Stamicka wrote: »

The performance in Vengeance this time is pretty bad. I freeze, crash, have inputs dropped, and have delayed skills pretty frequently. I can’t really play during prime time.

I had a good time the first day, but at this point the excessive healing is making PvP feel like a slog. Burst needs to be higher in this campaign.

I still appreciate that Cyrodiil doesn’t feel dead. I also like that I don’t have to level any skills, farm sets, or jump through hoops to get into PvP and play. The lack of free damage and overtuned sets is nice too, but unfortunately the lag and the healing ruin the fun quite a bit.

I still think that Vengeance issues are easier to fix than live Cyrodiil’s issues which is basically a lost cause. However, if just adding weapon skill lines was enough to cause lag like this, I’m not quite sure how feasible the fixes are as they would introduce a bit more complexity (which is really needed tbh).

I actually agree with a lot of your points but I will add my 2 cents as well. I didn't really encounter lag on my end (on ps5 btw) since I recently upgraded my internet at home.

--

My feelings on the vengeance campaign were mixed. On one hand I like that it evens the playing field with overall dmg output and stats. On the other hand its kind of a population game at the moment. I kind of wish we had things like meatbag catapults to at least balance out the moments when you are outnumbered. Overall though it was fun getting into large battles without any lag but I think there needs to be something added to make it work better (example: increase in ultimate dmg to make them more of a damaging finisher (otherwise 1v1 are just not a thing) and reducing the cross healing going on (they can do it for abilities that target enemies I think they should do it for heal spells to reduce the over healing. Like 4 players max in campaigns)). Those would probably be my suggestions anyway.

Katahdin wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

PLAYSTATION HERE, so its the first time Vengeance.



You have NO own sets, no skill morphes, I have leveled Subclassing in the past days FOR NOTHING, because i cant use it now. The scribing skills i farmed together in the past, i cant use.
Youre slow, you have no ressources at most of the time, it feels like youre not doing anything most of the time.

Its a pure numbers game, the bigger zergs wins.
Not the better player, not the better strategy.

Every pvp battle has the same scheme wich i take time to describe now;

So you are unhappy because you cant block or heal forever and your underwear and OP skill morphs no longer does all the killing for you and you actually are equal to the opponent and have to use skill and strategy.

https://youtu.be/V1kHrYRlinc

Highwayman wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Let’s put it another way: imagine a boxer who’s trained for 10 years to compete for a title. Then a rookie shows up with no training or skill. Should we blindfold the veteran and tie one arm behind their back to give the newbie a shot, or should the rookie put in the time to build their skills?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11H5LuPhjUQ

Perfect analogy!

I am enjoying the skill-based PVP with little to no server latency issues on my end. It makes me smile with glee when the players who are mad about Vengeance are the ones who literally have a channel/stream or are a part of the "secret club" PVP "veterans" and cannot monetize/show off their skills in Vengeance. Perhaps maybe because "skill" in ESO before Vengeance was literally don the most overpowered skills/sets and/or run in a ball overhealing each other. Big grin on my face as I 1vX and solo-siege for hours in Vengeance knowing that some people claim that its impossible (even claiming that its laggier than Grey Host EL OH EL ).

You don't have to like it. They made 8v8 BGs for ppl who love procs and ballgrouping. Just advocate for Grey Host to stay and remain in that containment server. Vengeance has already shown with evidence to fix server latency issues at large as well as combat bug. Live Cyrodiil will never be as performant as it was in 2018 Summerset when calculations went Server-side, but Vengeance manages to run smooth (on most people's machines who aren't conveniently protesting it) even on Live's server infrastructure. They don't have to protest obvious progress against lag if Lag Host will stay. It should stay, if sustainable. Don't take Grey Host away like 3-Team BGs got taken away. Even if I disagree with GH Lag Advocates I would never wish upon them the heartbreak that was the removal of 3-Team BGs.

Markytous wrote: »

I am enjoying the skill-based PVP with little to no server latency issues on my end. It makes me smile with glee when the players who are mad about Vengeance are the ones who literally have a channel/stream or are a part of the "secret club" PVP "veterans" and cannot monetize/show off their skills in Vengeance. Perhaps maybe because "skill" in ESO before Vengeance was literally don the most overpowered skills/sets and/or run in a ball overhealing each other. Big grin on my face as I 1vX and solo-siege for hours in Vengeance knowing that some people claim that its impossible (even claiming that its laggier than Grey Host EL OH EL ).

You don't have to like it. They made 8v8 BGs for ppl who love procs and ballgrouping. Just advocate for Grey Host to stay and remain in that containment server. Vengeance has already shown with evidence to fix server latency issues at large as well as combat bug. Live Cyrodiil will never be as performant as it was in 2018 Summerset when calculations went Server-side, but Vengeance manages to run smooth (on most people's machines who aren't conveniently protesting it) even on Live's server infrastructure. They don't have to protest obvious progress against lag if Lag Host will stay. It should stay, if sustainable. Don't take Grey Host away like 3-Team BGs got taken away. Even if I disagree with GH Lag Advocates I would never wish upon them the heartbreak that was the removal of 3-Team BGs.

If you're talking about vengeance mode, you're NOT talking about skill-based PvP.

Vengeance mode is no skill trash zerg fest. The only thing that matters is numbers. Virtually zero skill involved. It's just find a zerg and stick with them and win every fight....until meeting a bigger zerg of opponents. Vengeance mode makes the skill gap ceiling and the floor the same thing. All you have to do to win fights, even 1vX is to slot ranged attacks and shields. Vengeance mode is so dumbed down it's laughable when people try to claim it's skill based.

Markytous wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

I am enjoying the skill-based PVP with little to no server latency issues on my end. It makes me smile with glee when the players who are mad about Vengeance are the ones who literally have a channel/stream or are a part of the "secret club" PVP "veterans" and cannot monetize/show off their skills in Vengeance. Perhaps maybe because "skill" in ESO before Vengeance was literally don the most overpowered skills/sets and/or run in a ball overhealing each other. Big grin on my face as I 1vX and solo-siege for hours in Vengeance knowing that some people claim that its impossible (even claiming that its laggier than Grey Host EL OH EL ).

You don't have to like it. They made 8v8 BGs for ppl who love procs and ballgrouping. Just advocate for Grey Host to stay and remain in that containment server. Vengeance has already shown with evidence to fix server latency issues at large as well as combat bug. Live Cyrodiil will never be as performant as it was in 2018 Summerset when calculations went Server-side, but Vengeance manages to run smooth (on most people's machines who aren't conveniently protesting it) even on Live's server infrastructure. They don't have to protest obvious progress against lag if Lag Host will stay. It should stay, if sustainable. Don't take Grey Host away like 3-Team BGs got taken away. Even if I disagree with GH Lag Advocates I would never wish upon them the heartbreak that was the removal of 3-Team BGs.

If you're talking about vengeance mode, you're NOT talking about skill-based PvP.

Vengeance mode is no skill trash zerg fest. The only thing that matters is numbers. Virtually zero skill involved. It's just find a zerg and stick with them and win every fight....until meeting a bigger zerg of opponents. Vengeance mode makes the skill gap cieling and the floor the same thing.

Non-argument. Grey Host PVP has zergs AND ballgroups. You're just self-reporting that you cannot solo in Vengeance as many seasoned players can. If you practice more in ESO PVP and learn the basics (avoiding crutches like Rallying Cry/RoA or balling which all play the game for you) you will definitely perform better solo and in a group in Vengeance. Don't use the argument that Vengeance is just a no-skill zerg fest because Grey Host is zerging and worse. I don't understand what you think a Three-Banners' War Open World PVP Faction war is supposed to be. A series of little duels where both players are running the most overtuned sets and skill lines or an AFK bomber player waiting to remove the advocacy of a multitude of players in a split-second? Get a better narrative and come back to reply to me.

You've made it obvious you're not a "seasoned PvP player". I have more hours into this game than almost anyone and most of it's been PvP. I still run in PvP raid for 2 hours nearly every day and have since 2015. People advocating for vengeance mode are, almost without exception, those that get rolled in normal live Cyrodiil PvP.

You either don't know what you are talking about or are deliberately misrepresenting the facts.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

I am enjoying the skill-based PVP with little to no server latency issues on my end. It makes me smile with glee when the players who are mad about Vengeance are the ones who literally have a channel/stream or are a part of the "secret club" PVP "veterans" and cannot monetize/show off their skills in Vengeance. Perhaps maybe because "skill" in ESO before Vengeance was literally don the most overpowered skills/sets and/or run in a ball overhealing each other. Big grin on my face as I 1vX and solo-siege for hours in Vengeance knowing that some people claim that its impossible (even claiming that its laggier than Grey Host EL OH EL ).

You don't have to like it. They made 8v8 BGs for ppl who love procs and ballgrouping. Just advocate for Grey Host to stay and remain in that containment server. Vengeance has already shown with evidence to fix server latency issues at large as well as combat bug. Live Cyrodiil will never be as performant as it was in 2018 Summerset when calculations went Server-side, but Vengeance manages to run smooth (on most people's machines who aren't conveniently protesting it) even on Live's server infrastructure. They don't have to protest obvious progress against lag if Lag Host will stay. It should stay, if sustainable. Don't take Grey Host away like 3-Team BGs got taken away. Even if I disagree with GH Lag Advocates I would never wish upon them the heartbreak that was the removal of 3-Team BGs.

If you're talking about vengeance mode, you're NOT talking about skill-based PvP.

Vengeance mode is no skill trash zerg fest. The only thing that matters is numbers. Virtually zero skill involved. It's just find a zerg and stick with them and win every fight....until meeting a bigger zerg of opponents. Vengeance mode makes the skill gap cieling and the floor the same thing.

Non-argument. Grey Host PVP has zergs AND ballgroups. You're just self-reporting that you cannot solo in Vengeance as many seasoned players can. If you practice more in ESO PVP and learn the basics (avoiding crutches like Rallying Cry/RoA or balling which all play the game for you) you will definitely perform better solo and in a group in Vengeance. Don't use the argument that Vengeance is just a no-skill zerg fest because Grey Host is zerging and worse. I don't understand what you think a Three-Banners' War Open World PVP Faction war is supposed to be. A series of little duels where both players are running the most overtuned sets and skill lines or an AFK bomber player waiting to remove the advocacy of a multitude of players in a split-second? Get a better narrative and come back to reply to me.

You've made it obvious you're not a "seasoned PvP player". I have more hours into this game than almost anyone and most of it's been PvP. I still run in PvP raid for 2 hours nearly every day and have since 2015. People advocating for vengeance mode are, almost without exception, those that get rolled in normal live Cyrodiil PvP.

You either don't know what you are talking about or are deliberately misrepresenting the facts.

If that were true then you'd be happy about the decaying server performance finally being remedied. Make those in-game hours show, then. You criticize the "zerginess" of Vengeance (when Grey Host is the same in that and worse with ballgroups and cheese) and completely ignore the server performance improvements that have been gathered with both experience and documentation. Let it go. People don't want to get proc'd by you. People don't want to deal with your infinite block tank.

ForumBully wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

I am enjoying the skill-based PVP with little to no server latency issues on my end. It makes me smile with glee when the players who are mad about Vengeance are the ones who literally have a channel/stream or are a part of the "secret club" PVP "veterans" and cannot monetize/show off their skills in Vengeance. Perhaps maybe because "skill" in ESO before Vengeance was literally don the most overpowered skills/sets and/or run in a ball overhealing each other. Big grin on my face as I 1vX and solo-siege for hours in Vengeance knowing that some people claim that its impossible (even claiming that its laggier than Grey Host EL OH EL ).

You don't have to like it. They made 8v8 BGs for ppl who love procs and ballgrouping. Just advocate for Grey Host to stay and remain in that containment server. Vengeance has already shown with evidence to fix server latency issues at large as well as combat bug. Live Cyrodiil will never be as performant as it was in 2018 Summerset when calculations went Server-side, but Vengeance manages to run smooth (on most people's machines who aren't conveniently protesting it) even on Live's server infrastructure. They don't have to protest obvious progress against lag if Lag Host will stay. It should stay, if sustainable. Don't take Grey Host away like 3-Team BGs got taken away. Even if I disagree with GH Lag Advocates I would never wish upon them the heartbreak that was the removal of 3-Team BGs.

If you're talking about vengeance mode, you're NOT talking about skill-based PvP.

Vengeance mode is no skill trash zerg fest. The only thing that matters is numbers. Virtually zero skill involved. It's just find a zerg and stick with them and win every fight....until meeting a bigger zerg of opponents. Vengeance mode makes the skill gap cieling and the floor the same thing.

Non-argument. Grey Host PVP has zergs AND ballgroups. You're just self-reporting that you cannot solo in Vengeance as many seasoned players can. If you practice more in ESO PVP and learn the basics (avoiding crutches like Rallying Cry/RoA or balling which all play the game for you) you will definitely perform better solo and in a group in Vengeance. Don't use the argument that Vengeance is just a no-skill zerg fest because Grey Host is zerging and worse. I don't understand what you think a Three-Banners' War Open World PVP Faction war is supposed to be. A series of little duels where both players are running the most overtuned sets and skill lines or an AFK bomber player waiting to remove the advocacy of a multitude of players in a split-second? Get a better narrative and come back to reply to me.

You've made it obvious you're not a "seasoned PvP player". I have more hours into this game than almost anyone and most of it's been PvP. I still run in PvP raid for 2 hours nearly every day and have since 2015. People advocating for vengeance mode are, almost without exception, those that get rolled in normal live Cyrodiil PvP.

You either don't know what you are talking about or are deliberately misrepresenting the facts.

Rolled by sets. Fixed that for you. There are still skillful ways of playing even with the limitations of Vengeance...there just aren't the sets.

Hilariously, I roll with non-meta sets in all facits of ESO PVP outside of the Vengeance events. The accusations are ridiculous and these players are just projecting out of fear of what they'll do in environments where their "meta builds" (functionally all the same) aren't accessible. They simply want to farm players to feed a fragile ego, completely uncaring of the players they're farming on. These are the same people that gatekeep exploits and use them for weeks before news breaks. Vengeance makes these people unable to escape core combat mechanics.

Markytous wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

I am enjoying the skill-based PVP with little to no server latency issues on my end. It makes me smile with glee when the players who are mad about Vengeance are the ones who literally have a channel/stream or are a part of the "secret club" PVP "veterans" and cannot monetize/show off their skills in Vengeance. Perhaps maybe because "skill" in ESO before Vengeance was literally don the most overpowered skills/sets and/or run in a ball overhealing each other. Big grin on my face as I 1vX and solo-siege for hours in Vengeance knowing that some people claim that its impossible (even claiming that its laggier than Grey Host EL OH EL ).

You don't have to like it. They made 8v8 BGs for ppl who love procs and ballgrouping. Just advocate for Grey Host to stay and remain in that containment server. Vengeance has already shown with evidence to fix server latency issues at large as well as combat bug. Live Cyrodiil will never be as performant as it was in 2018 Summerset when calculations went Server-side, but Vengeance manages to run smooth (on most people's machines who aren't conveniently protesting it) even on Live's server infrastructure. They don't have to protest obvious progress against lag if Lag Host will stay. It should stay, if sustainable. Don't take Grey Host away like 3-Team BGs got taken away. Even if I disagree with GH Lag Advocates I would never wish upon them the heartbreak that was the removal of 3-Team BGs.

If you're talking about vengeance mode, you're NOT talking about skill-based PvP.

Vengeance mode is no skill trash zerg fest. The only thing that matters is numbers. Virtually zero skill involved. It's just find a zerg and stick with them and win every fight....until meeting a bigger zerg of opponents. Vengeance mode makes the skill gap cieling and the floor the same thing.

Non-argument. Grey Host PVP has zergs AND ballgroups. You're just self-reporting that you cannot solo in Vengeance as many seasoned players can. If you practice more in ESO PVP and learn the basics (avoiding crutches like Rallying Cry/RoA or balling which all play the game for you) you will definitely perform better solo and in a group in Vengeance. Don't use the argument that Vengeance is just a no-skill zerg fest because Grey Host is zerging and worse. I don't understand what you think a Three-Banners' War Open World PVP Faction war is supposed to be. A series of little duels where both players are running the most overtuned sets and skill lines or an AFK bomber player waiting to remove the advocacy of a multitude of players in a split-second? Get a better narrative and come back to reply to me.

You've made it obvious you're not a "seasoned PvP player". I have more hours into this game than almost anyone and most of it's been PvP. I still run in PvP raid for 2 hours nearly every day and have since 2015. People advocating for vengeance mode are, almost without exception, those that get rolled in normal live Cyrodiil PvP.

You either don't know what you are talking about or are deliberately misrepresenting the facts.

Rolled by sets. Fixed that for you. There are still skillful ways of playing even with the limitations of Vengeance...there just aren't the sets.

Hilariously, I roll with non-meta sets in all facits of ESO PVP outside of the Vengeance events. The accusations are ridiculous and these players are just projecting out of fear of what they'll do in environments where their "meta builds" (functionally all the same) aren't accessible. They simply want to farm players to feed a fragile ego, completely uncaring of the players they're farming on. These are the same people that gatekeep exploits and use them for weeks before news breaks. Vengeance makes these people unable to escape core combat mechanics.

Very sick of seeing "skill Pvp" being equated with sets that play for you.

fizzybeef wrote: »

I will rather nuke ball groups all night with my 3 man organised friend group, then have nothing to do then mindless zerg v zerg and pvDoor. Nothing else is what Vengeance is.

Lies. All the posts i see on here tell me ball groups cant be countered...... /Sarcasm

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

So, just out of raw curiosity, can anyone tell me the difference between Rush of Agony pulling you into the middle of an ult-dumping ball group, and DK chain pulling you into the middle of a 50-man zerg, lol?

This made me chuckle because of how accurate it is, but when you see so many posts from jubilant large scale players who are glad they're able to zerg down solo individuals using it I'm sure it never crosses their minds to make the comparison. I personally hate rush of agony and want to see it removed or made to respect the rules of CC, but the DK chain in vengeance is genuinely no better. Just like the live version, it is single target direct damage, but for some reason it's undodgeable. Guaranteed death every single time if a group of 4+ players are chasing you and one of them is spamming this skill, because unlike the live server you simply do not have the tools to counter it in vengeance. Not enough mobility tools to outrun it, no immoveable to hard counter it, not enough of anything to do much once you've been pulled a single time into a group of 4+ people. Really just a terrible design.

ForumBully wrote: »

Rolled by sets. Fixed that for you. There are still skillful ways of playing even with the limitations of Vengeance...there just aren't the sets.

So there’s a lot of people saying that Vengeance is skill based and then a lot of people that are saying it’s not skill based at all.

I would define a skill in a game as the degree to which a player’s gameplay choices/actions dictate the outcome of the game. So on one end of the spectrum there’s Chutes and Ladders where all you do is roll a dice. It’s a pure game of chance with no skill involved. On the other end there’s Chess where there’s no probability, just choice. So chess is a completely skill based game. There’s a lot of space in between those games though.

So in ESO PvP it is true that sets decrease the level of skill involved in the game if the power different between those sets is big enough. You can have one player that makes great choices for an entire fight, they roll and block at the right times, they keep themselves healed, etc. If there’s enough of a build difference though (which is very possible in ESO), those choices won’t matter and the more skilled player can lose or just be unable to kill their opponent because of the build differences.

It’s also possible for choice to stop mattering in ESO when healing gets to a certain point though. Think of a ballgroup. You can probably outplay someone in a ballgroup in 10 different ways. The person in the ballgroup could probably afford to not break free and still take no damage. Not many choices matter on either side of the fight cause there’s just no effective tools in the game to deal with a certain level of healing or shielding.

Unfortunately this Vengeance test suffers from a similar healing issue. The tools just aren’t there to deal with the level of healing that’s possible. This makes a lot of gameplay choices not matter because they don’t change the outcome of a fight. You can outplay someone as much as you want, line up your burst as perfectly as you want… it won’t matter once a restoration staff comes into the picture. You’ll either have to walk away due to a stalemate or die to getting outnumbered, your gameplay choices won’t change that much.

So yea live Cyrodiil is a low skill environment because sets among other things decrease the importance of gameplay choices. However, Vengeance is low skill too due to the level of healing decreasing the importance of gameplay choices.

Now on the first day of this test I had more positive things to say. After each successive day though I’m running into more and more restoration staffs. I might as well log off when I see one because just one can completely prevent the deaths of anyone within range of it. I want builds to be more balanced with each other, I want good performance, and I want it to be easy to get into PvP. However, skill is a super important element of any PvP game, so it’s tough to support Vengeance as strongly as I did before in it’s current state.

I only want subclassing and my normal skills. I don’t need sets cause i never use procs before.

And guys, i read so many ppls here talking about skill, i know a few of you, you zerging every evening and chasing 1-2 players with 10-20.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

I am enjoying the skill-based PVP with little to no server latency issues on my end. It makes me smile with glee when the players who are mad about Vengeance are the ones who literally have a channel/stream or are a part of the "secret club" PVP "veterans" and cannot monetize/show off their skills in Vengeance. Perhaps maybe because "skill" in ESO before Vengeance was literally don the most overpowered skills/sets and/or run in a ball overhealing each other. Big grin on my face as I 1vX and solo-siege for hours in Vengeance knowing that some people claim that its impossible (even claiming that its laggier than Grey Host EL OH EL ).

You don't have to like it. They made 8v8 BGs for ppl who love procs and ballgrouping. Just advocate for Grey Host to stay and remain in that containment server. Vengeance has already shown with evidence to fix server latency issues at large as well as combat bug. Live Cyrodiil will never be as performant as it was in 2018 Summerset when calculations went Server-side, but Vengeance manages to run smooth (on most people's machines who aren't conveniently protesting it) even on Live's server infrastructure. They don't have to protest obvious progress against lag if Lag Host will stay. It should stay, if sustainable. Don't take Grey Host away like 3-Team BGs got taken away. Even if I disagree with GH Lag Advocates I would never wish upon them the heartbreak that was the removal of 3-Team BGs.

If you're talking about vengeance mode, you're NOT talking about skill-based PvP.

Vengeance mode is no skill trash zerg fest. The only thing that matters is numbers. Virtually zero skill involved. It's just find a zerg and stick with them and win every fight....until meeting a bigger zerg of opponents. Vengeance mode makes the skill gap ceiling and the floor the same thing. All you have to do to win fights, even 1vX is to slot ranged attacks and shields. Vengeance mode is so dumbed down it's laughable when people try to claim it's skill based.

100% true, people who think Vengeance is SKILL BASED make me laugh lmao

Jaavaa wrote: »

And guys, i read so many ppls here talking about skill, i know a few of you, you zerging every evening and chasing 1-2 players with 10-20.

Thats exactly why these people in here love Vengeance, because they can finally kill people who are better, have better builds and a better setup with low effort, just chasing in a zerg. Nothing else.
The whole it takes more „skill talk in vengeance“ talk is just delusion at finest.