs sticking off of things stop.

(especially extra arms and hands)

It isn't necessarily BAD to have things like wings. I'd like to see wings again. I just wish more thought was being put into placement. Overall I'm just not impressed with what's been designed in the last 3 years or so.

As for the flashier, glowier mounts? I haven't been drawn to any of those either. Again, for the same reasons. A lot of flash, with underwhelming design choices.

nightbringer1993 · March 24

Well when I see how childish the game has become over the past few years like for example the scribbing quest with that talking fox or the other quests where we have animals talking with a childish tone.

Then there are some of the crown store items like the dancer personality and such and those over the top animations like some of the emotes being offered.

The game is aimed at adults and yet the content is childish these days.

SilverBride · March 24

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

Well when I see how childish the game has become over the past few years like for example the scribbing quest with that talking fox or the other quests where we have animals talking with a childish tone.

Then there are some of the crown store items like the dancer personality and such and those over the top animations like some of the emotes being offered.

The game is aimed at adults and yet the content is childish these days.

I really like how this post is worded and think that childish may have been a better word for me to use than cartoonish. I do think that many of the elements in these cosmetics are things found in cartoons, but it's more the fact that they are so childish that bothers me. Besides the general discomfort they cause.

I just want to know why.

katanagirl1 · March 24

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

Well when I see how childish the game has become over the past few years like for example the scribbing quest with that talking fox or the other quests where we have animals talking with a childish tone.

Then there are some of the crown store items like the dancer personality and such and those over the top animations like some of the emotes being offered.

The game is aimed at adults and yet the content is childish these days.

Ugh, I had forgotten those quests until you mentioned it. I guess I was trying to block it out of my memory. Those voices were definitely cartoony, they didn’t fit this game at all and truthfully none of the scribing content did. Tons of people here said how much they liked it though. I don’t get it.

AScarlato · March 24

katanagirl1 wrote: »

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

Well when I see how childish the game has become over the past few years like for example the scribbing quest with that talking fox or the other quests where we have animals talking with a childish tone.

Then there are some of the crown store items like the dancer personality and such and those over the top animations like some of the emotes being offered.

The game is aimed at adults and yet the content is childish these days.

Ugh, I had forgotten those quests until you mentioned it. I guess I was trying to block it out of my memory. Those voices were definitely cartoony, they didn’t fit this game at all and truthfully none of the scribing content did. Tons of people here said how much they liked it though. I don’t get it.

Despite the childish side character, I found the breakdown in the marriage and drifting apart between Shalidor and Ulfsild to be very compelling. I was recently going through something similar at the time and it touched me, personally.

twisttop138 · March 24

katanagirl1 wrote: »

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

Well when I see how childish the game has become over the past few years like for example the scribbing quest with that talking fox or the other quests where we have animals talking with a childish tone.

Then there are some of the crown store items like the dancer personality and such and those over the top animations like some of the emotes being offered.

The game is aimed at adults and yet the content is childish these days.

Ugh, I had forgotten those quests until you mentioned it. I guess I was trying to block it out of my memory. Those voices were definitely cartoony, they didn’t fit this game at all and truthfully none of the scribing content did. Tons of people here said how much they liked it though. I don’t get it.

Not everyone likes the same stuff. The part of me that's a dad thought the fix was cute, though I'm with Tom of Hyrule, I'd take a grimdark quest line any day. But, despite what people keep saying about the ES tone and the setting, Zos is going to try to appeal to the largest audience. This will make some of us unhappy. Maybe keeping everything like it was in 2014 would be a real hit or maybe it wouldn't. Probably wouldn't. We'll never know.

katanagirl1 · March 24

AScarlato wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

Well when I see how childish the game has become over the past few years like for example the scribbing quest with that talking fox or the other quests where we have animals talking with a childish tone.

Then there are some of the crown store items like the dancer personality and such and those over the top animations like some of the emotes being offered.

The game is aimed at adults and yet the content is childish these days.

Ugh, I had forgotten those quests until you mentioned it. I guess I was trying to block it out of my memory. Those voices were definitely cartoony, they didn’t fit this game at all and truthfully none of the scribing content did. Tons of people here said how much they liked it though. I don’t get it.

Despite the childish side character, I found the breakdown in the marriage and drifting apart between Shalidor and Ulfsild to be very compelling. I was recently going through something similar at the time and it touched me, personally.

Yes the story was good but the packaging for it just wasn’t ESO.

SilverBride · March 24

twisttop138 wrote: »

Not everyone likes the same stuff. The part of me that's a dad thought the fix was cute, though I'm with Tom of Hyrule, I'd take a grimdark quest line any day. But, despite what people keep saying about the ES tone and the setting, Zos is going to try to appeal to the largest audience. This will make some of us unhappy. Maybe keeping everything like it was in 2014 would be a real hit or maybe it wouldn't. Probably wouldn't. We'll never know.

How do we know that those who like loud and flashy effects are the largest audience? The number of posts in this thread alone that feel like ESO is moving away from what it once was tells me that is not the case.

whitecrow · March 24

I liked the scribing fox but I am partial to foxes.

BretonMage · March 24

I sometimes wonder if all this comes across as a bit condescending to the younger generation. Surely you don't have to be so obviously juvenile to try to reach them. These aren't 8 year olds, they're very savvy, very connected teenagers. You don't have to talk like a smurf, or have rainbow confetti-exploding horses to get their attention.

nightbringer1993 · March 24

ZOS seriously needs to review their actual audience and act based on it.

Once again this game is aimed at adults, not kids. There “might” be some actions from ZOS concerning the game but I believe they are still failing at doing this and as a result players are leaving, which is a shame.

Eporem · March 24

katanagirl1 wrote: »

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

Well when I see how childish the game has become over the past few years like for example the scribbing quest with that talking fox or the other quests where we have animals talking with a childish tone.

Then there are some of the crown store items like the dancer personality and such and those over the top animations like some of the emotes being offered.

The game is aimed at adults and yet the content is childish these days.

Ugh, I had forgotten those quests until you mentioned it. I guess I was trying to block it out of my memory. Those voices were definitely cartoony, they didn’t fit this game at all and truthfully none of the scribing content did. Tons of people here said how much they liked it though. I don’t get it.

I really enjoyed the scribing quests and all the lore that came with it, I don't think to have noticed much how the Fox sounded but I do think to have heard it laugh everytime I fell off the bridge..
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Fox

whitecrow · March 24

Eporem wrote: »

I really enjoyed the scribing quests and all the lore that came with it, I don't think to have noticed much how the Fox sounded but I do think to have heard it laugh everytime I fell off the bridge..
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Fox

Ha! I'm not sure if I noticed that.