Please Rename Molag Bal Shrine (New Vampire NPC)

Aliyavana · January 13

Edit:This is confirmed that it will be fixed in Update 50.

The new Vampire Bite NPC, Azisa the Keeper, claims she loves Lamae Bal and has her vampiric strain. You find her and she states that she tends to a shrine to Molag Bal out of respect for Lamae Bal, but Lamae Bal hates Molag Bal because he violated her, and Lamae even has you kill Molag Bal worshippers. Can we please change it to a shrine to Lamae Bal?

Here is a video I found of it at the start of the video:

https://youtu.be/0X8hoTcQVp8?si=1xfptEzntyFNVo0e

LunaFlora · January 13

so odd that it's a Molag Bal shrine

Inari Telvanni · January 13

I agree with this. The entire basis of the vampire quest is rooted in Lamae reclaiming what was forced upon her.

CoolBlast3 · January 13

Agreed with this.
It is very nonsensical this is a Molag shrine tended to in devotion of Lamae. ESPECIALLY when in Lamae's vampirism quest, we -have- to desecrate a shrine of Molag Bal.
Either turn it into a Shrine of Lamae or alternatively a shrine of Molag which the Questgiver is there to desecrate. But it can't stay like this.

MincMincMinc · January 13

Almost as nonsensical as the vampire skill line having more ways to kill yourself than to lifesteal health from your enemies.

noblecron · January 13

would def make more sense if it was called a shrine to Lamae Bal

IncultaWolf · January 13

This does seem like an oversight. As someone else said, we desecrate a Molag Bal shrine during the vampire tutorial.

ArchangelIsraphel · January 13

Hmm, this kind of makes me wonder if we have a Loremaster doing checks on things...

It's a pretty big oversight. I'm hoping it's a typo because that's a very important part of the vampire lore to just...forget.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · January 13

So what happens here exactly, does she turn you, does she send you to Lamae Bal because if she herself turns then that you would make you less pure a Vampire then if you were turned by Lamae Bal directly.

Aliyavana · January 13

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what happens here exactly, does she turn you, does she send you to Lamae Bal because if she herself turns then that you would make you less pure a Vampire then if you were turned by Lamae Bal directly.

She tells you to go to an npc who then takes you to Lamae Bal

Gabriel_H · January 13

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Hmm, this kind of makes me wonder if we have a Loremaster doing checks on things...

It's a pretty big oversight. I'm hoping it's a typo because that's a very important part of the vampire lore to just...forget.

Vampiric power comes from Molag. Whether or not Lamae wants to oppose Molag, the power is rooted in him and his realm.

Syldras · January 13

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vampiric power comes from Molag. Whether or not Lamae wants to oppose Molag, the power is rooted in him and his realm.

Have you played the vampire quest in ESO?

Aliyavana · January 13

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Hmm, this kind of makes me wonder if we have a Loremaster doing checks on things...

It's a pretty big oversight. I'm hoping it's a typo because that's a very important part of the vampire lore to just...forget.

Vampiric power comes from Molag. Whether or not Lamae wants to oppose Molag, the power is rooted in him and his realm.

Vampirism originates from Molag Bal, yes, but Lamae’s clan hates Molag Bal. You literally desecrate his shrine in Lamae Bal’s quest.

The way it is worded currently feels off. Lamae is a victim of Molag Bal. You do not revere Lamae Bal by keeping a shrine to her abuser in-tact.

Avran_Sylt · January 13

Syldras wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vampiric power comes from Molag. Whether or not Lamae wants to oppose Molag, the power is rooted in him and his realm.

Have you played the vampire quest in ESO?

Not sure of the whole dynamics myself, but it seems like this could be the continuation of this kind of thing: Molag has greater power, and is now leveraging Lamae's gift out in the world with follower's who've followed him instead of her post acquiring the gift (not sure if it's something that Lamae can take away). However there's a more obscure alternate method of acquiring vampirism that follows Lamae's rebellion against Molag.

Syldras · January 13

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Not sure of the whole dynamics myself, but it seems like this could be the continuation of this kind of thing: Molag has greater power, and is now leveraging Lamae's gift out in the world with follower's who've followed him instead of her post acquiring the gift (not sure if it's something that Lamae can take away). However there's a more obscure alternate method of acquiring vampirism that follows Lamae's rebellion against Molag.

OP posted the vampire npc's dialogue in a screenshot in the first post of this thread. The npc says she tends the shrine "out of love and respect" for Lamae. In another part of the dialogue she says it's a shrine to Molag Bal. That just doesn't make any sense.

I'd find different vampiric strains (or origins, or how to call it) an interesting addition to the game, by the way. But the dialogue above just doesn't make sense in terms of lore.

Avran_Sylt · January 13

Syldras wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Not sure of the whole dynamics myself, but it seems like this could be the continuation of this kind of thing: Molag has greater power, and is now leveraging Lamae's gift out in the world with follower's who've followed him instead of her post acquiring the gift (not sure if it's something that Lamae can take away). However there's a more obscure alternate method of acquiring vampirism that follows Lamae's rebellion against Molag.

OP posted the vampire npc's dialogue in a screenshot in the first post of this thread. The npc says she tends the shrine "out of love and respect" for Lamae. In another part of the dialogue she says it's a shrine to Molag Bal. That just doesn't make any sense.

I'd find different vampiric strains (or origins, or how to call it) an interesting addition to the game, by the way. But the dialogue above just doesn't make sense in terms of lore.

Do we know the intonation of the dialogue/expressions?

Aliyavana · January 13

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Not sure of the whole dynamics myself, but it seems like this could be the continuation of this kind of thing: Molag has greater power, and is now leveraging Lamae's gift out in the world with follower's who've followed him instead of her post acquiring the gift (not sure if it's something that Lamae can take away). However there's a more obscure alternate method of acquiring vampirism that follows Lamae's rebellion against Molag.

OP posted the vampire npc's dialogue in a screenshot in the first post of this thread. The npc says she tends the shrine "out of love and respect" for Lamae. In another part of the dialogue she says it's a shrine to Molag Bal. That just doesn't make any sense.

I'd find different vampiric strains (or origins, or how to call it) an interesting addition to the game, by the way. But the dialogue above just doesn't make sense in terms of lore.

Do we know the intonation of the dialogue/expressions?

The vampire indicated nothing in her voice nor her dialogue that she had a distaste for Molag Bal. Even if we pretend that she did, the wording is currently off.

As I said previously, Molag Bal violated Lamae Bal and you do not say that you honor a victim that experienced trauma by tending to the shrine of their abuser.

Gabriel_H · January 13

Aliyavana wrote: »

The way it is worded currently feels off. Lamae is a victim of Molag Bal. You do not revere Lamae Bal by keeping a shrine to her abuser in-tact.

Victim or not, her power, and that of all other vampires comes from Molag, so a connection to Molag must be maintained.

Gabriel_H · January 13

Syldras wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vampiric power comes from Molag. Whether or not Lamae wants to oppose Molag, the power is rooted in him and his realm.

Have you played the vampire quest in ESO?

I've played every quest in ESO, what's your point? Because mine is the lore states that vampiric power comes from Molag Bal, and is rooted in him and his realm.

Does it sound like the stroy-telling is good? Not really. That doesn't change that piece of lore though.

Aliyavana · January 13

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

The way it is worded currently feels off. Lamae is a victim of Molag Bal. You do not revere Lamae Bal by keeping a shrine to her abuser in-tact.

Victim or not, her power, and that of all other vampires comes from Molag, so a connection to Molag must be maintained.

We are aware that vampirism comes from Molag Bal, but the current wording is not ok.

Inari Telvanni · January 13

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vampiric power comes from Molag. Whether or not Lamae wants to oppose Molag, the power is rooted in him and his realm.

Have you played the vampire quest in ESO?

I've played every quest in ESO, what's your point? Because mine is the lore states that vampiric power comes from Molag Bal, and is rooted in him and his realm.

Does it sound like the stroy-telling is good? Not really. That doesn't change that piece of lore though.

The lore also says that Lamae hates Molag Bal, regardless of the fact that vampires are intrinsically bound to Coldharbour in every possible way. It specifies that all of Lamae's actions, and by extension the vampires that she spawns, are based on spiting Bal. You're not really saying anything.

Faulgor · January 13

That's one of those instances out of which the unreliable narrator thing is born.

Does she know how Lamae feels about Molag Bal? If she does, maybe she actually does it to spite her? Or she respects her despite disagreeing with her about Molag Bal's gift?

Change it, or don't change it. Lorefolk will find a way to make it make sense.

Syldras · January 13

I honestly don't get how such a clear situation leads to a debate. This vampire seems to be a kin of Lamae, says the loves and honors Lamae, so tending a shrine to Molag Bal is simply a lore mistake.

Of course we can assume she's lying, completely confused, has no clue about Lamaes stance towards Molag Bal (despite loving her and being her vampiric offspring probably...), but instead of having to draw all kinds of completely unprobable conclusions to somehow make sense of a contradicting situation there would be a much easier solution: Change it to a shrine of Lamae.

Inari Telvanni · January 13

Syldras wrote: »

I honestly don't get how such a clear situation leads to a debate. This vampire seems to be a kin of Lamae, says the loves and honors Lamae, so tending a shrine to Molag Bal is simply a lore mistake.

Of course we can assume she's lying, completely confused, has no clue about Lamaes stance towards Molag Bal (despite loving her and being her vampiric offspring probably...), but instead of having to draw all kinds of completely unprobable conclusions to somehow make sense of a contradicting situation there would be a much easier solution: Change it to a shrine of Lamae.

She even points out she is bloodkin to Lamae and carries her unique strain of vampirism.

Jaimeh · January 13

Thanks for bringing this up OP, I have done the original vampire quest many times, and if something is made perfectly clear in the dialogue it's that Lamae Bal hates Molg Bal for the curse of Vampirism (and Arkay for forsaking her), so it's very odd the upcoming dialogue mentions that the new shrine is 'out of love and respect to the Blood Matron', it doesn't make sense and it's directly antithetical to existing lore. I don't know if the loremaster is in the forums, I couldn't find their username, but it's something that should be looked at @ZOS_Kevin.

Syldras · January 13

Inari Telvanni wrote: »

She even points out she is bloodkin to Lamae and carries her unique strain of vampirism.

Then it's even clearer (I'm personally not on PTS right now, I only know the screenshots I've seen).

Fischblut · January 13

The lore also says that Lamae hates Molag Bal, regardless of the fact that vampires are intrinsically bound to Coldharbour in every possible way. It specifies that all of Lamae's actions, and by extension the vampires that she spawns, are based on spiting Bal.

If she really hates Molag Bal and what he did to her, spawning more of his kin seems very illogical action to me...

It's exactly what he would want, to spread his corruption to more unwilling (or some willing) habitants of Nirn - and Lamae does this with passion. I'm not even sure he hoped for such outcome, leaving her for dead with just a drop of his blood on her body... But if he indeed planned this cruel transformation for her, it went exactly according to his evil plan.

And Lamae actually hates Arkay (he chose not to save/clean her) - spawning more vampires to bring sorrow to other Arkay's followers can be logical from her point of view.

As for the wording on that new quest NPC, having shrine dedicated to Lamae Bal (instead of shrine to Molag Bal) would be weird... Lamae is not daedric prince. Not all vampires exist just from her bites, Molag Bal still remains the main source and "inventor" of vampires. Upon "death" all souls of vampires would be claimed by Molag Bal anyway if I understand correctly?
It's like replacing shrine to Hircine with shrine to some random werewolf who bitten someone; this can be done, but why?

I don't know if it would ever be considered, but I wish there was "darker" variants of getting vampirism for our characters. My characters never had any relations of Lamae Bal, and always forced to drag through her quest to get their powers. Evil roleplay characters are not currently considered to exist...
Imagine if we select alternative quest to get vampirism, and are greeted by some uncanny sight and interesting dialogue options:

There are player characters who acknowledge the source of their power/curse:

My characters are some of them. Whenever I see someone with this Molag Bal polymorph and if time permits, I equip Xivkyn polymorph and my characters offer the weapon to their creator. I can't find my daylight screenshots as they are more old, and this dark screenshot is simply very recent:

I have only two vampires, and both of these characters were saved by vampirism many years ago. One would be deleted and remade if he didn't become vampire, other character would not even be created if there was no vampirism in ESO.

Completing vampire quest while wearing Molag Bal polymorph was truly unique visual roleplay:

It would be his turn to say "My beautiful abomination, how you shine in the dark!..":

CoolBlast3 · January 13

As for the wording on that new quest NPC, having shrine dedicated to Lamae Bal (instead of shrine to Molag Bal) would be weird... Lamae is not daedric prince. Not all vampires exist just from her bites, Molag Bal still remains the main source and "inventor" of vampires. Upon "death" all souls of vampires would be claimed by Molag Bal anyway if I understand correctly?
It's like replacing shrine to Hircine with shrine to some random werewolf who bitten someone; this can be done, but why?

You don't need to be a full blown god to have a shrine lol, even on the Aedric Side plenty of minor Saints have Shrines and veneration alongside the Divines. Lamae is a full blown cult leader with control over vampirism (modification/creation of her own strain that works differently to others), she is also a significant historical figure. And in TES even just historical figures get Shrines (look at The Sage, who has monuments throughout High Rock)

Souls of the cursed going instantly to Bal upon Death is also up to debate in-world, such as this line of lore "Abbot Crassius Viria says, "Sage Svari's statement that Hircine 'claims' the souls of lycanthropes is poetic but misleading. It is the mortals themselves who decide the destinations of their souls by the choices they make during life. " from this Lore Archive Which yes, is about lycanthropes- but the principal is the same.

But even if it was a universal truth that they go to Bal, that still doesn't stop a Lamae cultist from maintaining a shrine to specifically her. Tamriel is a living, breathing world- not a sum of constant blacks and whites.

At the end of the day
- Lamae cultist maintains Shrine out of love and respect to Lamae
- A Lamae cultist would know Lamae's opinions on Molag Bal
- Hence, it is nonsensical for it to be a Shrine to Molag Bal (unless you want to do complicated mental gymnastics, when it could just be a Lamae shrine in the first place)

To read more about Vampirism and Lamae Bal I recommend:
- https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampire
- https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cult_of_Lamae_Bal
- https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lamae_Bal

Gabriel_H · January 13

Inari Telvanni wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vampiric power comes from Molag. Whether or not Lamae wants to oppose Molag, the power is rooted in him and his realm.

Have you played the vampire quest in ESO?

I've played every quest in ESO, what's your point? Because mine is the lore states that vampiric power comes from Molag Bal, and is rooted in him and his realm.

Does it sound like the stroy-telling is good? Not really. That doesn't change that piece of lore though.

The lore also says that Lamae hates Molag Bal, regardless of the fact that vampires are intrinsically bound to Coldharbour in every possible way. It specifies that all of Lamae's actions, and by extension the vampires that she spawns, are based on spiting Bal. You're not really saying anything.

It doesn't matter if she hates Molag - he is the source of her, and every other vampires, power. To keep that power requires a connection to Molag. Manifesting Daedric power in Nirn requires the worship of a Daedra.

No Molag worship. No power.

The issue is in the presentation of the story-telling, but lore-wise it makes perfect sense, and also a necessity, to have a shrine to Molag.

CoolBlast3 · January 13

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Inari Telvanni wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vampiric power comes from Molag. Whether or not Lamae wants to oppose Molag, the power is rooted in him and his realm.

Have you played the vampire quest in ESO?

I've played every quest in ESO, what's your point? Because mine is the lore states that vampiric power comes from Molag Bal, and is rooted in him and his realm.

Does it sound like the stroy-telling is good? Not really. That doesn't change that piece of lore though.

The lore also says that Lamae hates Molag Bal, regardless of the fact that vampires are intrinsically bound to Coldharbour in every possible way. It specifies that all of Lamae's actions, and by extension the vampires that she spawns, are based on spiting Bal. You're not really saying anything.

It doesn't matter if she hates Molag - he is the source of her, and every other vampires, power. To keep that power requires a connection to Molag. Manifesting Daedric power in Nirn requires the worship of a Daedra.

No Molag worship. No power.

The issue is in the presentation of the story-telling, but lore-wise it makes perfect sense, and also a necessity, to have a shrine to Molag.

That is just not how Vampirism (or magic in general) works in TES.
You've vampires that worship Sanguine (Hollowfang) and those who venerate Clavicus Vile (Cyrodillic, granted these dual wield Bal as well) and they're just fine.
Power /=/ Worship is also not a universal constant. Arcanists gain their power through Apocrypha/Mora but they needn't worship either to continue having it. The vampires of the Orchard in Coldharbour -despise- Bal and even help you against him if you so chose, in the final confrontation that renders all his plans null. And yet, they're still vampires with power regardless.

I don't blame you for having this view of lore, but it isn't an objective truth nor should it be spread like one.

Syldras · January 13

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Manifesting Daedric power in Nirn requires the worship of a Daedra.
No Molag worship. No power.

That's not correct. One example are Arcanists, another one is how conjuration works.