PTS Update 49 - Feedback Thread for Night Market

Maitsukas · February 26

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Why close the Night Market on PTS?

code65536 · February 26

Maitsukas wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Why close the Night Market on PTS?

Yea, we've known from the start that it would close in late February, but that doesn't answer the question of "why".

I think there's some value in having NM stay up until the next PTS at least. Not for feedback, but for personal testing. E.g., what if someone wanted to write a guide and wanted to check the accuracy of some details or get some footage? Or maybe someone wanted to write an addon and would like to be able to test it before NM goes live in late April.

coop500 · February 26

Yeah I don't really understand taking it down either, it's odd.

shadoza · February 28

Rkindaleft wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbPdpXs4JHg

Mods: I think this is essential feedback. Please don't action me because of the thumbnail text. It is not my video.

I watched it fully, as I watch some videos from this content creator - while I haven't tested Night Market myself, in the video it's made the statement that soloing through Arc3 of Infinite Archive doesn't make you a veteran but just average.
I'd say that looking at % of players that got IA achievements, the average player never even entered IA.
I have nothing against that content creator or his opinion, but if I was a Dev and heard such a statement knowing the reality of the player base (which they know, not me nor us) I wouldn't pay much attention to opinions coming from a point of view that seems biased.

That said, anyone has the right to express it's own opinion and having everyone giving feedback, both hardcore players and "newbies", is good for the general health and both should be taken in consideration. Keep feedback coming, you kind testers!

Yes, I sadly believe people have a very skewed idea on the general game's population, and it appears the devs have no plans to address it either. Not even raising the 36 player limit is bonkers to me.

I'm also surprised by some of the mean-spirited posts that have been allowed to stay up, the ones that clearly are trying to silence other players, including though not limited to that video.

People are bothered because people don't want the Night Market balanced around average solo players who don't want to group and who don't want to bring a strong and viable build suited for the content (I.E Pale Order if they want to solo).

By the dev's own admission, they want the Night Market to be challenging to incentivize grouping. That should imply the content would be very difficult to solo unless you're a skilled player with a good build. If you're not, they heavily advise you to group up to be successful.

"We do want this content to be challenging, so players are encouraged to group and the content feels suitably rewarding for groups." This is the developer vision of the content, it's right there in the screenshot. Anyone is free to give feedback, but there's a lot of feedback complaining about the difficulty when they go in solo, and again this goes against the developer vision of the Night Market, because its designed to be difficult to solo.

I do agree the 36 player limit will probably cause problems.

I think you do not understand what the average player is up against. They do not have what you consider "viable" and they don't want to be FORCED into group play.

The same people that want this zone to be too difficult for solo players are the same people that want the overland made difficult for them? Balance is necessary across the game or the game will fall down. Focusing new content on just part of the player base is going to impact the population.

Soarora · February 28

shadoza wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbPdpXs4JHg

Mods: I think this is essential feedback. Please don't action me because of the thumbnail text. It is not my video.

I watched it fully, as I watch some videos from this content creator - while I haven't tested Night Market myself, in the video it's made the statement that soloing through Arc3 of Infinite Archive doesn't make you a veteran but just average.
I'd say that looking at % of players that got IA achievements, the average player never even entered IA.
I have nothing against that content creator or his opinion, but if I was a Dev and heard such a statement knowing the reality of the player base (which they know, not me nor us) I wouldn't pay much attention to opinions coming from a point of view that seems biased.

That said, anyone has the right to express it's own opinion and having everyone giving feedback, both hardcore players and "newbies", is good for the general health and both should be taken in consideration. Keep feedback coming, you kind testers!

Yes, I sadly believe people have a very skewed idea on the general game's population, and it appears the devs have no plans to address it either. Not even raising the 36 player limit is bonkers to me.

I'm also surprised by some of the mean-spirited posts that have been allowed to stay up, the ones that clearly are trying to silence other players, including though not limited to that video.

People are bothered because people don't want the Night Market balanced around average solo players who don't want to group and who don't want to bring a strong and viable build suited for the content (I.E Pale Order if they want to solo).

By the dev's own admission, they want the Night Market to be challenging to incentivize grouping. That should imply the content would be very difficult to solo unless you're a skilled player with a good build. If you're not, they heavily advise you to group up to be successful.

"We do want this content to be challenging, so players are encouraged to group and the content feels suitably rewarding for groups." This is the developer vision of the content, it's right there in the screenshot. Anyone is free to give feedback, but there's a lot of feedback complaining about the difficulty when they go in solo, and again this goes against the developer vision of the Night Market, because its designed to be difficult to solo.

I do agree the 36 player limit will probably cause problems.

I think you do not understand what the average player is up against. They do not have what you consider "viable" and they don't want to be FORCED into group play.

The same people that want this zone to be too difficult for solo players are the same people that want the overland made difficult for them? Balance is necessary across the game or the game will fall down. Focusing new content on just part of the player base is going to impact the population.

But no one complains when a new trial comes out and isn't soloable? Are group players just not allowed to have new content now? Reminder that solo versions of dungeons are coming later this year...

Enemoriana · 12:32AM

Soarora wrote: »

But no one complains when a new trial comes out and isn't soloable? Are group players just not allowed to have new content now? Reminder that solo versions of dungeons are coming later this year...

But this is not trial. It was not claimed as veteran organized group content and it is not designed so.
It was claimed as event zone and is designed as event, with basic part should-be available for all and hard part for more hardcore players.

Also nobody ask to solo all NM. Night Market is more than just mobs! It is asked not to remove all that group can do, but to add what average player without group can do, because there was nothing. Trash mobs will be nothing for group of veteran player, they'll melt in second, but are gatekeeping those who are by any reason not able to go in most flooded time or play 1-2 dlc-requiring specific builds.
Nothing will change for hardcore group players if trash mob pack will melt in 0.5 sec instead of 1 sec. It was already claimed by several people mobs are very easy for them.

What is not fair about everybody having access for dailies and hardcore players getting requiring organized group bosses?

Soarora · 3:33AM

Enemoriana wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

But no one complains when a new trial comes out and isn't soloable? Are group players just not allowed to have new content now? Reminder that solo versions of dungeons are coming later this year...

But this is not trial. It was not claimed as veteran organized group content and it is not designed so.
It was claimed as event zone and is designed as event, with basic part should-be available for all and hard part for more hardcore players.

Also nobody ask to solo all NM. Night Market is more than just mobs! It is asked not to remove all that group can do, but to add what average player without group can do, because there was nothing. Trash mobs will be nothing for group of veteran player, they'll melt in second, but are gatekeeping those who are by any reason not able to go in most flooded time or play 1-2 dlc-requiring specific builds.
Nothing will change for hardcore group players if trash mob pack will melt in 0.5 sec instead of 1 sec. It was already claimed by several people mobs are very easy for them.

What is not fair about everybody having access for dailies and hardcore players getting requiring organized group bosses?

It was implied to be group content by the comments of "you can try to solo it, but good luck (and comparing it to trying to solo a trial)" and commenting that solo players would need to follow a group, all statements of which were in the reveal stream iirc. I do think they should have just straight-up said that it's a group zone that will require hard or soft grouping and that solo players can try but should not expect success in.

I will, however, still take accountability for my salt. I understand that currently people just want to solo the trash, which I think most groups will end up just avoiding anyways (on PTS, we killed a few and then ended up running through/around a lot of them). I do think that the game needs more hard checks to encourage people to upgrade their build and personal skill since right now it's a big difficulty spike between overland/normal and vet/HM, with very little guidance from the game on how to improve in both build and skill (we really need some good in-game tutorials). But that is not where the salt stems from, it stems from frustration with toxic casuals (not all casuals) and with the concept that group content cannot be made "too" difficult because of what the "average" player can accomplish. With no dungeons this year, this is the only thing the dungeon community has and thus difficulty is a massive topic-- we totally thought it was going to be an easy snoozefest because of common misconception that ZOS "caters to casuals", thus seeing what would be our content for the year nerfed would be incredibly hurtful. But I'm pleased that it's only a nerf to trash and that there may be HMs for the dungeons/trial later on and I recognize that it's not fair to want something "just for us" when we have our hard modes already (albeit DLCs tend to be "one is hard" and "one is easy", but the harder release has been getting increasingly harder). So, anyways, I apologize for my needless biased aggression. The fear that ZOS would nerf Night Market to the ground seems to be thankfully baseless.

Enemoriana · 4:18AM

Soarora wrote: »

It was implied to be group content by the comments of "you can try to solo it, but good luck (and comparing it to trying to solo a trial)" and commenting that solo players would need to follow a group, all statements of which were in the reveal stream iirc. I do think they should have just straight-up said that it's a group zone that will require hard or soft grouping and that solo players can try but should not expect success in.

It was said that players may need to group, and that it is more difficult than usually, yes.
But...
Group content is very different in ESO.
There are normal and vet dungeons, normal and vet trials. Base one and from dlc are also different. There are worldbosses and incursions. All this suppose to group, and many players will have to. DLC questgivers even says directly that you may want not to go alone.
What was expected for lower line of difficulty? Something like dlc normal dungeon/base vet/normal trial. That would be more diffucult, and still available to everybody.

I tried NM on first (with copy of my current build) and second (actual character) weeks. Then I tried different content on live. Solo with companion everywhere. And... NM trash mobs was killing me faster, than vet trial mobs. And that for time-limited event where is quite a little chance to have 12 players in district? Feels not right. I did at least some normal dlc and base vet dungeons solo easier than daily for killing mobs on NM. Not killing boss and doing all the NM! Just thing that is supposed to be easiest on NM.
Maybe someone else experience is another. But for me it were most difficult trash mobs in game. With absolutely nothing to do in main new feature until summer. Just-dialogue-to-claim house with unlocking doors walled behind that level of difficulty feels like mockery.

If it was given as "we have new type of trial this year, here is house as final rewards for hardcore players for doing it, here are some easy pursuits for everybody at the same time" - it would be ok, I'd have no complaints. But it wasn't so. Problem is not only difficulty itself - problem is that it fails to meet expectations and works differently from everything else in the game.