To preface my response, I have been playing ESO on and off since 2013 and have never participated in the forums until this post. I specifically created my forum account to protest the subclassing feature as I am diametrically opposed to its implementation. I have not tested the system on PTS because my greatest objections are not performance related or whether it feels "fun". I'm aware a few other replies have glossed over objections similar to mine, but I still wish to voice my take about the game's past and what a change like this would mean to me. Or players like me.

When ESO was first released, there was a huge divide in its reception. My belief is that most players surmised 1 of the 3 following opinions:

1. ESO was a watered down, soulless version of an Elder Scrolls game. These players hung around for a few hours, realized it wasn't similar enough to Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim, logged off, and never touched the game again. We'll call them Purists. Most of my friends and acquaintances that play games are in this category.
2. ESO made the compromises it had to in order to become an MMO. Despite its differences to previous ES titles, the adaptations of lore, class, combat, crafting system, etc were sufficient enough to get over the mental hump that Purists could not.
3. ESO was immediately fun, fulfilling, and fine the way it was. I imagine these players didn't play previous ES titles and/or had less expectations, only cared about the lore, or were more receptive to MMOs than the average Elder Scrolls Enjoyer™.

I was personally in Category 2. I loved the lore of Elder Scrolls so much that I was willing to give ESO a real chance, even though my first few weeks of gameplay made it quite difficult. The combat felt floaty and weightless (still an issue), the character models and animations were awkward/alien (still an issue), the gear looked weird, and worst of all... the class system felt bad. I can't say I know what the motivations were behind the class system, but what can be said is it has very little in common with previous ES titles.

This is a major problem for someone like me who is playing the game to enjoy the lore, because the character I create exists in that world and is supposed to be a product of it. That is to say, in previous ES games, my characters class and identity was a part of that game's lore. There was a formula to it, albeit a pretty barebones one. This changed subtly throughout the previous games, but for the most part the fundamentals were the same. Your class was just the stats you started with and a passive or 24 hour cooldown ability. Besides that, your character was very much a blank canvas and as an Elder Scrolls player I felt entitled to have that experience again going into ESO.

However, as we know that is not the case in ESO. We have very niche classes and skill lines. The themes are baked into the abilities themselves in both aesthetic and function. Whether I like it or not, my class automatically tells a backstory about my character that I may not necessarily agree with. In addition to this, the abilities are unusually flashy and color-coded. Playing a Dragonknight? What's your color? It's red/orange. Are you an Arcanist? Green. Sorcerer? Blue/Purple. This system makes me feel closer to a Power Ranger than an ES protagonist with a complex history. For me, this was a massive compromise in 2013 and still is to this day. That being said, I have learned to live with it because I still love the lore and want to continue having experiences in the ESO universe.

To get to my objection about Subclassing, it feels like we're taking a system that should have never existed in the first place and doubling down on its blasphemy. It draws ESO further away from the Elder Scrolls IP. It is the opposite of paying homage to its roots. If I have to play my character within the confines of a class, then so be it - but don't go mixing classes that have no relation to each other in lore or aesthetic. How does a Nightblade/Dragonknight/Templar combo work? Am I supposed to think of some hilarious, insane backstory to justify it? Or should I suck it up and not care about any of that?

I imagine the knee-jerk rebuttal to that prior point is "play a pure class." Sure, I could do that, but what if I want to experience endgame content, trials, or arenas that have had their power curves adjusted to these new class combinations? What if I can't get into that content because my DPS is not high enough or I don't bring enough utility? And what if seeing other players running around with these ridiculous combos destroys the ambience of the game? I can only imagine how insane large groups will look when everyone is shooting rainbows. I won't go into further detail here so I can get back to my main point:

Subclassing is defacing the game. It's watering down the soul. Despite the current class system's flaws, at least I can construct a cohesive narrative for my character. I can give them a place in the Elder Scrolls world without having to lean too hard into the Power Ranger problem.

If this does get implemented, it will be the end of the road for my ESO career and I suspect for many others. The game has already demanded too many compromises over the years to keep finding good in it. This would be the straw that broke the camel's back; or more poignantly, the anvil that crushed it.

I love this idea from to make some specific subclasses. However I think due to time they wont be able to implement it until U46. But it could be potentially a further development with some bonuses to the existing subclassing lines giving you some lore friendly direction and bonuses.

Comparing the Templar Nova ultimate and Mage's Guild Meteor ultimate:

• Base game Meteor ultimate costs only 200, has 11,000 direct damage and a 2 second stun on impact, and 3,000 damage per second for 11 seconds
• Base game Nova ultimate costs 250, has no direct damage or stun on impact, and 3,100 damage per second for 9 seconds. . . But a synergy for 7,600 direct damage . . . that I cannot use myself

The Dawn's Wrath ultimate Nova is this huge meteor that you conjure from the sky for 250 ultimate, and then it makes a huge BOOM on impact . . . that deals no direct damage.

Don't get me wrong, it looks awesome, but for costing 250 ultimate, having a synergy I cannot use myself, having a giant impact in the animation that deals no immediate damage, and being objectively weaker than Meteor in almost every way, it just feels very anti-climatic and disappointing for a solo player. Please buff or adjust the Templar Nova ultimate ability to be useful for solo players too.

baconaura wrote: »

If i'm being honest, PTS cycles for this really needs to be extended. There are alot of unresolved issues with combat changes have not been addressed, and it feels like this is getting rammed through ignoring any player feedback like u35. There was promises of additional combat changes that would have been released last week, but there was nothing, and even less this week. If anything there should be a Q&A session to collect faster feedback.

Why are you trying to force these changes to go out when it obviously isnt ready? This requires more fine tuning and incorporating feedback. If your launch schedule is so inflexible, what is even the point of a PTS if this feedback isnt even taken seriously? You might as well just launch stuff every quarter without PTS, because its not like our opinions matter, and we might as well get the benefit of doing dungeons/trials blind and have the challenge of getting world's first on an even footing.

Like there needs to be more communication, and between the way these changes are being forced through, and the performance issues that are still not resolved, it's looking like its time to take a break again like u35.

Yep. I feel like an idiot NPC for bothering to take my time to test their game for them, give them feedback along with many many others saying the same thing, and then have those concerns completely ignored without them even engaging on the forums or in their release notes. Multiclassing as they've designed is garbage, and they don't even seem to know why.

This isn't directly about subclassing but with all of the new means of stacking Crit Damage, the never-used Sturdy Horn ultimate could really use a buff.

20% Crit Res is great but 10 seconds of duration is atrocious given the huge cost of the ultimate (250).

Either drastically slash the price of the ultimate or drastically increase the duration of the Crit Res (ideally to something like 30 seconds so that it matches the other effects). Best of all, this change would have zero impact on PvE.

Tested it, it’s fun for about 5 seconds. Massive player drop off coming if this goes live.

Darkness734 wrote: »

im gonna say this again. just in case any dev actually reads these but werewolves need buffs to keep up with sublclassing

I really feel like werewolves need an extra werewolf bar for the werewolf skills. I think vampire is different as you can mix the skills in but on werewolf it's different and with subclassing and scribe skills all available it's too hard to narrow down to the 5 non werewolf skills.

When I tried it I ended up with 2 werewolf skills and just didn't really end up using werewolf so decided to drop it. I'm going to use the armory so I can keep my werewolf guy but change to a different armory slot for subclassing without werewolf.

I am really eager to see what will happen U46, please do not change anything and do not add any balance change last minute. Instead of a so-so patch, a destructive patch may be way more interesting. I never have a chance to witness such a mess coming in a famous MMO before.

zos is #14 in sales on the steam charts and the games not on sale. Perhaps its some Oblivion remastered hype but i also think it could be subclassing hype. Content pass is #575. Despite all the doom and gloom i think most players will love subclassing, if they last long enough in-game to get to it. Zos should make it available from day 1.

https://steamcharts.com/app/306130#All

April has always been a pop peak (compared to the rest of the year)

the game has been stabilizing around 10k average players since last year but 2023, 2022, 2021 & 2020 were much better for ESO (the covid period was beneficial for all online games and ESO pop doubled during this period)

The announcements about subclassing, the community event and the scribing system integrated into the base game do not particularly attract or depart players. It seems that it has neither a positive nor a negative effect.

(at least regarding steam)

sans-culottes wrote: »

Agreed. It’s highly unlikely that new players with no real ESO experience are saying, “Finally, I can make a Warden, Necromancer, Dragonknight hybrid. Sign me up.”

Counterpoint: highly likely they'll say "Wow cool you can use whatever you want like in Skyrim, sign me up!"

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Agreed. It’s highly unlikely that new players with no real ESO experience are saying, “Finally, I can make a Warden, Necromancer, Dragonknight hybrid. Sign me up.”

Counterpoint: highly likely they'll say "Wow cool you can use whatever you want like in Skyrim, sign me up!"

Winner winner chicken dinner.

I remember coming to ESO from the mainline games and bouncing hard off of non-canon classes like Dragonknight and Templar. Those classes seemed to be from other RPG franchises and not actually The Elder Scrolls. So new players being better able to cobble together, say, a Frost Mage, from Warden, Necro, and weapon abilities likely goes down easier than being locked into a random Warden class that otherwise does not exist in the lore. It is more of a Skyrim approach, as you say.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Agreed. It’s highly unlikely that new players with no real ESO experience are saying, “Finally, I can make a Warden, Necromancer, Dragonknight hybrid. Sign me up.”

Counterpoint: highly likely they'll say "Wow cool you can use whatever you want like in Skyrim, sign me up!"

Countercounterpoint: you need to be level 50 to be able to play with Subclassing in the first place.

So "wow, I have to live with my character being only a fire mage until I get them up to level 50, and then I can finally drop some of these skills and passives I've come to rely on so I can grind another whole set of levels up at a slower rate!"

This is what I’ve been doing as I’ve been getting a new character ready for Subclassing, a sorcerer only using the Lightning skill line along with Destruction Staff. I have to say it’s been quite interesting and different, but fun.