Vengeance - THE WORST PVP EVER

amiiegee

Iriidius wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

To be fair, the player numbers say everything. Saturday EVening, Primetime PC EU not even poplocked. The number of players diminished. The first 3 days were poplock and 100+ queues even outside of primetime

Of cause the numbers go down. Vengeance is stale, boring and bad pvp overall.

On PS EU the bars went from 2 2 2 on the first day to 0 0 0 at prime time, on a saturday.
Nobody wants to play this nonsense.

According to your earlier post PS EU never had 2 2 2 bar(equal to 3 3 3 in PC view and 9 9 9 Grey Host bars) so how can it drop from population numbers it never had to zero.
Did you maybe fake population numbers or time using screenshots from offhours in these earlier posts and forget or did you fake population numbers in this post?

PS EU had 2 2 2 bars at first day of vengeance and now today had 0 0 0 bars during prime time.

I dont know whats wrong about this in your opinion.
Next time you get a time stamp no problem.

Otherwise maybe @Major_Soulless who also plays on the server, can confirm, if he was online.

YandereGirlfriend

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

So, just out of raw curiosity, can anyone tell me the difference between Rush of Agony pulling you into the middle of an ult-dumping ball group, and DK chain pulling you into the middle of a 50-man zerg, lol?

An astute question, to be sure!

SeaGtGruff

fizzybeef wrote: »

gronoxvx wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

I will rather nuke ball groups all night with my 3 man organised friend group, then have nothing to do then mindless zerg v zerg and pvDoor. Nothing else is what Vengeance is.

Lies. All the posts i see on here tell me ball groups cant be countered...... /Sarcasm

Yes and because of these kind of people who are not able to get out of a pull, we have vengeance rn

I thought we're having the Vengeance tests to help see how well Cyrodiil runs with an increased population cap when stripped down to a bare-bones setup (only class skills), then gradually add more things (weapon skills, alliance skills) to see at what point performance starts degrading, so ZOS can better understand how to go about improving Cyrodiil performance?

Alchimiste1

Iriidius wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

I am enjoying the skill-based PVP with little to no server latency issues on my end. It makes me smile with glee when the players who are mad about Vengeance are the ones who literally have a channel/stream or are a part of the "secret club" PVP "veterans" and cannot monetize/show off their skills in Vengeance. Perhaps maybe because "skill" in ESO before Vengeance was literally don the most overpowered skills/sets and/or run in a ball overhealing each other. Big grin on my face as I 1vX and solo-siege for hours in Vengeance knowing that some people claim that its impossible (even claiming that its laggier than Grey Host EL OH EL ).

You don't have to like it. They made 8v8 BGs for ppl who love procs and ballgrouping. Just advocate for Grey Host to stay and remain in that containment server. Vengeance has already shown with evidence to fix server latency issues at large as well as combat bug. Live Cyrodiil will never be as performant as it was in 2018 Summerset when calculations went Server-side, but Vengeance manages to run smooth (on most people's machines who aren't conveniently protesting it) even on Live's server infrastructure. They don't have to protest obvious progress against lag if Lag Host will stay. It should stay, if sustainable. Don't take Grey Host away like 3-Team BGs got taken away. Even if I disagree with GH Lag Advocates I would never wish upon them the heartbreak that was the removal of 3-Team BGs.

A prime example of the toxic casual right here

Markytous even wants to let Carrybuild PvPers keep Grey Host to play like they want but totally toxic that he wants to play not in their campaign after their ruleset himselg but rather in Vengeance and total casual when he already PvPd in 2018.

What the heck did you say

Stridig

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

gronoxvx wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

I will rather nuke ball groups all night with my 3 man organised friend group, then have nothing to do then mindless zerg v zerg and pvDoor. Nothing else is what Vengeance is.

Lies. All the posts i see on here tell me ball groups cant be countered...... /Sarcasm

Yes and because of these kind of people who are not able to get out of a pull, we have vengeance rn

I thought we're having the Vengeance tests to help see how well Cyrodiil runs with an increased population cap when stripped down to a bare-bones setup (only class skills), then gradually add more things (weapon skills, alliance skills) to see at what point performance starts degrading, so ZOS can better understand how to go about improving Cyrodiil performance?

That's what we all thought until the other day when they posted the "survey" results. Now it's clear the testing is about whether people had fun or not and if they'd like to play vengeance again in the future. Not a single data point about performance related findings was shared.

SeaGtGruff

gc0018 wrote: »

It is worst for majority, but it is the best for nightblade. Quick level a nightblade and try it out. No matter solo or group battle, you are only one can brust-kill and never get killed.

OMG, as someone who mains a Nightblade on PCEU and gets killed a lot in PvP, I think this is so funny! No doubt someone will say that I'm playing my Nightblade "wrong," or am too "unskilled" to stay alive, but in my experience even the most skilled PvP players get killed from time to time. I've watched quite a few ESO streamers who are awesome at PvP (even if most of them are playing for the enemy), and not a one of them has ever been able to keep from getting killed eventually.

SeaGtGruff

Stridig wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

gronoxvx wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

I will rather nuke ball groups all night with my 3 man organised friend group, then have nothing to do then mindless zerg v zerg and pvDoor. Nothing else is what Vengeance is.

Lies. All the posts i see on here tell me ball groups cant be countered...... /Sarcasm

Yes and because of these kind of people who are not able to get out of a pull, we have vengeance rn

I thought we're having the Vengeance tests to help see how well Cyrodiil runs with an increased population cap when stripped down to a bare-bones setup (only class skills), then gradually add more things (weapon skills, alliance skills) to see at what point performance starts degrading, so ZOS can better understand how to go about improving Cyrodiil performance?

That's what we all thought until the other day when they posted the "survey" results. Now it's clear the testing is about whether people had fun or not and if they'd like to play vengeance again in the future. Not a single data point about performance related findings was shared.

I think those data points about performance you're talking about were presented during an ESOLive stream not too long after the first Vengeance test was held. The purpose of the recent post about the survey results was to give us the results of the survey that people answered.

Desiato

The first couple of years of Cyrodiil were not very solo friendly for most players. The kind of player that now identifies as a 1vX player didn't really play on main campaigns much. They preferred the 7 day campaigns because they didn't have as many groups and were generally less competitive. Haderus in 2014 comes to mind. They were also less laggy and it was easier to find small scale fights without getting zerged down as much. There were still large groups though because Trial guilds used those servers as buff campaigns -- back then Cyrodiil buffs were applied in PVE zones too.

The main campaigns were full of groups of all sizes and they dictated play. It was difficult for a faction to do anything without an organized group leading the charge. Not just large groups, but small and medium groups. There were small groups of gankers along every lane between objectives.

Groups coordinated with each other for map control. PUGs and solo players would support their efforts in various ways. There were always players who would stay at keeps as scouts so they could make callouts if a keep was attacked. There were also scouts who would go deep into enemy territory to let everyone know if a keep seemed empty. Sometimes they would use siege to stealthfully take out forward camps and prep walls to 51% without flagging until a group arrived. There was a lot of enthusiasm for map play.

Taking keeps wasn't easy. zergs of random players could wipe against NPCs. It took an organized effort. Stealth and diversions were key to try to get it flagged before defenders could arrive.

Offensive ticks from taking objectives without PVP were tiny. It was better that way when the source of most AP was from the death of players. If players wanted AP, they had to find fights against other players -- and win.

All of this made the game more fun for the kind of player who actually enjoys open world pvp gameplay and doesn't just play to be spoonfed rewards constantly.

I'm not viewing the past through rose colored glasses. There were a lot of problems, but the biggest was crippling server lag. Especially when deposing an emp at their last keep. It was far worse through ESO 1.5 than it is today because the pop cap was so much higher. The game was also less stable and there were constant problems with loading screens.

This changed over the years as ZOS tried to make Cyrodiil more accessible, even though campaigns were always poplocked. They made NPCs much weaker and introduced large oticks which completely changed the dynamics -- for the negative. Gameplay devolved to what it is on non-vengeance campaign. Boring PVE just for oticks slowly emerged as the main form of gameplay. They kept trying and failing to get their casual pve audience into a game mode they would never truly enjoy.

My point is that if you took the players of today and put them in that environment, they would play it the same way players are playing vengeance. Massive faction stacks going keep to keep. On the other hand, I think if you took the PVP playerbase we had from 2014 through 2016 and put them in Vengeance, we'd see the same kind of coordinated map play we saw then.

I think players who only started playing in Cyrodiil after, especially those who came after 2019, can't even imagine the kind of PVP community we used to have in ESO and how much enthusiasm there was for AvAvA. These Vengeance bashing threads are full of such players. Players who actually like what Cyrodiil has become through the 2020s! The game you guys enjoy is what caused most from my generation of Cyrodiil to quit in disgust. You are all fans of a drastically broken game and I'm shocked you want it back so badly.

Vengeance does have a lot of flaws. I think the TTK needs to be lower for players who aren't actively defending themselves. There needs much broader build customization with tradeoffs like we used to have -- unlike the builds of today that are tanky, high damage, high mobility with big heals and unlimited sustain. There also needs to be better group synergies so encourage grouping because organized groups are essential for this kind of game.

I also hope map play is looked at to encourage more active keep fights and less undefended keep and resource PVE. I mean, how often in Normal Cyrodiil do we see a group go keep to keep flipping undefended resources, followed by another group who just flip them back? That is so broken. The game should be encouraging fights between players.

So I hope ZOS looks at the big picture and builds up Vengeance with the players in mind who *would* play a performant Cyrodiil and not the ones who inexplicably have stuck around through the insanely bad lag and gameplay balance -- along with a ridiculously low pop cap featuring an empty, boring map -- of normal Cyrodiil today.

MidniteOwl1913

I can't wait to get back to normal Blackreach. I am mostly pve and what I enjoy in pvp are deleves, dailies and the golden.

Vengence can't end soon enough.

React

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

gronoxvx wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

I will rather nuke ball groups all night with my 3 man organised friend group, then have nothing to do then mindless zerg v zerg and pvDoor. Nothing else is what Vengeance is.

Lies. All the posts i see on here tell me ball groups cant be countered...... /Sarcasm

Yes and because of these kind of people who are not able to get out of a pull, we have vengeance rn

I thought we're having the Vengeance tests to help see how well Cyrodiil runs with an increased population cap when stripped down to a bare-bones setup (only class skills), then gradually add more things (weapon skills, alliance skills) to see at what point performance starts degrading, so ZOS can better understand how to go about improving Cyrodiil performance?

That's what we all thought until the other day when they posted the "survey" results. Now it's clear the testing is about whether people had fun or not and if they'd like to play vengeance again in the future. Not a single data point about performance related findings was shared.

I think those data points about performance you're talking about were presented during an ESOLive stream not too long after the first Vengeance test was held. The purpose of the recent post about the survey results was to give us the results of the survey that people answered.

What is hilarious about the performance data points is that every time they have shared them, they have blurred out the actual population numbers. For some reason, the current actual population caps of cyrodiil and the population caps during vengeance are some obscure value we aren't allowed to know.

Absolutely bizarre.

Madarc

"Vengeance - THE WORST PVP EVER"

Really....?

Well, ...the title of this thread makes an absolutely wrong statement and implies that it's about something completely different than what this event was actually intended for.

It would have been better called:
Vengeance - the biggest misunderstanding of the PvP community.

But regardless of the misunderstanding...
my impression and after talking to many players: - THE BEST PvP EVER.

Radiate77

It’s the same people bumping this thread over and over. 💀

On my server the overwhelming majority of comments about Vengeance were, “this is fun.” Sure the population died down again throughout the week, but I’m not sure why that would surprise anyone.

When has ESO ever had a dedicated PvP community? Launch? Imperial City update? Almost 10 years ago, are we gonna pretend there’s this mythic robust community of Cyrodiil goers?

Is Vengeance perfect? No. Time-To-Kill (TTK) is too high, I’m sure the damage could be brought up, Subclassing could be added, skills could be more similar to Live, but who ever said this was what we’re getting? There’s room to grow, so constructive feedback is huge, idk what this thread was supposed to be, but it sure doesn’t seem like it’s helping anything.

That said, idk how the other classes felt, but Templar was great. Backlash was an actual skill again, Sun Shield was leagues ahead of live… Jabs did meaningful damage as not everyone and their mother are running around with both Minor and Major Evasion. It was like playing a 2015 Templar again, you could actually hit a Jab without 3/4th’s of your health disappearing.

fizzybeef

Radiate77 wrote: »

It’s the same people bumping this thread over and over. 💀

Could say the same for the defenders of Vengeance 😂

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

Whoever has more players wins.
Nobody respects 1v1. You will get zerged down.
Limited escape options. Slow move speed. No Race Against Time.
Dismounting enemy players requires too much damage.
Vigor and Resto HoT too strong. They heal for 2x more than they should.
Faction bandwagoners. Players log on the alt of whichever faction has the most players.
Class balance is way off. NB is still the best by a large margin.
Cloak is overpowered in 1v1 and small scale. Not many options to reveal stealth.
Nearly unplayable during prime time keep sieges. Server cannot handle it.

TheMajority

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Whoever has more players wins.
Nobody respects 1v1. You will get zerged down.
Limited escape options. Slow move speed. No Race Against Time.
Dismounting enemy players requires too much damage.
Vigor and Resto HoT too strong. They heal for 2x more than they should.
Faction bandwagoners. Players log on the alt of whichever faction has the most players.
Class balance is way off. NB is still the best by a large margin.
Cloak is overpowered in 1v1 and small scale. Not many options to reveal stealth.
Nearly unplayable during prime time keep sieges. Server cannot handle it.

duel if you want 1 v1 that don't exist on public pvp space and don't try it because it isn't how PVP in cyro work

spartaxoxo

I did not experience performance issues (well other than a couple skills not questing but they didn't want to catch even I jumped into any battles) when the large blue group I was in waded into this battle. There were tons of people on screen but not issues with lag for me

barney2525

On the upside, if you decided to start a new character, you won't be allowed to do the Tutorial and get your extra Mount speed and qualify to do anything in Cyradil.


So we got that going for us.

Is it over yet?

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

TheMajority wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Whoever has more players wins.
Nobody respects 1v1. You will get zerged down.
Limited escape options. Slow move speed. No Race Against Time.
Dismounting enemy players requires too much damage.
Vigor and Resto HoT too strong. They heal for 2x more than they should.
Faction bandwagoners. Players log on the alt of whichever faction has the most players.
Class balance is way off. NB is still the best by a large margin.
Cloak is overpowered in 1v1 and small scale. Not many options to reveal stealth.
Nearly unplayable during prime time keep sieges. Server cannot handle it.

duel if you want 1 v1 that don't exist on public pvp space

This tells me you don't PvP much. There are absolutely 1v1's in Cyrodiil and IC.

Joy_Division

Desiato wrote: »

My point is that if you took the players of today and put them in that environment, they would play it the same way players are playing vengeance. Massive faction stacks going keep to keep. On the other hand, I think if you took the PVP playerbase we had from 2014 through 2016 and put them in Vengeance, we'd see the same kind of coordinated map play we saw then.

I think players who only started playing in Cyrodiil after, especially those who came after 2019, can't even imagine the kind of PVP community we used to have in ESO and how much enthusiasm there was for AvAvA. These Vengeance bashing threads are full of such players. Players who actually like what Cyrodiil has become through the 2020s! The game you guys enjoy is what caused most from my generation of Cyrodiil to quit in disgust. You are all fans of a drastically broken game and I'm shocked you want it back so badly.

Vengeance does have a lot of flaws. I think the TTK needs to be lower for players who aren't actively defending themselves. There needs much broader build customization with tradeoffs like we used to have -- unlike the builds of today that are tanky, high damage, high mobility with big heals and unlimited sustain. There also needs to be better group synergies so encourage grouping because organized groups are essential for this kind of game.

I also hope map play is looked at to encourage more active keep fights and less undefended keep and resource PVE. I mean, how often in Normal Cyrodiil do we see a group go keep to keep flipping undefended resources, followed by another group who just flip them back? That is so broken. The game should be encouraging fights between players.

So I hope ZOS looks at the big picture and builds up Vengeance with the players in mind who *would* play a performant Cyrodiil and not the ones who inexplicably have stuck around through the insanely bad lag and gameplay balance -- along with a ridiculously low pop cap featuring an empty, boring map -- of normal Cyrodiil today.

I agree with much of what you say.

Though, I can't I say blame those who started post 2019 for defending Live and not liking Vengeance. For those players, the same population, powercreep, proc set driven, and indifference to AvAvA is the only Cyrodiil they ever known and since they are still playing, they no doubt like it. The old vets left because of what PvP had become, whereas they embraced it. Most of all, the builds they have played with can do everything and it is no doubt frustrating and jarring to be much weaker than you are accustomed to. Especially in a environment like Vengeance where a DK chain pretty much means death in a solo situation, whereas if they had their Live builds they would have a decent chance of surviving (or at least they can believe that).

I think ZOS needs to be more aggressive in it's testing. While the weapons and alliance options have added more variety, they still have not done anything to try and balance the abilities from Vengeance I and they failed to do anything regarding the most common critique of Vengeance: the bigger Zerg wins. If ZOS is so hung on up AoE caps, they could at least try what they did on Live: cap of 6 with diminishing damage for the others in the AoE. I also agree with what you say about customization with tradeoffs.

TheMajority

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

TheMajority wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Whoever has more players wins.
Nobody respects 1v1. You will get zerged down.
Limited escape options. Slow move speed. No Race Against Time.
Dismounting enemy players requires too much damage.
Vigor and Resto HoT too strong. They heal for 2x more than they should.
Faction bandwagoners. Players log on the alt of whichever faction has the most players.
Class balance is way off. NB is still the best by a large margin.
Cloak is overpowered in 1v1 and small scale. Not many options to reveal stealth.
Nearly unplayable during prime time keep sieges. Server cannot handle it.

duel if you want 1 v1 that don't exist on public pvp space

This tells me you don't PvP much. There are absolutely 1v1's in Cyrodiil and IC.

You'd be wrong I got into PVP and PVP a lot I don't pvp expecting to be alone or to have private 1v1 anyone in cyro or IC can jump in any time and I manage my expectations according, if I want 1v1 I do duel. there is no true 1v1 in public pvp zone anyone can jump in so don't expect people to 'respect it'

ForumBully

I think there are some critiques about Vengeance that are shared between people who are optimistic about the future of Vengeance iterations and those who aren't.

Damage/Healing is out of balance.
Capping AoE damage isn't just a mistake in this iteration, it's a bad idea overall.
Keep defense is seriously disadvantaged in large scale combat, either due to low siege damage or unbalanced healing.

As much as I enjoyed the large battles, the combat in general isn't as engaging as it needs to be, yet. I hope everyone is filling out feedback on the official feedback thread with more depth than I've seen in regular posts.

Radiate77

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Whoever has more players wins.

This just isn’t true at all. A few days ago a group of maybe 20 AD pushed back a group of 50 DC at Faregyl and our Zone Chat went crazy. Not only that, I’ve been winning outnumbered fights all week, you just need to build for it.

Radiate77

Funny to see “PvE Player” used as a derogatory term for someone in PvP still in 2025…

Perhaps some jealousy? I mean after all they know how to use DoTs and AoEs to apply damage, and with everyone having 70k health you need consistent damage to overpower the people you’re fighting, not a wish and a crit. 😂

amiiegee

Tonights sunday Vengeance bars of that really populated test + Time stamp top right since i was accused before.

Darrett

Radiate77 wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Whoever has more players wins.

This just isn’t true at all. A few days ago a group of maybe 20 AD pushed back a group of 50 DC at Faregyl and our Zone Chat went crazy. Not only that, I’ve been winning outnumbered fights all week, you just need to build for it.

Yep, and organization still goes a long way. This entire test I’m not sure if DC has even run groups, it’s just a bunch of solo players, so they tend to get farmed by organized groups even when they (rarely) have numbers.

colossalvoids

Desiato wrote: »

I think players who only started playing in Cyrodiil after, especially those who came after 2019, can't even imagine the kind of PVP community we used to have in ESO and how much enthusiasm there was for AvAvA. These Vengeance bashing threads are full of such players. Players who actually like what Cyrodiil has become through the 2020s! The game you guys enjoy is what caused most from my generation of Cyrodiil to quit in disgust. You are all fans of a drastically broken game and I'm shocked you want it back so badly.

...

I also hope map play is looked at to encourage more active keep fights and less undefended keep and resource PVE. I mean, how often in Normal Cyrodiil do we see a group go keep to keep flipping undefended resources, followed by another group who just flip them back? That is so broken. The game should be encouraging fights between players.

So I hope ZOS looks at the big picture and builds up Vengeance with the players in mind who *would* play a performant Cyrodiil and not the ones who inexplicably have stuck around through the insanely bad lag and gameplay balance -- along with a ridiculously low pop cap featuring an empty, boring map -- of normal Cyrodiil today.

This right there. Maybe some of us just griping for the past, but the culture and attitude was different and that's sorely missed.

Dock01

Jaavaa wrote: »

Dock01 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

I don't believe those numbers for a second. What I hear and see is the opposite of these numbers. Sometimes surveys can be pretty selectively read or interpreted and this is clearly one of those cases.

here it is, numbers dont lie lol. i do enjoy vengeance its super fun and fair like a true pvp game should be. so everytime i see people trying to inflate the number of people who hated it, id always give it a huge pass. Even back then, in zone chat, everyone was having fun. There are only 1 or two people who complain and try to argue about their gears being useless lol it was nice

Tell me please, what you mean with „fair“? What is not fair in the Standard Campaign?

pfft was looking for this, too many people talking to each other, but yes, it's fair. No more 'secret builds' that somehow one-shot tanks, Vengeance fixes that. It's no longer pay-to-win; you don’t need to own every DLC just to guess which gear can delete people, all you need is real SKILLS. Funny how the people who hate this change are the same ones who want it to stay pay-to-win, then gaslight everyone into thinking it never was, just so they can keep stomping lobbies or people who didn't buy all of the dungeons to get those "gears" now its all skills less gears thats why its fair It's inevitable you can't stop this, and im finally cheering ZOS LOLOL

Don’t get me wrong, I bought all the DLCs. But the RNG was lame so grinding sucks but at least i have "access" to it compare to not at all , and I hated winning just because I had the right gear. Same goes for losing, it never felt fair either way but Vengance ... for the first time ever it felt real , it was the solution

Another bonus is how much easier it is to catch cheaters now that everything’s in a more controlled environment. I hope the next ban wave hits PvP, cause that would be perfect. And don’t try to tell me ESO can’t be cheated. Even big PvP games get breached all the time. The only difference is they have solid auto-detect systems and those people get banned regularly. ESO doesn’t. Server-side can still be manipulated through packets,no game’s immune to cheats lol.

Pepegrillos

Kikazaru

sunday prime time pvp



not fun having to deal with the 150 ep super zerg and having no means of fighting back

TheMajority

Kikazaru wrote: »

sunday prime time pvp



not fun having to deal with the 150 ep super zerg and having no means of fighting back

what do you mean? there's tons of AD and DC just play and use tactics lol playing on EP and noticing a lot don't understand siege placement or how to fight on other teams it's not a numbers issue it's a problem of learning to play a lot of newbies are there so if they had more time they propbably would get more skilled but yeah EP numbers is not the issue