amiiegee wrote: »

When will be vengeance PVE be a thing, so i can get all trifectas with no experience and no min maxed gear?

Do you in all honesty believe it's brought upon you few people enjoying current state of PvP by salty PvE peeps craving for PvE Cyro out of spite or something?

amiiegee wrote: »

Abelon wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Abelon wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Eisengreifer wrote: »

Honestly, as a most time PVEer, I haven't had so much fun in Cyro in years.

Thats what we mean. No offense to you, but pvp´ers are punished so pve ´ers who own 90% of the game anyway are pleased.
Feels wrong.

No. The reality is that 90% of the actual PvP players stopped playing PvP years ago, because of the mess that it is. Because of how little attention ZoS gives it. Because of lag. Because of proc sets. Because of a million other things that have been discussed on the forums a million times over. You can't act like "you" represent all the PvPers. You especially can't act that way when the forums are literally flooded with threads of PvPers being unhappy with PvP and demanding changes. PvP in the current state might be all fine and great for you... It's not all fine and great for all the PvPers. And when things aren't fine, what do you do? That's right, you fix them. Sometimes the fix isn't obvious, so you have to try things out and test them, and collect feedback.

So good on ZoS for finally doing something for PvP. Good on them for taking a risk and trying something new despite meltdowns on the forums. Good on them for actually testing it and letting people submit feedback, during which they and us, will see what the stance on Vengeance really is.

Either way though. You guys need to understand that having Vengeance doesn't necessarily mean you can't have normal modes either. Right now is a test week and an exception. But later we could have both. Ask for both, so that you can have your old fun and that other people can have their new fun. Don't try to bury a mode with potential purely out of spite or some weird "old way is better" or the even worse "pvers are ruining mah game!" It's a huge MMO. There's something for everyone.

And youre representing the „90% who quitted“? And where are you getting this data from?

Just because of you feel like that?

Pvp ers have literally two zones for themself and i seen enough demands to make even them pve.

Yes it is valid to complain this being made worse for us. You need to accept other opinions too, same as i have to accept yours.

Did you even read past the first sentence before angrily replying? Where did I ever say my opinion is the right one or that you have to accept it? I said your opinion isn't the only one. That is fact. Neither is mine, but I never claimed otherwise. I said forums have been flooded with posts of people unhappy with pvp. That is fact. These Vengeance tests are ZoS' attempt at some sort of a solution. That is fact. ZoS is testing it and collecting feedback. I said provide your feedback, that's a good thing, I didn't say "your opinion is wrong and you shouldn't say anything," I said don't claim that you represent the entire PvP playerbase when even the forums clearly demonstrate otherwise.

I also literally said you should have your old campaigns too. I believe there is place for both those and Vengeance. It's you who is not accepting anything, who is trying to shut down every single idea and compromise just so things stay the "old" way, everybody else be damned. Otherwise maybe you'd bother to reply to everything else that was written and not put words in my mouth.

You also claimed 90% of the pvpers stopped playing wich is just a hot take.

On the rest i agree with you mostly.

Also im sorry if i was rude, didnt mean to.
As i said for me this killed my favorite game now (for 8 days i know its not permanently xD), since other pvp options then cyrodiil are not aviable, due low population.

Got it. Yeah it was an exaggeration. I don't mean to imply that 90% quit in those precise numbers. Just "a lot of people" quit. Let's say too many for my taste, including people I used to play with, guildies, etc. The community is not a monolith, some of them can no longer play PvP in this state at all. Some enjoy it. Some are neutral. The first group has been very vocal and the player numbers in pvp have dropped, at least enough for ZoS to notice... So they need to do something.

But once again and it goes for everyone. Submit feedback. Do the surveys. Be constructive and give ZoS something to work with. Compromises will be necessary, but I hope that we can get a solution that doesn't alienate anyone. It's partially up to ZoS, but if we don't give them anything how are they supposed to make something decent out of this?

Mayrael wrote: »

Is there any PvE group that would take a level 15 character for endgame Trial or Hard Mode runs? Why impose rules and restrictions on PvP players that don’t apply to PvE? Why undermine the time and effort PvP players invest in crafting their gear, builds, and character progression?

Again, I don’t think that they have to go as far as Vengeance. But should there be an optional one piece item anyone can equip that disables all their gear and gives them viable PvP stats? I say yes. Again builds can still be allowed although there needs to be serious set balancing, but I want to make it easier for people to get into PvP.

I believe in making the barrier to entry as low as possible while keeping the skill ceiling as high as possible. High barriers to entry decrease participation which is a major problem with live Cyrodiil. It gets very few regular new players.

Mayrael wrote: »

PvP is also endgame - you’re up against the smartest, trickiest, and most adaptable opponent out there: another human. To take them on, you’ve got to be ready. Why don’t people demand Trials be open from level 1, 5, or 10? Because they get it — you need gear, skills, knowledge, and practice to tackle them. But for some reason, new players think they should be able to challenge someone who’s sunk 10,000 hours into the game and somehow erase all the time and effort that person put into their character. Why?

Nope I think skill should be rewarded and I always have. Again, I want people to get their feet in the door. In a true skill based environment, if a player is as good as they think they are and they have 10,000 hours in the game, they should have absolutely no problem beating a brand new player even though they are on equal footing.

It’s actually live Cyrodiil that allows newer players to challenge veterans by outbuilding them, it’s not as bad in Vengeance. I remember when One Tamriel first dropped and I saw many good players lose to people they shouldn’t have lost to just because they got procced down by tremorscale viper or velidreth viper. If you didn’t have procs you were at a pretty bad disadvantage even if you were a veteran. Losing to some of those early One Tamriel builds as a veteran was much less of a skill issue than losing to a new player on the same class in Vengeance.

Anyway, I use One Tamriel as an example because that’s when I really started to see the first early glimpses of what live Cyrodiil now is. Now there’s 100 different ways to get a cheap win against a veteran and the issue is much much worse.

If you don’t want new players to be able to challenge more experienced and skilled players, then you wouldn’t be supporting live Cyrodiil where build choices matter more than anything and less skilled players win fights pretty frequently.

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

Perhaps a happy medium would be making vengeance campaign always available but also have GH and others so both sides can be happy

Or maybe people like the OP can take a breath and realise it is for a week to test stuff live.

And if they have issues they could always post them in the feedback thread where Zos has asked for this.

Stamicka wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Is there any PvE group that would take a level 15 character for endgame Trial or Hard Mode runs? Why impose rules and restrictions on PvP players that don’t apply to PvE? Why undermine the time and effort PvP players invest in crafting their gear, builds, and character progression?

Again, I don’t think that they have to go as far as Vengeance. But should there be an optional one piece item anyone can equip that disables all their gear and gives them viable PvP stats? I say yes. Again builds can still be allowed although there needs to be serious set balancing, but I want to make it easier for people to get into PvP.

I believe in making the barrier to entry as low as possible while keeping the skill ceiling as high as possible. High barriers to entry decrease participation which is a major problem with live Cyrodiil. It gets very few regular new players.

Mayrael wrote: »

PvP is also endgame - you’re up against the smartest, trickiest, and most adaptable opponent out there: another human. To take them on, you’ve got to be ready. Why don’t people demand Trials be open from level 1, 5, or 10? Because they get it — you need gear, skills, knowledge, and practice to tackle them. But for some reason, new players think they should be able to challenge someone who’s sunk 10,000 hours into the game and somehow erase all the time and effort that person put into their character. Why?

Nope I think skill should be rewarded and I always have. Again, I want people to get their feet in the door. In a true skill based environment, if a player is as good as they think they are and they have 10,000 hours in the game, they should have absolutely no problem beating a brand new player even though they are on equal footing.

It’s actually live Cyrodiil that allows newer players to challenge veterans by outbuilding them, it’s not as bad in Vengeance. I remember when One Tamriel first dropped and I saw many good players lose to people they shouldn’t have lost to just because they got procced down by tremorscale viper or velidreth viper. If you didn’t have procs you were at a pretty bad disadvantage even if you were a veteran. Losing to some of those early One Tamriel builds as a veteran was much less of a skill issue than losing to a new player on the same class in Vengeance.

Anyway, I use One Tamriel as an example because that’s when I really started to see the first early glimpses of what live Cyrodiil now is. Now there’s 100 different ways to get a cheap win against a veteran and the issue is much much worse.

If you don’t want new players to be able to challenged more experience and skilled players, then you wouldn’t be supporting live Cyrodiil where build choices matter more than anything and the less skilled player wins all the time.

Please take my apologies but I don’t agree with you. Relying on anecdotal evidence as a general rule doesn’t hold up. Sure, I’ve occasionally come across impressive new players, but those are rare exceptions, as I mentioned. The campaign’s name fits perfectly—it’s a great setup for new players to take vengeance on experienced ones.

I get that a veteran’s experience should carry weight, but you’re overlooking the countless hours spent theory-crafting, testing builds, and burning through millions of gold just to find a slight edge. Are you saying all that effort should be tossed aside just because some new players, who never cared for PvP before, demand it?

Let’s put it another way: imagine a boxer who’s trained for 10 years to compete for a title. Then a rookie shows up with no training or skill. Should we blindfold the veteran and tie one arm behind their back to give the newbie a shot, or should the rookie put in the time to build their skills?

Mayrael wrote: »

Please take my apologies but I don’t agree with you. Relying on anecdotal evidence as a general rule doesn’t hold up. Sure, I’ve occasionally come across impressive new players, but those are rare exceptions, as I mentioned. The campaign’s name fits perfectly—it’s a great setup for new players to take vengeance on experienced ones.

I get that a veteran’s experience should carry weight, but you’re overlooking the countless hours spent theory-crafting, testing builds, and burning through millions of gold just to find a slight edge. Are you saying all that effort should be tossed aside just because some new players, who never cared for PvP before, demand it?

Why is a veteran needing a slight edge against others? To answer your question, yes, I’m very against build advantages because it undermines skill. You shouldn’t need a slight edge if you really deserve to win a fight.

Mayrael wrote: »

Let’s put it another way: imagine a boxer who’s trained for 10 years to compete for a title. Then a rookie shows up with no training or skill. Should we blindfold the veteran and tie one arm behind their back to give the newbie a shot, or should the rookie put in the time to build their skills?

I don’t think that the veteran should be blindfolded with one arm behind their back which is why I hate live Cyrodiil. When they removed ultimate animation canceling, that was a blindfold for veterans, when they introduced procs that was a blindfold for veterans who didn’t use them, and the list of blindfolds goes on and on.

What you’re not getting is that in its current state, live Cyrodiil has handicapped veterans in a massive way when compared to earlier years of the game.

I am strongly against the approach of nerfing skill expression to even the playing field, but I do support an even playing field itself.

I’ve used this example here before, but Valorant is a great example of a highly accessible game with a very high skill ceiling. The skill ceiling is high enough for the game to be an esport title. It’s absolutely possible and even necessary to have both accessibility (even playing field without too many barriers) and high skill ceilings. Both the veterans and the new players benefit from that approach.

Stamicka wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Please take my apologies but I don’t agree with you. Relying on anecdotal evidence as a general rule doesn’t hold up. Sure, I’ve occasionally come across impressive new players, but those are rare exceptions, as I mentioned. The campaign’s name fits perfectly—it’s a great setup for new players to take vengeance on experienced ones.

I get that a veteran’s experience should carry weight, but you’re overlooking the countless hours spent theory-crafting, testing builds, and burning through millions of gold just to find a slight edge. Are you saying all that effort should be tossed aside just because some new players, who never cared for PvP before, demand it?

Why is a veteran needing a slight edge against others? To answer your question, yes, I’m very against build advantages because it undermines skill. You shouldn’t need a slight edge if you really deserve to win a fight.

Mayrael wrote: »

Let’s put it another way: imagine a boxer who’s trained for 10 years to compete for a title. Then a rookie shows up with no training or skill. Should we blindfold the veteran and tie one arm behind their back to give the newbie a shot, or should the rookie put in the time to build their skills?

I don’t think that the veteran should be blindfolded with one arm behind their back which is why I hate live Cyrodiil. When they removed ultimate animation canceling, that was a blindfold for veterans, when they introduced procs that was a blindfold for veterans who didn’t use them, and the list of blindfolds goes on and on.

What you’re not getting is that in its current state, live Cyrodiil has handicapped veterans in a massive way when compared to earlier years of the game.

I am strongly against the approach of nerfing skill expression to even the playing field, but I do support an even playing field itself.

I’ve used this example here before, but Valorant is a great example of a highly accessible game with a very high skill ceiling. The skill ceiling is high enough for the game to be an esport title. It’s absolutely possible and even necessary to have both accessibility (even playing field without too many barriers) and high skill ceilings. Both the veterans and the new players benefit from that approach.

This game might not be for you if you’re looking for perfectly balanced setups like in esports. It’s not just about the skill needed to play that determines if a game can be an esport—it’s the starting conditions. ESO was never designed for that, and it’s not meant to be, because of its build diversity.

Why do vets get an edge? It’s not that we need it—it’s that we can have it because this is an MMORPG, not Quake or Unreal Tournament. We all started playing ESO knowing PvP would work this way. If we wanted different starting conditions, we wouldn’t be here. Coming in now and trying to change a core aspect of the game feels pretty unfair. Why stop at PvP? Why not overhaul PvE too and see what happens?

Titanium wrote: »

To be honest, I wanted to hate this when I first saw it on PS5/NA. I never follow patch notes, why should I? The game should be self contained, all information in one place. But I digress.

At first, the skills were surprising to me, but after slotting them, I realized that this was going to be different. Then the armor was all greyed out, which meant that the armor does not matter. PVP used to be "endgame", as we all farmed the latest gear to test it in PVP. Theory crafting was fun. On console, we did not have (and still do not have) the luxury of addons that will help us in battle, no test server to test gear sets, etc.

After 10 minutes of play, I started to enjoy this.

• No more unkillable tanks
• No more 1-shot-modded-controller builds
• No more coldfire siege weapons, or any dot-based siege weapons (fire, oil, meat, scattershot), makes defending keeps a little more challenging
• No pull builds, so no more constant dark convergence + rush of agony
• No more charm builds. This honestly made my day.
• No more bombs
• No more cookies to fast travel to keeps to defend
• No more 1 player putting down 6 sieges, that's 2 players putting down 12 sieges to fake a large group flagging a keep
• No more super fast players darting around, line of sighting, etc.
• No more detect pots. But also no more perma-invis too.

Sure, this is purely a numbers game in the end. You can strategically win 10v15 or 8v15, but that has always been the case with "better players".

This is fairly new to us still, I am not sure how long it will take us to tire of it. On the surface, it looks like:

• It is an easier pick up game for casuals and new players; they do not need to farm gear, figure out enchants, impen, etc
• It is easier to balance the game for developers. Changes made to PVE will not affect PVP and vice versa. Cyrodiil is base game and has always been "free content", so I understand that they don't want to commit too much resources on it.

Overall, the more I think about it, like it or not, the more I think this will stay. Some of us have been excellent at PVP as solo players, but that's going to change, and again, the good players will find a way to evolve and stay ahead of server.

There’s always a way, but is there a reason? For me, PvP and build diversity have always been what kept me hooked on this game. If Vengeance ends up being the only PvP campaign, that’ll be the end of ESO for me, even after over a decade of playing.

Mayrael wrote: »

This is what I'm ok with as long as in Vengeance all you could earn would be Alliance Points and skill lines.

I agree there should be rewards in the standard campaign that are not available in a hypothetical full time vengeance campaign.

For example and not limited to: I'd like that emp still exists to teach the fundamentals, but the "Former Emperor" title should not be rewarded. This would also keep title farmers out of the campaign.

For way, way too long players have equated a set they farmed with skill.

Mayrael wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Please take my apologies but I don’t agree with you. Relying on anecdotal evidence as a general rule doesn’t hold up. Sure, I’ve occasionally come across impressive new players, but those are rare exceptions, as I mentioned. The campaign’s name fits perfectly—it’s a great setup for new players to take vengeance on experienced ones.

I get that a veteran’s experience should carry weight, but you’re overlooking the countless hours spent theory-crafting, testing builds, and burning through millions of gold just to find a slight edge. Are you saying all that effort should be tossed aside just because some new players, who never cared for PvP before, demand it?

Why is a veteran needing a slight edge against others? To answer your question, yes, I’m very against build advantages because it undermines skill. You shouldn’t need a slight edge if you really deserve to win a fight.

Mayrael wrote: »

Let’s put it another way: imagine a boxer who’s trained for 10 years to compete for a title. Then a rookie shows up with no training or skill. Should we blindfold the veteran and tie one arm behind their back to give the newbie a shot, or should the rookie put in the time to build their skills?

I don’t think that the veteran should be blindfolded with one arm behind their back which is why I hate live Cyrodiil. When they removed ultimate animation canceling, that was a blindfold for veterans, when they introduced procs that was a blindfold for veterans who didn’t use them, and the list of blindfolds goes on and on.

What you’re not getting is that in its current state, live Cyrodiil has handicapped veterans in a massive way when compared to earlier years of the game.

I am strongly against the approach of nerfing skill expression to even the playing field, but I do support an even playing field itself.

I’ve used this example here before, but Valorant is a great example of a highly accessible game with a very high skill ceiling. The skill ceiling is high enough for the game to be an esport title. It’s absolutely possible and even necessary to have both accessibility (even playing field without too many barriers) and high skill ceilings. Both the veterans and the new players benefit from that approach.

This game might not be for you if you’re looking for perfectly balanced setups like in esports. It’s not just about the skill needed to play that determines if a game can be an esport—it’s the starting conditions. ESO was never designed for that, and it’s not meant to be, because of its build diversity.

Why do vets get an edge? It’s not that we need it—it’s that we can have it because this is an MMORPG, not Quake or Unreal Tournament. We all started playing ESO knowing PvP would work this way. If we wanted different starting conditions, we wouldn’t be here. Coming in now and trying to change a core aspect of the game feels pretty unfair. Why stop at PvP? Why not overhaul PvE too and see what happens?

Well you can have your edge and the tiny community who chooses to play on a dead Greyhost.

But who is this "edge" really over? All the dedicated PvPers in GH have all their CP points slotted, all farmed their favorite mythic and Rush of Agony set years ago, all go to their favorite streamer to get the meta builds. There is no edge against them. The edge is only against precisely the players it is not needed over: new players and people not PvP oriented. This edge has made Live Cyrodill so unappealing that the vast majority of people who have once played and even liked it have left long ago.

Rotate the campaigns? VEN one month, GH another. Gives us a chance to take a break to do other things...

licenturion wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Eisengreifer wrote: »

Honestly, as a most time PVEer, I haven't had so much fun in Cyro in years.

Thats what we mean. No offense to you, but pvp´ers are punished so pve ´ers who own 90% of the game anyway are pleased.
Feels wrong.

Let me guess... you are one of those people who is going to be angry too and feels 'punished' if they put an optional Vengeance campaign next to the original campaigns because how dare PvE players even have a slight feeling of fun dipping their toes in PvP.

IMO veng in its current form should be the entry or u50 into pvp. It's a great format where everyone is close enough so you don't feel like oyu just get pooped on and gives you breathing room to learn the ropes of pvp.

I don't think the hardcore members of pvp will play this so they need a PVP in it's current-ish form (needs balanced like crazy).. but the current live pvp makes it impossible for someone to come into pvp who never has been and be able to live and experience things. If you're new to pvp and come into it during prime time you will 100% have a terrible experience and feel so intimidated that the odds of you coming back are low.

This is a fact that can not be dismissed if we want to see the pvp commmunity continue to grow as the older generation of players phase out.

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

It’s a test again…to get raw data they could never get on the PTS. I assume they want data off console too now, hence it being on there now too. It’s not the end-all-be-all new way of PVP. It’s for a week. I think everyone will survive.

it sucks i won't be able to pvp for what? 9 days.

also... this is like the 3rd or 4th time they've done this. nothing ever changes.

nerf crosshealing to 2 per morph, get rid of all pulls from pvp, and call it a day. its clear they dont understand their own game at this point, sadly.

fufu_from_ps4 wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Why would i encourage anyone to have a terrible and boring experience?
I meaned it when i wrote i have the worst pvp experience in years.

you'll be ridiculed for stating the obvious. the amount of gaslighting that goes on around here is directly in proportion to the amount of overzealous forum policing... which is why they never get honest feedback. and the little bit that slips thru just gets ignored as condescending.

No worries i didnt expect much here anyway.
Still want to give a voice for these who dont enjoy it, even if these are not as populated here, there are people agreeing so 🤷‍♂️