Why is everything becoming more cartoony?

twisttop138 · March 20

AScarlato wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SNIP

AllenaNightWood wrote: »

Yeah...no thirst-trapping being sold as Apex Crown Crate outfits in ESO here...

No Yaasified outfits like the feather-butt costume that was also an Apex reward in another crate.

I feel like what they're saying, and I could be wrong, is that ZOS gonna Zos. That stuff sells and they need to make money. No matter how many 2 billion dollars they made, MS expects each of their studios to have a certain amount of revenue. The game has varied players and tastes. The popularity of these items speaks for itself. They wouldn't sell it if it didn't sell. Regardless of if I like it or not and there is many things don't care for.

Also, not to be old but I have no idea what yaasified means. We truly do learn something new every day.

They brought up that point in a paragraph about "other games are worse" and then had examples that ZOS actually does. That's my point.

These costumes are very mild compared to the Chinese and Korean free-to-play scene.

But the larger point remains: money talks and free-to-play walks. Vanilla enjoyers need to rival the sales of the large and deep-pocketed Celestial horse crowd in order to speak the language that ZOS understands - money.

There are Celestial horse whales spending big on the game. Are there brown horse enjoyers doing the same? Given recent trends, I think that we can infer the answer. We might not like that answer but the folks that spend money on the game are the ones keeping the servers running for the rest of us.

My preference would have been for a monthly WoW-style sub, rather than Crates and a cash shop, to fund the game but that ship has long since sailed away.

God a sub only game. I could almost imagine how good it would be. I remember this, like many MMOs of that time, being billed as the WoW killer. I'd argue this game is superior in some ways, of course it could learn a lot in others.

I still pay my sub for XIV and in the end I have spent WAY less having a sub for 12 years in XIV than I have in 6 years of ESO. And it's still getting full expansions.

I really wish this was still a sub game. I know it struggled at launch though, and going Buy to Play must have really worked out for them with how many things they can do with FOMO and Loot Boxes and be defended by their players for it.

Yeah I wish it had stayed a sub game. How different things could've been. I was lucky or unlucky enough, depending on how you see it, to have been here at launch of the game. People hyped it way way to much. The wow killer they called it. It wasn't. My guild went back to swtor. It wasn't till console launch that I gave it a try and it hooked me. The game it is today could be a sub game. Not in 2014.

You're right though. They would never give this up. The money is too much. I don't see it as defending them. Just that for everyone that dislikes the crown store flashy stuff, there seems to be 10 that like it. That's the other reason this couldn't be a sub game. To casual friendly. Too many people love to log in, play house and dress up, maybe do a quest and that's it and they're willing to spend to make their elemental dunmer mage have a winged bear that shoots fire from its eyes and a skin that sparkles. I'm saying they're not wrong for liking that even if I wanna puke.
Now Zos will lean even more into that because they need to sell tomes. I'd argue, if they can get the writing back in order, pump out some long good quests, have this new stuff they're talking about be really good (new system, rumors, favors, dynamic events) and the trial is good, then it's worth it.

scrappy1342 · March 20

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

These costumes are very mild compared to the Chinese and Korean free-to-play scene.

But the larger point remains: money talks and free-to-play walks. Vanilla enjoyers need to rival the sales of the large and deep-pocketed Celestial horse crowd in order to speak the language that ZOS understands - money.

There are Celestial horse whales spending big on the game. Are there brown horse enjoyers doing the same? Given recent trends, I think that we can infer the answer. We might not like that answer but the folks that spend money on the game are the ones keeping the servers running for the rest of us.

My preference would have been for a monthly WoW-style sub, rather than Crates and a cash shop, to fund the game but that ship has long since sailed away.

absolutely. if ppl weren't buying these things you would NEVER see them and it would not be an issue. (other than the weapon skill thing currently being forced, but they are fixing that)

totally agree on the settings issues. other games have had these for years. i've never fiddled with them, but i'm glad they are at least working on it for those who need it

Syldras · March 21

Talking about visuals, the zones themselves really are no problem, from my point of view. Building interiors in Sunport were a little empty and generic somehow, but generally, I enjoyed the zone design, as always (of course we can debate if having the same Altmer architecture style for Solstice as for Summerset makes sense, or if the Nord village really needed to have that architecture style - and many of its inhabitants wearing fur clothing, including thick fur-lined boots - while situated on a tropical island, but that's a different discussion and clearly a question of lore).

The issue are really the cash shop items. Even if one would declare them non-canon, it still wouldn't change the fact that one comes across them while playing the game, which in some situations can completely break the immersion. And even worse are cosmetics that have rather extreme visuals and sound effects, that are actually disruptive to the whole game experience - making it impossible to see a scripted scene during a quest, or to listen to a quest npc, for example. From my point of view, it should be an important design principle for cosmetics never to cause such problems.

I do understand the wish (and need) to sell items to the players, of course, and I understand that flashy seems to sell well (though we can argue we can't even say for sure if less flashy would sell less well - I don't see many non-flashy items in the store, so even if people wanted to buy non-flashy, there's barely any offers for that). But I wish more care would have been shown to the question what might be too flashy - to the extent that it might actually be a disturbance for other players, or diminishes the game experience itself (I also still think it would have been possible to create appealing and extraordinary designs while keeping closer to the lore and without going for huge explosion effects).

Honestly, it's not even just about "flashy" for me. It's about the game experience in general. Visuals and sound are one aspect of that - if everything sparkles, explodes or makes loud noises, it takes away from (story) events where intense visuals and sound effects would normally have a meaning and be a strong factor that builds the whole atmosphere (What effect does a dolmen still have on a new player who has already seen 5 of them being used as teleport animations before even leaving the first city?). But it's not just that. I'm also questioning if it's a good idea so basically trivialize important assets of the stories/lore by making them a cosmetic item that might show up everywhere, including in random towns, out of context. What effect does Molag Bal have if one sees several mini versions of him standing in the bank or fighting at a dolmen? Does it make sense for that fictional world that random people would be able to dress up as a dark elf deity (with a very unique attire that immediately makes one think of this deity, who is absolutely sacred for a whole culture)? It takes away the uniqueness that one felt when one actually came across these things in the stories.

Anyway, thinking more about it, there's actually also some aspects, in story design (so outside of the cash shop) where I got the feeling that TES lore played the lesser role, in favor of appealing to... trends, I guess? This creature, for example, was basically just putting a meme into the game:
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Beast
I'm not even sure where it originated, but there's thousands of meme pictures in the past few years about exactly that: a sloth with a wizard hat. Can we clearly say if that quest creature refered to this meme? Not for sure, of course, but it surely felt random somehow, let alone that neither wizard hats are a big thing in Tamriel (they only showed up at the crown store at some point, and then, rarely, were actually added to the world years later, on a few npcs - but TES actually never had that "wizards wear big hats" cliché), nor enchanted clothing items randomly casting destruction spells. And add to that the other cases of meme-y writing, or... well, we're at language and writing again. But this is also a facet of the game where the focus, sadly, increasingly often seems to be less on adding meaningfully to the existing world and lore of TES, but on trying to reach new players through things that are just generally popular in fiction right now. Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against adding new things to the lore, but they should make sense for this fictional world and its cultures.

ToddIngram · March 21

SilverBride wrote: »

Why is everything becoming more cartoony? What is the reason for this trend? It didn't used to be like this. ESO used to be the most realistic game I had ever played and I loved that about it. It was so much more immersive when we were represented as realistic players in a realistic world.

Now everything is bright and loud and flashy. Why?

Cartoons are bright and loud and flashy for a reason. They are created for children who have short attention spans. They need constant motion and loud noises and bright lights to keep them watching. But children aren't the target audience of this game made for adults. So why is it being presented this way?

Something caused this trend to happen and I'd like some insight into why. Because it is destroying the experience for many of us.

Short answer is cosmetics are the only things the remaining players care about. Look at the forum requests peppering this forum. No longer is anyone discussing performance and combat performance improvements. It's only people talking about housing, what companion they want to see next, what costume, what dye, what skill style, ToT and "fashion is the true endgame", what cosmetics will be in what clown crate etc. nonsense.

Essentially all the players wanting actual game improvements have given up and left the game and/or been forced off the forum.

Vaqual · March 21

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Why is everything becoming more cartoony? What is the reason for this trend? It didn't used to be like this. ESO used to be the most realistic game I had ever played and I loved that about it. It was so much more immersive when we were represented as realistic players in a realistic world.

Now everything is bright and loud and flashy. Why?

Cartoons are bright and loud and flashy for a reason. They are created for children who have short attention spans. They need constant motion and loud noises and bright lights to keep them watching. But children aren't the target audience of this game made for adults. So why is it being presented this way?

Something caused this trend to happen and I'd like some insight into why. Because it is destroying the experience for many of us.

Short answer is cosmetics are the only things the remaining players care about. Look at the forum requests peppering this forum. No longer is anyone discussing performance and combat performance improvements. It's only people talking about housing, what companion they want to see next, what costume, what dye, what skill style, ToT and "fashion is the true endgame", what cosmetics will be in what clown crate etc. nonsense.

Essentially all the players wanting actual game improvements have given up and left the game and/or been forced off the forum.

Step out of your bubble.

Arunei · March 21

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Why is everything becoming more cartoony? What is the reason for this trend? It didn't used to be like this. ESO used to be the most realistic game I had ever played and I loved that about it. It was so much more immersive when we were represented as realistic players in a realistic world.

Now everything is bright and loud and flashy. Why?

Cartoons are bright and loud and flashy for a reason. They are created for children who have short attention spans. They need constant motion and loud noises and bright lights to keep them watching. But children aren't the target audience of this game made for adults. So why is it being presented this way?

Something caused this trend to happen and I'd like some insight into why. Because it is destroying the experience for many of us.

Short answer is cosmetics are the only things the remaining players care about. Look at the forum requests peppering this forum. No longer is anyone discussing performance and combat performance improvements. It's only people talking about housing, what companion they want to see next, what costume, what dye, what skill style, ToT and "fashion is the true endgame", what cosmetics will be in what clown crate etc. nonsense.

Essentially all the players wanting actual game improvements have given up and left the game and/or been forced off the forum.

Uh, plenty of people are talking about combat and numerous other parts of the game, just look at literally any of the other threads on the first few pages. People are talking about PvP, about the writing, about the French translations, a LOT about the DK overhaul and balancing and Subclassing, about Class Mastery Passives and speculation on other Class reworks and WW changes, and that's just to name a few. Literally none of that is about cosmetics, you're cherry-picking threads that are about them but that doesn't really work when someone can just look through the very first page of the forums.

That being said, stuff gets added because people buy it. Like I said, these things have been added to ESO starting all the way back in 2016. Why were they added if no one asked for them? Because it's an MMO, and I'm sure the devs had at least some idea there are a number of people who play MMOs that like flashier things. Which is obviously the case, seeing as plenty of these types of things are selling when they get released. They wouldn't waste the time and resources of modeling and rigging and coding them if they didn't.

On the topic of immersion, if what other people do or have genuinely makes it hard for someone to enjoy the story or take the world seriously...perhaaaaaaps a genre of game with the words Massively Multi-player in it isn't the best option? You can love a franchise and want to experience every game in it, that's completely fine, but at the same time one needs to keep in mind the fact that you're going to have to accept other people will play differently and do things you find immersion breaking. That doesn't mean there's some fundamental problem with the game itself, that's just how MMOs work.

In regards to lore and X or Y not existing outside of ESO (in terms of things like Quasigriffs for example), Dragon Breaks are a thing. Maybe the timeline in Skyrim (the game lol) is one where a Dragon Break ended and the reality that got "chosen" so to speak is one where they don't actually exist. But then again maybe they COULD exist in other parts of Tamriel and we never see any in Skyrim because we never leave it and they're rare enough lore-wise thay no NPCs would have them.

Syldras · March 21

Arunei wrote: »

On the topic of immersion, if what other people do or have genuinely makes it hard for someone to enjoy the story or take the world seriously...perhaaaaaaps a genre of game with the words Massively Multi-player in it isn't the best option? You can love a franchise and want to experience every game in it, that's completely fine, but at the same time one needs to keep in mind the fact that you're going to have to accept other people will play differently and do things you find immersion breaking. That doesn't mean there's some fundamental problem with the game itself, that's just how MMOs work.

As I've written in this thread before, I'm absolutely aware that an MMO means there will be other people around, and some of them might be weirdly dressed or ride some more unusual mount (like a lava/atronach senche, for example). That's how it was in ESO's earlier years. It wasn't exactly immersive, but I could accept it just fine, as it wasn't that hard to ignore.

But now we've gone from orcs in pink armor riding lava creatures, to mounts that, when summoned, explode in a bright flash of light that whites out the screen of every person near them (including the whole dialogue screen if you're currently talking to an npc), or mini dolmens making that loud vacuum cleaner drone sound (which was, before this teleport thing had been introduced, a clear auditory indicator that told you "Oh, there's a dolmen nearby and it's just starting" - it was an actual hint on an event going on in the game, it had a meaning) at any random location. Is there anyone who can still be immersed in the game world if there's random explosions and dolmen sounds everywhere? I don't know.

I'm not even blaming the people who use these things, I question if it's wise to introduce such cosmetics into a game, that honestly disturb the actual game content's visual and acoustic design. Why build such a detailed and vast world, have background sounds that differ from biome to biome (they're beautiful, actually, if one pays attention to them) and ambient music, and then break the carefully created atmosphere by random explosions and drone sounds?

I do understand very well that an MMO gains a big part of its revenue through selling cosmetics. The thing I'm talking about is the aspect of balance. Basically: What can be introduced as cosmetics, and would sell well, without negatively influencing the game experience too much? Of course they need to sell items - but do they need so sell mounts with loud and flashy explosions? Would interesting mounts without explosions not sell?

It is a choice how much care goes into preserving the lore and the atmosphere of the fictional world. And when it comes to that, sadly, I got the impression over the past few years, that "selling whatever sells" had a higher priority than "preserving the game's fundamental atmosphere".

Elvenheart · March 21

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Why is everything becoming more cartoony? What is the reason for this trend? It didn't used to be like this. ESO used to be the most realistic game I had ever played and I loved that about it. It was so much more immersive when we were represented as realistic players in a realistic world.

Now everything is bright and loud and flashy. Why?

Cartoons are bright and loud and flashy for a reason. They are created for children who have short attention spans. They need constant motion and loud noises and bright lights to keep them watching. But children aren't the target audience of this game made for adults. So why is it being presented this way?

Something caused this trend to happen and I'd like some insight into why. Because it is destroying the experience for many of us.

Short answer is cosmetics are the only things the remaining players care about. Look at the forum requests peppering this forum. No longer is anyone discussing performance and combat performance improvements. It's only people talking about housing, what companion they want to see next, what costume, what dye, what skill style, ToT and "fashion is the true endgame", what cosmetics will be in what clown crate etc. nonsense.

Essentially all the players wanting actual game improvements have given up and left the game and/or been forced off the forum.

On top of the other responses, people who want combat improvements and more content and bug fixes are not mutually exclusive from people who like cosmetics. I am in the category that wants both, and I would think that would be the largest category. And because I like some cosmetics does not mean I like all the cosmetics that we are being offered or that I like the direction the cosmetics in the game are being taken.

Eporem · March 21

that is a bit unfair what was mentioned on the topic of immersion - that a genre of a game with the words massively multiplayer in it is not the best option - when ESO is described as a MMORPG set within the Elder Scrolls universe.

BagOfBadgers · March 21

Why is everything becoming more cartoony? Revenue & Peacocking (and I’m not saying Peacocking is a totally bad thing, freedom and all that).

What can you do about it?

Ask ZOS for a method for the effects to be reduced, which is in the pipeline.

Base yourself away from populations to do crafting and the like, so less chance of having to endure Peacocking (a method I use).

Accept that this is ESO now, or move on to another means of entertainment.

There is the president of ZOS doing something to help people with visual effect issues, as they turned down the lightning strikes in The Deadlands. That was a simple fix. I can’t see a simple fix for all the issues brought up in the thread besides the coming option of reduction in effects. I can’t reasonably see what else ZOS can do, sorry.

Flight of fancy thinking, maybe there could be an ESO original effects instance made, BUT there is a cost and would ZOS take that hit, alas, I don’t think so.

Open question to all affected. Would you pay extra for a “Vanilla” instance, e.g. no effects and skill styles (If this is even possible, I have no clue how it would work, I mean Dungeons/Trials/PvP and the like would be a nightmare)?

I do think some effects have gotten out of hand, but, it is what it is and each to their own.

SilverBride · March 21

These things wouldn't sell if they never existed in the first place. I never saw players asking for exploding bright lights for their mounts and recalls, so why were they introduced? Where did the idea come from that players wanted these cosmetic nightmares? Something caused this change in direction, but it wasn't because they were selling, because they didn't exist yet.

Elvenheart · March 21

SilverBride wrote: »

These things wouldn't sell if they never existed in the first place. I never saw players asking for exploding bright lights for their mounts and recalls, so why were they introduced? Where did the idea come from that players wanted these cosmetic nightmares? Something caused this change in direction, but it wasn't because they were selling, because they didn't exist yet.

My guess is that the marketing department saw these type of things selling in other games and copied them.

I agree about not liking the current direction, I can still remember when I started cringing when I started seeing certain things in the game, and lately I’ve been cringing more and more.

SilverBride · March 21

Elvenheart wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

These things wouldn't sell if they never existed in the first place. I never saw players asking for exploding bright lights for their mounts and recalls, so why were they introduced? Where did the idea come from that players wanted these cosmetic nightmares? Something caused this change in direction, but it wasn't because they were selling, because they didn't exist yet.

My guess is that the marketing department saw these type of things selling in other games and copied them.

You may be right but this makes no sense to me from a marketing standpoint. If a game is successful (which ESO was) and is doing its own thing rather than being just a copy of what every other game is doing (which ESO was) then that would be a draw for new players that the other games don't have... it's uniqueness.

YandereGirlfriend · March 21

SilverBride wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

These things wouldn't sell if they never existed in the first place. I never saw players asking for exploding bright lights for their mounts and recalls, so why were they introduced? Where did the idea come from that players wanted these cosmetic nightmares? Something caused this change in direction, but it wasn't because they were selling, because they didn't exist yet.

My guess is that the marketing department saw these type of things selling in other games and copied them.

You may be right but this makes no sense to me from a marketing standpoint. If a game is successful (which ESO was) and is doing its own thing rather than being just a copy of what every other game is doing (which ESO was) then that would be a draw for new players that the other games don't have... it's uniqueness.

That portion of me died a long time ago but I vaguely recollect feeling that way at one point.

I remember following the early years of ESO and being like, "Oh, cool, they added Glass armor and weapons, nice..." and wondering what they would do when they inevitably ran out of "canon" material types to make equipment pieces out of.

Eventually, did run out and had to start inventing new materials with very tenuous claims to existence outside of, "This looks cool and we need something new" which is when I gave into my preexisting bias that the game was a lore free-for-all zone justifying anything and everything under the guise of... "But Dragonbreak!"

By the time that I started actually playing during Summerset I didn't care anymore. The game is an MMO not a "real" TES game and I can't be bothered to ponder the lore-appropriateness of a Flame Atronach Kagouti Cub. That seems like a colossal waste of time. It is also a losing battle.

ESO is firmly in the "rule of cool" zone now. If it looks cool - then it's in. If it looks cool - people will buy it. The cooler it looks, the more that people will spend. This is fairly axiomatic.

There is only so much that you can charge for a brown horse. Or a palfrey. Or a palomino. Or any "normal" type of horse. Of course, there are normal horse appreciators who will spend a bit for them. But can you make a plain Arabian horse a Radiant Apex mount? No.

IMO, folk should direct their ire at Crates because that is the mechanism that set the cosmetics arms race into motion. Crates cost crazy money for what they are and you have to convince folk to spend that crazy money on them. An Arabian horse, no matter how well-modeled, just isn't going to do that. As long as Crates are a thing the arms race will never discontinue.

This probably never happens if the game had maintained its sub. But free-to-play is as free-to-play does.

SilverBride · March 21

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ESO is firmly in the "rule of cool" zone now. If it looks cool - then it's in. If it looks cool - people will buy it. The cooler it looks, the more that people will spend. This is fairly axiomatic.

One man's "cool" is another man's nightmare.

As I once heard someone say "Cool can also mean not so hot."

YandereGirlfriend · March 21

SilverBride wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ESO is firmly in the "rule of cool" zone now. If it looks cool - then it's in. If it looks cool - people will buy it. The cooler it looks, the more that people will spend. This is fairly axiomatic.

One man's "cool" is another man's nightmare.

As I once heard someone say "Cool can also mean not so hot.

Clearly.

But I suggest that folk should make peace with it nonetheless. Because they aren't going to retroactively delete the animations and SFX from Radiant Apex mounts, etc. that have already been sold.

A robust Effects Slider and perhaps a free "base game animation skill style pack" is the most realistic and reasonable compromise.

SilverBride · March 21

They said no slider so it will be a preset option. I just hope it's a very strong option and not just dimming the lights a little.

twisttop138 · March 21

Syldras wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

On the topic of immersion, if what other people do or have genuinely makes it hard for someone to enjoy the story or take the world seriously...perhaaaaaaps a genre of game with the words Massively Multi-player in it isn't the best option? You can love a franchise and want to experience every game in it, that's completely fine, but at the same time one needs to keep in mind the fact that you're going to have to accept other people will play differently and do things you find immersion breaking. That doesn't mean there's some fundamental problem with the game itself, that's just how MMOs work.

As I've written in this thread before, I'm absolutely aware that an MMO means there will be other people around, and some of them might be weirdly dressed or ride some more unusual mount (like a lava/atronach senche, for example). That's how it was in ESO's earlier years. It wasn't exactly immersive, but I could accept it just fine, as it wasn't that hard to ignore.

But now we've gone from orcs in pink armor riding lava creatures, to mounts that, when summoned, explode in a bright flash of light that whites out the screen of every person near them (including the whole dialogue screen if you're currently talking to an npc), or mini dolmens making that loud vacuum cleaner drone sound (which was, before this teleport thing had been introduced, a clear auditory indicator that told you "Oh, there's a dolmen nearby and it's just starting" - it was an actual hint on an event going on in the game, it had a meaning) at any random location. Is there anyone who can still be immersed in the game world if there's random explosions and dolmen sounds everywhere? I don't know.

I'm not even blaming the people who use these things, I question if it's wise to introduce such cosmetics into a game, that honestly disturb the actual game content's visual and acoustic design. Why build such a detailed and vast world, have background sounds that differ from biome to biome (they're beautiful, actually, if one pays attention to them) and ambient music, and then break the carefully created atmosphere by random explosions and drone sounds?

I do understand very well that an MMO gains a big part of its revenue through selling cosmetics. The thing I'm talking about is the aspect of balance. Basically: What can be introduced as cosmetics, and would sell well, without negatively influencing the game experience too much? Of course they need to sell items - but do they need so sell mounts with loud and flashy explosions? Would interesting mounts without explosions not sell?

It is a choice how much care goes into preserving the lore and the atmosphere of the fictional world. And when it comes to that, sadly, I got the impression over the past few years, that "selling whatever sells" had a higher priority than "preserving the game's fundamental atmosphere".

I'm very sure that interesting mounts without explosions sell. I know this because every crate season has them. Even the one that released this week has multiple non flashy mounts. So I would argue both are popular and sell well. As well as plain costumes, which I love. So I think it's fair to argue they're doing both things to appeal to a wider audience of people. Even though things may have been more understated before, I think the need to reach the widest number of people and get them to open their wallets has won out. We can only decide for ourselves when and what is too much to continue. This is the thing about MMOs. Immersion kinda takes a back seat these days in the name of profit, and will only become more pronounced as all new content is free and people will need to be tempted into tomes.

Edit. I wanted to also mention a bug conversation in a guild discord right now about the new mounts. It was many people's opinion that the mount up animation makes or breaks a mount for them. The mounts that have an interesting animation were considered to be the ones most worth it. Some folks like one thing, some another. Hopefully this new option makes it so you don't have to see them but we'll see. That's the best advertisement.

SilverBride · March 21

I keep reading that bright loud items are bringing in revenue but is it more than the crown store items that aren't cartoony? We have no way to know.

BretonMage · March 22

twisttop138 wrote: »

Even though things may have been more understated before, I think the need to reach the widest number of people and get them to open their wallets has won out. We can only decide for ourselves when and what is too much to continue. This is the thing about MMOs. Immersion kinda takes a back seat these days in the name of profit, and will only become more pronounced as all new content is free and people will need to be tempted into tomes.

I would understand if they didn't already have an established and successful IP as their foundation. This is what I can't wrap my head around: all these sparkling pink mounts are the antithesis of the Elder Scrolls aesthetic. They must surely be aware that they are eroding the Elder Scrolls image with all these improbably colourful collectibles; so must Bethesda. Why isn't anyone trying to protect its image? Couldn't all this have an impact on the single-player TES series?

Some folks like one thing, some another. Hopefully this new option makes it so you don't have to see them but we'll see.

I wish we could selectively ignore certain mounts and skill styles altogether. I like some of the brighter crown mounts, but some are just ridiculous.

shadyjane62 · March 22

Still riding the plain grey cat that was a gift from game. I despise all the cosmetic stuff and it is a pain the butt to have to wait for the FX to go away.

Some of us till playing the game.

Perhaps not for much longer.

AvalonRanger · March 22

Just I don't like those mount creatures are making loud noise and flash everywhere around town.

ADarklore · March 22

BretonMage wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

Even though things may have been more understated before, I think the need to reach the widest number of people and get them to open their wallets has won out. We can only decide for ourselves when and what is too much to continue. This is the thing about MMOs. Immersion kinda takes a back seat these days in the name of profit, and will only become more pronounced as all new content is free and people will need to be tempted into tomes.

I would understand if they didn't already have an established and successful IP as their foundation. This is what I can't wrap my head around: all these sparkling pink mounts are the antithesis of the Elder Scrolls aesthetic. They must surely be aware that they are eroding the Elder Scrolls image with all these improbably colourful collectibles; so must Bethesda. Why isn't anyone trying to protect its image? Couldn't all this have an impact on the single-player TES series?

Some folks like one thing, some another. Hopefully this new option makes it so you don't have to see them but we'll see.

I wish we could selectively ignore certain mounts and skill styles altogether. I like some of the brighter crown mounts, but some are just ridiculous.

Your statement (bolded) seems to forget that a great many players are not playing because of 'Elder Scrolls lore' but are simply enjoying this 'fantasy-based online game'. I wonder how many of these ES fans will abandon ESO the moment ES6 comes out, but it's the non-ES fans that will continue playing ESO. And yes, all these changes could impact ES6 and beyond, well, look at what became of Dragon Age: Veilguard. I would think, based on the people they have working on ES6 who are completely separate from ZOS, wouldn't go that route... but I never thought I'd see BioWare go the route it did with the DA series either, which was due to interference from EA. Yet, with Microsoft now in charge of Bethesda, who knows what's going on behind the scenes.

Muizer · March 22

And to think the next story content will feature Sheogorath. The floodgates will open .....

Eporem · March 22

ADarklore wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

Even though things may have been more understated before, I think the need to reach the widest number of people and get them to open their wallets has won out. We can only decide for ourselves when and what is too much to continue. This is the thing about MMOs. Immersion kinda takes a back seat these days in the name of profit, and will only become more pronounced as all new content is free and people will need to be tempted into tomes.

I would understand if they didn't already have an established and successful IP as their foundation. This is what I can't wrap my head around: all these sparkling pink mounts are the antithesis of the Elder Scrolls aesthetic. They must surely be aware that they are eroding the Elder Scrolls image with all these improbably colourful collectibles; so must Bethesda. Why isn't anyone trying to protect its image? Couldn't all this have an impact on the single-player TES series?

Some folks like one thing, some another. Hopefully this new option makes it so you don't have to see them but we'll see.

I wish we could selectively ignore certain mounts and skill styles altogether. I like some of the brighter crown mounts, but some are just ridiculous.

Your statement (bolded) seems to forget that a great many players are not playing because of 'Elder Scrolls lore' but are simply enjoying this 'fantasy-based online game'. I wonder how many of these ES fans will abandon ESO the moment ES6 comes out, but it's the non-ES fans that will continue playing ESO. And yes, all these changes could impact ES6 and beyond, well, look at what became of Dragon Age: Veilguard. I would think, based on the people they have working on ES6 who are completely separate from ZOS, wouldn't go that route... but I never thought I'd see BioWare go the route it did with the DA series either, which was due to interference from EA. Yet, with Microsoft now in charge of Bethesda, who knows what's going on behind the scenes.

For me I cannot fathom how a game can be played without any lore or the stories written – what would be the purpose of such a game – or however would this be played without the lore guiding or making sense to what you do – are there any games that do not include lore or stories written that would not explain the essence of the game itself.

Yudo · March 22

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

I always thought mounts were one thing. But now there is neon pink skill style that shoot celestial fireworks of glitter. I think I discovered my limit on what is too much.

Every person I show this to asks if it is a skin, sooo... Wait for it! XD

A skin would be passable at least imo. Skill styles have been nice and a few of them actually very creative.
But what does this one have anything to do with a sorcerer? IDK, to me it feels like a step too far to alter the style completely with something else not directly related to the class. In the end I'll probably look past it but the initial shock is there.

Besides I hope they redo lightning form all together during rework and get rid of the transparency, Will be interesting how these styles evolve (or not).

The point is to not look like a Sorcerer at all. It may technically be a Sorcerer skill, but someone who doesn't want to look like a Sorcerer (but instead likes the theme of these Celestial skill styles, including the one made for Fatecarver) could make a thematic build around using them.

Seriously, this skill style looks really good. It kind of sucks that it still does Shock or Physical Damage, but it looks like a different kind of magic than elemental magic, and I'm here for it.

I actually found out the stamina morph is looking much more grounded, while the base version and magicka morph have the shooting fireworks. The stamina one is actually pretty nice for what you describe, while the magicka I find over the top for my taste. Just cannot look at it, and I only play magicka version. Bummer

colossalvoids · March 22

ADarklore wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

Even though things may have been more understated before, I think the need to reach the widest number of people and get them to open their wallets has won out. We can only decide for ourselves when and what is too much to continue. This is the thing about MMOs. Immersion kinda takes a back seat these days in the name of profit, and will only become more pronounced as all new content is free and people will need to be tempted into tomes.

I would understand if they didn't already have an established and successful IP as their foundation. This is what I can't wrap my head around: all these sparkling pink mounts are the antithesis of the Elder Scrolls aesthetic. They must surely be aware that they are eroding the Elder Scrolls image with all these improbably colourful collectibles; so must Bethesda. Why isn't anyone trying to protect its image? Couldn't all this have an impact on the single-player TES series?

Some folks like one thing, some another. Hopefully this new option makes it so you don't have to see them but we'll see.

I wish we could selectively ignore certain mounts and skill styles altogether. I like some of the brighter crown mounts, but some are just ridiculous.

Your statement (bolded) seems to forget that a great many players are not playing because of 'Elder Scrolls lore' but are simply enjoying this 'fantasy-based online game'. I wonder how many of these ES fans will abandon ESO the moment ES6 comes out, but it's the non-ES fans that will continue playing ESO. And yes, all these changes could impact ES6 and beyond, well, look at what became of Dragon Age: Veilguard. I would think, based on the people they have working on ES6 who are completely separate from ZOS, wouldn't go that route... but I never thought I'd see BioWare go the route it did with the DA series either, which was due to interference from EA. Yet, with Microsoft now in charge of Bethesda, who knows what's going on behind the scenes.

Even elder scrolls players aren't a solid unit at that. That's why most people who still play have the game that's completely overhauled visually and ones that don't either a small subset of purists or ones who afraid of modding as it can screw their game up as they don't have an ability to troubleshoot and correct their mistakes. Visual part seems also less important as of every new game stirs away from the old looks of previous titles and doesn't really hold a unified look. Personally, aesthetically Skyrim was the blandest of all modern ones and Morrowind was the richest one despite its graphical fidelity for a time. Oblivion was pretty charming, let's put it that way.

We're also playing in an older historical period where the magic was still actively present instead of a steadily being eroded by societies progress (or regress in that particular case), attempts to control and classify it. Personally all the cash shop things aren't really crossing the borders yet and trying to at least partially fit in the world of ESO, but surely most are quite alien to the modern single player titles as of now, looking how Beth is going about putting ESO stuff in Skyrim via paid mods and Oblivion remastered it's kinda expected to have even more of that in the next main line title. But the visual part is the last thing for ES fans to worry, honestly.

BretonMage · March 22

ADarklore wrote: »

Your statement (bolded) seems to forget that a great many players are not playing because of 'Elder Scrolls lore' but are simply enjoying this 'fantasy-based online game'. I wonder how many of these ES fans will abandon ESO the moment ES6 comes out, but it's the non-ES fans that will continue playing ESO.

Why would they abandon ESO? Will the TES fans take a short break to play ES6? Most likely, yes. Will they come back to ESO, to the world they were a part of for so long? Also, most likely, yes. Unlike the single-player TES games, ESO is regularly updated with new content. Our meticulously decorated homes are here, our communities are here. There is always a reason to come back. I never intended to abandon ESO.

Well, unless, of course, it has become Generic Garish Fantasy MMO no. 8 or whatever.

And yes, all these changes could impact ES6 and beyond, well, look at what became of Dragon Age: Veilguard. I would think, based on the people they have working on ES6 who are completely separate from ZOS, wouldn't go that route... but I never thought I'd see BioWare go the route it did with the DA series either, which was due to interference from EA. Yet, with Microsoft now in charge of Bethesda, who knows what's going on behind the scenes.

Yeah... I seriously hope that what EA did to Dragon Age serves as a cautionary tale in the industry. But who knows.

Syldras · March 22

twisttop138 wrote: »

I wanted to also mention a bug conversation in a guild discord right now about the new mounts. It was many people's opinion that the mount up animation makes or breaks a mount for them. The mounts that have an interesting animation were considered to be the ones most worth it.

And I know a few people who found a mount design interesting, but decided against buying it specifically because they disliked the summoning animation being a huge explosion (people don't exactly want to get migraines from summoning their own mount). I've also seen some mount once where even I, despite usually not being interested in cosmetics much, thought it would be a nice addition to my playthroughs for a longer time, so buying it might be worth it - but then it had some glowy effects permanently floating around it, which I found annoying, so I dropped that idea. Without the effects I would have bought it.

In the end, everyone likes different things, but I still think introducing mounts with extremely obtrusive effects that greatly affect the environment and all players around was not good in terms of design. I understand that especially apex mounts are supposed to be eye-catching, and to make people who see them on another player want to buy them too, but if some effects are seen as an annoyance by a bigger number of players, that makes them avoid crowded game locations, and in the end make them play the game less, then something went wrong. At some point, it's just "too eye-catching", and not in a positive way.

tomofhyrule · March 22

colossalvoids wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

Even though things may have been more understated before, I think the need to reach the widest number of people and get them to open their wallets has won out. We can only decide for ourselves when and what is too much to continue. This is the thing about MMOs. Immersion kinda takes a back seat these days in the name of profit, and will only become more pronounced as all new content is free and people will need to be tempted into tomes.

I would understand if they didn't already have an established and successful IP as their foundation. This is what I can't wrap my head around: all these sparkling pink mounts are the antithesis of the Elder Scrolls aesthetic. They must surely be aware that they are eroding the Elder Scrolls image with all these improbably colourful collectibles; so must Bethesda. Why isn't anyone trying to protect its image? Couldn't all this have an impact on the single-player TES series?

Some folks like one thing, some another. Hopefully this new option makes it so you don't have to see them but we'll see.

I wish we could selectively ignore certain mounts and skill styles altogether. I like some of the brighter crown mounts, but some are just ridiculous.

Your statement (bolded) seems to forget that a great many players are not playing because of 'Elder Scrolls lore' but are simply enjoying this 'fantasy-based online game'. I wonder how many of these ES fans will abandon ESO the moment ES6 comes out, but it's the non-ES fans that will continue playing ESO. And yes, all these changes could impact ES6 and beyond, well, look at what became of Dragon Age: Veilguard. I would think, based on the people they have working on ES6 who are completely separate from ZOS, wouldn't go that route... but I never thought I'd see BioWare go the route it did with the DA series either, which was due to interference from EA. Yet, with Microsoft now in charge of Bethesda, who knows what's going on behind the scenes.

Even elder scrolls players aren't a solid unit at that. That's why most people who still play have the game that's completely overhauled visually and ones that don't either a small subset of purists or ones who afraid of modding as it can screw their game up as they don't have an ability to troubleshoot and correct their mistakes. Visual part seems also less important as of every new game stirs away from the old looks of previous titles and doesn't really hold a unified look. Personally, aesthetically Skyrim was the blandest of all modern ones and Morrowind was the richest one despite its graphical fidelity for a time. Oblivion was pretty charming, let's put it that way.

This is also a major factor. Elder Scrolls fans, like most things, are not a monolith.

I don't like flashy stuff, but I'm not going to rage about it. I know other fans of Elder Scrolls who think it's great - one of the players I run with all the time, who has been a major player on the UESP since before this game released, saw the Celestial Lightning Form and immediately said "oh, I need that." Meanwhile, we have people on the forums who are super hard core on the lore and want everything correct who say "I play the same character in every game and I explain it by just inventing Dragon Breaks to explain how it's the same character."

After all, I enjoy the lore so much that for every character, I need minimum 9 months to perfect their looks, their fashions, research and write a full backstory of miminum 6.5 pages. I know a lot of people who don't put nearly that effort into their characters. Are we to say that a person who can't be bothered to make a story beyond "This is my Imperial" is a better fan than someone who says "I have over a year of research into various lorebooks and esoterica and can fully explain why my character, who is the brother of an NPC in a specific questline, ended up becoming an avatar of Morihaus and that's why he's a minotaur" (which by the way is actually one of my backstories that I can't use yet because I need an Artificer class for him first).

This even holds outside of this fanbase. For me personally, I still think Skyrim was the best looking game since I love that aesthetic and the grittiness. I also was one of those people who thought Zelda: Twilight Princess was the best looking one by far and I can't even with the Toon aesthetic from Wind Waker. Other Zelda fans are the other way. Are any of us wrong? No. It's personal preference.

I fully agree with ESO's "play the way you want" mantra. What I don't agree with is the people who are coming out to the forums to complain "you aren't allowed to play the way you want because that goes against the way I want."