So Excited for Subclassing!!

DenverRalphy

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

This isn't a TES single player game. It is ESO and was released with a Class system and has been this way for 11 years now. It should not be pulled apart into something unrecognizable.

I don't think TESO will become unrecognizable just because of subclassing, nor do I think it should stay completely unchanged. If it had only been out for 9 years, would subclassing be bad? 5 years? 1 year? 6 months? "It's been this way since launch" isn't a great argument - after all, Oblivion had potato faces for 20 years - should they have left them in the Remaster?

Single player vs. multi-player is a non-sequitur unless you can connect it back to subclassing; there are class-less MMOs and class-ful single-player games.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Pure Classes should remain as they are and their skill lines should not be weakened to accommodate a playstyle many of us don't even want.

Pure classes should be destroyed because they represented a playstyle foreign to the Elder Scrolls that many of us TES fans don't want.

Classes aren't foreign to The Elder Scrolls games. Skyrim is the only TES game where players didn't have classes.

Purely restrictive classes are absolutely foreign. Did you know a Nightblade in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim can summon daedra? Did you know a summoner could cloak? A holy knight summon a skeleton, or a necromancer use the Blazing Spear flame-damage spell? All classes do (and did) in Oblivion was let certain skills start higher and advance faster; the extra skill point costs for off-class skill lines in ESO is actually quite a good example of following that model.

Yes I'm aware of how the classes worked in the TES games. However those were built for single plalyer purposes. Single Player mechanics do not translate well to multiplayer.

Erickson9610

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I will not subclass on any of my characters.

Okay but classes are being nerfed. The only way to maintain your power is by subclassing. So, you might not have a choice.

You can always choose to not run content with people who require you to subclass.

I'm talking about soloing....world bosses, group dungeons, DLC public dungeons, etc...

Subclassing isn't required for that and it never will be.

Except they are nerfing the pure classes, so in order to have the same power as before (or more), subclassing is not optional. Look what nerfs they have already done on PTS.

Nerfs happen all the time, even way before Subclassing was in the works. Our abilities were nerfed and we got around just fine.

The difference is that players who desire to play their class, as a class to be played (which for many of us is a primary contributing factor in the purchase and continued purchases of the game) are now at a severe disadvantage.

This is a massive attack on players who champion the RPG aspect of the game.

Just because Subclassing gets around the limitations of your Class doesn't mean you're required to Subclass. This game is still an enjoyable Role Playing Game even when you're not playing the meta. Play the role of your Class, and complete content the way you always have.

Pretty much nothing changes for people who don't want to Subclass, unless they're actively trying to scorepush or if they play PvP competitively. If you're chasing the meta, you already forego the roleplay aspect of your playstyle (like using daggers on a mage solely because of the boost to critical chance) so the addition of Subclassing is no different.

Heronisan

RaikaNA wrote: »

Perhaps things have changed since then, but when I was doing vet trials.. people using Okensoul heavy attack meta build were being kicked out of the raid... Okensoul setup does terrible damage, and the logs further prove it. oakensoul ring should be removed from the game.

I dont use oakensoul or 1 bar builds without oakensoul, i play 2 bar meta, but people are still parsing 100k+ on it. Its lower then a good player on 2 bars yes, but calling it terrible damage is wrong.

The point im making is that the problem people have with vet trials and dlc dungeons is not the lack of damage, the damage potential is more then enough allready with those builds.

If you put 3-8 120k 2 bar parsers depending on content (dlc dungeons or trials) on heavy attack builds, they will clapp absolutely every single content in this game easily.

But the average heavy attacker i get in pugs cant, nor will they be able to after subclassing if theres potential for a slight dps increase, because its not the lack of damage ceiling thats the problem.

The damage to do all this is allready available, when oakensoul first came out it was the meta even for end game players, after the cleave nerf they stopped using it, but the damage is still plenty for vet and hardmodes if played by a skilled player. Hyperioxes is soloing vet dlc dungeon hardmodes on 1 bar heavy attack builds for fun. While i get heavy attackers who run ahead of tank and die to the first, then the second trash pull at the start in bal sunnar.

sans-culottes

Ah yes, the famous Elder Scrolls classes—like “Nightblade” or “Warden”—all perfectly aligned with the lore’s rigorous taxonomy of magical schools and martial disciplines. Truly nothing says authentic TES experience like Necromantic skills tethering casters to corpses. Remind me again which book in the Arcane University syllabus covered bear summoning?

If “pure classes” are so foreign to the Elder Scrolls, then it’s curious that what you’re proposing isn’t a return to Elder Scrolls’ flexible skill system, but instead a justification for keeping the current MMO class constraints and weakening their structure just enough to allow a mechanical collage. That’s not liberation. It’s just eating the cake and denying there ever was a recipe.

old_scopie1945

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I will not subclass on any of my characters.

Okay but classes are being nerfed. The only way to maintain your power is by subclassing. So, you might not have a choice.

You can always choose to not run content with people who require you to subclass.

I'm talking about soloing....world bosses, group dungeons, DLC public dungeons, etc...

Subclassing isn't required for that and it never will be.

Except they are nerfing the pure classes, so in order to have the same power as before (or more), subclassing is not optional. Look what nerfs they have already done on PTS.

Nerfs happen all the time, even way before Subclassing was in the works. Our abilities were nerfed and we got around just fine.

The difference is that players who desire to play their class, as a class to be played (which for many of us is a primary contributing factor in the purchase and continued purchases of the game) are now at a severe disadvantage.

This is a massive attack on players who champion the RPG aspect of the game.

Just because Subclassing gets around the limitations of your Class doesn't mean you're required to Subclass. This game is still an enjoyable Role Playing Game even when you're not playing the meta. Play the role of your Class, and complete content the way you always have.

Pretty much nothing changes for people who don't want to Subclass, unless they're actively trying to scorepush or if they play PvP competitively. If you're chasing the meta, you already forego the roleplay aspect of your playstyle (like using daggers on a mage solely because of the boost to critical chance) so the addition of Subclassing is no different.

Apart from the fact that their class (and others) are getting hammered by the nerf sledge hammer. More than a bit of a problem methinks. I suppose it is part of the "I'm alright Jack" syndrome.

Erickson9610

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I will not subclass on any of my characters.

Okay but classes are being nerfed. The only way to maintain your power is by subclassing. So, you might not have a choice.

You can always choose to not run content with people who require you to subclass.

I'm talking about soloing....world bosses, group dungeons, DLC public dungeons, etc...

Subclassing isn't required for that and it never will be.

Except they are nerfing the pure classes, so in order to have the same power as before (or more), subclassing is not optional. Look what nerfs they have already done on PTS.

Nerfs happen all the time, even way before Subclassing was in the works. Our abilities were nerfed and we got around just fine.

The difference is that players who desire to play their class, as a class to be played (which for many of us is a primary contributing factor in the purchase and continued purchases of the game) are now at a severe disadvantage.

This is a massive attack on players who champion the RPG aspect of the game.

Just because Subclassing gets around the limitations of your Class doesn't mean you're required to Subclass. This game is still an enjoyable Role Playing Game even when you're not playing the meta. Play the role of your Class, and complete content the way you always have.

Pretty much nothing changes for people who don't want to Subclass, unless they're actively trying to scorepush or if they play PvP competitively. If you're chasing the meta, you already forego the roleplay aspect of your playstyle (like using daggers on a mage solely because of the boost to critical chance) so the addition of Subclassing is no different.

Apart from the fact that their class (and others) are getting hammered by the nerf sledge hammer. More than a bit of a problem methinks. I suppose it is part of the "I'm alright Jack" syndrome.

Yes, Classes are getting nerfed for a feature that some players refuse to use. Classes have always been nerfed, though.

People just need to substitute in skills from non-Class skill lines or use Scribing if the goal is to adapt to these nerfs without Subclassing. They could use different sets or Champion Points to get back to the point they were at before. Subclassing is not mandatory.

old_scopie1945

sans-culottes wrote: »

Ah yes, the famous Elder Scrolls classes—like “Nightblade” or “Warden”—all perfectly aligned with the lore’s rigorous taxonomy of magical schools and martial disciplines. Truly nothing says authentic TES experience like Necromantic skills tethering casters to corpses. Remind me again which book in the Arcane University syllabus covered bear summoning?

If “pure classes” are so foreign to the Elder Scrolls, then it’s curious that what you’re proposing isn’t a return to Elder Scrolls’ flexible skill system, but instead a justification for keeping the current MMO class constraints and weakening their structure just enough to allow a mechanical collage. That’s not liberation. It’s just eating the cake and denying there ever was a recipe.

Cakes, recipes, I didn't know Gordon Ramsey contributed to the ESO Forums. BTW Gordon, I think your Fish and Chips are rubbish, you get better at our local chippy.

sans-culottes

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Ah yes, the famous Elder Scrolls classes—like “Nightblade” or “Warden”—all perfectly aligned with the lore’s rigorous taxonomy of magical schools and martial disciplines. Truly nothing says authentic TES experience like Necromantic skills tethering casters to corpses. Remind me again which book in the Arcane University syllabus covered bear summoning?

If “pure classes” are so foreign to the Elder Scrolls, then it’s curious that what you’re proposing isn’t a return to Elder Scrolls’ flexible skill system, but instead a justification for keeping the current MMO class constraints and weakening their structure just enough to allow a mechanical collage. That’s not liberation. It’s just eating the cake and denying there ever was a recipe.

Cakes, recipes, I didn't know Gordon Ramsey contributed to the ESO Forums. BTW Gordon, I think your Fish and Chips are rubbish, you get better at our local chippy.

What kind of sandwich are you?

Meridiano

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

It will be a crying shame if this goes live and pure builds are not compensated for being devastated by the nerf hammer.

I don't think pure builds will become unplayable, you should be still able to do normals, and normals are enough for RPing if that's what you want in ESO. Normals and vets have no difference in plot, storytelling, books you can find, etc. If you want high-end equip or achievements, you automatically leave the "RPing players" category, and others begin to expect high-end skills from you. I find this fair, to be honest. Play as you want - in normals, sure.

old_scopie1945

Erickson9610 wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I will not subclass on any of my characters.

Okay but classes are being nerfed. The only way to maintain your power is by subclassing. So, you might not have a choice.

You can always choose to not run content with people who require you to subclass.

I'm talking about soloing....world bosses, group dungeons, DLC public dungeons, etc...

Subclassing isn't required for that and it never will be.

Except they are nerfing the pure classes, so in order to have the same power as before (or more), subclassing is not optional. Look what nerfs they have already done on PTS.

Nerfs happen all the time, even way before Subclassing was in the works. Our abilities were nerfed and we got around just fine.

The difference is that players who desire to play their class, as a class to be played (which for many of us is a primary contributing factor in the purchase and continued purchases of the game) are now at a severe disadvantage.

This is a massive attack on players who champion the RPG aspect of the game.

Just because Subclassing gets around the limitations of your Class doesn't mean you're required to Subclass. This game is still an enjoyable Role Playing Game even when you're not playing the meta. Play the role of your Class, and complete content the way you always have.

Pretty much nothing changes for people who don't want to Subclass, unless they're actively trying to scorepush or if they play PvP competitively. If you're chasing the meta, you already forego the roleplay aspect of your playstyle (like using daggers on a mage solely because of the boost to critical chance) so the addition of Subclassing is no different.

Apart from the fact that their class (and others) are getting hammered by the nerf sledge hammer. More than a bit of a problem methinks. I suppose it is part of the "I'm alright Jack" syndrome.

Yes, Classes are getting nerfed for a feature that some players refuse to use. Classes have always been nerfed, though.

People just need to substitute in skills from non-Class skill lines or use Scribing if the goal is to adapt to these nerfs without Subclassing. They could use different sets or Champion Points to get back to the point they were at before. Subclassing is not mandatory.

Folk don't have to do anything, it is not up to others to dictate to them. Folk have all paid over hard earned cash to some extent or other to play this game. Folk have dedicated loyalty and time to ZOS to play this game. Folk don't deserve disrespect from ZOS (and whoever else), because they prefer to play the game they love, as they always have. It is up to ZOS to balance this game before it goes live, to make it fair to all, however long it takes. It is only right.

SilverBride

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Yes, Classes are getting nerfed for a feature that some players refuse to use. Classes have always been nerfed, though.

Nerfed, not rendered unusable.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

People just need to substitute in skills from non-Class skill lines or use Scribing if the goal is to adapt to these nerfs without Subclassing. They could use different sets or Champion Points to get back to the point they were at before. Subclassing is not mandatory.

What Champion points will make my no pet Sorcerer build viable again?

sans-culottes

SilverBride wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Yes, Classes are getting nerfed for a feature that some players refuse to use. Classes have always been nerfed, though.

Nerfed, not rendered unusable.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

People just need to substitute in skills from non-Class skill lines or use Scribing if the goal is to adapt to these nerfs without Subclassing. They could use different sets or Champion Points to get back to the point they were at before. Subclassing is not mandatory.

What Champion points will make my no pet Sorcerer build viable again?

None of them. But that’s the trick, isn’t it? When the system reshapes the viability of your build, opting out isn’t much of a choice. Instead, it’s a concession. You’re not technically being forced, you’re just being nudged until the old playstyle collapses.

Anumaril

Same! Can't wait to see the game finally lean into TES' classless identity. This'll easily boost the replayability for me by a lot being able to explore all different combinations and choose the best fantasy for my character.

SilverBride wrote: »

I will not subclass on any of my characters.

Ok

FortheloveofKrist

Every time they make a major change, I read the forums and it sounds like the sky is falling (while the real world is actually falling apart).

Then I play and have a ton of fun adjusting whatever changes have been made. Even with toons that I have given an identity and backstory.

So yeah, I'm totally excited for subclassing, with all the good and bad that may come with it.

old_scopie1945

Meridiano wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

It will be a crying shame if this goes live and pure builds are not compensated for being devastated by the nerf hammer.

I don't think pure builds will become unplayable, you should be still able to do normals, and normals are enough for RPing if that's what you want in ESO. Normals and vets have no difference in plot, storytelling, books you can find, etc. If you want high-end equip or achievements, you automatically leave the "RPing players" category, and others begin to expect high-end skills from you. I find this fair, to be honest. Play as you want - in normals, sure.

No that's not right. Their are various reasons why people want to preserve pure builds. What you suggest is the most basic level, a lot of people will still want to play harder gameplay with their old builds. Some characters have builds that are loved, some builds will be hard to replace. The nerf hammer may limit them to the most basic gaming level.

Myself, am not aversely anti Subclassing, but I have characters who have pure builds I want to keep, and still play the same content. I am not a great fan of the Pet Sorc. which may be a no no with the changes to that class. My Frost Mage lass may be at risk due nerfs to the Warden class. She uses elements from that class along with a scribing skill. I am also having great fun with a no skill build. I do love scribing, which I feel may be left in the shade now, after only a year.

That being said, I am not a dedicated follower of pure class builds, but they still have a place and need to stay relevant. There are probably numerous reasons why people like to keep pure skills relevant. So to pigeon hole it, is not the whole story. Therefore pure skills should not be put in the dust bin of history.

SkaiFaith

I'd wait to see PTS week 4 before saying I'm happy but I'm so pumped I already made THE build for my chars on console live server - still a long wait but at least I'm glad I'll be able to have the skills I wanted with the colour I wanted: everything will be blue (Not min/maxed but fun).

old_scopie1945

sans-culottes wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Ah yes, the famous Elder Scrolls classes—like “Nightblade” or “Warden”—all perfectly aligned with the lore’s rigorous taxonomy of magical schools and martial disciplines. Truly nothing says authentic TES experience like Necromantic skills tethering casters to corpses. Remind me again which book in the Arcane University syllabus covered bear summoning?

If “pure classes” are so foreign to the Elder Scrolls, then it’s curious that what you’re proposing isn’t a return to Elder Scrolls’ flexible skill system, but instead a justification for keeping the current MMO class constraints and weakening their structure just enough to allow a mechanical collage. That’s not liberation. It’s just eating the cake and denying there ever was a recipe.

Cakes, recipes, I didn't know Gordon Ramsey contributed to the ESO Forums. BTW Gordon, I think your Fish and Chips are rubbish, you get better at our local chippy.

What kind of sandwich are you?

Egg Banjo, with lashings of HP sauce. Along with a strong mug of Rosie Lee, standard NATO. Top nosh.

BasP

SilverBride wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Yes, Classes are getting nerfed for a feature that some players refuse to use. Classes have always been nerfed, though.

Nerfed, not rendered unusable.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

People just need to substitute in skills from non-Class skill lines or use Scribing if the goal is to adapt to these nerfs without Subclassing. They could use different sets or Champion Points to get back to the point they were at before. Subclassing is not mandatory.

What Champion points will make my no pet Sorcerer build viable again?

Unusable might be a bit of an overstatement. As far as I can tell, a pure non-pet Sorcerer build on the PTS currently has 5% less Max Stamina and Magicka than before, and Bound Armaments deals 10% less damage. Those are noticeable changes, but they don't make a non-pet Sorcerer unplayable.

That said, I do understand the frustration, and I’m hoping the Sorcerer (as well as other classes with underperforming skill lines) gets some love in the week 4 patch. These adjustments should be about creating more options, not making long-standing playstyles feel left behind.

DenverRalphy

SilverBride wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Yes, Classes are getting nerfed for a feature that some players refuse to use. Classes have always been nerfed, though.

Nerfed, not rendered unusable.

Dunno I'd say Unusable. But definitely at a lesser than current performance level.

sans-culottes

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Ah yes, the famous Elder Scrolls classes—like “Nightblade” or “Warden”—all perfectly aligned with the lore’s rigorous taxonomy of magical schools and martial disciplines. Truly nothing says authentic TES experience like Necromantic skills tethering casters to corpses. Remind me again which book in the Arcane University syllabus covered bear summoning?

If “pure classes” are so foreign to the Elder Scrolls, then it’s curious that what you’re proposing isn’t a return to Elder Scrolls’ flexible skill system, but instead a justification for keeping the current MMO class constraints and weakening their structure just enough to allow a mechanical collage. That’s not liberation. It’s just eating the cake and denying there ever was a recipe.

Cakes, recipes, I didn't know Gordon Ramsey contributed to the ESO Forums. BTW Gordon, I think your Fish and Chips are rubbish, you get better at our local chippy.

What kind of sandwich are you?

Egg Banjo, with lashings of HP sauce. Along with a strong mug of Rosie Lee, standard NATO. Top nosh.

I was hoping you’d say a chip butty. I just love that term.

Twohothardware

What's funny is that most who are worrying about not being able to play their class without subclassing will likely notice little to no difference when Update 46 comes out. The nerfs to a few class skills and passives are paper nerfs as in your DPS on paper drops 5%. These aren't nerfs that are so big suddenly content you were beating before can't be cleared.

Unless you're doing trifecta hard trials runs or playing PvP these nerfs will have little to no impact on you and those types of players that are doing trifecta hard trials runs and PvP want every advantage they can get and will use subclassing.

randconfig

Also excited, love the creativity it enables and even more themes for builds like an elementist, full summoner, and so on.

I really struggle to empathize with the people fearmongering about the system, there's just no good argument against it.

sans-culottes

randconfig wrote: »

Also excited, love the creativity it enables and even more themes for builds like an elementist, full summoner, and so on.

I really struggle to empathize with the people fearmongering about the system, there's just no good argument against it.

If you “really struggle to empathize,” then that might say more about you than the arguments being made. Nobody is “fearmongering” because people can make an elementalist cosplay build. The issue is structural: subclassing, as implemented, destabilizes class identity, pressures players into homogenized metas, and undermines balance that was already tenuous.

People aren’t asking for your empathy. They’re pointing out that if the only viable way to keep up is to abandon your class kit for cherry-picked outsider skills, then maybe the system isn’t as creative or optional as it’s being sold.

randconfig

sans-culottes wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

Also excited, love the creativity it enables and even more themes for builds like an elementist, full summoner, and so on.

I really struggle to empathize with the people fearmongering about the system, there's just no good argument against it.

If you “really struggle to empathize,” then that might say more about you than the arguments being made. Nobody is “fearmongering” because people can make an elementalist cosplay build. The issue is structural: subclassing, as implemented, destabilizes class identity, pressures players into homogenized metas, and undermines balance that was already tenuous.

People aren’t asking for your empathy. They’re pointing out that if the only viable way to keep up is to abandon your class kit for cherry-picked outsider skills, then maybe the system isn’t as creative or optional as it’s being sold.

"destabilizes class identity", lol no because you can just not swap your skill lines. That's a poor argument.

"pressures players into homogenized metas", you mean like the no class skills meta builds that currently exist, the oaken sorc heavy attack build, or arcanist beam build? That's also a poor argument.

"undermines balance that was already tenuous", every change has the potential to shake balance, that's just the nature of every MMO game. If nothing ever changed, no one would play the game. Again, another poor argument.

That's why I struggle to empathize, the arguments are just vibes and hyperbole.

cyclonus11

I am excited about subclassing, but pure class builds should still be competitive and viable. Not a fan of nerfing them - that just looks like they're trying to force people to use the new system, which is not necessary.

Daoin

i could write a book 'the nightblade that wanted to be a templar' or 'conan the caregiver'

sans-culottes

randconfig wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

Also excited, love the creativity it enables and even more themes for builds like an elementist, full summoner, and so on.

I really struggle to empathize with the people fearmongering about the system, there's just no good argument against it.

If you “really struggle to empathize,” then that might say more about you than the arguments being made. Nobody is “fearmongering” because people can make an elementalist cosplay build. The issue is structural: subclassing, as implemented, destabilizes class identity, pressures players into homogenized metas, and undermines balance that was already tenuous.

People aren’t asking for your empathy. They’re pointing out that if the only viable way to keep up is to abandon your class kit for cherry-picked outsider skills, then maybe the system isn’t as creative or optional as it’s being sold.

"destabilizes class identity", lol no because you can just not swap your skill lines. That's a poor argument.

"pressures players into homogenized metas", you mean like the no class skills meta builds that currently exist, the oaken sorc heavy attack build, or arcanist beam build? That's also a poor argument.

"undermines balance that was already tenuous", every change has the potential to shake balance, that's just the nature of every MMO game. If nothing ever changed, no one would play the game. Again, another poor argument.

That's why I struggle to empathize, the arguments are just vibes and hyperbole.

When someone starts by dismissing structural critique as “vibes,” it’s usually a sign they’ve run out of actual counterarguments.

No one claimed you are forced to swap class lines. The issue isn’t personal compulsion; it’s systemic design. When subclassing introduces clear performance advantages, the incentive structure shifts. Choosing to remain “pure” becomes a self-imposed handicap. That’s not choice. That’s coercion by design.

And yes, homogenization already exists. Subclassing doesn’t solve that. It entrenches it. Opening every class kit to every player risks flattening identity even further, replacing archetypes with flavorless stat sticks optimized for parse culture. If the only builds that remain viable are cobbled together from whatever parses best, then the entire concept of class fantasy becomes vestigial.

Balance volatility is not a justification. It is a caution. If the current system is tenuous, then throwing open the gates without safeguards is less “innovation” and more negligence.

But you’re right about one thing: it’s not about empathy. It’s about analysis, which, unlike vibes, requires actually engaging the argument.

licenturion

sans-culottes wrote: »

And yes, homogenization already exists. Subclassing doesn’t solve that. It entrenches it. Opening every class kit to every player risks flattening identity even further, replacing archetypes with flavorless stat sticks optimized for parse culture. If the only builds that remain viable are cobbled together from whatever parses best, then the entire concept of class fantasy becomes vestigial.

I think this is a non issue for min/max and high end players. They have a fully levelled toon of every class anyway.

Since subclassing is just another click in the armory I am fairly certain these kind of players will always have the most optimal build of the month available at all times.

ZOS said it themselves multiple times in their videos. Subclassing target group is for people who don't want to make a character of every class but experience the whole world and all skills on 1 character.

Kevin said already that the first giant patch of combat changes are for Monday next week. So I don't see why this army of 10 need to clobber down every thread that shows a hint of excitement in subclassing with the same arguments over and over. Post all the broken builds you found on the PTS on the forum or send them in a bug report to ZOS if you want to help balance things.

old_scopie1945

sans-culottes wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Ah yes, the famous Elder Scrolls classes—like “Nightblade” or “Warden”—all perfectly aligned with the lore’s rigorous taxonomy of magical schools and martial disciplines. Truly nothing says authentic TES experience like Necromantic skills tethering casters to corpses. Remind me again which book in the Arcane University syllabus covered bear summoning?

If “pure classes” are so foreign to the Elder Scrolls, then it’s curious that what you’re proposing isn’t a return to Elder Scrolls’ flexible skill system, but instead a justification for keeping the current MMO class constraints and weakening their structure just enough to allow a mechanical collage. That’s not liberation. It’s just eating the cake and denying there ever was a recipe.

Cakes, recipes, I didn't know Gordon Ramsey contributed to the ESO Forums. BTW Gordon, I think your Fish and Chips are rubbish, you get better at our local chippy.

What kind of sandwich are you?

Egg Banjo, with lashings of HP sauce. Along with a strong mug of Rosie Lee, standard NATO. Top nosh.

I was hoping you’d say a chip butty. I just love that term.

Nothing wrong with the old chip butty, again with HP sauce. Best with chips from the chippy is my recommendation. Less chance of setting the house on fire. Again with a steaming mug of strong Rosie. Strong enough to stand your spoon up straight, milk and sugar to taste.

sans-culottes

licenturion wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

And yes, homogenization already exists. Subclassing doesn’t solve that. It entrenches it. Opening every class kit to every player risks flattening identity even further, replacing archetypes with flavorless stat sticks optimized for parse culture. If the only builds that remain viable are cobbled together from whatever parses best, then the entire concept of class fantasy becomes vestigial.

I think this is a non issue for min/max and high end players. They have a fully levelled toon of every class anyway.

Since subclassing is just another click in the armory I am fairly certain these kind of players will always have the most optimal build of the month available at all times.

ZOS said it themselves multiple times in their videos. Subclassing target group is for people who don't want to make a character of every class but experience the whole world and all skills on 1 character.

Kevin said already that the first giant patch of combat changes are for Monday next week. So I don't see why this army of 10 need to clobber down every thread that shows a hint of excitement in subclassing with the same arguments over and over. Post all the broken builds you found on the PTS on the forum or send them in a bug report to ZOS if you want to help balance things.

You keep framing this as a problem exclusive to “an army of 10” min-maxers, but that’s a convenient dodge. The concern is not that high-end players will subclass. It’s that everyone else will feel compelled to, just to keep up.

Subclassing doesn’t broaden playstyles. It consolidates them. If performance incentives favor cherry-picking across class kits, then staying within your own becomes a handicap, not a choice. That’s not flexibility. That’s systemic pressure masquerading as freedom.

And pointing out structural issues isn’t “clobbering threads.” It’s participating in the public test process. Pretending critique is bad faith just because you don’t share the concern doesn’t make the arguments go away. It just makes yours easier to ignore.