Official Discussion Thread for "Developer Deep Dive—Season Zero’s Challenge Difficulty

HatchetHaro · January 23

To be honest, I wasn't expecting there to be three whole additional difficulty levels, and I can't quite put my finger on why, but it seems worse than just adding in one "veteran" difficulty level, no?

With this much control over the difficulty levels already to cater to different players' playstyles, why not just make it a granular system that the players themselves can control, with one slider each for plus damage taken and minus damage dealt? Having more dynamic control over their challenge experience can give players the option to, for example, tune down damage dealt by 90% while only tuning up damage taken by 50%.

Tariq9898 · January 23

HatchetHaro wrote: »

To be honest, I wasn't expecting there to be three whole additional difficulty levels, and I can't quite put my finger on why, but it seems worse than just adding in one "veteran" difficulty level, no?

With this much control over the difficulty levels already to cater to different players' playstyles, why not just make it a granular system that the players themselves can control, with one slider each for plus damage taken and minus damage dealt? Having more dynamic control over their challenge experience can give players the option to, for example, tune down damage dealt by 90% while only tuning up damage taken by 50%.

Having 3 levels is much more accessible for different players and play styles than just having Normal and Vet. I personally may not be satisfied with just Vet, fearing that it might still be too easy for my personal taste.

That said, a slider wouldn’t be a bad option.

ESO_player123 · January 23

VixxVexx wrote: »

Unless there are unique rewards, I don't see the point in some extra xp and gold. We're still just getting a set piece we already have.

Maybe you should start rewarding unique set pieces like a weapon with a health enchant or some armor set piece with a jewelery enchant. Some of these are already in game. Imagine killing a mini-boss at the end of a long questline and you get a gold chest piece that has a weapon damage enchant on it, instead of a normal armor glyph.

The questlines that we currently have are not repeatable. Should people just create new toons for these experiences?

colossalvoids · January 23

First, we are making a choice to make sure players are not separated by difficulty.

As someone on a hiatus this part made me uninterested in trying the first iteration out. Glad there's a consideration of the idea of difficulty though, maybe one day.

Tra_Lalan · January 23

This system is great and it is needed.

But, not spliting players on different difficulty levels just makes it not work.

Player A - strugling at Vestige level, fighting WB, Delve boss, mobs or whatever
Player B comes in on adventure mode and one shots every mob, kills WB easily.

How does this make Player A feel? Is he satisfied with his game? Did he get the overland difficulty he asked for years?

mocap · January 23

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

Player A - strugling at Vestige level, fighting WB, Delve boss, mobs or whatever
Player B comes in on adventure mode and one shots every mob, kills WB easily.

This mostly happens in the first two starter zones. Beyond those, I rarely see anyone. In DLC locations, you can't find a soul even if you look for them. But overall, the idea is right and something needs to be done about it — vet players with Vestige difficulty will basically look like noobs compared to those hitting your boss without that mode, lol.

Faulgor · January 23

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Based on feedback from various in-person events and player discussions, we believe starting with experience and gold is a good way to gauge player engagement.

I think that's a terrible way to gauge player engagement - I can already predict very few will use this, because I've seen this before. People don't spend time on things they feel don't reward their time, and taking at least 5 times as long to get twice the exp won't compel people to do this for a significant amount of time.
We went through this with old Craglorn, and I'd rather we didn't have to repeat that lesson.

I'll make a point to use this so the system isn't abandoned, but I really hope you'll add more rewards down the line.
(Wouldn't trade bars make a good reward in some fashion? The store for possible goodies is already there, and nobody is locked out of any rewards if they don't want to play at a higher difficulty.)

The idea is to add more rewards down the line. Right now, we want to make sure we see how folks use the system while we work to refine and build out the system. I think the core takeaway from us is, this is a starting point, not the final update to the system.

But again, totally understand your point here and will make sure folks on the team see this. Just so they know thoughts on rewards.

Thanks for your reply!

If there is indeed a commitment to develop the system further, it might actually be a good starting point after all.
Ideally, if the tech is there, we should see a Golden Pursuit for a week or two to get more people into the system, see what issues arise with possible abuse and risk/reward balance, and go from there. In case there are bigger (unforseen) issues, I see the value in not starting with amazing rewards on day one. I know there'll be a PTS cycle, but live is always a little bit different, right?

As far as rewards go, and as much as I love achievements that grant specific collectibles and dyes and such, I think a type of currency like trade bars or a new one alltogether would be the best approach.

The good thing about currency-based reward systems like Tel Var or Archival Fortunes is that nobody is locked out of rewards if they can't complete content at a designated level (like Perfected arena/trial gear, monster masks or specific achievements), you'll just go a bit slower but are incentivized to get better.
Currently, there is an immense gap in difficulty between the bulk of the game's content, overland, and harder content like veteran dungeons and arenas, resulting in people feeling unprepared for that content when they reach max level. A system that incentivizes people to look for more difficult challenges in content they are already familiar with at their own pace seems like a decent addition to bridge that gap.

tomofhyrule · January 23

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

This system is great and it is needed.

But, not spliting players on different difficulty levels just makes it not work.

Player A - strugling at Vestige level, fighting WB, Delve boss, mobs or whatever
Player B comes in on adventure mode and one shots every mob, kills WB easily.

How does this make Player A feel? Is he satisfied with his game? Did he get the overland difficulty he asked for years?

But as people are pointing out, this is how it currently works on Live:

Player B - playing on Adventure mode and having a good time since they're a Skyrim convert and really only light attack in found gear
Player A comes in with their 200k DPS fully kitted Arcbladeplar and nukes everything before player A can experience it.

Also, the problem with instances is that things like /zone only exist in a set instance. What happens when Player B gets a daily to kill Ghishzor with his 10m health and only light attacks? Well, maybe they can call for help in /zone, right? Oh, but all of the players who know how to play are tucked away in their special "no noobs allowed" instance, so they don't get the message. Instead, Player B says "wow, dead game" and uninstalls.

It really seems like anyone who's concerned about instancing really just wants a private server.

LalMirchi · January 23

I'm still trying to understand how this part would work:
"First, we are making a choice to make sure players are not separated by difficulty. We want to ensure you can engage with any player you want regardless of difficulty. To do this, the choice to opt-in or change your difficulty is up to you. "

How would players of at different difficulty levels facing the same objectives experience the same encounter? Would the mobs hit the player on easy very lightly and the player on hard difficulty very hard? How could that work in a mixed encounter?

Abelon · January 23

So, the issue of players on easy difficulty swooping in to kill your mob/boss in one hit, isn't a big deal for me per se. In the sense that, sure, I want high difficulty, but it's an MMO blah blah, some friction can happen, it ain't the end of the world.

But when we come to the topic of rewards, clearly this system would be abusable. I think this has already been talked about plenty too. Form groups with higher difficulty player, tag mobs, kill with low difficulty player, enjoy higher rewards. The argument against this being an issue has been that the rewards aren't that high to make this such a widespread phenomenon, that too many people would abuse it. Which I agree with. For now...

But at the same time, we are talking about the rewards system getting potentially expanded in the future, in fact it's been almost promised that it will be looked at and that what we are getting now is just bones to build on. But how exactly does this work with the abuse potential? Is this already accounted for when thinking about future rewards ideas? Will rewards always remain rather low, so that there is less incentive to abuse the system? Or is it just sort of being ignored for now, because it's inconvenient to think about?

I confess, my biggest worry as a long time overworld difficulty proponent, is that WE may later get punished, either by all rewards getting removed or (worst case scenario) the difficulty levels getting removed, because OTHERS abused an easily abusable system. And because nobody seems interested in dealing with this in advance. Because that would be incredibly unfair and insultingly preventable.

Silufadumar · January 23

Some of the suggestions on this thread are mind boggling.

From making the different difficulties unnecessarily complicated to getting butt hurt at the thought of someone else getting rewarded for doing harder content!

NO ONE... is forced to do the harder content in Eso, its a choice.

Rewards are ABSOLUTELY a big part of doing harder content, not simply to justly reward those who complete it, but to encourage players to try content they otherwise would not.

Incentive is a big part of getting people to do... well, anything, its part of human nature. People will almost always take the path of least resistance, unless incentivised to do otherwise. Sure some will climb a mountain just 'because its there', but most people would need an incentive to do so.

This is true not only in dungeon and trial content, but throughout Eso as what may incentivise players differs from person to person.

Suggesting players should not be rewarded for challenging content because it may be something you want, in content you don't want to do, is mean and selfish.

Addressing the difficulty question again.

Just applying the same principles from dungeon and trial content to zone content is all that's needed.

Normal dungeon = normal difficulty, normal story, normal rewards../..Normal zone = normal difficulty, normal story, normal rewards.

Vet dungeon = harder difficulty, same story, better rewards../..Vet zone = harder difficulty, same story, better rewards.

Vet hard mode = challenging difficulty, same story, unique rewards../.. Vet hard mode zone = challenging difficulty, same story, unique rewards.

@zos this doesn't have to be rocket science, just implement the principles you've already established, please.

HatchetHaro · January 23

LalMirchi wrote: »

How would players of at different difficulty levels facing the same objectives experience the same encounter? Would the mobs hit the player on easy very lightly and the player on hard difficulty very hard?

That is exactly what would happen.

LalMirchi wrote: »

How could that work in a mixed encounter?

I am assuming that your question is about the technical aspect of how that damage scaling works.

There exists a myriad of buffs and debuffs in the game that can modify your damage dealt and damage received. These buffs and debuffs are character-specific; for example, one player can have the Major Brutality buff active, and another might not. This system can be easily extended to apply the Adventurer buff to one player and Vestige buff to another.

Any time a player attempts to deal damage (or more accurately, any time a source of damage attempts to deal damage), the system will run a series of calculations based on that player's stats (mainly weapon/spell damage, stam/mag, and crit) and buffs to determine the amount of damage that is passed onto the target. One of those calculations would be scaling the damage down based on the player's selected difficulty level, so if the player is on Vestige difficulty, that number is multiplied by 0.2 before finally being sent out towards the target. Another player on Adventurer difficulty would just have their damage multiplied by 1, which means it stays the same, before being passed onto the target.

Much in the same way how player damage is passed onto enemies, enemy damage is also passed onto players. This time, that calculation is already done on the enemy's end, and the player receives a number that would be the raw damage they would receive. That raw damage is then, again, run through a series of calculations based on the player's stats (mainly armour and health) and buffs, before finally being subtracted from the player's health. In this instance, that calculation would have a final step of increasing that number based on the player's selected difficulty level, so if the player is on Vestige level, that number will then be multiplied by (1+6=) 7 before finally being subtracted from the player's health.

These calculations are all done per source, per target, so one player's difficulty settings (their own buffs and debuffs) will not affect how another player on a different difficulty setting would interact with the same target.

Sotha_Sil · January 23

Increased difficulty is great if the gameplay is satisfying. If not, it makes the game a chore. It works in a single player TES game but for ESO, the gameplay has a long way to go before we enjoy doing difficult encounters. I don't see how this is gonna make ESO better right now. The gameplay is the main issue, adding another layer of difficulty won't change that.

Muizer · January 23

Silufadumar wrote: »

From making the different difficulties unnecessarily complicated .........

From an implementation perspective, 99% if the work is done going from 1 difficulty level (present state) to 2. Beyond that, it's extremely cheap to add more granularity. That's because the whole system will be coded to adjust difficulty with as little as a single line of code per setting in one single configuration file. They have to do that, because that is what's needed for balancing anyway, even with just 2 or 3 levels of difficulty. But it means they can add extra granularity at almost no cost with the benefit of no longer having to worry about getting the cut-off right, when all players can decide for themselves. It's an easy win.

SneaK · January 23

SneaK wrote: »

I like the idea of a curse system similar to D2 nightfalls.

EX:
In February, Challenge Mode will be in Reapers March. All monsters in overland, delves, public dungeons will have the following curse modifiers. Previously completed quests will open back up to complete again with the modifiers.
+50% flame damage
+50% physical damage
+50% health
Etc etc etc
Takes +30% frost damage
*Challenge Zone* Group dungeons will also have a curse variant mode to select when queuing.

Gold items drop from bosses. Specific cosmetics related to the challenge zone and new achievements.

Also, rotate two at a time, a base zone and a DLC zone.

Yes I'm quoting myself.....

This would also bring out reasons to run certain sets, skill lines/classes, weapons, etc. Having the negative modifiers/curses increases difficulty but rotating the positive damage modifiers from things like +30% Frost or +30% Melee dmg would encourage build variety and keep things fresh. This is honestly what the game needs, incentive to be creative, it opens the content creator trove as well, guides would be written for these modifiers. Old zones would be unique again.

twisttop138 · January 23

I'm really having a hard time understanding all the concern. This is a new thing getting worked out. The rewards will get better. They are not going to separate players. That was like the core thing besides it being optional. As for xp and gold being somehow exploited. I think we're putting the cart before the horse here. We knew it would all be this way. Let's see what they have for us on the pts before we call the fire department.

C_Inside · January 23

I already posted this in a different thread but I'll copy/paste it here as well. Also, this is from the perspective of someone who does endgame PVE and who hasn't really interacted with overland in years, apart from mindlessly grinding xp in Spellscar and hoovering up skyshards on alts.

So they went with the laziest approach possible with the difficulty modes, huh? Didn't people complain about Skyrim's archaic approach to difficulty when it had the exact same system? Anyway, In their current states all but Adventurer and Seasoned modes are obsolete for me.

If I want money there are more efficient ways for me to get it than grind overland mobs.

If I want xp then I'll either farm Blackrose prison/Skyreach with a friend or if I don't have any friends I'll farm Spellscar on Adventurer/Seasoned mode. Now I could farm Spellscar on Vestige for more xp but it would take way longer to kill the trash packs and I would need to slot in heals/defensive skills which would further nerf my dps and make farming take even longer. Therefore it's more efficient to farm there on Adventurer/Seasoned.

For me the biggest annoyances when traversing the overland is the absolute incessant spam of enemy packs everywhere. Combined with the fact that every little trash mob snares you even if you're 20 kilometers away from them just makes me want to engage with the overland even less. So a difficulty mode where not only can enemies snare me for no reason but also kill me when I just want to get where I want to go would make overland even more tedious than it already is. Reducing the amount of trash packs and enemies per pack would help a lot with this. Making them respawn less frequently would help too.

So yeah, all but Seasoned difficulty is gonna be dead on arrival for me and I don't foresee me engaging with this feature at all in its current state.

AScarlato · January 23

C_Inside wrote: »

So they went with the laziest approach possible with the difficulty modes, huh?

Where you see lazy, I see caution. Their solution is a nice start and improvement over what we have, which is sleep-walking through the overland.

Solutions like separating a small playerbase into multiple instances could cause more damage than trying this out first.

I saw someone ask them to completely redo overland into group zones which would alienate the casual players who like things as they are.

The main issue being addressed is people who prefer overland but find the present state boring. This will add some challenge and address that problem and is a good start.

LalMirchi · January 23

HatchetHaro wrote: »

LalMirchi wrote: »

How would players of at different difficulty levels facing the same objectives experience the same encounter? Would the mobs hit the player on easy very lightly and the player on hard difficulty very hard?

That is exactly what would happen.

LalMirchi wrote: »

How could that work in a mixed encounter?

I am assuming that your question is about the technical aspect of how that damage scaling works.

There exists a myriad of buffs and debuffs in the game that can modify your damage dealt and damage received. These buffs and debuffs are character-specific; for example, one player can have the Major Brutality buff active, and another might not. This system can be easily extended to apply the Adventurer buff to one player and Vestige buff to another.

Any time a player attempts to deal damage (or more accurately, any time a source of damage attempts to deal damage), the system will run a series of calculations based on that player's stats (mainly weapon/spell damage, stam/mag, and crit) and buffs to determine the amount of damage that is passed onto the target. One of those calculations would be scaling the damage down based on the player's selected difficulty level, so if the player is on Vestige difficulty, that number is multiplied by 0.2 before finally being sent out towards the target. Another player on Adventurer difficulty would just have their damage multiplied by 1, which means it stays the same, before being passed onto the target.

Much in the same way how player damage is passed onto enemies, enemy damage is also passed onto players. This time, that calculation is already done on the enemy's end, and the player receives a number that would be the raw damage they would receive. That raw damage is then, again, run through a series of calculations based on the player's stats (mainly armour and health) and buffs, before finally being subtracted from the player's health. In this instance, that calculation would have a final step of increasing that number based on the player's selected difficulty level, so if the player is on Vestige level, that number will then be multiplied by (1+6=) 7 before finally being subtracted from the player's health.

These calculations are all done per source, per target, so one player's difficulty settings (their own buffs and debuffs) will not affect how another player on a different difficulty setting would interact with the same target.

Thanks very kindly for the detailed description. I'm still a bit confused as to how the different levels will affect players with varying levels in the same encounter, with regard to level cheesing.

Will a powerful player on easy mode be able to help low level players who have hard mode to level up faster?

Anumaril · January 23

Been waiting YEARS for this; I mostly stopped playing because of not having it. I've not been able to do my bread & butter gameplay of questing/overland because of how laughably easy the game is. Making this a toggle switch that uses scaling (introduced in One Tamriel) was a great idea, so it keeps players together.

I do worry, however, that this option only increases damage taken and decreases damage dealt... Difficulty is so much more than just stat inflation. Personally I'd like the option to outright turn off my player's health regeneration, forcing me to actually bother to use potions or to consciously use healing spells. But other aspects of difficulty should be considered too, like mobs applying new debuffs/effects or having new abilities.

On a final note, I'm glad to see that the rewards for this (for now) just consist of gold and XP. Gold is something we could all use more of, but it's also important that casual players don't feel punished for not playing on a hardcore mode. Higher difficulty shouldn't be an obligation, it should be an option. If the rewards are too enticing (e.g., gear, items, etc), it turns into something players are "forced" to do.

AScarlato · January 23

LalMirchi wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

LalMirchi wrote: »

How would players of at different difficulty levels facing the same objectives experience the same encounter? Would the mobs hit the player on easy very lightly and the player on hard difficulty very hard?

That is exactly what would happen.

LalMirchi wrote: »

How could that work in a mixed encounter?

I am assuming that your question is about the technical aspect of how that damage scaling works.

There exists a myriad of buffs and debuffs in the game that can modify your damage dealt and damage received. These buffs and debuffs are character-specific; for example, one player can have the Major Brutality buff active, and another might not. This system can be easily extended to apply the Adventurer buff to one player and Vestige buff to another.

Any time a player attempts to deal damage (or more accurately, any time a source of damage attempts to deal damage), the system will run a series of calculations based on that player's stats (mainly weapon/spell damage, stam/mag, and crit) and buffs to determine the amount of damage that is passed onto the target. One of those calculations would be scaling the damage down based on the player's selected difficulty level, so if the player is on Vestige difficulty, that number is multiplied by 0.2 before finally being sent out towards the target. Another player on Adventurer difficulty would just have their damage multiplied by 1, which means it stays the same, before being passed onto the target.

Much in the same way how player damage is passed onto enemies, enemy damage is also passed onto players. This time, that calculation is already done on the enemy's end, and the player receives a number that would be the raw damage they would receive. That raw damage is then, again, run through a series of calculations based on the player's stats (mainly armour and health) and buffs, before finally being subtracted from the player's health. In this instance, that calculation would have a final step of increasing that number based on the player's selected difficulty level, so if the player is on Vestige level, that number will then be multiplied by (1+6=) 7 before finally being subtracted from the player's health.

These calculations are all done per source, per target, so one player's difficulty settings (their own buffs and debuffs) will not affect how another player on a different difficulty setting would interact with the same target.

Will a powerful player on easy mode be able to help low level players who have hard mode to level up faster?

Even if they could, would this matter? You can already level a lot faster after level 10 doing daily dungeon/pvp. Getting to 50 is pretty fast and even then, it's a big *shrug* to me if someone levels faster but requires a second player to spend their time on it too.

shadoza · January 23

Silufadumar wrote: »

Some of the suggestions on this thread are mind boggling.

From making the different difficulties unnecessarily complicated to getting butt hurt at the thought of someone else getting rewarded for doing harder content!

NO ONE... is forced to do the harder content in Eso, its a choice.

Rewards are ABSOLUTELY a big part of doing harder content, not simply to justly reward those who complete it, but to encourage players to try content they otherwise would not.

Incentive is a big part of getting people to do... well, anything, its part of human nature. People will almost always take the path of least resistance, unless incentivised to do otherwise. Sure some will climb a mountain just 'because its there', but most people would need an incentive to do so.

This is true not only in dungeon and trial content, but throughout Eso as what may incentivise players differs from person to person.

Suggesting players should not be rewarded for challenging content because it may be something you want, in content you don't want to do, is mean and selfish.

Addressing the difficulty question again.

Just applying the same principles from dungeon and trial content to zone content is all that's needed.

Normal dungeon = normal difficulty, normal story, normal rewards../..Normal zone = normal difficulty, normal story, normal rewards.

Vet dungeon = harder difficulty, same story, better rewards../..Vet zone = harder difficulty, same story, better rewards.

Vet hard mode = challenging difficulty, same story, unique rewards../.. Vet hard mode zone = challenging difficulty, same story, unique rewards.

@zos this doesn't have to be rocket science, just implement the principles you've already established, please.

Those principles aren't working, which why they opted to remove the FoMO features in the game. You want to put them back in where they matter to you?

CP5 · January 23

shadoza wrote: »

Silufadumar wrote: »

Some of the suggestions on this thread are mind boggling.

From making the different difficulties unnecessarily complicated to getting butt hurt at the thought of someone else getting rewarded for doing harder content!

NO ONE... is forced to do the harder content in Eso, its a choice.

Rewards are ABSOLUTELY a big part of doing harder content, not simply to justly reward those who complete it, but to encourage players to try content they otherwise would not.

Incentive is a big part of getting people to do... well, anything, its part of human nature. People will almost always take the path of least resistance, unless incentivised to do otherwise. Sure some will climb a mountain just 'because its there', but most people would need an incentive to do so.

This is true not only in dungeon and trial content, but throughout Eso as what may incentivise players differs from person to person.

Suggesting players should not be rewarded for challenging content because it may be something you want, in content you don't want to do, is mean and selfish.

Addressing the difficulty question again.

Just applying the same principles from dungeon and trial content to zone content is all that's needed.

Normal dungeon = normal difficulty, normal story, normal rewards../..Normal zone = normal difficulty, normal story, normal rewards.

Vet dungeon = harder difficulty, same story, better rewards../..Vet zone = harder difficulty, same story, better rewards.

Vet hard mode = challenging difficulty, same story, unique rewards../.. Vet hard mode zone = challenging difficulty, same story, unique rewards.

@zos this doesn't have to be rocket science, just implement the principles you've already established, please.

Those principles aren't working, which why they opted to remove the FoMO features in the game. You want to put them back in where they matter to you?

Out of curiosity, what exactly are you most focused on when you keep referring to FoMO?

Fischblut · January 23

This quote from the news article is actually disturbing:

That said, we are building Challenge Difficulty to be expandable in the future and layer with other existing systems to help reward players for taking on the challenge. For example, we could have Golden Pursuits with Challenge Difficulty-specific pursuits. If you complete those, you could get a specific tiered reward for your efforts. Expanding the rewards for Challenge Difficulty will be an ongoing discussion after launch, but we want to make sure you know why we are starting with experience and gold.

I love easy overland, but I also love unlocking cosmetic rewards for playing the game. And this part of the article sounds like "some players wanted higher difficulty in their overland, and now other players will need to play on that difficulty too because it will be extra rewarding!"

Whenever there were Golden Pursuits which offered some cosmetic item for specific task, I had to do that task (even if I would otherwise select other task). If there will be task for defeating some enemies on the highest difficulty and it will have some cool outfit tied to it (and only to it), I will feel forced to do that... And then it will repeat again and again with more and more rewards, and I will have to select the high difficulty (which I have zero interest in) as part of my daily routine

Let's say, the game which will force me to suffer in my relaxing overland, is not what I want ESO to become and is not what I will support in future

Of course, if you meant that there will be few difficult tasks among Pursuits, but there will always be option to do other normal tasks to unlock all Golden Pursuit rewards, it's ok and nothing to be afraid of

Let other people have more gold and experience for their higher difficulties then.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Good feedback and we are excited to see people try this. Will try and answer some questions before the system goes live and you all can see it in action.

- Exploitation: This is indeed a key area of focus for us and one of the reasons the rewards start with XP and Gold. At our core, we are an MMO and want to encourage players to play together, see other people, soft group, etc. so as we were developing a core pillar was to make sure we maintain that playstyle. Its something we will keep an eye on especially as we layer on more reward mechanism.
...
- New Mechanics - Monsters currently do have mechanics. in the current form of difficulty, most players that are adept at the game just do not see them. As fights become longer, those mechanics will be much more noticeable. As an example, I was testing the final story encounter in Eastern Solstice (The Final Dark) and actually had to dodge, block, interrupt, etc and still died on Vestige difficulty. It was a lot of fun to experience that with a character that had all the tools at my disposal.

Regarding first part, what would make me more happy about seeing other players and soft-grouping in overland when I go on an adventure:
- no reducing experience when multiple players kill same mobs
- no crafting nodes/treasure chests/heavy sacks stealing - each player must be able to loot it (with their own loot table); it already partially exists in dungeons and trials, and players like to know that nobody will "take away" their shiny loots
- no cap on how many people can loot same boss/mob (if they did at least 1 hit on that enemy)

I had very good friend in the past (he left the game, sadly), but we almost never adventured overland together. We were both hoarders and loved to pick crafting nodes and it was always tension when we saw shiny flowers; so we mutually agreed that we will rather meet for Craglorn specific quests and dungeons or in cities

And sometimes when I find a partner for Imperial City, we take turns in looting Treasure chests on our way, so nobody feels left out. One time such partner was just taking every chest for himself and never sharing - he probably still wonders why I never invited him in group again

Regarding last part of the quote, I am glad that people will have option to experience monster mechanics. I already know that they have mechanics because I like to observe monsters and wild life as close as possible.

For example, I've captured this when Hunger polymorph was released, to include in my feedback thread about it (sadly, I never got time for that thread):

https://youtu.be/aLIgDtIxPug

It has cool attacks, and damage it does is pretty significant (I am in golden armor and have all basic defensive CPs applied, plus I use tri-stat food). I really wanted to play around with this cool enemy longer, but Heavy Sack appeared - and if other player arrived there while I was in combat, "my" loot could be in danger (real reason why people prefer solo play in overland)

I actually hated when few years ago Daedroth-type enemies got new ability to launch Fireball at player with knock-back effect, and Clannfears got new nasty leap with knockdown effect

I would really dislike if this was default game difficulty, because I see my character as very powerful being.
Another example: I died each time I engaged the enemy group in Night Market on PTS, saw a glimpse of areas which I won't be able to explore and even noticed Treasure Chest (from above when I resurrected at a wayshrine) which was guarded by those overpowered mob packs - this was one of the worst gameplay experience I had in ESO

Elvenheart · January 23

C_Inside wrote: »

I already posted this in a different thread but I'll copy/paste it here as well. Also, this is from the perspective of someone who does endgame PVE and who hasn't really interacted with overland in years, apart from mindlessly grinding xp in Spellscar and hoovering up skyshards on alts.

So they went with the laziest approach possible with the difficulty modes, huh? Didn't people complain about Skyrim's archaic approach to difficulty when it had the exact same system? Anyway, In their current states all but Adventurer and Seasoned modes are obsolete for me.

If I want money there are more efficient ways for me to get it than grind overland mobs.

If I want xp then I'll either farm Blackrose prison/Skyreach with a friend or if I don't have any friends I'll farm Spellscar on Adventurer/Seasoned mode. Now I could farm Spellscar on Vestige for more xp but it would take way longer to kill the trash packs and I would need to slot in heals/defensive skills which would further nerf my dps and make farming take even longer. Therefore it's more efficient to farm there on Adventurer/Seasoned.

For me the biggest annoyances when traversing the overland is the absolute incessant spam of enemy packs everywhere. Combined with the fact that every little trash mob snares you even if you're 20 kilometers away from them just makes me want to engage with the overland even less. So a difficulty mode where not only can enemies snare me for no reason but also kill me when I just want to get where I want to go would make overland even more tedious than it already is. Reducing the amount of trash packs and enemies per pack would help a lot with this. Making them respawn less frequently would help too.

So yeah, all but Seasoned difficulty is gonna be dead on arrival for me and I don't foresee me engaging with this feature at all in its current state.

Maybe on the lowest level difficulty, it would be nice if mobs don’t even agro unless you attack first. It would then be similar to games where once you out level an area they become gray and don’t agro. OR, add a difficulty level lower than Adventurer where mobs don’t agro without being attacked.

Red_Feather · January 23

It must be a chore to read all the posts in this topic regularly, but I hope someone working on the game gets to see these posts. A lot of good discussion here.

It's good to see overland content get more love. It's amazing content with so much to offer. It just lacks that sense of lurking danger and combat that feels engaging. It lacks feedback to player action, or inaction, that says either "that was a great way to handle that situation" or "you could do something better in that situation next time".

majulook · January 23

So I will be able to set my difficulty to a higher amount than the others in my group or even other players that are doing the same overland monsters. So basicly my damage is lowered, making the other players having to do more damage to compensate for my selection.

Is there a way for players to see if another player has this added difficulty set?

robwolf666 · January 23

Here’s the concern I have with Challenge Difficulty if players aren’t separated.

Imagine two players engage the same overland enemy:

• Player A (me) is on Adventurer. I’m CP2000+, and I have zero interest in opting into higher difficulty.
• Player B is on Vestige because they want longer, harder fights.

We’re attacking the same enemy in the same shared world.

I do full damage and burn it down quickly — exactly as Adventurer difficulty is designed to allow. Player B is also playing exactly as intended… but their fight ends early anyway because the enemy is dead.

No one did anything wrong. I didn’t “ruin” anything. I simply chose the default difficulty that fits how I want to play.

That’s why this system isn’t really a traditional difficulty setting — it’s a personal debuff layered onto a shared space. As long as difficulties aren’t separated, one player’s choice will directly affect another player’s experience.

And to be clear: I’ll be staying on Adventurer. I play ESO to relax, not to make overland punishing. That’s precisely why I think difficulty should be separate — so people who want challenge can have it without being affected by players like me who don’t.

Otherwise, this is going to lead to frustration on both sides:
• Higher-difficulty players losing the challenge they opted into
• Default players being blamed for simply playing the game as designed

That’s not a player behaviour problem — it’s a design trade-off that needs to be acknowledged.

Ruthless · January 24

Here is a great idea:

loveeso wrote: »

Excited to see ZOS finally working on overland difficulty options—especially with multiple levels. Great move.

If you’re aiming to avoid separate instances and leaning toward a system like LotRO’s landscape difficulty (which works well overall), I hope you’ll address one key issue:
Players on lower difficulty shouldn’t be able to undermine the experience for those on higher difficulty by one-shotting enemies already engaged in tougher combat.

Two potential solutions come to mind:

1. Enraged Tagging System
Once an enemy is attacked by someone on higher difficulty, it becomes visibly “enraged” or marked. Anyone who joins the fight is automatically pulled into that difficulty tier for that encounter. This keeps the challenge intact and avoids trivializing the fight.

2. Ghost Phase System
To players not on the higher difficulty, those enemies appear as ghostly, semi-transparent figures—like phantoms in Dark Souls. They’re untouchable and don’t interfere with normal spawns, which continue as usual for lower-difficulty players.
This could actually look stunning in-game: seeing others locked in intense battles with spectral foes while you engage your own tier.

Either approach would preserve immersion and prevent cross-tier interference. Just hoping ZOS nails the implementation so difficulty feels meaningful without fragmenting the world.

Importantly, this kind of system doesn’t just protect higher-difficulty players from having their challenge spoiled—it also prevents abuse.
Without safeguards, players could switch to high difficulty and let a friend on minimum difficulty tank and kill enemies for them, farming high-tier rewards without actually engaging with the challenge. That would undermine the whole point.

And let’s be honest: if higher difficulty doesn’t offer meaningful rewards, most players won’t bother. They’ll just switch to another game where challenge and reward go hand-in-hand.

HatchetHaro · January 24

LalMirchi wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

LalMirchi wrote: »

How would players of at different difficulty levels facing the same objectives experience the same encounter? Would the mobs hit the player on easy very lightly and the player on hard difficulty very hard?

That is exactly what would happen.

LalMirchi wrote: »

How could that work in a mixed encounter?

I am assuming that your question is about the technical aspect of how that damage scaling works.

There exists a myriad of buffs and debuffs in the game that can modify your damage dealt and damage received. These buffs and debuffs are character-specific; for example, one player can have the Major Brutality buff active, and another might not. This system can be easily extended to apply the Adventurer buff to one player and Vestige buff to another.

Any time a player attempts to deal damage (or more accurately, any time a source of damage attempts to deal damage), the system will run a series of calculations based on that player's stats (mainly weapon/spell damage, stam/mag, and crit) and buffs to determine the amount of damage that is passed onto the target. One of those calculations would be scaling the damage down based on the player's selected difficulty level, so if the player is on Vestige difficulty, that number is multiplied by 0.2 before finally being sent out towards the target. Another player on Adventurer difficulty would just have their damage multiplied by 1, which means it stays the same, before being passed onto the target.

Much in the same way how player damage is passed onto enemies, enemy damage is also passed onto players. This time, that calculation is already done on the enemy's end, and the player receives a number that would be the raw damage they would receive. That raw damage is then, again, run through a series of calculations based on the player's stats (mainly armour and health) and buffs, before finally being subtracted from the player's health. In this instance, that calculation would have a final step of increasing that number based on the player's selected difficulty level, so if the player is on Vestige level, that number will then be multiplied by (1+6=) 7 before finally being subtracted from the player's health.

These calculations are all done per source, per target, so one player's difficulty settings (their own buffs and debuffs) will not affect how another player on a different difficulty setting would interact with the same target.

Thanks very kindly for the detailed description. I'm still a bit confused as to how the different levels will affect players with varying levels in the same encounter, with regard to level cheesing.

Will a powerful player on easy mode be able to help low level players who have hard mode to level up faster?

Based on what I know, the answer is yes.

I do not see a problem with that. There's already a myriad of other ways to gain gold and/or exp much, much faster.