Would you like to see a difficulty update for instanced content

moderatelyfatman · January 15

So powercreep has made a lot of the older content trivial. Content designed for a 30k dps meta loses a lot of its meaning when facing a 150k meta. This is why overland content has been so boring when you can one-shot Molag Bal with half a rotation.

What I would dearly love is for the devs to go back to some of the older instanced content (particularly trials) and do a full update. I'd love it for hard modes in the Craglorn trials to really mean something again and it would refresh a lot of the old content. A lot of older players would come back to the game for a new Craglorn trifecta that was a significant challenge and accompanied by some nice rewards like skins. Even more 'recent' content such as Cloudrest could do with a refresh when players can blast through the entire trial in under 2 mins.

The update should be more than just increasing the health of bosses to make them bigger dps sponges. Harder difficulties should also include some of the more recent trial mechanics that need to be followed as well.

What do you think?

Soarora · January 15

No

No but also yes. I do not think that the base vet and hard modes of content should be increased. If all content difficulty is buffed, there will be an even greater difficulty jump between normal and veteran, decreasing ease of access into endgame. In addition, players may feel negatively about the new context of their clears. It’s one thing to say “oh I got this clear back in [year] when it was hard” and another to say “oh I got this clear back in [year] when it was easy”.

HOWEVER, I am entirely in support and independently have desired a new level above veteran that is a buffed version of content to the extreme where current meta is faced with old mechanics before content was nerfed (welcome back, unjumpable frostvault lasers) and new mechanics to make full burning more difficult.

thorwyn · January 15

No

I voted no, because I think it would be a psychologically bad move.
Older trials like Craglorn have become more or less the entry point for people who are willing to dip their toes into organized group play. At that stage, the vast majority of players are not able to reach 100+k dps or even a number close to that.
However, I think it is important to give those players the sense of accomplishment and an encouragement to try other trials that are even harder. The thought of "I have beat this trial on the highest difficulty" is the key here.
I'm also not convinced that an ultra-hardcore mode would bring back older players. Speaking from my perspective as a seasoned raid player, I couldn't care less if there was a new version of AA. It would not motivate me in the slightest.

moderatelyfatman · January 15

Yes

Soarora wrote: »

No but also yes. I do not think that the base vet and hard modes of content should be increased. If all content difficulty is buffed, there will be an even greater difficulty jump between normal and veteran, decreasing ease of access into endgame. In addition, players may feel negatively about the new context of their clears. It’s one thing to say “oh I got this clear back in [year] when it was hard” and another to say “oh I got this clear back in [year] when it was easy”.

HOWEVER, I am entirely in support and independently have desired a new level above veteran that is a buffed version of content to the extreme where current meta is faced with old mechanics before content was nerfed (welcome back, unjumpable frostvault lasers) and new mechanics to make full burning more difficult.

I think there is a case for increasing the difficulty for regular (non-vet) mode in the older trials. Just bring the difficulty up to the level of the more recent normal trials. When I first progged 50k dps (on the Iron Atro) was the requirement for vet trials but now most new players with access to basic gear sets and an understanding of rotations can achieve this. I see no issues with raising the floor on general content difficulty to reflect this.

As for achievements, create a whole new set for the advanced difficulties and tie it in with a new cosmetic.

Soarora · January 15

No

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

No but also yes. I do not think that the base vet and hard modes of content should be increased. If all content difficulty is buffed, there will be an even greater difficulty jump between normal and veteran, decreasing ease of access into endgame. In addition, players may feel negatively about the new context of their clears. It’s one thing to say “oh I got this clear back in [year] when it was hard” and another to say “oh I got this clear back in [year] when it was easy”.

HOWEVER, I am entirely in support and independently have desired a new level above veteran that is a buffed version of content to the extreme where current meta is faced with old mechanics before content was nerfed (welcome back, unjumpable frostvault lasers) and new mechanics to make full burning more difficult.

I think there is a case for increasing the difficulty for regular (non-vet) mode in the older trials. Just bring the difficulty up to the level of the more recent normal trials. When I first progged 50k dps (on the Iron Atro) was the requirement for vet trials but now most new players with access to basic gear sets and an understanding of rotations can achieve this. I see no issues with raising the floor on general content difficulty to reflect this.

As for achievements, create a whole new set for the advanced difficulties and tie it in with a new cosmetic.

There’s also an alarming amount of people who seem to not know what a spammable is, considering they spam light attacks instead. Trials are already pretty stressful to get into, as a reformed casual, I didn’t even feel comfortable tanking a normal trial until I had done several dungeon trifectas (note that this was also AFTER I had trial trifectas as healer). I know it’s overkill but I’ve seen plenty of people have that level of stress around doing a normal trial.

Realistically, I don’t think we’d ever get a higher difficulty mode considering the amount of work that’d be required. That said, if it was done in the way you suggest, it should happen after the floor is raised… by updating the skill advisor and making good repeatable combat tutorials.

Tariq9898 · January 15

For me, the only difficulty update for instanced content that I want to see are for quest bosses. But that’s should be coming with Overland difficulty sliders.

LunaFlora · January 15

No

extra optional difficulty would be fine.
extra and optional.

SolarRune · January 15

No

I think before last weekend I would have been a maybe or even a yes. But I was pugging and filled a spot in someone elses first ever vet guild run. Having seen this and people with no/little experience of this side of the game I think the current levels are important. We should not be closing off areas of the game to people just starting their journey into what I think is the best part of the game. I think as other have put, if there is to be something new it needs to be between vet and hm as an additional option.

Gabriel_H · January 15

Yes

Yes/No.

Lets talk Craglorn. Any experienced group is going to fly through Crag vet trials because they are the starter trials. They are designed for those who are just starting out in trials with low CP. They need to stay as is - BUT - the scaling needs to change so that the health and damage of mobs scales off the CP of those doing them.

I actually lead runs through the Crag trials, for experienced raiders but with caveats. Base game gear only, maximum of 80 blue, 80 red CP, only arcane, healthy and robust jewellery traits, no scribed skills. i.e. At the level the trials are designed for. On a technical level they are some of the hardest trials in the game. They require high co-ordination between the tank and off-tank. They are beasts when tackled as they were intended.

When not tackled as intended ... I've solo tanked all three in HM in under 30 minutes.

robwolf666 · January 15

Would you like to see a difficulty update for instanced content

Wouldn't this happen anyway as part of the Overland difficulty changes they're making?

peacenote · January 15

Maybe

I would want to see how they handle the overland difficulty increase/choice first. Does it work well? Does it split the population? Is it enjoyable?

Also, the game is so BIG now, I partially think it is OK that some content is easier and faster to clear. It's difficult or near impossible for a new player to take the journey "we" took through the game, experiencing the core stories in order, and ever make it to the current, new content being generated in dungeons and trials if they have the goal of joining the game to catch up with friends or they make new ones along the way who are doing more advanced content. Also, it would be frustrating for me, as a veteran player, if going back to the older content to help a friend or grab a new lead suddenly took a much larger portion of my time, for something I've already done a million times and did when it was originally hard.

The issue with overland is that almost all of it had the same scale -- super super easy. We have a lot of new dungeons and trials which are anything but, and the "mid" difficulty ones that are a bit older, but not REALLY old, can still be a challenge for groups who are progressing through with newer, less experienced players. Lastly, the easier instanced content (the dungeons, at least) may not be a challenge with four players but can be a fun way to challenge yourself taking them on solo. They can create unique problems and scenarios to help you learn about making custom builds that address a specific thing. Therefore, I'm not sure it's as pressing of an issue, but if overland is handled artfully and successfully I would be interested in at least thinking about the approach might translate to instanced content.

Jestir · January 15

No

I would rather see more trials or dungeons then making older HMs up to current standards

I have seen other games do it and I am not a fan of it there, it's passable if it's made as a brand new trial or as a completely new tier of difficulty like say an Ultimate cloudrest without changing the current content

But i also I think something like what was done in the most recent trial is a fun way to cycle back in old content in a "harder" environment

Ugrak · January 15

Yes

Power creep is as inescapable as inflation.

I think it is appropriate for the challenge of encounters to creep along at the same pace.

At least the veteran difficulty should be adjusted to always be the level of spicyness it was intended to be.

As an aside I'd love to see a veteran/normal toggle for all instanced content such as delves, public dungeons and some quest areas.

moderatelyfatman · January 15

Yes

Soarora wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

No but also yes. I do not think that the base vet and hard modes of content should be increased. If all content difficulty is buffed, there will be an even greater difficulty jump between normal and veteran, decreasing ease of access into endgame. In addition, players may feel negatively about the new context of their clears. It’s one thing to say “oh I got this clear back in [year] when it was hard” and another to say “oh I got this clear back in [year] when it was easy”.

HOWEVER, I am entirely in support and independently have desired a new level above veteran that is a buffed version of content to the extreme where current meta is faced with old mechanics before content was nerfed (welcome back, unjumpable frostvault lasers) and new mechanics to make full burning more difficult.

I think there is a case for increasing the difficulty for regular (non-vet) mode in the older trials. Just bring the difficulty up to the level of the more recent normal trials. When I first progged 50k dps (on the Iron Atro) was the requirement for vet trials but now most new players with access to basic gear sets and an understanding of rotations can achieve this. I see no issues with raising the floor on general content difficulty to reflect this.

As for achievements, create a whole new set for the advanced difficulties and tie it in with a new cosmetic.

There’s also an alarming amount of people who seem to not know what a spammable is, considering they spam light attacks instead. Trials are already pretty stressful to get into, as a reformed casual, I didn’t even feel comfortable tanking a normal trial until I had done several dungeon trifectas (note that this was also AFTER I had trial trifectas as healer). I know it’s overkill but I’ve seen plenty of people have that level of stress around doing a normal trial.

Realistically, I don’t think we’d ever get a higher difficulty mode considering the amount of work that’d be required. That said, if it was done in the way you suggest, it should happen after the floor is raised… by updating the skill advisor and making good repeatable combat tutorials.

Regarding the people who don't know what a spammable is.... I'd it's probably due to the easiness of the overland content. If you can light attack your way through the story then there isn't any incentive to learn more. I think if ZOS finally got around to updating their class build tool tips and tutorials then this would be less of an issue.

I'm not sure why normal trials should be stressful to get into unless you're a solo player without a guild? In my guilds most first timers have a very understanding raid lead to guide them and enough spare dps for the new player to be carried. The feedback from most new trial attendees is usually positive.

AzuraFan · January 15

No

Optional - sure. Not optional - no.

twisttop138 · January 15

Yes

Are we talking a new mode here? To borrow from swtor, a nightmare mode, beyond HM? If so then definitely. This would be amazing. If you mean a balance pass to make stuff harder than no.

Soarora · January 15

No

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

No but also yes. I do not think that the base vet and hard modes of content should be increased. If all content difficulty is buffed, there will be an even greater difficulty jump between normal and veteran, decreasing ease of access into endgame. In addition, players may feel negatively about the new context of their clears. It’s one thing to say “oh I got this clear back in [year] when it was hard” and another to say “oh I got this clear back in [year] when it was easy”.

HOWEVER, I am entirely in support and independently have desired a new level above veteran that is a buffed version of content to the extreme where current meta is faced with old mechanics before content was nerfed (welcome back, unjumpable frostvault lasers) and new mechanics to make full burning more difficult.

I think there is a case for increasing the difficulty for regular (non-vet) mode in the older trials. Just bring the difficulty up to the level of the more recent normal trials. When I first progged 50k dps (on the Iron Atro) was the requirement for vet trials but now most new players with access to basic gear sets and an understanding of rotations can achieve this. I see no issues with raising the floor on general content difficulty to reflect this.

As for achievements, create a whole new set for the advanced difficulties and tie it in with a new cosmetic.

There’s also an alarming amount of people who seem to not know what a spammable is, considering they spam light attacks instead. Trials are already pretty stressful to get into, as a reformed casual, I didn’t even feel comfortable tanking a normal trial until I had done several dungeon trifectas (note that this was also AFTER I had trial trifectas as healer). I know it’s overkill but I’ve seen plenty of people have that level of stress around doing a normal trial.

Realistically, I don’t think we’d ever get a higher difficulty mode considering the amount of work that’d be required. That said, if it was done in the way you suggest, it should happen after the floor is raised… by updating the skill advisor and making good repeatable combat tutorials.

Regarding the people who don't know what a spammable is.... I'd it's probably due to the easiness of the overland content. If you can light attack your way through the story then there isn't any incentive to learn more. I think if ZOS finally got around to updating their class build tool tips and tutorials then this would be less of an issue.

I'm not sure why normal trials should be stressful to get into unless you're a solo player without a guild? In my guilds most first timers have a very understanding raid lead to guide them and enough spare dps for the new player to be carried. The feedback from most new trial attendees is usually positive.

Yes, overland difficulty is also a problem. I’m sill shocked that my un-optimized companion killed quest bosses by himself before I got to hear all the dialogue.

I’m not sure what exactly it is, I get the vibe that it’s to do with the pressure of not letting 11 people down and/or bad experiences from toxic players and/or the perception that most group PvErs are toxic. In my example of myself, it was fear of letting 11 people down by not being good enough since tanks are harder to carry than DPS… though I now know it’s actually not that hard to carry a tank as long as the other tank is good enough.

You probably are right that it has to do with lack of guild participation though. PUGs are just not a good place to get started in content with. Personally, I pugged my first normal trial as a tank just because I wasn’t in any guilds that do normals and I wasn’t going to join one just for that to then leave after.

Rkindaleft · January 15

Maybe

I have all trifectas except the one from the newest trial if that gives any indication of my skill level. I don't think I would support this if it was mandatory and enforced, it would be better if they added an extra difficulty setting, instead of just straight up increasing the difficulty of the Veteran and HM from what they currently are.

I think it would work well as a completely optional additional difficulty, so the highest level of player has something they can stick their teeth into for a little while, but power creep has allowed for more casual and entry level players to access trial content in ways they couldn't do before, and having more players run trials is healthier for the raiding community overall. Even with the massive decline of capable players at the endgame level due to various reasons (performance, bad updates, etc), because of things like Oakensoul 2-3 years ago, Arcanist and competitive HA builds parsing up to ~130k, it's become significantly easier to hit higher levels of DPS and there are many more players who are now capable of running them at least at the Veteran level.

AlienatedGoat · January 16

No

No, especially for Craglorn trials. They still serve an important purpose as an on-ramp to harder trials. If their Hardmodes were "updated" it would actually be a hindrance for the endgame community - Craglorn HMs are one of the first HMs that any prog group will do, specifically because they are more accessible. Don't take that away.

code65536 · January 16

No

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

powercreep

The problem with power creep is that it's not universal and automatic. After a major update goes live, you don't just magically end up with more power the instant you log on. Actually, after most patches, people lose power immediately after a patch.

Obviously, there has been power creep and a lot of it, but the player has to work for it. New mythic? Need to go farm the leads. New gear sets? Need to go farm that gear. Scribing? Need to go level scribing, earn scripts, etc. Subclassing? Need to go level class lines, get the necessary skill points, etc.

And all this also involves researching what the current meta is.

Let's say someone played the game back in 2016 and they did 30K damage back when that was the best anyone could do, and then they quit the game and came back a decade later in 2026. And let's say that they haven't forgotten how to play. They're still going to be doing somewhere around 30K. To reach this 150K number that you are throwing around, they need to research what the current builds are and how they should be played, they need to go acquire new gear (and probably transmutes), they need to go level antiquities, blah blah blah. Oh, and they need to be in an optimized group and not be in a PUG.

It's easy for the endgame crowd to get trapped in their little bubble and lose sight of all this. All this power creep over the years, for the most part, didn't come for free. And depending on how much someone has invested into keeping up with the meta, you are going to see a very wide spectrum of player power levels. And older content play a role in covering that spectrum.

And they offer a kind of progression. A new player working through content in chronological order would, for the most part, be working through a difficulty ladder, whereas if you updated all older content to match the current meta, there would be no rungs on that ladder.

Yes, this means that for people in the endgame, older content becomes stale and boring. But you know what? Killing Rakkhat before any interesting mechanic happens isn't the only thing that makes that old trial boring: the fact that I cleared that trial a decade ago is a major factor too.

Pevey · January 16

I often see the 30k number compared to today’s parses, but people forget the trial dummy didn’t exist back then. Better parses were more like 35-40k, and I think that’s pretty close to 100k on the trial dummy. There’s a gap between that and today’s top parses, for sure. But it’s not as far off as it seems.

I agree with the above poster that Craglorn trials should stay accessible as an entry point. I think all trials are still pretty balanced in terms of difficulty. Some of the original dungeons could use some more challenge, but I think the first few (the ones you can access at lower levels) should also stay very accessible.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · January 16

No

All difficulty should be contained in vet HM content being an optional activity.

code65536 · January 16

No

Pevey wrote: »

I often see the 30k number compared to today’s parses, but people forget the trial dummy didn’t exist back then.

No, the trial dummy didn't exist in 2016. Because target dummies of any sort didn't exist in 2016. Back in 2016, the world-first vMoL clear by the top raiding guild at the time had people doing around 30K on Rakkhat. That 30K isn't a target dummy number; it's the actual raid number.

Or, another point of comparison, the world's first vAS trifecta in 2017 had a 13:07 trial time (12:48 fight time) and today, the vAS world record is *goes to look it up*, uh, 57 seconds (not sure what the fight time on that would even be). (Ok, probably not the greatest example because there's a little bit of a feedback loop here where higher damage facilitates even more damage because then the fight becomes more burst and less sustained, and higher damage means ignoring minis and only focusing boss.)

But the point is that there really has been power creep and that it's not just the result of "oh, there were no trial dummies back then". But it's also true that the power creep isn't universal but rather comes from the ever rising ceiling of possibilities that come from optimization, which means that the power from this power creep is available only to those who have invested the time and effort to optimize.

Pevey · January 16

Fair, dummies were released one year later with housing in 2017. I wasn't doing trials in 2016 and don't even know how they would have calculated their average dps. But I'll take your word for it. Just a year or two later, dummy parses were 35-40k. Which is less than where players parse on the same type of dummy today, apples to apples, but not by a massive amount like the 30k vs 150k comparison implies.

spartaxoxo · January 16

No

twisttop138 wrote: »

Are we talking a new mode here? To borrow from swtor, a nightmare mode, beyond HM? If so then definitely. This would be amazing. If you mean a balance pass to make stuff harder than no.

Yeah. I took it as a balance pass but a nightmare mode would be cool

CalamityCat · January 16

Maybe

I'd rather it was an optional switch for those groups who think they're too strong for normal vet. I play for fun, not to be obliterated in a trial with my guild, simply because experienced groups feel the content is too easy. It may be too easy for a group that is super optimised, using the most meta subclass builds and achieving top scores...but we don't all want to play the game that way.

Not everyone plays by the biggest numbers. Some players are just in trials to get the gear unlocked and have actual fun with their guild, whether at normal level or vet to get the gear that's recommended for their build. It's tricky teaching players during their first trial runs if they get overwhelmed by complex mechanics or the trial ends up impossibly hard for that team to complete. So this extra hard difficulty has to be on some sort of toggle or an extra level on top of vet.

Thing is, when players are experienced and get their characters super optimised and subclassed etc, it's inevitable they will get bored of playing the most meta build and obliterating all the content they attempt. This is why I never subclassed. Playing the same few skill lines was always going to get boring.

If you want the game to feel more fresh and challenging, maybe you need to stop chasing the meta and the optimal builds and go do raids say with themed builds or less popular classes that will force you to play differently and work harder to complete the content. Use a pure non-arcanist build with crafted gear or sets you haven't used before.

AlexanderDeLarge · January 17

Yes

Yes, I think there should be a scaling mechanism that basically bridges the gap between normal dungeons and veteran dungeons. Veteran dungeons vary in difficulty greatly, normal dungeons don't even prepare you for the first vet dungeon you do, you're just thrown in the deep end.

LootAllTheStuff · January 17

Maybe

For instanced content, I would not be averse to a toggle that pops up at the transition much like the "Fungal Grotto I/II" choice on group dungeons. Not in favour of a blanket tweak, though, as this would adversely affect new players, and I'd rather they didn't get discouraged by much harder story quest content while they're still learning how the game does things and levelling up.

alpha_synuclein · January 17

Yes

Normals in basegame should be adjusted a bit. If they are supposed to serve as entry level content, mechanics should not be as ignorable as they are now.

Also, all hm's need banners that can be disabled and crag trials should have their trifectas.

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Would you like to see a difficulty update for instanced content

Would you like to see a difficulty update for instanced content 87 votes