People rerolling and leaving game over Nightblade broken/underpowered

martymart76_ESO · May 2014

getty.adam_ESO wrote: »

Darrett wrote: »

It is interesting though when I see a friend that has a 45 DK plowing through content that I have to approach tactically and then regen for a few seconds afterward, and it's a constant charge-AE-charge-AE from one group to the next for him. And it's not even VR levels yet.

Yeah, see, I can do that on my Nightblade right now (similar level) with little issue.
Lotus Fan into the group, Exploding Embers so they can't hit me, Whirling Blades until they die. Typically takes less than the four seconds of blindness induced by the Exploding Embers.

If there's a particularly nasty mob in there, I'll pop him with a Reaper's Mark before going in so he drops a little faster and buffs the ol' weapon power when he does.

Rinse, repeat.

Been working great for me for a long time; but I'm well aware that it will likely lose effectiveness in the VR ranks.

There is no way in oblivion you are doing that in VR5+ content.

NO way.

martymart76_ESO · May 2014

Jzthomas wrote: »

I'll start by saying that you CAN play a medium armor NB and do well (in multiple ways) in both PvE (solo and group content) and PvP (ganking and larger siege battles). OP, you want to play an assassin/rogue (high-damage stealth opener, quick burst DPS to drop single targets, then an escape). This can be done, without being a vampire, using heavy armor or using light armor. I will say, however, that given the way overcharging works at higher levels, it's usually most convenient to use a combo of armors (5/2) for any class. I don't quite understand why you're stuck on using 7 pieces of medium armor, when you could easily hit the stamina regen soft cap with 5 pieces and use the other 2 slots to help magicka management or mitigation. I used 7 medium for most of my leveling and honestly did not struggle with solo'ing in PvE, or with PvP. Also, the "stealthy escape" bit can be tricky and you'll likely end up having to deal with more than 1 target if there's more than 1 around.

Now I run 5 medium 2 light, and use dual daggers, a bow and a 2h. Dual daggers are always equipped, and the bow and 2h are swapped based on the situation in PvP. In PvE, I just use whichever I feel like using at the time.

In PvE, blood craze and leeching strikes can keep me alive through mostly anything. My DW bar uses these two abilities, and then the common shadowy disguise, surprise attack and killer's blade trio. In PvP, siphoning strikes is swapped out for swallow soul and blood craze for flying blade. My 2H bar uses 4/5 2h weapon skills (no cleave, except for if i'm trying to build alt super quick in dungeons) and reaper's mark (immovable is sometimes on this bar in PvP). My bow bar uses two bow abilities (varies depending on the situation), crippling grasp or prolonged suffering, reaper's mark and then either mass hysteria, focused attacks or swallow soul.

In PvP, between my assassination/shadow ablities and flying blade, I can do very high damage out of stealth, kite my target and keep my stamina high enough to roll/CC break to keep myself out of trouble (this is all through ONE bar, no weapon switching). Opening with stealth, stunning through cloak/surprise attack, and then rolling out of their immediate range and dropping flying blade repeatedly can bring down DKs (a NB assassins's hardest target) 90% of the time if we're the same level. Insert immovable into that mix, and things become easier. The same can be applied to other targets. Tanks are, of course, harder to take down but can be dropped fairly quickly with smart ult usage (soul tether is great for already-engaged fights, and can be built up to fairly quickly), repeatedly cloaking and stunning, and quick reactions.

If there are 2-3 targets, I can usually drop the first with dual daggers quickly enough to be able to switch to my bow/2h and use knockbacks/siphoning abilities to bring down 1-2 more as well. I generally try to focus on using class abilities on my DW bar, and then just stamina dump on my bow/2h for additional targets. This is my "lazy"approach. It's far more effective, I've found, to use potions in longer encounters with a single target or when going for a second or third kill and focus on constantly using magicka, up until stamina dumping is a must. If you use alchemy as a crafting skill, the passives from that tree + the potion passive for NBs can make potions extremely useful. Even with only 2 light pieces, I can keep my magicka from depleting through two player kills (on players of the same level) just by constantly watching it, pacing myself and using potions appropriately.

When it comes to groups/dungeons, this kind of rogue/assassin is really most useful for dropping bosses quickly. Using reaper's mark on adds back-to-back can give you a hefty 30 second damage boost (which seems to stack) that can help you do tons of damage to a marked boss with class abilities or weapon skills. The cloak makes it easy to avoid damage if you're targeted, even though it seems not to work occasionally. We do have some CC that can help with the trash and adds (stealth + soul tether is one of the most ridiculously powerful things out there, especially with how quickly you can build ult in dungeons with siphoning + soul harvest). I've yet to struggle with a dungeon with an appropriately leveled party.

I could go through the food/potions I use, but really a lot of that just depends on what your stats are looking like, whether or not certain things have hit their soft caps, etc...

tl:dr: the assassin/rogue NB is viable. You can succeed primarily using medium armor, or even just medium armor, no staves, and without the vampire skill line. I rarely see anyone who isn't shield bashing or talon'ing lowbies drop single targets as quickly as me in PvP and I have good sustained DPS in PvE group content, as well as great initial bursts from stealth. There are also plenty of options to help you get through solo content (mass hysteria, prolonged suffering, weapon skill knock backs, etc...).

Some general tips if you're struggling with this build in PvP (these can really apply to most classes):

- block when suspecting pulls
- use active armor abilities (immovable doesn't require heavy armor to use - i'm pretty sure that was conscious decision on the dev's part)
- consider a 5/2 armor set up if you're using 7 medium. this set up helps you to better make use of your stat distribution a lot of the time.
- consider the vampire skill line. I get it, some people just don't want to use it. But it has a great escape, which really benefits this kind of playstyle. It's not OP, if that's your holdup. The passives bug on death the majority of the time, stopping to feed in PvP without the passive that helps health regen is disruptive, and the ult has been addressed (I would like to see it nerfed more vs. players though).
- use potions. we have a great potion passive for a reason.

Some for PvE:

- don't underestimate your CC.
- make use of weapon skill knockbacks, snares, etc...
- try different combos of abilities. being stuck on using the same ults/rotation is bad for anyone. try different things, a lot of our abilities are more useful than you'd think, despite the unresponsiveness and buginess of many of the them.

The argument that every class can do what NBs can, but better, is really not accurate. NBs make GREAT tanks (there's a whole other thread on this with fantastic posts illustrating their usefulness as tanks). NB DPS light/medium armor builds can drop single targets stupidly fast, and reaper's mark makes their player-hopping ability crazy. I'd love to see a good sorc or templar take me and a good friend (of any class) down back-to-back... even with us not expecting it, it would be tough. I could keep going. At the end of the day, you are what you spec to be. Don't expect a varied, high-utility character if you spec to gank and don't expect to drop single targets quickly if one you have a ton of AoE/support on your bars.

Though I appreciate your lengthy and ....instructive (read: cookie cutter) input, I stopped listening to what you type after you said "heavy and light armor."

That's the entire antithesis to the point I and the others are making about the nightblade class. We should not be in heavy or light armor as a melee dual weilding assassin type character.

Jzthomas · May 2014

A lot of what I'm seeing in this thread is people posting rotations/builds that have worked for them in PvE and PvP, and the OP just blatantly telling them they're wrong about their own characters. It's almost as if you don't want to believe that the class is good (despite the ability bugs).

Multiple people here have stated that they don't run a vamp, primarily use medium armor and are doing just fine.

You have to keep in mind, OP, that potions, food, jewelry/weapon/armor enchantments (and their tiers), armor/weapon tier, set effects, and stat dist/soft cap management all have significant effects on a player's success in both PvE and PvP. Perhaps these players that run medium armor/DW without being a vamp that are having more success than you are simply doing a better job making use of these other combat elements? It's not all about skill bar set ups, rotations, armor type and weapon selection. I used medium armor (7/7) until VR7 and was doing well in PvE, and very well, I'd say, in PvP. My 5/2 set up now honestly just makes it a little easier for me to manage soft caps and helps me pop cloak once more per fight. And, keep in mind, that comes at the cost of weapon crit, which is very useful in prolonged encounters in both PvE and PvP.

Jzthomas · May 2014

martymart76_ESO wrote: »

Jzthomas wrote: »

Though I appreciate your lengthy and ....instructive (read: cookie cutter) input, I stopped listening to what you type after you said "heavy and light armor."

That's the entire antithesis to the point I and the others are making about the nightblade class. We should not be in heavy or light armor as a melee dual weilding assassin type character.

If you had continued reading, instead of being dismissive, you'd realize that I was stating that you can do well WITHOUT heavy/light armors, not by using them. I quite literally state that I used 7 medium for the majority of my leveling (well beyond VR5) in the same paragraph, and now use a 5/2 medium/light set up.

ShedsHisTail · May 2014

martymart76_ESO wrote: »

getty.adam_ESO wrote: »

Darrett wrote: »

It is interesting though when I see a friend that has a 45 DK plowing through content that I have to approach tactically and then regen for a few seconds afterward, and it's a constant charge-AE-charge-AE from one group to the next for him. And it's not even VR levels yet.

Yeah, see, I can do that on my Nightblade right now (similar level) with little issue.
Lotus Fan into the group, Exploding Embers so they can't hit me, Whirling Blades until they die. Typically takes less than the four seconds of blindness induced by the Exploding Embers.

If there's a particularly nasty mob in there, I'll pop him with a Reaper's Mark before going in so he drops a little faster and buffs the ol' weapon power when he does.

Rinse, repeat.

Been working great for me for a long time; but I'm well aware that it will likely lose effectiveness in the VR ranks.

There is no way in oblivion you are doing that in VR5+ content.

NO way.

Yeah, like I said in my last sentence; I know it's going to have to change when I get there. And I'm okay with that.

DeLindsay · May 2014

martymart76_ESO wrote: »

There is no way in oblivion you are doing that in VR5+ content.

NO way.

At VR4 (and NB Archer) I have every single Skyshard in the VR++ zones (except the phased content south of that keep in Bangkori because you have to finish a questline to unlock it. I have the achievement for every delve boss (most I killed solo, a few there were other players around). Granted it takes me a while of careful positioning and not taking on more than I can handle with my skills at NB but KILLING VR10 mobs is easy, it's when they hit you that hurts. I've died to a 2 pack in VR because I got stupid and wasn't paying attention, but I've also solo'd some WB and many of the delve bosses because I paid attention to the fight mechanics.

People can whine all they want about this class or that class but in no way is NB underpowered if you actually learn how to play it. I have admitted before there are tons of bugs with NB abilities and passives but none are game breaking and they are being fixed.

Therium104 · May 2014

martymart76_ESO wrote: »

Jzthomas wrote: »

I'll start by saying that you CAN play a medium armor NB and do well (in multiple ways) in both PvE (solo and group content) and PvP (ganking and larger siege battles). OP, you want to play an assassin/rogue (high-damage stealth opener, quick burst DPS to drop single targets, then an escape). This can be done, without being a vampire, using heavy armor or using light armor. I will say, however, that given the way overcharging works at higher levels, it's usually most convenient to use a combo of armors (5/2) for any class. I don't quite understand why you're stuck on using 7 pieces of medium armor, when you could easily hit the stamina regen soft cap with 5 pieces and use the other 2 slots to help magicka management or mitigation. I used 7 medium for most of my leveling and honestly did not struggle with solo'ing in PvE, or with PvP. Also, the "stealthy escape" bit can be tricky and you'll likely end up having to deal with more than 1 target if there's more than 1 around.

Now I run 5 medium 2 light, and use dual daggers, a bow and a 2h. Dual daggers are always equipped, and the bow and 2h are swapped based on the situation in PvP. In PvE, I just use whichever I feel like using at the time.

In PvE, blood craze and leeching strikes can keep me alive through mostly anything. My DW bar uses these two abilities, and then the common shadowy disguise, surprise attack and killer's blade trio. In PvP, siphoning strikes is swapped out for swallow soul and blood craze for flying blade. My 2H bar uses 4/5 2h weapon skills (no cleave, except for if i'm trying to build alt super quick in dungeons) and reaper's mark (immovable is sometimes on this bar in PvP). My bow bar uses two bow abilities (varies depending on the situation), crippling grasp or prolonged suffering, reaper's mark and then either mass hysteria, focused attacks or swallow soul.

In PvP, between my assassination/shadow ablities and flying blade, I can do very high damage out of stealth, kite my target and keep my stamina high enough to roll/CC break to keep myself out of trouble (this is all through ONE bar, no weapon switching). Opening with stealth, stunning through cloak/surprise attack, and then rolling out of their immediate range and dropping flying blade repeatedly can bring down DKs (a NB assassins's hardest target) 90% of the time if we're the same level. Insert immovable into that mix, and things become easier. The same can be applied to other targets. Tanks are, of course, harder to take down but can be dropped fairly quickly with smart ult usage (soul tether is great for already-engaged fights, and can be built up to fairly quickly), repeatedly cloaking and stunning, and quick reactions.

If there are 2-3 targets, I can usually drop the first with dual daggers quickly enough to be able to switch to my bow/2h and use knockbacks/siphoning abilities to bring down 1-2 more as well. I generally try to focus on using class abilities on my DW bar, and then just stamina dump on my bow/2h for additional targets. This is my "lazy"approach. It's far more effective, I've found, to use potions in longer encounters with a single target or when going for a second or third kill and focus on constantly using magicka, up until stamina dumping is a must. If you use alchemy as a crafting skill, the passives from that tree + the potion passive for NBs can make potions extremely useful. Even with only 2 light pieces, I can keep my magicka from depleting through two player kills (on players of the same level) just by constantly watching it, pacing myself and using potions appropriately.

When it comes to groups/dungeons, this kind of rogue/assassin is really most useful for dropping bosses quickly. Using reaper's mark on adds back-to-back can give you a hefty 30 second damage boost (which seems to stack) that can help you do tons of damage to a marked boss with class abilities or weapon skills. The cloak makes it easy to avoid damage if you're targeted, even though it seems not to work occasionally. We do have some CC that can help with the trash and adds (stealth + soul tether is one of the most ridiculously powerful things out there, especially with how quickly you can build ult in dungeons with siphoning + soul harvest). I've yet to struggle with a dungeon with an appropriately leveled party.

I could go through the food/potions I use, but really a lot of that just depends on what your stats are looking like, whether or not certain things have hit their soft caps, etc...

tl:dr: the assassin/rogue NB is viable. You can succeed primarily using medium armor, or even just medium armor, no staves, and without the vampire skill line. I rarely see anyone who isn't shield bashing or talon'ing lowbies drop single targets as quickly as me in PvP and I have good sustained DPS in PvE group content, as well as great initial bursts from stealth. There are also plenty of options to help you get through solo content (mass hysteria, prolonged suffering, weapon skill knock backs, etc...).

Some general tips if you're struggling with this build in PvP (these can really apply to most classes):

- block when suspecting pulls
- use active armor abilities (immovable doesn't require heavy armor to use - i'm pretty sure that was conscious decision on the dev's part)
- consider a 5/2 armor set up if you're using 7 medium. this set up helps you to better make use of your stat distribution a lot of the time.
- consider the vampire skill line. I get it, some people just don't want to use it. But it has a great escape, which really benefits this kind of playstyle. It's not OP, if that's your holdup. The passives bug on death the majority of the time, stopping to feed in PvP without the passive that helps health regen is disruptive, and the ult has been addressed (I would like to see it nerfed more vs. players though).
- use potions. we have a great potion passive for a reason.

Some for PvE:

- don't underestimate your CC.
- make use of weapon skill knockbacks, snares, etc...
- try different combos of abilities. being stuck on using the same ults/rotation is bad for anyone. try different things, a lot of our abilities are more useful than you'd think, despite the unresponsiveness and buginess of many of the them.

The argument that every class can do what NBs can, but better, is really not accurate. NBs make GREAT tanks (there's a whole other thread on this with fantastic posts illustrating their usefulness as tanks). NB DPS light/medium armor builds can drop single targets stupidly fast, and reaper's mark makes their player-hopping ability crazy. I'd love to see a good sorc or templar take me and a good friend (of any class) down back-to-back... even with us not expecting it, it would be tough. I could keep going. At the end of the day, you are what you spec to be. Don't expect a varied, high-utility character if you spec to gank and don't expect to drop single targets quickly if one you have a ton of AoE/support on your bars.

Though I appreciate your lengthy and ....instructive (read: cookie cutter) input, I stopped listening to what you type after you said "heavy and light armor."

That's the entire antithesis to the point I and the others are making about the nightblade class. We should not be in heavy or light armor as a melee dual weilding assassin type character.

Lol. Nightblades...... Every class can wear any type of armor in this game. If you choose to suck because you are not using effective builds and the tools available to you then stop complaining.

Please be terrible in silence. It is the old I want to play how I want (no matter how bad) and nerf or buff the game around me my lack of skill or ability. Lol. Nightblades!!!!

TheBull · May 2014

If DKs have 20k+ effective health (dragon blood) and Sorc can blink out of anything, NBs should be able to stealth and have CC immunity.

edit- you know what, how about fixing the broken ass in/out of combat mechanics..

dracobains_ESO · May 2014

This is just silly. I am so stupidly powerful with this build:

http://esohead.com/calculator/skills#mcsz9s85bzz7zztyfm8zf7zzNbo8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

I solo everything and don't even break a sweat. Most things just die when they see me coming. If you can't be so totally awesome like me then you should go suck elsewhere...

I have heard this egotistical dribble in every game I have ever played for over a decade. While I appreciate those of you who have offered meaningful insights in this thread, it is MY opinion the epeeners are the ones who should go elsewhere. If you want to help instruct people on how to manage this content better through your insights, please offer it, but you have no right to delegitimize another person's frustration because you think you are god and they suck.

Every person on this planet is ill informed about many topics and we cannot all be geniuses at everything. If you think you are great at this game and have a solution for people offer that constructive insight and stop being so juvenile and calling everyone else insufficient players.

dracobains_ESO · May 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

At VR4 (and NB Archer) I have every single Skyshard in the VR++ zones (except the phased content south of that keep in Bangkori because you have to finish a questline to unlock it. I have the achievement for every delve boss (most I killed solo, a few there were other players around). Granted it takes me a while of careful positioning and not taking on more than I can handle with my skills at NB but KILLING VR10 mobs is easy, it's when they hit you that hurts. I've died to a 2 pack in VR because I got stupid and wasn't paying attention, but I've also solo'd some WB and many of the delve bosses because I paid attention to the fight mechanics.

So tell me how you killed the Gargoyle that was immune to snares and knockbacks? Certainly you could use cripple but there are tons of mobs around that respawned quickly making kiting a bit rough. Also, what do you do when you get a caster mob that can kill you in three hits? Can't kite them... Seriously, I would like to know how you manage these mobs with a bow because I know there is much I can improve upon. Thanks

martymart76_ESO · May 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

martymart76_ESO wrote: »

There is no way in oblivion you are doing that in VR5+ content.

NO way.

At VR4 (and NB Archer) I have every single Skyshard in the VR++ zones (except the phased content south of that keep in Bangkori because you have to finish a questline to unlock it. I have the achievement for every delve boss (most I killed solo, a few there were other players around). Granted it takes me a while of careful positioning and not taking on more than I can handle with my skills at NB but KILLING VR10 mobs is easy, it's when they hit you that hurts. I've died to a 2 pack in VR because I got stupid and wasn't paying attention, but I've also solo'd some WB and many of the delve bosses because I paid attention to the fight mechanics.

People can whine all they want about this class or that class but in no way is NB underpowered if you actually learn how to play it. I have admitted before there are tons of bugs with NB abilities and passives but none are game breaking and they are being fixed.

Jzthomas wrote: »

A lot of what I'm seeing in this thread is people posting rotations/builds that have worked for them in PvE and PvP, and the OP just blatantly telling them they're wrong about their own characters. It's almost as if you don't want to believe that the class is good (despite the ability bugs).

Multiple people here have stated that they don't run a vamp, primarily use medium armor and are doing just fine.

You have to keep in mind, OP, that potions, food, jewelry/weapon/armor enchantments (and their tiers), armor/weapon tier, set effects, and stat dist/soft cap management all have significant effects on a player's success in both PvE and PvP. Perhaps these players that run medium armor/DW without being a vamp that are having more success than you are simply doing a better job making use of these other combat elements? It's not all about skill bar set ups, rotations, armor type and weapon selection. I used medium armor (7/7) until VR7 and was doing well in PvE, and very well, I'd say, in PvP. My 5/2 set up now honestly just makes it a little easier for me to manage soft caps and helps me pop cloak once more per fight. And, keep in mind, that comes at the cost of weapon crit, which is very useful in prolonged encounters in both PvE and PvP.

Nobody on here is running all medium DW non-vampire and doing a better job.

Take this up against Skrilla, a VR10 Nightblade who has used parsings and damage meters and has even posted videos of his build, etc, and showing how weak and underpowered and in need of some balancing issues the assassin type rogue-type NightBLADE (not NightRESTOSTAFF, or NightBOW) spec is.

This entire game was advertised as a "play how you want" and it's not the case. Not only that, I am not trying out some weird stupid build. I have researched and read and reddited and forumed up more info than you have, I am willing to bet, on this class, and even the Devs have flat out admitted openly that the class needs some serious balance.

So your entire condescending asshattery of a post is moot.

Loco_Mofo · May 2014

Therium104 wrote: »

Lol. Nightblades...... Every class can wear any type of armor in this game. If you choose to suck because you are not using effective builds and the tools available to you then stop complaining.

Please be terrible in silence. It is the old I want to play how I want (no matter how bad) and nerf or buff the game around me my lack of skill or ability. Lol. Nightblades!!!!

LOL how would you know? You're a DK...

You are the joke of these whole forums.

DeLindsay · May 2014

dracobains_ESO wrote: »

So tell me how you killed the Gargoyle that was immune to snares and knockbacks? Certainly you could use cripple but there are tons of mobs around that respawned quickly making kiting a bit rough. Also, what do you do when you get a caster mob that can kill you in three hits? Can't kite them... Seriously, I would like to know how you manage these mobs with a bow because I know there is much I can improve upon. Thanks

Very simple, I don't. I have tried the Gargoyles even at level and because they seem immune to everything I just can't burn them before I run out of tricks (Invis/pots/etc). I also don't even try with the Elite Trolls (brown ones) that are over my level, AT level their health regen makes it hard enough. Just about all mobs in VR can kill me in 3 hits, the point is I don't let them hit me 3 times. This is with 5pc Medium leather, 2pc Light and my damage at VR4 with a blue crafted bow is 164/168 while in combat and crouched/stealthed due to my weapon glyph. My sneak attack (Marked Target does not work for me) alone hits for ~1K if it's fully charged and VR10 normal mobs have ~2800 health. Also my Bow has Sharpened trait for 10% armor pen instead of + crit since I go over 100% when I use Shadowy Disguise and have 2.9 seconds of that for full heavy draw. And I use the 3pc Nightmother's Gaze for another 20% arpen on crits with 'The Shadow' Mundus using full Divines.

I start with sneak-heavy on any ranged or casters in the group while double dipping into Venon Arrow then Crippling Grasp then [Shadowy Disguise] for a 2nd Heavy Attack (with 100% crit) and finish that mob with Impale. Nothing under 3K hp can survive that opener and I haven't taken a single hit from anything by that point. [Shadowy Disguise] again for a 3rd Heavy Attack and double dip with Draining Shot on any melee that is now very close to me, same rotation for that mob (or same again for the 2nd melee almost on me). By this point I have taken usually 1 hit and will usually take another before I burn the 2nd mob and/or kill the 3rd. I use a crafted potion made with Bugloss-Columbine-Mtn Flower to keep my burst going.

Yes, I have died to VR mobs over my level, yes I have died to VR mobs OF my level, but usually if I time everything right and pay attention to the combat I come out the winner, I just can't run through pulling everything and expect to live, exactly like it should be.

dracobains_ESO · May 2014

My biggest issue is dealing with 2 ranged in a combat situation with a bow. Most melee are easy to counter. I have been shifting to using some other techniques for various fights like Shades and Disguise which work well in various situations but if 2 of 3 mobs are casters it just seems like a nightmare for bow. I have tried opening with Agony to CC one but it messes up the timing and dps burn for me quite a bit. So I have just come to avoid those fights. I have also run across some elite casters that I had a real hard time DPSing before I imploded. Some quests where I have to kill an elite gargoyle for instance become total meat grinders trying with a bow likewise some elite casters.

What weapon glyph are you using? Ultimate of choice? and why Crippling Grasp for a ranged mob?

Thanks.

Chirru · May 2014

Look, the NB can do...but compared to other classes it does do badly.

how does it go.... as NB I take down 1 1/2 very quickly and what then...yes, good question... you are stuck with the other 1 1/2 and at the moment you fight as any other class does without the benefits other classes have.
(Yes I know...there are ways around that problem. These however are ways any class can use on top of what they already have.)

solution: either give the NB abilities that mach the other classes, or give a quick escape ability.

I really would not mind at all for the NB to have an armor buff like the DK and the Sorc have. Imagine, a NB with lightning armor...now that would be a show.

Imagine this scenario. NB sneaks, jumps target, brings down the target in 2 secs flat. Puts on Lightning armor and fights the other two. Bingo...not a problem in the world.

Overpowered you say? Well, my Sorc does exactly that. She nukes the first one from distance. The second one is done in by pets and the third one is done in by lightning armor and weapon and pets. Easy as....

Personally I would prefer a quick-escape option. But either would be fine.... as long as there is a reasonable chance to fight the groups of enemies found in dungeons. Right now I just sneak and wait until someone else (DK or Sorc) comes and engages. Then I kill steal and get air-hit as result for 5 minutes by upset players.

I have reached the point where my only aim in dungeons is to sneak to the shard and sneak out. If it is busy I might try a hit at the boss and get the achievement..else....bah.

I have tried all the so cleverly worked out skill builds suggested in the forum. True, some are pretty good and work some of the time. But most fail rather quickly and suddenly when you need them most.
The vampire build works well, but not everyone wants to be a vampire. I have my own build that works very well indeed with two targets...comes three... I got sick of re-spawning...

My conclusion NB needs TLC, and until the class gets it, it s.cks and will continue to do so.

DeLindsay · May 2014

dracobains_ESO wrote: »

What weapon glyph are you using? Ultimate of choice? and why Crippling Grasp for a ranged mob?

Thanks.

Weapon Glyph = Rage (+14 weapon damage for 5 seconds, while in combat)
Ring Glyphs = Physical Harm (+9 weapon damage each, always on)
Armor Traits = all 7 Divines
Mudus Stone = The Shadow (increases crit ceiling)
Armor Glyphs = all 7 Magicka
Attribute spread = 4/0/44* (just OVER soft cap for both with food)
Ultimate = Soul Assault

*At VR5 I will change this again to probably 0/8/40 or something close to that with the 312 food instead of the 283 now.

I also have every possible passive that increases damage done, crit chance and crit ceiling, including weapon speed which currently doesn't effect Bow but it will once they fix it.

Criplling Grasp has the highest damage amount for a ranged based Magicka ability compared to all other abilities. I swap this out for Degeneration in MG if I need some self healing though the damage is halved.

DeLindsay · May 2014

Chirru wrote: »

I really would not mind at all for the NB to have an armor buff like the DK and the Sorc have. Imagine, a NB with lightning armor...now that would be a show.

Imagine this scenario. NB sneaks, jumps target, brings down the target in 2 secs flat. Puts on Lightning armor and fights the other two. Bingo...not a problem in the world.

NB does have that, for 4 seconds. Actually ours is even better from a mitigation standpoint. I get VERY close to hard cap for resists and armor for 4 seconds out of crouch and invis. I'm not saying NB doesn't need some love, we do indeed have a ton of broken abilities and passives, but it isn't necessary for all 4 "classes" to be capable of the exact same type of pulls for them to all be viable. I really hope ZoS fixes ALL the class/skill/quest/zone bugs while resisting the temptation to homogenize the classes like every other MMO seems to do. Once the bugs get fixed for NB all will be right as rain and people will stop bitching (as much) or they'll find something new to *** about, such is the internet.

vicNBitis · May 2014

As long as the most efficient way to level is AOE spam NB will be gimped. A DK or sorc can chain run a public dungeon and accomplish in hours what it would take an NB days to do. Whether that's a problem that be fixed I've no idea.

OkieDokie · May 2014

Tons of broken passives, poor mob control, high cost of class skills, 2 of the 3 top class skills are useless...yeah, can't get it why people complain about NB...

ZeroTheCat · May 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

dracobains_ESO wrote: »

What weapon glyph are you using? Ultimate of choice? and why Crippling Grasp for a ranged mob?

Thanks.

...

Attribute spread = 4/0/44* (just OVER soft cap for both with food)
Ultimate = Soul Assault

*At VR5 I will change this again to probably 0/8/40 or something close to that with the 312 food instead of the 283 now.
...

Is that Magica/Health/Stamina? :-o

Jzthomas · May 2014

martymart76_ESO wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

martymart76_ESO wrote: »

There is no way in oblivion you are doing that in VR5+ content.

NO way.

Jzthomas wrote: »

A lot of what I'm seeing in this thread is people posting rotations/builds that have worked for them in PvE and PvP, and the OP just blatantly telling them they're wrong about their own characters. It's almost as if you don't want to believe that the class is good (despite the ability bugs).

Multiple people here have stated that they don't run a vamp, primarily use medium armor and are doing just fine.

You have to keep in mind, OP, that potions, food, jewelry/weapon/armor enchantments (and their tiers), armor/weapon tier, set effects, and stat dist/soft cap management all have significant effects on a player's success in both PvE and PvP. Perhaps these players that run medium armor/DW without being a vamp that are having more success than you are simply doing a better job making use of these other combat elements? It's not all about skill bar set ups, rotations, armor type and weapon selection. I used medium armor (7/7) until VR7 and was doing well in PvE, and very well, I'd say, in PvP. My 5/2 set up now honestly just makes it a little easier for me to manage soft caps and helps me pop cloak once more per fight. And, keep in mind, that comes at the cost of weapon crit, which is very useful in prolonged encounters in both PvE and PvP.

Nobody on here is running all medium DW non-vampire and doing a better job.

Take this up against Skrilla, a VR10 Nightblade who has used parsings and damage meters and has even posted videos of his build, etc, and showing how weak and underpowered and in need of some balancing issues the assassin type rogue-type NightBLADE (not NightRESTOSTAFF, or NightBOW) spec is.

This entire game was advertised as a "play how you want" and it's not the case. Not only that, I am not trying out some weird stupid build. I have researched and read and reddited and forumed up more info than you have, I am willing to bet, on this class, and even the Devs have flat out admitted openly that the class needs some serious balance.

So your entire condescending asshattery of a post is moot.

1. No one is being condescending. I offered reasons as to why you may be struggling (poor use of food, potions, stat dist, etc...). There's nothing condescending about that. Maybe you're making good use of that kind of stuff already, but I know tons of players (not just NBs) that are not and struggle because of it. Others have offered you ideas/approaches that they say are highly efficient and proof the NB assassin is viable, and you've shot them down for either 1) not posting all of their build details or 2) simply disagreeing with your notion that the NB assassin is useless. Maybe they take pride in what they've created and would like to keep it theirs? Maybe some people ARE having success with this type of NB? Your experience and what you've seen on forums, fansites, etc... do not define the limits of the class. The devs have said, in regards to the NB, that certain abilities (path of darkness, and the shade I believe) would be buffed in 1.2 to offer more viable abilities to players. Beyond that, I've only seen them acknowledge the buginess of class abilities/passives. Please show me where they've said a 7/7 medium, non-vamp, DW NB needs to be balanced for because it is not viable.

2. Apparently, I was doing better than you as a medium/DW assassin at VR5+, considering that I found no issues leveling or matching up with other classes in PvP. Instead of dismissing that notion, why don't you post your build, rotations, etc... and I can tell you what I did differently when I used full medium. I'm not a vamp, btw.

3. If you're held up on ONLY using 7/7 medium and DW, you honestly should be struggling a bit, imo. The notion that that the devs should balance the class around how you want to play is just not reasonable. If everyone decided they wanted to use ONE set of armor and ONE weapon type, and ignore most other skill lines, and then expected the devs to make that class as viable as something significantly more layered, this game would become ridiculously easy and builds would become less vaired very quick. If people could use a setup that simple and match everyone else, why invest in multiple weapons, situational rotations, armor hybriding, etc...?

4. I've seen you use past ES games (the Oblivion NB, I believe) to argue why a medium armor DW assassin should be viable, because it's the most nightbladish. Its primary skills in that game are as follows: Destruction, Acrobatics, Athletics, Alteration, Blade, Light Armor, and Restoration. It's specialization is "Magic," not Combat or even Stealth. Its primary attributes are willpower (magic-focused attribute) and speed. In Morrowind, 3/5 major skills are magic and one of the five minor skills is magic-based. Again, its specialization is magic and its primary attributes are willpower and speed. Please explain how the preset NB classes/ES lore led you to believe, coming into this game, that the NB was strictly a leather wearing DW assassin? How is a restrostaff/destrostaff or even a bow (minor skill in Morrowind) a contradiction to the NB archetype? Just looking at the past, NBs are meant to use restro/destro.

Really, the most constructive thing you could do is fully explain your build and rotations and have people critique it. I'm not familiar with every person who's struggling with this kind of NB playstyle, but I'm familiar with plenty who thrive using it and love being able to player-hop in PvP (and get rewarded for doing so) and do great DPS against bosses in dungeons late-game. It may very well be the case that your perception of this as a broken playstyle is the result of you and others you've come across struggling in the same ways/with the same things, which others are not struggling in/with.

And, I'll point out again, to the people saying NBs are underpowered in general: they make good tanks, good healers (even though they lack some burst in that department when compared to temps), and good AoE DPS's (I've seen a few great NB AoE builds now, and I believe there's one on the front page of this forum right now), as well as good single-target DPS's.

Jzthomas · May 2014

OkieDokie wrote: »

Tons of broken passives, poor mob control, high cost of class skills, 2 of the 3 top class skills are useless...yeah, can't get it why people complain about NB...

Do you not make use of prolonged suffering and our fear? Those + Crippling grasp and our stealth stun give us more than enough to manage groups. That's not even taking into consideration weapon skill knockbacks or the fact that we can essentially immediately eliminate one enemy from a group with a stealth opener.

Passives are broken, no arguing that.

Please elaborate on high cost of class skills.

Tzikness · May 2014

I have been enjoying a new build now at vr

1-vr2 i was just using bow skills and strife with a 50/50 hp and stamina attribute distribution with 7/7 medium armour. Then I found I had no chance at killing more than 1 random mob at a time. After watching some youtube tips I switched to this:

Healing staff w/the 10% damage increase when at full hp
1. Strife w/improved healing morph
2. Killers blade
3. shadowy disguise
4. concealed weapon
5. summon shade
Ult - soul harvest

I'm still in full leather for sneaking but switched to 50/50 magika and hp

While crouching, cast shade at 1 mob. The group will focus on him so I can sneak up on one and concealed weapon>exploit with heavy attack> strife> killers blade. Then just crouch and walk away about 8 meters and you go from detected to hidden and repeat.

The only thing that worries me is when I had strife morphed to heal others, it would heal the shade causing the group to attack me, and now i want to get the healing staff mod to heal an ally on heavy attack but I'm positive this will go to the shade and send them after me again

I don't think either shade mob will help me with his strategy. I wish the morphs were an archer that lets you warp or instead of the 2 crappy shades, it would summon him behind your target turning them around letting you open up without having to wait for him to stroll up to them, or sometimes not appearing or just standing there.

dracobains_ESO · May 2014

Jzthomas wrote: »

... 1) not posting all of their build details or 2) simply disagreeing with your notion that the NB assassin is useless. Maybe they take pride in what they've created and would like to keep it theirs?

Honestly, if people are having success and not sharing their thoughts on how but telling everyone else they suck, it is a bit absurd, condescending, and pointless. It is like a bunch of kids debating whose dad is going to beat up the other dads. So if you want to have a meaningful conversation about the supposition from the OP, then actually participate. If you prefer to be secretive for whatever reason then maintain your muted decision.

There are numerous reasons why there is a general struggle with this class. One main reason is sometimes the descriptions of abilities are vague and not clear as to application. There are no expanded insights into these abilities on their website offering further explanation. Compound this with the multitude of bugs I have read and heard about and it becomes a quagmire of "what is working as intended what is bugged?"

There is a lot of nuance to this game which gives it depth but also makes the learning curve steeper. Nuance and cryptic descriptions is also not a good combo though.

The content can be extremely unforgiving. As many have mentioned, you cannot take more than a couple hits which is very unusual to an MMO environment. There are also some mobs you simply cannot defeat their mechanics with certain setups. These setups are nothing strange or unusual they are traditional rogue setups.

So it is very easy to understand the high level of frustration. I know the developers thought it beneficial to make all fights very challenging, but it gets exhausting. If I cannot relax between battles and I am tense all night it is not fun. I am not on Ridlin nor am I a young pup in need of constant stimulation.

Lastly, let me point out that I find it necessary to use several different makeups to have success with most of this content and there are some fights I just couldn't resolve without some gimmicky process or bringing a friend. Many players play an MMO largely because they love playing a certain archetype. For me it is my love of that classic Tolkienesque Strider aka Aragorn. A ranger good with bows and small weapons. So for me to consider using a damn magical staff or vampirism is a bit like blasphemy. I would rather go play another game than be forced into this style of gameplay and in fact many people already have left due to this.

If I did not care about this game I would not even come to these forums. We all have our visions of what constitutes a good fantasy style MMO, but ultimately it is up to the devs to steer that vision and for us to accept it or not. I love this PVP model so I want this game to work for me but I am absolutely hating Veteran content. I cannot express this disdain without a rabid tirade and string of expletives so I instead endeavor to offer what I hope is meaningful and constructive criticism in hopes things will change. So I am staying civil, but when I log into the game I look for any excuse not to do VR content because the moment I do I am pissed off about it. Where is the enjoyment in that?

Sleepwalker · May 2014

*grabs a handful of popcorn* Wow... The tension is palpable.

You're not looking for help, suggestions, or constructive anything. You've got your "dukes" up, and you're venting about your frustrations with the Nightblade class. I didn't realize that, but I get it now. It's honestly all good. Get it out, brother.

koregen · May 2014

In my opinion this is why the nightblade class is broken. We have no aoe damage from our class skills, we have no aoe cc, we have the weakest healing by far of the 4 classes. Logic would dictate that in return we have the highest single target dps, but sadly we don't. Every class can sneak up behind a target and do a massive opening crit, this is not exclusive to nightblades. Add on top of this the staggering amount of skills that are not working as intended and you end up with a seriously underpowered class.

The lack of single target dps that NB's have really became apparent to me when doing the Vet rank fungal grotto dungeon. During one of the boss fights the boss splits into 4 and chains down a player. The sorcerer was having no problems bursting down the target, however when he got locked down and I had save him I plain and simply could not put out enough damage. I tried several different skill combinations but nothing had enough burst. After several failed attempts the group called me out on lack of dps and quite frankly I couldn't blame them, I politely stepped out so they could replace me.

I'm not saying the dungeon is undoable as a nightblade, but having a nightblade in your group puts you at a serious disadvantage. I've actually been kicked from group queue's because I'm a nightblade, they tell me sorry we don't need a nightblade.

Nightblades bring nothing valuable to group content it's really frustrating. I'd be really dissapointed if next patch does not address the nightblade issues in an aggressive way.

vicNBitis · May 2014

koregen wrote: »

I'd be really dissapointed if next patch does not address the nightblade issues in an aggressive way.

Be disappointed. DKs are getting all the love next patch:

Class

Dragonknight
Burning Breath (Fiery Breath morph): Fixed an issue where this ability was doing less damage than intended.
Burning Embers: This ability now heals you if your enemy target dies while affected by it.
Dark Talons:
This ability can now damage monsters with snare immunity.
Fixed an issue where allies were not able to activate the synergy from Dark Talons.
Inhale (and morphs): This ability’s initial life drain morphs can now hit a maximum of three targets. This also applies to Inhale’s morphs.
Petrify (and morphs): The enemy target’s health regeneration bonus while they were affected by Petrify and its morphs has been removed.
Razor Armor: Fixed an issue where this ability wasn’t granting bonus armor for the first 3.5 seconds.
Spiked Armor (and morphs): The damage return for this ability and its morphs has been increased.

khele23eb17_ESO · May 2014

Well you have to realize by now most of their paying customers play DKs :P

Selodaoc · May 2014

BSGDevastator wrote: »

martymart76_ESO wrote: »

BSGDevastator wrote: »

martymart76_ESO wrote: »

BSGDevastator wrote: »

I am a VR1 NB who has few to absolutely none problems. I can solo Worldbosses even with useless gear and I can kill everyone except Shield users.

Here is my build for interested people:
http://www.elderscrollsbote.de/builds/vampire-nb-brawler-assassin/

The hidden blade is more or less just a decoration. I mean, assassins without throwing knives? Unthinkable for me.

A heavy/light vampire NB again.

Nobody is arguing the viability of your build. It's the standard assassin-esque rogue-esque build for which the class is known for and presented as that is having serious issues.

You are VR1. When you get up to VR3 I want to see you soloing world bosses at VR3 like DK's and Sorcerers can.

And .....try NOT being a broken vampire

I use 5 Medium Pieces and 2 Heavy pieces. The heavy pieces are just there for fabulousness. I would use full medium if chestplates and helmets weren't so ugly in medium.

Broken Vampire? I only use the speed for stealth. I don't use any active spell from the Vampire Skilltree. I could completely go without vampirism if I wouldn't be that impatient. Without the Dark Stalker passive I'm sooooo slow and I am a very impatient person. Sure, in PVP the stealth speed has a great benefit, but then again, you could switch out my Hidden Blade for Teleport Strike.

Sure, I'll update you when I'm at VR3 and soloing world bosses.

Edit: Vampire Part more description added

Cure vampirism. Use all medium armor, try to solo world bosses without using a resto staff as well.

Come back to me when you die.

You have missed the point of this entire thread. A game that tells you you can play how you want while punishing you for not being a vampire using an armor mixture isn't exactly truth in advertising.

Want my guide to defeat world bosses as NB without beeing a vampire? Here you go:

1. Sneak
2. Surprise Attack
3. Blood Craze Spam
4. Shadowy Disguise before Stun runs out
5. Stun again
6. Blood Craze Spam
7. Repeat until Cthulhu takes over the world

If you're not using Leeching Strikes, then I'm absolutely sorry for you. Some people just don't seem to be able to use a good skillbuild. You can't expect every stupid build to work..

But keep complaining because you probably took the most *** skills which can't even compete with the retardedness of my stupid cat.

Ive been doing the same. Use Siphoning strikes, find world bosses that can be stunned, shadow cloak, surpise attack, knock them down, regen magicak to 50-60% with normal attacks, go back into shadow cloak and repeat.

But imo, that is an exploit of bad AI, chainstunning the mobs to death.

It also takes longer time then other classes would do it, and if the world boss has adds, it quickly becomes impossible.

OkieDokie · May 2014

Jzthomas wrote: »

OkieDokie wrote: »

Tons of broken passives, poor mob control, high cost of class skills, 2 of the 3 top class skills are useless...yeah, can't get it why people complain about NB...

Do you not make use of prolonged suffering and our fear? Those + Crippling grasp and our stealth stun give us more than enough to manage groups. That's not even taking into consideration weapon skill knockbacks or the fact that we can essentially immediately eliminate one enemy from a group with a stealth opener.

Passives are broken, no arguing that.

Please elaborate on high cost of class skills.

When I say mob control, I mean mob, not single target (not sure why people use mob for single target here, but it doesn't matter). And yeah, agony and morphs does have a nice duration, however or it can only be used at range (breaking your first strike) or it requires shadow uses, which brings us to the high cost of skills to make it viable.

Shadow costs 345 for activation and it is a skill NB uses a lot (well, I do). Let's say...2-4 times per mob depending on the size of the pack and how you play? And of course, after a shadow use, comes another skill, concealed blades costs 230, ambush 345, fear 391 (more after morphed), siphoning skills from 230-300...

On top of that, keep in mind that shadow actually does not cost only 345, because if you're under 700 or so, it does not trigger. So, if you are at vr1, lets say 1900 magika, 37% of your magika pool must be saved for one single use of shadow. In my opinion, they are high cost skills, but feel free to correct me. Starting from shadow + concealed blades you've already used 25%...

About fear, I cannot see it working better than volcanic rune for example, but maybe it's just me.

And, as I said, haste and summon shadow, top class skills, are useless at the moment (although I really think summon will work really well when they fix it, but we are talking about how things work now anyway).

Just my two cents mate, feel free to correct me, I'll not take it personal. In fact, I'd love to find out ways to improve my gameplay.

Cheers o/