So Excited for Subclassing!!

Pixiepumpkin · April 30

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I will not subclass on any of my characters.

Okay but classes are being nerfed. The only way to maintain your power is by subclassing. So, you might not have a choice.

You can always choose to not run content with people who require you to subclass.

I'm talking about soloing....world bosses, group dungeons, DLC public dungeons, etc...

Subclassing isn't required for that and it never will be.

Except they are nerfing the pure classes, so in order to have the same power as before (or more), subclassing is not optional. Look what nerfs they have already done on PTS.

Nerfs happen all the time, even way before Subclassing was in the works. Our abilities were nerfed and we got around just fine.

The difference is that players who desire to play their class, as a class to be played (which for many of us is a primary contributing factor in the purchase and continued purchases of the game) are now at a severe disadvantage.

This is a massive attack on players who champion the RPG aspect of the game.

Just because Subclassing gets around the limitations of your Class doesn't mean you're required to Subclass. This game is still an enjoyable Role Playing Game even when you're not playing the meta. Play the role of your Class, and complete content the way you always have.

Pretty much nothing changes for people who don't want to Subclass, unless they're actively trying to scorepush or if they play PvP competitively. If you're chasing the meta, you already forego the roleplay aspect of your playstyle (like using daggers on a mage solely because of the boost to critical chance) so the addition of Subclassing is no different.

Have you not paid attention to the PTS? Core classes are being nerfed across the board to facilitate sub-classing.

No one likes to play a weak class. This has been proven time and time again for the better part of 25 years. Remember last year when they nerfed arcanists because stamina was doing insane damage....well the nerf also affected magicka arcanist, which was LITERALLY in the middle of all rankings. Nothing even remotely to write home about. The nerf took that middle position and dropped the spec to utter garbage.

I have not touched him since then. I don't even have my mounts all the way leveled because he is pointless to play.

They just did the same thing to Sorcs, which I main right now, actually MULTIPLE sorcs.

The idea that I can "still play my way" is ridiculous.

Pixiepumpkin · April 30

sans-culottes wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Yes, Classes are getting nerfed for a feature that some players refuse to use. Classes have always been nerfed, though.

Nerfed, not rendered unusable.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

People just need to substitute in skills from non-Class skill lines or use Scribing if the goal is to adapt to these nerfs without Subclassing. They could use different sets or Champion Points to get back to the point they were at before. Subclassing is not mandatory.

What Champion points will make my no pet Sorcerer build viable again?

None of them. But that’s the trick, isn’t it? When the system reshapes the viability of your build, opting out isn’t much of a choice. Instead, it’s a concession. You’re not technically being forced, you’re just being nudged until the old playstyle collapses.

New customers spend money, old customers already spent it. I think I see where this is going.

NoSoup · April 30

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This will ruin my Characters' identities and I will not participate in it.

Well thats the great thing about it, you don't have to if you don't want to.....

That’s actually 100% false if you participate in end game group content where performance matters.

Well if you use that retoric then "playing your characters the way you want to" is already impossible, so the argument is a moo.

licenturion · April 30

sans-culottes wrote: »

And pointing out structural issues isn’t “clobbering threads.” It’s participating in the public test process. Pretending critique is bad faith just because you don’t share the concern doesn’t make the arguments go away. It just makes yours easier to ignore.

There is a PTS forum with feedback threads about balance and bugs that are actively being used for gather feedback. Pointing out the same arguments in the general forums every time shows some excitement will not fix your problems.

So since you like numbers so much...how many subclassed builds or broken class builds have you actively tested and submitted already in the PTS forum or as bug report that are not working as indented or give problems? What content gave these issues? Or was it a combination with specific sets?

sans-culottes · April 30

licenturion wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

And pointing out structural issues isn’t “clobbering threads.” It’s participating in the public test process. Pretending critique is bad faith just because you don’t share the concern doesn’t make the arguments go away. It just makes yours easier to ignore.

There is a PTS forum with feedback threads about balance and bugs that are actively being used for gather feedback. Pointing out the same arguments in the general forums every time shows some excitement will not fix your problems.

So since you like numbers so much...how many subclassed builds or broken class builds have you actively tested and submitted already in the PTS forum or as bug report that are not working as indented or give problems? What content gave these issues? Or was it a combination with specific sets?

You seem more concerned with silencing critique than addressing it.

This isn’t about whether someone filled out the right form or posted in the right subforum. It’s about raising structural concerns with the system itself—concerns that remain unaddressed no matter how many bug reports get filed. Asking for a numbered list of submissions is just an attempt to disqualify criticism without engaging with its substance.

If you genuinely believe that feedback is only valid when confined to the PTS subforum, then it’s curious you’re spending so much time trying to police this one.

ADarklore · April 30

It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.

As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".

Rohamad_Ali · May 1

I've played with most of the same sets since CP was introduced and will not be frightened of this change. We already have a broken pvp game. You can't break broken. Some will stay and some will go as always.

nbksaske · May 1

I'm excited for subclassing! The idea of streaking upto an enemy and start jabbing while waiting for sub assault to pop just sounds fun to me.

Pixiepumpkin · May 1

ADarklore wrote: »

It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.

As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".

except that the population IS in decline. I have had a hard time selling patterns for 50 gold lately. During prime time hours yesterday I waited in Skingrad to do a boss daily for 45 minutes. No one showed up. I asked in chat, no one responded, I started a group finder and no one joined.

Bwtween Light No Fire coming out possibly this year, WoW implementing Housing I think in the 3rd quarter, survival RPG's fulfilling the creative gap like Enshrouded, Runescale Dragonwilds, Valheim etc and ESO implemeting sub-classing which decimates class identity (a core reason a LOT of us are here, the RPG element). There may be little reason to continue spending time in ESO.

This, on top of the OBVIOUS decline of the ESO playerbase I think its a darn good call for those saying "the sky is falling".

Cardhwion · May 1

SpiritKitten wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This will ruin my Characters' identities and I will not participate in it.

So here is the unfortunate truth. ESO is the only realistic-looking MMO right now, which is the only kind I want to play. So as I have no choice, I will adapt with a new build and change my playstyle. You also must either adapt to the devs constantly changing the game, or play something else. You are still here after AWA and all the rest. Just adapt. Buddha says the only constant in life is change.

To be brutally honest: the ESO Devs are fairly tame when it comes to these changes. In many MMOs you would regularly change what class you play, because the patches shift the Meta around. I had a Beastmaster Hunter and Ret Pala in WoW and from "top of the food chain" to "bottom of the barrel" saw all situations. Once they totally ruined my hunter by re-tooling the entire class.

ESO usually works in a range that does not hurt the average player too much and comes only into play for high-end content.

Cardhwion · May 1

ValarMorghulis1896 wrote: »

So why do you even have to choose a class when creating your character? That won't matter any more soon.
And the open world (and most of PVE) will be even simpler (and therefore more boring) than it is now.
And all because ZOS can't balance the existing classes...

I chose a class because the game forces me to, classes do not really fit TES and in ESO they were a pandering to the MMO crowd.

Dino-Jr · May 1

Im looking forward to it for sure but after my time on PTS I now have legitimate concerns about non-sub classed builds I hope the devs are planning to deal with less bluntly.

I think over time a variety of class skill lines are going to get pretty significant reductions to their passive bonuses and best skills out of necessity. What we see on PTS so far is just the beginning after this goes live even more class skill lines will get reduced down based on how they are used by other classes.

I am hopeful that over the last two weeks the devs have come up with a solution to the ‘feeling’ that some pure class characters are semi randomly losing flexibility and capability. There are spots that it feels like some classes are being forced to share and losing something fun in the process.

There are subclass builds I 100% look forward to experimenting with but there are changes like whats been done to sorc, dk, nightblade and Templar target caps that feel really bad for existing builds that werent exactly causing major issues previously and wouldnt after sub classing if they had a way to separate skill/passive stats when used via subclass vs not.

Being excited is good but right now its absolutely more important to share useful feedback with the devs on what this change ‘feels’ like so they can stick the landing here.

licenturion · May 1

sans-culottes wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

And pointing out structural issues isn’t “clobbering threads.” It’s participating in the public test process. Pretending critique is bad faith just because you don’t share the concern doesn’t make the arguments go away. It just makes yours easier to ignore.

There is a PTS forum with feedback threads about balance and bugs that are actively being used for gather feedback. Pointing out the same arguments in the general forums every time shows some excitement will not fix your problems.

So since you like numbers so much...how many subclassed builds or broken class builds have you actively tested and submitted already in the PTS forum or as bug report that are not working as indented or give problems? What content gave these issues? Or was it a combination with specific sets?

You seem more concerned with silencing critique than addressing it.

This isn’t about whether someone filled out the right form or posted in the right subforum. It’s about raising structural concerns with the system itself—concerns that remain unaddressed no matter how many bug reports get filed. Asking for a numbered list of submissions is just an attempt to disqualify criticism without engaging with its substance.

If you genuinely believe that feedback is only valid when confined to the PTS subforum, then it’s curious you’re spending so much time trying to police this one.

Not all. But I have all the info I needed to know. You are just giving feedback based on a few outlier cases people have found and repeat those instead of coming up with your own examples or helping testing on the PTS (because so seem extremely passionate about this topic)

Anyway I think we two are at a dead end discussing this and I will stop responding to the topic. The system is coming out anyway no matter how many post we make. You can't stop it

sans-culottes · May 1

licenturion wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

And pointing out structural issues isn’t “clobbering threads.” It’s participating in the public test process. Pretending critique is bad faith just because you don’t share the concern doesn’t make the arguments go away. It just makes yours easier to ignore.

There is a PTS forum with feedback threads about balance and bugs that are actively being used for gather feedback. Pointing out the same arguments in the general forums every time shows some excitement will not fix your problems.

So since you like numbers so much...how many subclassed builds or broken class builds have you actively tested and submitted already in the PTS forum or as bug report that are not working as indented or give problems? What content gave these issues? Or was it a combination with specific sets?

You seem more concerned with silencing critique than addressing it.

This isn’t about whether someone filled out the right form or posted in the right subforum. It’s about raising structural concerns with the system itself—concerns that remain unaddressed no matter how many bug reports get filed. Asking for a numbered list of submissions is just an attempt to disqualify criticism without engaging with its substance.

If you genuinely believe that feedback is only valid when confined to the PTS subforum, then it’s curious you’re spending so much time trying to police this one.

Not all. But I have all the info I needed to know. You are just giving feedback based on a few outlier cases people have found and repeat those instead of coming up with your own examples or helping testing on the PTS (because so seem extremely passionate about this topic)

Anyway I think we two are at a dead end discussing this and I will stop responding to the topic. The system is coming out anyway no matter how many post we make. You can't stop it

You say you’ve seen enough to dismiss the criticism, but everything in your response suggests the opposite. You’re still here, still replying, still trying to shut down the conversation under the guise of disengaging from it.

This isn’t about one or two edge cases. It’s about a design shift that affects the entire structure of the game. If you find that uncomfortable, then deflecting with “you can’t stop it

” doesn’t make it any more coherent. It just confirms that critique makes you uneasy.

No one’s trying to “stop” anything. We’re just pointing out what it actually is.

LalMirchi · May 1

While I raised my half full cup of joy for scribing my cup runneth over with joyous excitement for Subclassing. I have steadfastly avoided PTS as I want to experience this live.

After my disappointment with AWA I've decided that the best approach to this game is adaptability. In the raging typhoon storms the bamboo bends but doesn't break while the sturdy oak tree is uprooted.

Warhawke_80 · May 1

SilverBride wrote: »

I will not subclass on any of my characters.

I personally can't wait for subclassing TES has always been about freedom, and Mixing some choice warden abilities with Nightblade awesomeness is going to be badass...sure you don't have to participate but IMHO your hamstringing yourself for no good reason...but hey you do you.

Daoin · May 1

my nightblade and warden are 2 totally different entities with 2 completely different agendas, lifestyles and skills and approach whatever i play them for in drastically different ways, thier skills do not mix and never shall. cheaping out on each others skill is out of the question for any extra dps. that being said i can see a border case where with my final character slot i will make a subclass to fill a role that is completely an artificial one. i'll know exactly what has changed with each of my toons once the update goes live and go on with life, just like every other update in history and probably enjoy the subclassing that way still somewhere in the seedier side of eso town as not to upset the OG toons

this definition: While its definition has changed slightly through the years, at its core, calling someone an OG is an expression of deep respect or admiration for someone. It can refer to someone trailblazing or innovative, such as an artist who popularized a musical trend or a fashion style. This is the closest to the term's initial definition of being "original" or "first" at something.

in a way if eso was as populated as it used to be it would actually be a good thing for original toons, i can lots of guilds popping back up with the original theme even some rp ones. that would be nice i have not seen a good variety of rp guilds to join in eso for years and years and as i understand things, stuff is actually being done to improve that side of things

SilverBride · May 1

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I will not subclass on any of my characters.

I personally can't wait for subclassing TES has always been about freedom, and Mixing some choice warden abilities with Nightblade awesomeness is going to be badass...sure you don't have to participate but IMHO your hamstringing yourself for no good reason...but hey you do you.

I don't consider keeping my Character's identities intact as no good reason.

All my characters have their own personalities that are reflected in their chosen classes. They all have their own homes decorated to reflect who they are. My no pet Sorcerer has been the Matriarch of my characters for 11 years now. I will not destroy that for something I don't even want.

gamma71 · May 1

I'm excited about subclasses then I can concentrate on one character and switch around as needed without the feeling of wasting my time redoing everything. Already have 50 of everything only play my warden now it will be much more fun experimenting with builds.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · May 1

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Purely restrictive classes are absolutely foreign. Did you know a Nightblade in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim can summon daedra? Did you know a summoner could cloak? A holy knight summon a skeleton, or a necromancer use the Blazing Spear flame-damage spell? All classes do (and did) in Oblivion was let certain skills start higher and advance faster; the extra skill point costs for off-class skill lines in ESO is actually quite a good example of following that model.

Foreign to who? Almost every MMO I've played had class systems.

Foreign to TES.

SilverBride wrote: »

And this is not Morrowind or Oblivion or Skyrim. It is ESO and has had classes since it's beginning. If they wanted it to emulate those other games it should have been established that way from the start, not 11 years later after we have invested a lot into developing our Characters with classes.

I'm sorry you hate change, but I for one am thankful they are endeavoring to undo poor past decisions instead of being beholden to them.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

This isn't a TES single player game. It is ESO and was released with a Class system and has been this way for 11 years now. It should not be pulled apart into something unrecognizable.

I don't think TESO will become unrecognizable just because of subclassing, nor do I think it should stay completely unchanged. If it had only been out for 9 years, would subclassing be bad? 5 years? 1 year? 6 months? "It's been this way since launch" isn't a great argument - after all, Oblivion had potato faces for 20 years - should they have left them in the Remaster?

Single player vs. multi-player is a non-sequitur unless you can connect it back to subclassing; there are class-less MMOs and class-ful single-player games.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Pure Classes should remain as they are and their skill lines should not be weakened to accommodate a playstyle many of us don't even want.

Pure classes should be destroyed because they represented a playstyle foreign to the Elder Scrolls that many of us TES fans don't want.

Classes aren't foreign to The Elder Scrolls games. Skyrim is the only TES game where players didn't have classes.

Purely restrictive classes are absolutely foreign. Did you know a Nightblade in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim can summon daedra? Did you know a summoner could cloak? A holy knight summon a skeleton, or a necromancer use the Blazing Spear flame-damage spell? All classes do (and did) in Oblivion was let certain skills start higher and advance faster; the extra skill point costs for off-class skill lines in ESO is actually quite a good example of following that model.

Yes I'm aware of how the classes worked in the TES games. However those were built for single plalyer purposes. Single Player mechanics do not translate well to multiplayer.

Why not, in this case?
"Single player mechanics do not translate well to multiplayer" isn't an explanation or an argument. It's a thought-terminating axiom.

We should call it the Axiom of Remove Everything From Multiplayer:
"If a mechanic existed in some form in a single-player game, it cannot be abstracted into a multi-player game in any form."

It follows from this axiom:
You could hit people with swords in Oblivion; guess hitting people with swords doesn't translate well to multiplayer. Huh, you could use spells and ride horses too. Better throw those out, since mechanics can't translate well from single player games to multiplayer ones!

SilverBride wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I will not subclass on any of my characters.

I personally can't wait for subclassing TES has always been about freedom, and Mixing some choice warden abilities with Nightblade awesomeness is going to be badass...sure you don't have to participate but IMHO your hamstringing yourself for no good reason...but hey you do you.

I don't consider keeping my Character's identities intact as no good reason.

All my characters have their own personalities that are reflected in their chosen classes. They all have their own homes decorated to reflect who they are. My no pet Sorcerer has been the Matriarch of my characters for 11 years now. I will not destroy that for something I don't even want.

Good heavens this is dramatic; it's like saying "I will never see the beautiful view on my drive to work because they built a highway that gets me there more efficiently!"

You don't *have* to be maximally efficient. It follows from this that you don't *have* to multiclass.

So don't! It's fine. It's awesome!

Pixiepumpkin · May 1

LalMirchi wrote: »

While I raised my half full cup of joy for scribing my cup runneth over with joyous excitement for Subclassing. I have steadfastly avoided PTS as I want to experience this live.

After my disappointment with AWA I've decided that the best approach to this game is adaptability. In the raging typhoon storms the bamboo bends but doesn't break while the sturdy oak tree is uprooted.

And yet the best wood for making furniture is Oak.

SilverBride · May 1

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Foreign to who? Almost every MMO I've played had class systems.

Foreign to TES.

SilverBride wrote: »

And this is not Morrowind or Oblivion or Skyrim. It is ESO and has had classes since it's beginning. If they wanted it to emulate those other games it should have been established that way from the start, not 11 years later after we have invested a lot into developing our Characters with classes.

I'm sorry you hate change, but I for one am thankful they are endeavoring to undo poor past decisions instead of being beholden to them.

I don't hate change. I hate change that ruins the way we have played for 11 years.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · May 1

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Foreign to who? Almost every MMO I've played had class systems.

Foreign to TES.

SilverBride wrote: »

And this is not Morrowind or Oblivion or Skyrim. It is ESO and has had classes since it's beginning. If they wanted it to emulate those other games it should have been established that way from the start, not 11 years later after we have invested a lot into developing our Characters with classes.

I'm sorry you hate change, but I for one am thankful they are endeavoring to undo poor past decisions instead of being beholden to them.

I don't hate change. I hate change that ruins the way we have played for 11 years.

"Ruins" in what specific ways that are measurably distinct from ways the game has changed things in the past?

Rip Blinding Flashes, the best Templar skill.

Pixiepumpkin · May 1

...

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Foreign to who? Almost every MMO I've played had class systems.

Foreign to TES.

SilverBride wrote: »

And this is not Morrowind or Oblivion or Skyrim. It is ESO and has had classes since it's beginning. If they wanted it to emulate those other games it should have been established that way from the start, not 11 years later after we have invested a lot into developing our Characters with classes.

I'm sorry you hate change, but I for one am thankful they are endeavoring to undo poor past decisions instead of being beholden to them.

I don't hate change. I hate change that ruins the way we have played for 11 years.

Exactly. Change is constant, but when "change" is a design decision, there are a number of paths that can be taken.

Changing the game to lose class identity, to nerf pure classes to facilitate the implementation of subclasses is not a good change.

ZOS should have gone the other direction and doubled down on class identity.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · May 1

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

...

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Foreign to who? Almost every MMO I've played had class systems.

Foreign to TES.

SilverBride wrote: »

And this is not Morrowind or Oblivion or Skyrim. It is ESO and has had classes since it's beginning. If they wanted it to emulate those other games it should have been established that way from the start, not 11 years later after we have invested a lot into developing our Characters with classes.

I'm sorry you hate change, but I for one am thankful they are endeavoring to undo poor past decisions instead of being beholden to them.

I don't hate change. I hate change that ruins the way we have played for 11 years.

Exactly. Change is constant, but when "change" is a design decision, there are a number of paths that can be taken.

Changing the game to lose class identity, to nerf pure classes to facilitate the implementation of subclasses is not a good change.

ZOS should have gone the other direction and doubled down on class identity.

Why? What is good about class identity as opposed to any other character identity?

JemadarofCaerSalis · May 1

I do agree that some single player mechanics don't translate well to multiplayer games, but that is also true of mechanics from MMO to MMO and single player game to single player game.

That said, I don't see why 'no class' wouldn't translate. I think MMOs having classes is probably pretty much the same reason many single player games have them. Because it simply allows players to choose something and go on and start the game more quickly, while giving them a general idea of what sort of skills they are going to be doing. It allows a broader range of people, who might not all play single player games, to be able to focus on specific skills without having them hamper themselves by trying to be a 'jack of all trades' and leveling up skills that will ultimately be useless to their build.(that can still happen, but not as much as if the average person, who doesn't necessarily come from background that includes playing games like Morrowind had access to every single skill available in the game from the start)

I have the feeling it is also easier to make things more balanced by having players choose classes rather than allowing them to choose specific skills to focus on.

I am looking forward to subclassing, because it seems like it will open up a lot of possiblities for those who aren't into the end game meta. I do not know whether it will actually be as fun as I hope (I am not on the PTS), nor do I know what the long term effects will be, but I am still excited.

I have never really liked playing multiple characters, so being able to pick and choose, at least to a limited degree, which skill lines I want to try out, without having to start a new character, to me, will be fun.

Pixiepumpkin · May 1

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

...

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Foreign to who? Almost every MMO I've played had class systems.

Foreign to TES.

SilverBride wrote: »

And this is not Morrowind or Oblivion or Skyrim. It is ESO and has had classes since it's beginning. If they wanted it to emulate those other games it should have been established that way from the start, not 11 years later after we have invested a lot into developing our Characters with classes.

I'm sorry you hate change, but I for one am thankful they are endeavoring to undo poor past decisions instead of being beholden to them.

I don't hate change. I hate change that ruins the way we have played for 11 years.

Exactly. Change is constant, but when "change" is a design decision, there are a number of paths that can be taken.

Changing the game to lose class identity, to nerf pure classes to facilitate the implementation of subclasses is not a good change.

ZOS should have gone the other direction and doubled down on class identity.

Why? What is good about class identity as opposed to any other character identity?

1. A characters class and whatever else identifies the character are not mutually exclusive, so a contrast/comparison between them makes no sense.
2. Classes are "professions". In the real world it would be your job.
3. Classes offer nonverbal communication to other players. I should not have to expand on this, it gets tiresome educating people about design.
4. Classes are a core aspect of RPG design and have been for over 50 years.
5. The game was sold with classes. I paid to play classes. I paid to know what class I am playing against, along with millions of others.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · May 1

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

...

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Foreign to who? Almost every MMO I've played had class systems.

Foreign to TES.

SilverBride wrote: »

And this is not Morrowind or Oblivion or Skyrim. It is ESO and has had classes since it's beginning. If they wanted it to emulate those other games it should have been established that way from the start, not 11 years later after we have invested a lot into developing our Characters with classes.

I'm sorry you hate change, but I for one am thankful they are endeavoring to undo poor past decisions instead of being beholden to them.

I don't hate change. I hate change that ruins the way we have played for 11 years.

Exactly. Change is constant, but when "change" is a design decision, there are a number of paths that can be taken.

Changing the game to lose class identity, to nerf pure classes to facilitate the implementation of subclasses is not a good change.

ZOS should have gone the other direction and doubled down on class identity.

Why? What is good about class identity as opposed to any other character identity?

1. A characters class and whatever else identifies the character are not mutually exclusive, so a contrast/comparison between them makes no sense.

False on the first one - I have made 3 copies of the same character because skills from 3 classes made sense for her, and I ended up having to compromise and reduce her identity to a single class, and handwave away why she couldn't cloak with shadows or summon dark tendrils.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

2. Classes are "professions". In the real world it would be your job.

My job encourages me to seek out and expand my horizons, it does not prevent me from doing so. Aspirationally, I hope to be best at my job, but not solely constrained to it. People and characters are more than their jobs.

Classes are nothing like jobs. I have never heard a truck driver say "sorry, I can't come over and help you build your shed, I took Truck Driver class instead of Construction Engineer." Heck, there's an old Boomer meme from Dilbert that the garbage man was the best mathematician/engineer in the cast.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

3. Classes offer nonverbal communication to other players. I should not have to expand on this, it gets tiresome educating people about design.

You don't have to educate me about this. I know it communicates information to other players. I just don't find that communication alone worth it (since so far it's the only point you have that is right).

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

4. Classes are a core aspect of RPG design and have been for over 50 years.

Classless RPGs have been and still are just as genre-defining as class-ful ones, and TES has invariably been classless in the restrictive sense (even if they have classes in the liberal sense of "things your character is best at").

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

5. The game was sold with classes. I paid to play classes. I paid to know what class I am playing against, along with millions of others.

The game also sold with veteran ranks, non-mixed-alliance PVE zones, and client-side combat calcs to help the server. Should we revert those too while we are clinging to launch-state ESO?

The only thing I agree with in your list is "communication with players that is nonverbal", which is a fine reason but not personally convincing. If you think that reason alone is enough to warrant undoing subclassing, I just can't agree - but I do agree it is a valid reason. Just not a personally convincing one.

SilverBride · May 2

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't hate change. I hate change that ruins the way we have played for 11 years.

"Ruins" in what specific ways that are measurably distinct from ways the game has changed things in the past?

Rip Blinding Flashes, the best Templar skill.

How would it be a Templar skill now if any class can use it?

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · May 2

SilverBride wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't hate change. I hate change that ruins the way we have played for 11 years.

"Ruins" in what specific ways that are measurably distinct from ways the game has changed things in the past?

Rip Blinding Flashes, the best Templar skill.

How would it be a Templar skill now if any class can use it?

Because it was a Templar skill?

Is "Circle of Protection" a not a Fighter's Guild skill just because anyone can use it?