PTS Update 49 - Feedback Thread for Night Market

Maitsukas · February 26

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Why close the Night Market on PTS?

code65536 · February 26

Maitsukas wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Why close the Night Market on PTS?

Yea, we've known from the start that it would close in late February, but that doesn't answer the question of "why".

I think there's some value in having NM stay up until the next PTS at least. Not for feedback, but for personal testing. E.g., what if someone wanted to write a guide and wanted to check the accuracy of some details or get some footage? Or maybe someone wanted to write an addon and would like to be able to test it before NM goes live in late April.

coop500 · February 26

Yeah I don't really understand taking it down either, it's odd.

shadoza · February 28

Rkindaleft wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbPdpXs4JHg

Mods: I think this is essential feedback. Please don't action me because of the thumbnail text. It is not my video.

I watched it fully, as I watch some videos from this content creator - while I haven't tested Night Market myself, in the video it's made the statement that soloing through Arc3 of Infinite Archive doesn't make you a veteran but just average.
I'd say that looking at % of players that got IA achievements, the average player never even entered IA.
I have nothing against that content creator or his opinion, but if I was a Dev and heard such a statement knowing the reality of the player base (which they know, not me nor us) I wouldn't pay much attention to opinions coming from a point of view that seems biased.

That said, anyone has the right to express it's own opinion and having everyone giving feedback, both hardcore players and "newbies", is good for the general health and both should be taken in consideration. Keep feedback coming, you kind testers!

Yes, I sadly believe people have a very skewed idea on the general game's population, and it appears the devs have no plans to address it either. Not even raising the 36 player limit is bonkers to me.

I'm also surprised by some of the mean-spirited posts that have been allowed to stay up, the ones that clearly are trying to silence other players, including though not limited to that video.

People are bothered because people don't want the Night Market balanced around average solo players who don't want to group and who don't want to bring a strong and viable build suited for the content (I.E Pale Order if they want to solo).

By the dev's own admission, they want the Night Market to be challenging to incentivize grouping. That should imply the content would be very difficult to solo unless you're a skilled player with a good build. If you're not, they heavily advise you to group up to be successful.

"We do want this content to be challenging, so players are encouraged to group and the content feels suitably rewarding for groups." This is the developer vision of the content, it's right there in the screenshot. Anyone is free to give feedback, but there's a lot of feedback complaining about the difficulty when they go in solo, and again this goes against the developer vision of the Night Market, because its designed to be difficult to solo.

I do agree the 36 player limit will probably cause problems.

I think you do not understand what the average player is up against. They do not have what you consider "viable" and they don't want to be FORCED into group play.

The same people that want this zone to be too difficult for solo players are the same people that want the overland made difficult for them? Balance is necessary across the game or the game will fall down. Focusing new content on just part of the player base is going to impact the population.

Soarora · February 28

shadoza wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbPdpXs4JHg

Mods: I think this is essential feedback. Please don't action me because of the thumbnail text. It is not my video.

I watched it fully, as I watch some videos from this content creator - while I haven't tested Night Market myself, in the video it's made the statement that soloing through Arc3 of Infinite Archive doesn't make you a veteran but just average.
I'd say that looking at % of players that got IA achievements, the average player never even entered IA.
I have nothing against that content creator or his opinion, but if I was a Dev and heard such a statement knowing the reality of the player base (which they know, not me nor us) I wouldn't pay much attention to opinions coming from a point of view that seems biased.

That said, anyone has the right to express it's own opinion and having everyone giving feedback, both hardcore players and "newbies", is good for the general health and both should be taken in consideration. Keep feedback coming, you kind testers!

Yes, I sadly believe people have a very skewed idea on the general game's population, and it appears the devs have no plans to address it either. Not even raising the 36 player limit is bonkers to me.

I'm also surprised by some of the mean-spirited posts that have been allowed to stay up, the ones that clearly are trying to silence other players, including though not limited to that video.

People are bothered because people don't want the Night Market balanced around average solo players who don't want to group and who don't want to bring a strong and viable build suited for the content (I.E Pale Order if they want to solo).

By the dev's own admission, they want the Night Market to be challenging to incentivize grouping. That should imply the content would be very difficult to solo unless you're a skilled player with a good build. If you're not, they heavily advise you to group up to be successful.

"We do want this content to be challenging, so players are encouraged to group and the content feels suitably rewarding for groups." This is the developer vision of the content, it's right there in the screenshot. Anyone is free to give feedback, but there's a lot of feedback complaining about the difficulty when they go in solo, and again this goes against the developer vision of the Night Market, because its designed to be difficult to solo.

I do agree the 36 player limit will probably cause problems.

I think you do not understand what the average player is up against. They do not have what you consider "viable" and they don't want to be FORCED into group play.

The same people that want this zone to be too difficult for solo players are the same people that want the overland made difficult for them? Balance is necessary across the game or the game will fall down. Focusing new content on just part of the player base is going to impact the population.

But no one complains when a new trial comes out and isn't soloable? Are group players just not allowed to have new content now? Reminder that solo versions of dungeons are coming later this year...

Enemoriana · March 1

Soarora wrote: »

But no one complains when a new trial comes out and isn't soloable? Are group players just not allowed to have new content now? Reminder that solo versions of dungeons are coming later this year...

But this is not trial. It was not claimed as veteran organized group content and it is not designed so.
It was claimed as event zone and is designed as event, with basic part should-be available for all and hard part for more hardcore players.

Also nobody ask to solo all NM. Night Market is more than just mobs! It is asked not to remove all that group can do, but to add what average player without group can do, because there was nothing. Trash mobs will be nothing for group of veteran player, they'll melt in second, but are gatekeeping those who are by any reason not able to go in most flooded time or play 1-2 dlc-requiring specific builds.
Nothing will change for hardcore group players if trash mob pack will melt in 0.5 sec instead of 1 sec. It was already claimed by several people mobs are very easy for them.

What is not fair about everybody having access for dailies and hardcore players getting requiring organized group bosses?

Soarora · March 1

Enemoriana wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

But no one complains when a new trial comes out and isn't soloable? Are group players just not allowed to have new content now? Reminder that solo versions of dungeons are coming later this year...

But this is not trial. It was not claimed as veteran organized group content and it is not designed so.
It was claimed as event zone and is designed as event, with basic part should-be available for all and hard part for more hardcore players.

Also nobody ask to solo all NM. Night Market is more than just mobs! It is asked not to remove all that group can do, but to add what average player without group can do, because there was nothing. Trash mobs will be nothing for group of veteran player, they'll melt in second, but are gatekeeping those who are by any reason not able to go in most flooded time or play 1-2 dlc-requiring specific builds.
Nothing will change for hardcore group players if trash mob pack will melt in 0.5 sec instead of 1 sec. It was already claimed by several people mobs are very easy for them.

What is not fair about everybody having access for dailies and hardcore players getting requiring organized group bosses?

It was implied to be group content by the comments of "you can try to solo it, but good luck (and comparing it to trying to solo a trial)" and commenting that solo players would need to follow a group, all statements of which were in the reveal stream iirc. I do think they should have just straight-up said that it's a group zone that will require hard or soft grouping and that solo players can try but should not expect success in.

I will, however, still take accountability for my salt. I understand that currently people just want to solo the trash, which I think most groups will end up just avoiding anyways (on PTS, we killed a few and then ended up running through/around a lot of them). I do think that the game needs more hard checks to encourage people to upgrade their build and personal skill since right now it's a big difficulty spike between overland/normal and vet/HM, with very little guidance from the game on how to improve in both build and skill (we really need some good in-game tutorials). But that is not where the salt stems from, it stems from frustration with toxic casuals (not all casuals) and with the concept that group content cannot be made "too" difficult because of what the "average" player can accomplish. With no dungeons this year, this is the only thing the dungeon community has and thus difficulty is a massive topic-- we totally thought it was going to be an easy snoozefest because of common misconception that ZOS "caters to casuals", thus seeing what would be our content for the year nerfed would be incredibly hurtful. But I'm pleased that it's only a nerf to trash and that there may be HMs for the dungeons/trial later on and I recognize that it's not fair to want something "just for us" when we have our hard modes already (albeit DLCs tend to be "one is hard" and "one is easy", but the harder release has been getting increasingly harder). So, anyways, I apologize for my needless biased aggression. The fear that ZOS would nerf Night Market to the ground seems to be thankfully baseless.

Enemoriana · March 1

Soarora wrote: »

It was implied to be group content by the comments of "you can try to solo it, but good luck (and comparing it to trying to solo a trial)" and commenting that solo players would need to follow a group, all statements of which were in the reveal stream iirc. I do think they should have just straight-up said that it's a group zone that will require hard or soft grouping and that solo players can try but should not expect success in.

It was said that players may need to group, and that it is more difficult than usually, yes.
But...
Group content is very different in ESO.
There are normal and vet dungeons, normal and vet trials. Base one and from dlc are also different. There are worldbosses and incursions. All this suppose to group, and many players will have to. DLC questgivers even says directly that you may want not to go alone.
What was expected for lower line of difficulty? Something like dlc normal dungeon/base vet/normal trial. That would be more diffucult, and still available to everybody.

I tried NM on first (with copy of my current build) and second (actual character) weeks. Then I tried different content on live. Solo with companion everywhere. And... NM trash mobs was killing me faster, than vet trial mobs. And that for time-limited event where is quite a little chance to have 12 players in district? Feels not right. I did at least some normal dlc and base vet dungeons solo easier than daily for killing mobs on NM. Not killing boss and doing all the NM! Just thing that is supposed to be easiest on NM.
Maybe someone else experience is another. But for me it were most difficult trash mobs in game. With absolutely nothing to do in main new feature until summer. Just-dialogue-to-claim house with unlocking doors walled behind that level of difficulty feels like mockery.

If it was given as "we have new type of trial this year, here is house as final rewards for hardcore players for doing it, here are some easy pursuits for everybody at the same time" - it would be ok, I'd have no complaints. But it wasn't so. Problem is not only difficulty itself - problem is that it fails to meet expectations and works differently from everything else in the game.

Pcgamer · March 1

Fyi this is a newer forums account but im actually a vet player, pre launch so ive been playing th8s game for a very long time and this is what i've noticed. I have 2 eso accounts btw.

1. You are getting feedback from a minority group of players that frequent the forums and not all players participate in the pts. This limits the feedback and does not clearly represent the majority of players

2. The majority of your player base do not succeed in vet hm content...perhaps the easier base game hm vet dungeons but not anything above that.

3. Be listening to the very few that frequent these forums you will get the hardcore players views, opinions.

4. The night market will be too difficult for the majoritynof players and it will just end up being only played by a few groups.

5. If you keep catering to these minority groups then eso population will only keep going down sadly.

coop500 · March 1

Pcgamer wrote: »

Fyi this is a newer forums account but im actually a vet player, pre launch so ive been playing th8s game for a very long time and this is what i've noticed. I have 2 eso accounts btw.

1. You are getting feedback from a minority group of players that frequent the forums and not all players participate in the pts. This limits the feedback and does not clearly represent the majority of players

2. The majority of your player base do not succeed in vet hm content...perhaps the easier base game hm vet dungeons but not anything above that.

3. Be listening to the very few that frequent these forums you will get the hardcore players views, opinions.

4. The night market will be too difficult for the majoritynof players and it will just end up being only played by a few groups.

5. If you keep catering to these minority groups then eso population will only keep going down sadly.

Yes, 100% this, all of this. The PTS will naturally lean towards PC only hardcore players, so of course the 'majority' is okay with it (and even that's debatable)

The average playerbase WILL fold instantly on these trash mobs. They're not just a little bit more difficult to encourage learning more about the game, which actually would have been cool and refreshing to see. Instead, no, you're taking the average overland quester and tossing them right into the vet DLC trial pit BY THEMSELVES because 90% of players are going to check out the content solo before grouping up.

There is a happy medium to be found here, specifically with the trash mobs. Bosses requiring grouping is fine, that's the point. Same with the actual trial and dungeon in the night market.

But the average base enemies that the Night Market introduces to you should simply NOT be this difficult. A steep incline would be more preferable to this jagged cliff.

Emeratis · March 2

Pcgamer wrote: »

Fyi this is a newer forums account but im actually a vet player, pre launch so ive been playing th8s game for a very long time and this is what i've noticed. I have 2 eso accounts btw.

1. You are getting feedback from a minority group of players that frequent the forums and not all players participate in the pts. This limits the feedback and does not clearly represent the majority of players

2. The majority of your player base do not succeed in vet hm content...perhaps the easier base game hm vet dungeons but not anything above that.

3. Be listening to the very few that frequent these forums you will get the hardcore players views, opinions.

4. The night market will be too difficult for the majoritynof players and it will just end up being only played by a few groups.

5. If you keep catering to these minority groups then eso population will only keep going down sadly.

I wasn't really an active forum member either until recently but now that the feedback pipeline is better, I'm trying to be more active and contribute as best I can. I agree with some of this but I want to counterpoint a few things. If you mean hardcore players in the passionate about the game sense you are correct. If you mean hardcore players on skill level, you are only partially correct. I admit, I probably fit both criteria of what I just described, but I also am not completely out of touch with the casual playerbase of the game which is why I expressed some concerns in some of my earlier posts in this thread. I agree with your point of the forums are a small sample size of the full playerbase and there are people that are underrepresented heavily in the forums, but I also think you underestimate how that bias is slanted somewhat.

Also, the boxes we use to define players do not always neatly fit and are not always a binary. I consider myself to be very lore/story/rp/fashion driven but in game I am often either doing hm/tri group content or gleefully wandering around overland harvesting and getting treasure maps and surveys and doing cozy gaming overland. Most hardcore players would find me too casual, most casual players find me too hardcore. I am not the only player in these forums or in game that has this weird situation.

I haven't weighed in since the pts closed or Night Market closed but I feel minor tweaks to the Night Market over dramatic changes is a better option. There are some other QOL things they can do to make it feel better as well. I can understand concerns on how difficult it is for the average player, but I also do not want to see it nerfed into the ground either. Basically, I hope that the balance team uses finesse instead of the hammer and nail approach on tweaking things before live. Also to point out a sentiment from earlier in the thread: more/less damage/health is not necessarily a rewarding metric of challenge. Combat that is engaging and interesting mechanically is something I personally prefer.

At the end of the day, even taking everyone into account they can't please everyone but I think they can do better at smoothing over the tensions and conflicting wants/needs of everyone. Also we can do better in our forums discourse to be more mindful of players who aren't like us or aren't what we assume.

code65536 · March 2

In case anyone is curious...
This is the reward for "winning" the Night Market...

Yea, I don't think players are going to care. At least not enough to justify the prominence of the score in the UI.

Emeratis · March 2

Yea, I did wonder/guess but those rewards are...disappointing. People here brainstormed more interesting and rewarding rewards. Makes me sad because I like pretty much everything else for the Night Market and will still do it out of my own enjoyment but would be nice to have a reward I could be excited about.

code65536 · 12:01AM

Emeratis wrote: »

Yea, I did wonder/guess but those rewards are...disappointing. People here brainstormed more interesting and rewarding rewards. Makes me sad because I like pretty much everything else for the Night Market and will still do it out of my own enjoyment but would be nice to have a reward I could be excited about.

So, if they made the rewards really good, then it'll upset the people who don't "win" the Night Market, since at the end it's really just whichever faction has the most population. I would be upset if, by the time the market closes, it turns out that a decision that I made on day 1 happens to be the "wrong" decision.

But if the rewards are unexciting, then people are left wondering, "So what's the point of having score in the first place?"

I get that having three factions is a bit like a callback to how the overall game itself has three factions. But in Cyrodiil, the objectives are clear, and you are explicitly competing against other factions. In the Night Market, there's no clear objective and you aren't even competing because everyone is working together. I'm going to group with my friends, and I'm not going to care that I'm potentially "helping the enemy" if they happen to be of a different faction.

To be clear, I'm not saying that the lack of competition is a bad thing: I think it would be a worse experience if competition was enforced by making it so that you could only work with people in your own faction. But that lack of competition makes the score-keeping pretty pointless. (Yes, this is really just another post complaining about how so much of the prime HUD UI space is devoted to a score-keeping widget whose existence doesn't seem to be well-justified.)

shadoza · 2:18AM

Soarora wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

But no one complains when a new trial comes out and isn't soloable? Are group players just not allowed to have new content now? Reminder that solo versions of dungeons are coming later this year...

But this is not trial. It was not claimed as veteran organized group content and it is not designed so.
It was claimed as event zone and is designed as event, with basic part should-be available for all and hard part for more hardcore players.

Also nobody ask to solo all NM. Night Market is more than just mobs! It is asked not to remove all that group can do, but to add what average player without group can do, because there was nothing. Trash mobs will be nothing for group of veteran player, they'll melt in second, but are gatekeeping those who are by any reason not able to go in most flooded time or play 1-2 dlc-requiring specific builds.
Nothing will change for hardcore group players if trash mob pack will melt in 0.5 sec instead of 1 sec. It was already claimed by several people mobs are very easy for them.

What is not fair about everybody having access for dailies and hardcore players getting requiring organized group bosses?

It was implied to be group content by the comments of "you can try to solo it, but good luck (and comparing it to trying to solo a trial)" and commenting that solo players would need to follow a group, all statements of which were in the reveal stream iirc. I do think they should have just straight-up said that it's a group zone that will require hard or soft grouping and that solo players can try but should not expect success in.

I will, however, still take accountability for my salt. I understand that currently people just want to solo the trash, which I think most groups will end up just avoiding anyways (on PTS, we killed a few and then ended up running through/around a lot of them). I do think that the game needs more hard checks to encourage people to upgrade their build and personal skill since right now it's a big difficulty spike between overland/normal and vet/HM, with very little guidance from the game on how to improve in both build and skill (we really need some good in-game tutorials). But that is not where the salt stems from, it stems from frustration with toxic casuals (not all casuals) and with the concept that group content cannot be made "too" difficult because of what the "average" player can accomplish. With no dungeons this year, this is the only thing the dungeon community has and thus difficulty is a massive topic-- we totally thought it was going to be an easy snoozefest because of common misconception that ZOS "caters to casuals", thus seeing what would be our content for the year nerfed would be incredibly hurtful. But I'm pleased that it's only a nerf to trash and that there may be HMs for the dungeons/trial later on and I recognize that it's not fair to want something "just for us" when we have our hard modes already (albeit DLCs tend to be "one is hard" and "one is easy", but the harder release has been getting increasingly harder). So, anyways, I apologize for my needless biased aggression. The fear that ZOS would nerf Night Market to the ground seems to be thankfully baseless.

You are saying you think the development should create gear requirements for content?
I disagree.
I disagree that any player should be forced to play a specific way even if it is a requirement to do group content in order to continue playing because of gear requirements.
I disagree that casual players are demanding the nerfs. I believe that would be steadfast min/max-ers that don't want to reset their 'god' build when something new came out.
Consider that the only content that a group cannot play is the solo instance from the Harborage story. There is plenty of content that a solo-runner or casual player cannot play. Attempting to force them to play your way is going to push them out of the game, taking their money with them; then, the cost of development will become more of an issue because there will be less to fund it.
my opinion

Emeratis · 3:41AM

code65536 wrote: »

Emeratis wrote: »

Yea, I did wonder/guess but those rewards are...disappointing. People here brainstormed more interesting and rewarding rewards. Makes me sad because I like pretty much everything else for the Night Market and will still do it out of my own enjoyment but would be nice to have a reward I could be excited about.

So, if they made the rewards really good, then it'll upset the people who don't "win" the Night Market, since at the end it's really just whichever faction has the most population. I would be upset if, by the time the market closes, it turns out that a decision that I made on day 1 happens to be the "wrong" decision.

But if the rewards are unexciting, then people are left wondering, "So what's the point of having score in the first place?"

I get that having three factions is a bit like a callback to how the overall game itself has three factions. But in Cyrodiil, the objectives are clear, and you are explicitly competing against other factions. In the Night Market, there's no clear objective and you aren't even competing because everyone is working together. I'm going to group with my friends, and I'm not going to care that I'm potentially "helping the enemy" if they happen to be of a different faction.

To be clear, I'm not saying that the lack of competition is a bad thing: I think it would be a worse experience if competition was enforced by making it so that you could only work with people in your own faction. But that lack of competition makes the score-keeping pretty pointless. (Yes, this is really just another post complaining about how so much of the prime HUD UI space is devoted to a score-keeping widget whose existence doesn't seem to be well-justified.)

Yeah, that's fair. I suggested in another thread though something like a bundle grab bag of rare recipes or something would have been more exciting for me. It doesn't have to be something that makes the losers feel bad, just something a bit more fun/interesting is what I personally was asking for to be more clear. I do find the collaborative and competitive theme of the night market to be a fun balancing act and they could do some fun things with it but I absolutely agree with you that they need to be mindful of not tipping too far into making it feel too competitive. I just want something a little more flavorful and I think that wouldn't make things too awkward.

McHina · 6:29AM

couriersix wrote: »

It's VERY difficult. It feels like if you don't have an organized group of a tank, healer, and two decent DPS then you will struggle a lot since enemies do so much damage. Dying is pretty punishing, since it separates you from your group and can make it difficult to regroup, especially since sometimes people are sent across to different wayshrines.

That's it