I'd like to chime in and say that with Subclassing, my character's identity is still going to be "Werewolf". I've never considered my Templar Khajiit Werewolf to be a Templar, and I don't even consider them to be a Khajiit! Race and Class are thematically irrelevant while transformed as a Werewolf, so I pick the Race and Class that offers good passives in Werewolf form.

With Subclassing, I'm going to remove some of the less useful Templar skill lines and add in some of the more useful skill lines from other Classes, as it pertains to my Werewolf's build. I've got a few ideas for PvE and PvP builds that remain in Werewolf form 100% of the time.

I am upset that Subclassing is going to make Werewolf even more obsolete in both PvE and PvP, and it's going to be a struggle to try and compete. I'm still sticking with it, though. I refuse to change my character's identity by not playing Werewolf to be competitive, so I'll use Subclassing to help me with my Werewolf builds in any way that I can.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I'd like to chime in and say that with Subclassing, my character's identity is still going to be "Werewolf". I've never considered my Templar Khajiit Werewolf to be a Templar, and I don't even consider them to be a Khajiit! Race and Class are thematically irrelevant while transformed as a Werewolf, so I pick the Race and Class that offers good passives in Werewolf form.

With Subclassing, I'm going to remove some of the less useful Templar skill lines and add in some of the more useful skill lines from other Classes, as it pertains to my Werewolf's build. I've got a few ideas for PvE and PvP builds that remain in Werewolf form 100% of the time.

I am upset that Subclassing is going to make Werewolf even more obsolete in both PvE and PvP, and it's going to be a struggle to try and compete. I'm still sticking with it, though. I refuse to change my character's identity (by not playing Werewolf to be competitive) so I'll use Subclassing to help me in any way that I can.

Yes, this is my thinking as well. It probably will make the characters I do want to keep pure class *worse*, but they are already suboptimal due to wearing themed sets (e.g. my reachman in Briarheart) so it's not like I am too broken up over it.

If I want to be good? I will build a good character and use them to do the truly hard stuff.

If I want to play a character identity I vibe with? I will do that and roll with the punches - as I have always done.

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Classes are "professions". In the real world it would be your job.

Classes are nothing like jobs. I have never heard a truck driver say "sorry, I can't come over and help you build your shed, I took Truck Driver class instead of Construction Engineer."

Classes are very similar to jobs. We choose a path then train the skills needed to function in our chosen role. Those that haven't received the education and training can't just step in and fulfill any job's objectives.

Correct, and a fantastic reason why ESO makes the character level up the skill line after picking it up - the character has to go through the trials and tribulations of learning a new set of skills.

Furthermore, since they already had the muscle memory/knowledge of being truly skilled at their main class, learning new skills takes more effort (even if it does not take more time), and this is a good reason why the amount of Skill Points to unlock a subclassed skill is doubled.

A Truck Driver could make a career transition to Construction Engineer while still retaining their truck driving skills. In fact, they could even merge the skills they have earned to become something new, perhaps a dumptruck or heavy equipment qualified operator.

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

A Truck Driver could make a career transition to Construction Engineer while still retaining their truck driving skills. In fact, they could even merge the skills they have earned to become something new, perhaps a dumptruck or heavy equipment qualified operator.

That could work because they are similar professions with similar skill sets. But a truck driver couldn't make a career transition to become a Medical Doctor with just their driving skills. They would need years of training, so not every profession would be readily within their grasp.

The same holds true for Class skills. A tank, for example, wouldn't reasonably be able to become an expert at Arcane knowledge without years of training.

I know someone personally, right now, making the career transition from a medical caregiver to a lawyer; she is in her 30s and just started pre-law school; hadn't finished college before (which is why she has more than a decade of experience as a caregiver). And yet, though it is taking effort, she got straight As in her first semester and 2 of her classes were 2 month accelerated courses that were brutal. Who are you to say she can't become a lawyer because she already has the medical "class"? If she puts in time and effort to "level up the new skill line" as it were, I think it is cool. And she still would be the best among my friend group at counting medications at a glance (seriously, she can look into a prescription bottle and go "17!" because counting medications like that was an important caregiver skill).

Why can't the tank be tanking as an expert in Arcane Knowledge? My main tank uses a staff and is magicka spec.

I mean frankly, even the pure classes levelled up too quickly to be "realistic" for normal humans to master, and what's worse, a 600-year old Altmer mage probably *could* subclass into every class in the game plausibly. That's like 8 human lives!

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

I know someone personally, right now, making the career transition from a medical caregiver to a lawyer; she is in her 30s and just started pre-law school; hadn't finished college before (which is why she has more than a decade of experience as a caregiver). And yet, though it is taking effort, she got straight As in her first semester and 2 of her classes were 2 month accelerated courses that were brutal. Who are you to say she can't become a lawyer because she already has the medical "class"? If she puts in time and effort to "level up the new skill line" as it were, I think it is cool. And she still would be the best among my friend group at counting medications at a glance (seriously, she can look into a prescription bottle and go "17!" because counting medications like that was an important caregiver skill).

Why can't the tank be tanking as an expert in Arcane Knowledge? My main tank uses a staff and is magicka spec.

I mean frankly, even the pure classes levelled up too quickly to be "realistic" for normal humans to master, and what's worse, a 600-year old Altmer mage probably *could* subclass into every class in the game plausibly. That's like 80 human lives!

The point I was making is that some professions take several years of education and training and can't just be walked in to by anyone that hasn't received this training.

Also, using a Staff and being Magicka specced does not make a character proficient at Arcane knowledge like a true Arcanist is. My Arcanist uses Daggers and is Stamina specced but has trained the Arcane skills.

Yes, and ESO makes the character go through the same time that any other character must go through to master the skill line (pure class or not), AND doubles the amount of effort (skill points) the character has to put in. A Nightblade has to put in the same time and twice as much effort to learn Aedric Spear compared to a Templar learning Aedric Spear.

What more do you "want" to satisfy your objection that "certain things take time and effort"? Want it to take *longer* and cost *even more than twice as much effort* for... some reason?

And yeah, but that's exactly my point. If my character wants to summon Void Tendrils like the Void Mage NPC Class can do, why does she also have to learn the Arcane Arts?

Tendrils may be an "Arcanist skill" but they can fit many non-Arcanist identities. That is my whole point. Class identities are not the sum total of potential character identities.

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

I know someone personally, right now, making the career transition from a medical caregiver to a lawyer; she is in her 30s and just started pre-law school; hadn't finished college before (which is why she has more than a decade of experience as a caregiver). And yet, though it is taking effort, she got straight As in her first semester and 2 of her classes were 2 month accelerated courses that were brutal. Who are you to say she can't become a lawyer because she already has the medical "class"? If she puts in time and effort to "level up the new skill line" as it were, I think it is cool. And she still would be the best among my friend group at counting medications at a glance (seriously, she can look into a prescription bottle and go "17!" because counting medications like that was an important caregiver skill).

Why can't the tank be tanking as an expert in Arcane Knowledge? My main tank uses a staff and is magicka spec.

I mean frankly, even the pure classes levelled up too quickly to be "realistic" for normal humans to master, and what's worse, a 600-year old Altmer mage probably *could* subclass into every class in the game plausibly. That's like 80 human lives!

The point I was making is that some professions take several years of education and training and can't just be walked in to by anyone that hasn't received this training.

Also, using a Staff and being Magicka specced does not make a character proficient at Arcane knowledge like a true Arcanist is. My Arcanist uses Daggers and is Stamina specced but has trained the Arcane skills.

Yes, and ESO makes the character go through the same time that any other character must go through to master the skill line (pure class or not), AND doubles the amount of effort (skill points) the character has to put in. A Nightblade has to put in the same time and twice as much effort to learn Aedric Spear compared to a Templar learning Aedric Spear.

What more do you "want" to satisfy your objection that "certain things take time and effort"? Want it to take *longer* and cost *even more than twice as much effort* for... some reason?

And yeah, but that's exactly my point. If my character wants to summon Void Tendrils like the Void Mage NPC Class can do, why does she also have to learn the Arcane Arts?

Tendrils may be an "Arcanist skill" but they can fit many non-Arcanist identities. That is my whole point. Class identities are not the sum total of potential character identities.

I identify with my Characters' classes and it's a huge part of who they are for me. I hate that the skills that were once specific to a chosen class will now be available for any Character to use at will. And I will not turn my Characters into that.

I am sorry you hate that other people can enjoy those skills and use them in all manner of creative and fascinating builds. I can't wait to see what new identities people craft, for my part, and I hope that it soothes your hatred somewhat to see people enjoying things, even if they are things you do not personally enjoy.

I also deeply respect your dedication to theme, as it is also something I highly value, and I hope making it work on a pure class is even more rewarding than it already is now.

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

I am sorry you hate that other people can enjoy those skills.

I also deeply respect your dedication to theme, as it is also something I highly value, and I hope making it work on a pure class is even more rewarding than it already is now.

I don't hate that others can enjoy using new skills. I hate what it is doing to my Characters. And even though it's supposed to be optional my 11 year non pet Sorcerer wasn't given a choice.

What is it doing to your characters?
Did they delete non-pet sorcerer when I wasn't looking? I *have* a non-pet sorc and I like him (and plan to keep him pureclass, though he is a tank).

I mean, Daedric Curse, Conjured Ward, and bound armor aren't as good without pets anymore, but that's three skills out of eighteen. Every other skill in the Sorc trees is either a pet or not too terribly hurt by these changes. You could probably practice swapping them out now for similar skills from different lines (e.g. one of the many damage shields across undaunted, alliance, weapon lines, or the light armor shield for Conjured Ward, if you need delayed burst you could look at blending in some of the scribing skills or Mage's Guild skills with high DoTs like Meteor; bound armor is also replaceable, especially the minor protection effect. Really it depends on what you were using them for). No subclassing required.

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

What is it doing to your characters?
Did they delete non-pet sorcerer when I wasn't looking?

I mean, Daedric Curse, Conjured Ward, and bound armor aren't as good without pets anymore, but that's three skills out of eighteen. Every other skill in the Sorc trees is either a pet or not touched by these changes. You could probably practice swapping them out now for similar skills from different lines (e.g. one of the many damage shields across undaunted, alliance, weapon lines, or the light armor shield for Conjured Ward, if you need delayed burst you could look at blending in some of the scribing skills or Mage's Guild skills with high DoTs like Meteor; bound armor is also replaceable, especially the minor protection effect. Really it depends on what you were using them for). No subclassing required.

I don't know how to explain it any better. But forcing me to either use pets or subclass isn't a choice I should have to make regarding an "optional" feature. And that is all I can say about it.

Can you explain to me how you are forced to either use pets or subclass by this change? I was not aware of this and have a petless sorc tank I was hoping to keep pure...

Right now nothing I am seeing forces a character change but I will alter my tune on subclassing if they really are forcing all sorc lines to have a pet or something.

If the passives don't require a pet I could probably get around having to slot a pet skill in the shock and dark magic lines and just go without. (If they really are doing a pet in each sorc skill line). Still would suck though.

Sorcerer can still play without pets. They're not removing that playstyle from the game. It's just being slightly nerfed because the "Daedric Summoning" skill line is being made more about summoning Daedra — but that's not a requirement by any means.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Class nerfs?

Are class nerfs really what's "forcing you to subclass"?

Last time they nerfed sorc, did you say they are "forcing" you to play another class altogether?

I am aware of these changes and not at all worried about it. The only one doing any "forcing" because of this is you. This is genuinely less of a change than removing Blinding Flashes from Templar, which is s change no one else even remembers.

"Those who do not wish to interact with the pet gameplay can now replace this skill line as a whole."

That really rubbed me the wrong way and this wasn't just a class nerf. It was a major class nerf to accomodate a new feature I do not want to use.

This is how I feel about it and we just need to agree to disagree now.

Yeah hopefully people will actually put in the effort to make builds to join endgame.
Cause atm endgame isn't anything crazy, 40-50 CPM arcs can do 120k dps easily.
Like legit I've seen a guy going from 60-70k to 114k within less than a week with enough mentoring so it's literally just farming the build and practicing on the dummy, there isn't anything too insane that prevents people from endgame they are legit just lazy.
But people that do like 100k on live (which is extremely easy assuming you run proper gear) will jump to 125-130k with the subclass and they would be able to join any trifecta prog including the latest ones.
But at the end of the day the players need to want to play endgame and not come on half assed green random gear and expect to get carried in a trifecta run nobody gonna take those guys.
Sure it will be much much easier to hit said trasholds but again people will need to want to do it.
And with hyper's 130k HA parse HA's can't blame anyone if they don't hit 120k+ which is enough for most if not all content but score pushing

ADarklore wrote: »

It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.

As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".

The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?

Koshka wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.

As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".

The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?

Nothing?
If they can do it now, and they stay the same, they can still do it.

Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.

As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".

The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?

Nothing?
If they can do it now, and they stay the same, they can still do it.

Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.

It will affect any future content and players expectations.
Haven't you noticed that newer content tends to be harder because of power creep?

Daoin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.

As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".

The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?

Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.

@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.

anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.

Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.

Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.

could you elaborate on how the the arcanist has been hit so hard over on PTS ? if its still just a number cap and banner cost im not sure or if theres really anything truly significant other than a dps boost to beam (aboout time they gave it back)

What? Its insanely significant. Its a DPS Loss to facilitate the implementation of sub-classing. Nothing I said was incorrect.

(I play an AOE centric arcanist, well DID until they nerfed the class and never gave magicka the buff it deserves).

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.

As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".

The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?

Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.

@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.

anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.

Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.

Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.

could you elaborate on how the the arcanist has been hit so hard over on PTS ? if its still just a number cap and banner cost im not sure or if theres really anything truly significant other than a dps boost to beam (aboout time they gave it back)

What? Its insanely significant. Its a DPS Loss to facilitate the implementation of sub-classing. Nothing I said was incorrect.

(I play an AOE centric arcanist, well DID until they nerfed the class and never gave magicka the buff it deserves).

so nothing more than whats already been mentioned then ? i thought they had made more changes